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Has there ever been an atempt to repair the schism between Dark Jedi and Jedi in the past?
If not, do you think it could be a possibility in the future?
Not saying that the Dark Jedi should abandon their teachings in order to please the Jedi, but would it be possible for the Jedi to accept the Dark Side as alternative way of teaching Jedi?

Still I take it the Dark Jedi will have to work within some restrictions that they don't kill fellow students, or go crazy and become power hungry.
Dark Jedi teach Dark jedi students and the Jedi teach Jedi pupils.

Dark Primus wrote:Has there ever been an atempt to repair the schism between Dark Jedi and Jedi in the past?
If not, do you think it could be a possibility in the future?

It hasn't been attempted so far as I am aware. Nor does it seem likely after so many thousands of years.

Not saying that the Dark Jedi should abandon their teachings in order to please the Jedi, but would it be possible for the Jedi to accept the Dark Side as alternative way of teaching Jedi?

Again, unlikely after this long. Leaving aside how radically different (and opposed) the philosophies would be. Maybe not so much for all Dark Jedi though as for the Sith specifically.

Still I take it the Dark Jedi will have to work within some restrictions that they don't kill fellow students, or go crazy and become power hungry.

Can they really help doing so, or is a certain level of craziness/ruthlessness part of the price of using the Dark Side?

Dark Jedi teach Dark jedi students and the Jedi teach Jedi pupils.

Unlikely, for all the reasons listed above.

I've tinkered with that idea myself. It could be possible for a new organization, both the Sith and the Jedi seem to0 set on their dogma for this, seeing how much of their teachings are based on opposition to the opposite side.

Maybe a new organization centered on "grey" knights, that is, on the balance of the Force, might be willing to have students of both extremes under its wing.

As for how to avoid clashes, it would require discipline above all. As far as I've seen (no EU), the Jedi based their education on dogma, while the Sith based it on ruthless competition. Striving for an education based on specialization, with Dark Siders being the warriors, and Light Siders being the diplomats/healers/negotiators might work.

Of course, it might also depend on the politcal state of the Galaxy. A situation that calls for the Force users to form an actual fighting force might be more conducive to the use of Dark Siders than a thousand years of peace and boredom.

The Imperial Knights seem to be the closest in canon to that philosophy.

That said, repairing the rift between Jedi and Dark Jedi is a bit unrealistic - their ideologies are completely different.

Why would you even assume that Dark Jedi would want to repair the schism? And seriously, after about 4 or 5 THOUSAND years, do you think we can stop calling it a "schism"? They are just two different sets of ideologies at this point that have nothing in common other than their power source.

Dark Primus wrote:Has there ever been an atempt to repair the schism between Dark Jedi and Jedi in the past?
If not, do you think it could be a possibility in the future?
Not saying that the Dark Jedi should abandon their teachings in order to please the Jedi, but would it be possible for the Jedi to accept the Dark Side as alternative way of teaching Jedi?

Still I take it the Dark Jedi will have to work within some restrictions that they don't kill fellow students, or go crazy and become power hungry.
Dark Jedi teach Dark jedi students and the Jedi teach Jedi pupils.

First of all, the original Dark Jedi have evolved into the Sith, ideologically speaking, and their whole ideology is centered on the destruction of the Jedi, which is more than a mere schism. So long as there are Jedi and there are Sith, the Sith will try to subvert and destroy the Jedi invidually and as a whole.

Secondly, the term "Dark Jedi" is often used as an all-encompassing name for all practioners of the dark side: the Jedi who have left the Order and succumbed to the dark side, the dark side elite of the resurrected Emperor etc. Thus many "Dark Jedi" groups are not, at least not directly, tied to the Jedi and do not have any schism in their history. For example, Palpatine's dark side elite (Sedriss and his ilk) were never Jedi and they had nothing to do with the Jedi teachings; they simply followed the Emperor's will and employed the Force (and its dark side) to suit their master's purposes.

All in all, any attempt at repairing the "schism" is going to fail: the original Jedi renegades warred against their loyalist counterparts for a century before being banished and afterwards set themselves up as feudal sorcerer-overlords in their corner of the galaxy, completely surrendering any notion of servitude to the will of the Force and the population of the galaxy as a whole. The various incarnations of the Sith have very close ties to the Jedi Order (Exar Kun's Sith brotherhood; Darth Revan's Sith Empire; Lord Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness; Darth Bane's Order of the Dark Lords; etc.), but that does not mean that there would exist enough common ground for them and the Jedi to sort out their differences. This should also answer the question about the possibility of undoing the original schism in the future.

And the Jedi have had very poor experiences with inviduals and groups trying to use the dark side as "alternative way" of teaching the Jedi. The closest attempt was Brakiss's Shadow Academy and it also resulted in Brakiss's Jedi and a rogue Imperial faction attacking the main Jedi Order and resorting to kidnapping, terrorism and torture. The dark side may not necessarily corrupt physically (although there are clear examples of this happening, King Ommin of Onderon being the most notable one, and arguably Palpatine himself), but it has tremendous psychological effect and has a disturbing tendency to cause sociopathic and psychopathic tendencies among those who use the dark side regularly. And since the dark side feeds on sapients' aggression, fear and anger, it becomes a moot point in trying to curb those tendencies in Dark Jedi students. The Force adepts who teach the dark side to their students actually urge them to use those feelings in order to become more powerful. The dark side also enhances the effects of anger, rage, hatred and wrath on its users to the point that even if they don't MEAN to cross the line, they will (Ulic Qel-Droma slaying his own brother is a fine example of this).

All in all, any reconcilation between the Sith and the Jedi (or the Jedi and the Dark Jedi) is very unlikely, since it usually means either one converting to the other's point of view; the schism has happened so long ago over so fundamental differences that it cannot be repaired in any meaningful way; and actually actively teaching the dark side to students is tantamount of encouraging them to dwelling on their own frusfrations, aggressions and sociopathic tendencies and enhancing them. There is a reason why those Jedi who use the dark side often or who dismiss the Jedi philosophy concerning it have a bad habit of falling to the dark side (Darth Malak; Darth Caedus; and arguably Quinlan Vos to some extent).

Tiriol wrote:First of all, the original Dark Jedi have evolved into the Sith, ideologically speaking, and their whole ideology is centered on the destruction of the Jedi, which is more than a mere schism. So long as there are Jedi and there are Sith, the Sith will try to subvert and destroy the Jedi invidually and as a whole.

Add that the Jedi wholeheartedly return those sentiments, and the problem is squared and cubed.

The dark side may not necessarily corrupt physically (although there are clear examples of this happening, King Ommin of Onderon being the most notable one, and arguably Palpatine himself), but it has tremendous psychological effect and has a disturbing tendency to cause sociopathic and psychopathic tendencies among those who use the dark side regularly. And since the dark side feeds on sapients' aggression, fear and anger, it becomes a moot point in trying to curb those tendencies in Dark Jedi students. The Force adepts who teach the dark side to their students actually urge them to use those feelings in order to become more powerful.

This might be an overgeneralisation; some dark Jedi we see are highly erratic and dysfunctional in their behaviour, and certainly exhibit traits that would be considered psychopathic (poor impulse control, heightened need for stimulation, and so on), but other users of the Dark Side, particularly those belonging to the highly disciplined Sithian traditions, display eminent self-control (easily on par with Jedi, beyond in some cases). In the case of the Banite Sith and their derivatives, they use their "negative" emotions as "fuel" for their abilities while overall suppressing them (a sort of sublimation mechanism, to some extent). They are not so much sociopathic as thoroughly pragmatic and amoral in the pursuit of their long-term goals.

The dark side also enhances the effects of anger, rage, hatred and wrath on its users to the point that even if they don't MEAN to cross the line, they will (Ulic Qel-Droma slaying his own brother is a fine example of this).

Generally, I would agree; even Palpatine, who at his height considered himself mostly beyond emotion, fell prey to this at times (nevermind that this is due to the power of shitty KJA writing . . .). Qel-Droma and Kun were, however, under the influence of various Sith magic and drugs at that time that had adverse effects on their sanity also, so they may not be the best examples.

All in all, any reconcilation between the Sith and the Jedi (or the Jedi and the Dark Jedi) is very unlikely, since it usually means either one converting to the other's point of view; the schism has happened so long ago over so fundamental differences that it cannot be repaired in any meaningful way; and actually actively teaching the dark side to students is tantamount of encouraging them to dwelling on their own frusfrations, aggressions and sociopathic tendencies and enhancing them. There is a reason why those Jedi who use the dark side often or who dismiss the Jedi philosophy concerning it have a bad habit of falling to the dark side (Darth Malak; Darth Caedus; and arguably Quinlan Vos to some extent).

That said, there has been one prominent attempt at reconciliation, namely the apostate Jedi Vergere's influence on Luke Skywalker's reformed Jedi Order in the late NJO Era. Her teachings considered adopting Dark Side methodology in pursuit of Light Side aims, something that has also been proposed by various Sithian or pseudo-Sithian Jedi schismatics in the past (aforementioned Qel-Droma and Vos, among others). The approach as such was not new, per se, but this was the only instance I am aware of in which it gained any broader Jedi support. Of course, this theology was rejected as corrupt and misguided within a decade, as had been the original Potentium heresy in the waning days of the Old Republic.

Nevermind that Vergere's teachings resulted in the fall of Jacen Solo and a galactic civil war.

Well, that, too . . .

Darth Hoth wrote:

Tiriol wrote:First of all, the original Dark Jedi have evolved into the Sith, ideologically speaking, and their whole ideology is centered on the destruction of the Jedi, which is more than a mere schism. So long as there are Jedi and there are Sith, the Sith will try to subvert and destroy the Jedi invidually and as a whole.

Add that the Jedi wholeheartedly return those sentiments, and the problem is squared and cubed.

In a way, yes. The difference is that the Jedi have not made the destruction of the Sith as their core tenet, although they do oppose the Sith because what the Sith and their ascendancy would mean to the Jedi and even more importantly to the galaxy at large. But as you said, the problem is immense, since neither group regards the other in high esteem.

The dark side may not necessarily corrupt physically (although there are clear examples of this happening, King Ommin of Onderon being the most notable one, and arguably Palpatine himself), but it has tremendous psychological effect and has a disturbing tendency to cause sociopathic and psychopathic tendencies among those who use the dark side regularly. And since the dark side feeds on sapients' aggression, fear and anger, it becomes a moot point in trying to curb those tendencies in Dark Jedi students. The Force adepts who teach the dark side to their students actually urge them to use those feelings in order to become more powerful.

This might be an overgeneralisation; some dark Jedi we see are highly erratic and dysfunctional in their behaviour, and certainly exhibit traits that would be considered psychopathic (poor impulse control, heightened need for stimulation, and so on), but other users of the Dark Side, particularly those belonging to the highly disciplined Sithian traditions, display eminent self-control (easily on par with Jedi, beyond in some cases). In the case of the Banite Sith and their derivatives, they use their "negative" emotions as "fuel" for their abilities while overall suppressing them (a sort of sublimation mechanism, to some extent). They are not so much sociopathic as thoroughly pragmatic and amoral in the pursuit of their long-term goals.

I disagree on this point, since the Sith Lords themselves, while admittedly practicing iron self-control at least outwardly, are very much creatures of their own aggressions. Darth Sion was kept alive only through his own hate and spite, to name one example. Even more so Darth Sidious, the pinnacle of Bane's Order's evolution, who clearly looses any semblance of self-control as we would know it during his rage and fights against the Jedi (and even Darth Bane's, the Order's founder, grip on self-control was often tenious at best). Sidious is also a prime example of the Sith being sociopaths or exhibiting such tendencies to a worrisome extent, beyond mere pragmatism. He even viewed his own apprentices as tools and weapons, to be discarded when he so willed (and of course his one-time apprentice, Count Dooku, had all the classical elements of sociopathy in his personality during his time as the Sith apprentice).

All in all, any reconcilation between the Sith and the Jedi (or the Jedi and the Dark Jedi) is very unlikely, since it usually means either one converting to the other's point of view; the schism has happened so long ago over so fundamental differences that it cannot be repaired in any meaningful way; and actually actively teaching the dark side to students is tantamount of encouraging them to dwelling on their own frusfrations, aggressions and sociopathic tendencies and enhancing them. There is a reason why those Jedi who use the dark side often or who dismiss the Jedi philosophy concerning it have a bad habit of falling to the dark side (Darth Malak; Darth Caedus; and arguably Quinlan Vos to some extent).

That said, there has been one prominent attempt at reconciliation, namely the apostate Jedi Vergere's influence on Luke Skywalker's reformed Jedi Order in the late NJO Era. Her teachings considered adopting Dark Side methodology in pursuit of Light Side aims, something that has also been proposed by various Sithian or pseudo-Sithian Jedi schismatics in the past (aforementioned Qel-Droma and Vos, among others). The approach as such was not new, per se, but this was the only instance I am aware of in which it gained any broader Jedi support. Of course, this theology was rejected as corrupt and misguided within a decade, as had been the original Potentium heresy in the waning days of the Old Republic.

Vergere's philosophy was indeed rejected in the end, although it was apparently solely designed to continue the Sith traditions, although along the lines Vergere saw fit (Vergere was revealed to be a Sith or at least a Sith aspirant in the end). Although her philosophy wasn't innately evil, at least not at a casual glance, it gave just enough rope for its practioners to hang themselves, so to speak. And Vergere is not only responsible for Darth Caedus, but in a way for Darth Krayt, whom Vergere guided on his path to the dark side and the Sith traditions, at least for a while.

The problem with many of these attempts and "heretical" philosophies has been that they all seem to view the Force as something akin to a tool: even Vergere's take on the dark side (that it only exists in the hearts of those who use the Force) has echoes of this approach. The problem, if I may say so, is that the Force is more than a mere tool, which is a pretty passive object, only doing what it is "told" to do. The Force appears to be sentient from time to time (the will of the Force) and although there has always existed debate about it, even in the Jedi Order, and about how much sentience one can attribute to the Force, understanding the Force as not only something the user may affect, but also as something that may and will affect the user, is apparently the "right" way to treat the Force and to use it; as such the Potentium heresy's failing was that it discarded the notion of the dark side altogether, and even Vergere's philosophy believed that intentions were more important than anything else, which resulted in Jacen Solo starting to use more and more Force techniques and powers closely associated in history (and by their very nature) to the dark side of the Force. This one-way approach fails to take into account how the Force affects the Force-user and that the dark side is a very real and a very tangible threat, even if we don't know if it has its own will (which is also a point of debate from time to time).

Tiriol wrote:In a way, yes. The difference is that the Jedi have not made the destruction of the Sith as their core tenet, although they do oppose the Sith because what the Sith and their ascendancy would mean to the Jedi and even more importantly to the galaxy at large. But as you said, the problem is immense, since neither group regards the other in high esteem.

Not all Sith (let alone dark Jedi schismatics) had the complete destruction of the Jedi Order among their prime goals, though the Banite Sith did. The Jedi also devoted considerable effort to eradicating the Sith, wherever present and identifiable (which, of course, makes sense, given the aims of the latter movement); the prequel trilogy gives good examples, and supposedly (according to the narration in TotJ: DLotS, which may be contradicted elsewhere) the Jedi and/or the Republic performed xenocide on the Sith species as such for their association with dark Jedi renegades.

I disagree on this point, since the Sith Lords themselves, while admittedly practicing iron self-control at least outwardly, are very much creatures of their own aggressions. Darth Sion was kept alive only through his own hate and spite, to name one example. Even more so Darth Sidious, the pinnacle of Bane's Order's evolution, who clearly looses any semblance of self-control as we would know it during his rage and fights against the Jedi (and even Darth Bane's, the Order's founder, grip on self-control was often tenious at best). Sidious is also a prime example of the Sith being sociopaths or exhibiting such tendencies to a worrisome extent, beyond mere pragmatism. He even viewed his own apprentices as tools and weapons, to be discarded when he so willed (and of course his one-time apprentice, Count Dooku, had all the classical elements of sociopathy in his personality during his time as the Sith apprentice).

Following the pseudo-Nietzschean Sithian ideologies in and of itself reasonably leads one towards narcissism in most cases. To what extent this is mental degeneration induced by the Dark Side of the Force, as opposed to voluntary choice on part of the individual, is a little vaguer; if one examines a character such as Brakiss, for example, he does not come across as obviously sociopathic. The Dark Side does appear to have effects on mentality, but they tend to vary in symptoms and severity between individuals, though statistically I agree there would be a correlation.

Vergere's philosophy was indeed rejected in the end, although it was apparently solely designed to continue the Sith traditions, although along the lines Vergere saw fit (Vergere was revealed to be a Sith or at least a Sith aspirant in the end). Although her philosophy wasn't innately evil, at least not at a casual glance, it gave just enough rope for its practioners to hang themselves, so to speak. And Vergere is not only responsible for Darth Caedus, but in a way for Darth Krayt, whom Vergere guided on his path to the dark side and the Sith traditions, at least for a while.

I thought that Lumiya was only saying that to impress Jacen; has there been a retcon in some comic or on Hyperspace?

Vergere's philosophy I always took to be traditional Dark Side teachings, watered down just enough to be palatable/unrecognisable at first glance to the Jedi. The two core concepts (there being no Dark Side as such, and the ends justifying the means) match completely what Sith and dark Jedi such as Palpatine have been touting all along.

The problem with many of these attempts and "heretical" philosophies has been that they all seem to view the Force as something akin to a tool: even Vergere's take on the dark side (that it only exists in the hearts of those who use the Force) has echoes of this approach. The problem, if I may say so, is that the Force is more than a mere tool, which is a pretty passive object, only doing what it is "told" to do. The Force appears to be sentient from time to time (the will of the Force) and although there has always existed debate about it, even in the Jedi Order, and about how much sentience one can attribute to the Force, understanding the Force as not only something the user may affect, but also as something that may and will affect the user, is apparently the "right" way to treat the Force and to use it; as such the Potentium heresy's failing was that it discarded the notion of the dark side altogether, and even Vergere's philosophy believed that intentions were more important than anything else, which resulted in Jacen Solo starting to use more and more Force techniques and powers closely associated in history (and by their very nature) to the dark side of the Force. This one-way approach fails to take into account how the Force affects the Force-user and that the dark side is a very real and a very tangible threat, even if we don't know if it has its own will (which is also a point of debate from time to time).

Agreed in full.

Darth Hoth wrote:

Vergere's philosophy was indeed rejected in the end, although it was apparently solely designed to continue the Sith traditions, although along the lines Vergere saw fit (Vergere was revealed to be a Sith or at least a Sith aspirant in the end). Although her philosophy wasn't innately evil, at least not at a casual glance, it gave just enough rope for its practioners to hang themselves, so to speak. And Vergere is not only responsible for Darth Caedus, but in a way for Darth Krayt, whom Vergere guided on his path to the dark side and the Sith traditions, at least for a while.

I thought that Lumiya was only saying that to impress Jacen; has there been a retcon in some comic or on Hyperspace?

Vergere's philosophy I always took to be traditional Dark Side teachings, watered down just enough to be palatable/unrecognisable at first glance to the Jedi. The two core concepts (there being no Dark Side as such, and the ends justifying the means) match completely what Sith and dark Jedi such as Palpatine have been touting all along.

Legacy comics reveal that yes, Vergere considered herself to be a Sith and she tried to taught the future Sith Lord Darth Krayt during his imprisonment by the Yuuzhan Vong; unfortunately for her, Krayt (or rather A'Sharad Hett at that time) refused to completely accept her teachings, including Vergere's desire to uphold Bane's decrees.

Ah, all right then. That way her character makes a little more sense, at least. I imagine that Stover is pissed, though . . .