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This quote in a recent thread got me to thinking...

Darth Yoshi wrote:I don't see why it would. It would be like Lucas saying that Tatooine had three suns and a green sky. He can say it all he wants, but the actual material still overrides him.

Lucas now says (as some EU sources have said since at least 1995) that Luke burned his father's ARMOR (ie: "empty suit") and that Anakin's body had vanished (off camera of course... somehow, since he never was "specially trained" by Qui Gon Jinn on how to retain his identity in the Force after death).

Still, looking at footage and stills of the "funeral pyre" in ROTJ, even in the 2004 edition, that doesn't look like an empty suit to me, and the "armor" is just a neckpiece, two shoulder plates and a helmet, really. The rest is like leather. The "chest battery pack" should have pushed the empty cloth down, since even if we presume his cybernetics stay behind, we know his chest is entirely flesh (even if his lungs are permanently damaged).

Or did Luke stuff his father's clothing with leaves and twigs before lightning the torch?

Another thing... if Vader's armor is made of handwavium, how was a simple fire supposed to destroy it? Why not try to remove the armor to make the process go faster? And if it was "empty" armor as Lucas wants us to believe now... what purpose would Luke have of burning it, rather than leaving it in space?

If I remember correctly, cremation is customary for Jedi burials.

Also, does the body have to actually disappear for the spirit thing to work? Qui-Gon did it, and his body never vanished.

Giving his father a proper burial, maybe?

And while that most likely wasn't the intention back then there's a fuckton of MODERN-DAY ways Anakin's suit could have kept its shape without him in it, leave alone Wars ones.

And where was it said that the fire was supposed to actually DESTROY the suit, as opposed to simply serve as a funeral pyre?

Batman wrote:Giving his father a proper burial, maybe?

And while that most likely wasn't the intention back then there's a fuckton of MODERN-DAY ways Anakin's suit could have kept its shape without him in it, leave alone Wars ones.

And where was it said that the fire was supposed to actually DESTROY the suit, as opposed to simply serve as a funeral pyre?

There's an account of someone returning to the site of Vader's burning and only finding a few scraps of the suit and some melted plastic. (It might have been Jacen or someone else fashioning himself as the next Lord of the Sith. I can't remember). However, that could be explained away by scavenging on the part of the Ewoks.

Not to mention that the disappearance of Vader's body in its entirety ALSO means all his cybernetic implants did.

Wouldn't Kyp Durron's trip to Endor be unfeasible thanks to the Endor Holocaust?

I'd like to hear some of these explanations as to how Vader's "suit" retained its shape so well while being burnt.

Lucas is the one saying Vader's body disappeared before the fire was lit. I'm wondering what in the movie(s) actually supports this...

Kurgan wrote:Wouldn't Kyp Durron's trip to Endor be unfeasible thanks to the Endor Holocaust?

I think so, unless he was completely whacked out of his mind on hallucinogenic Force effects or something. Or unless the Rebels really busted their budget trying to terraform the place back to a semblance of normalcy. Not sure if that would even work, for that matter.

I'd like to hear some of these explanations as to how Vader's "suit" retained its shape so well while being burnt.

Assuming it were made of highly flame-resistant materials it would keep its shape, but it wouldn't actually burn in that case, unless it were stuffed with flammable material. Even then, it would be more like "using Vader's armor as a brazier" than "burning Vader's armor." Of course, that's not totally unreasonable. Vikings would load a boat down with weapons and armor for a full ceremonial burial, right? That didn't mean they expected the weapons and armor to burn.

Lucas is the one saying Vader's body disappeared before the fire was lit. I'm wondering what in the movie(s) actually supports this...

Even in the remastered version, I'm not sure anything does. I can't remember if Yoda's body disappears, and if he didn't vanish then that proves that Jedi need not vanish to form a ghost.

You can't remember if Yoda's body disappeared?

IT DISAPPEARS IN SLOW MOTION FOLLOWED BY A GIANT REACTION SHOT FROM LUKE AND A MUSICAL ACCENT.

Man. Seriously?

Um-last I checked as per the EU novels of the time the Endor holocaust never actually happened?

Wouldn't Kyp Durron's trip to Endor be unfeasible thanks to the Endor Holocaust?

If a significant portion of the DS debris hit Endor Luke wouldn't be able to even conduct a burial, much less the victory celebration. Its hard to start a fire or dance when the atmosphere is heated past the cremation point of a human body.

One possible way to determine whether or not Luke could have burnt the body is to estimate how much wood he'd piled up for the pyre. Cremation in that manner is very inefficient and very fuel-intensive (IIRC at 100% efficiency wood hs something like 10-15 MJ/kg of energy in it.

I vaugley recall reading once that wood pyres needed something like a ton or more of fuel to burn a body. I can also recall that modern crematoria (more efficient) need in excess of 1-3 GJ to cremate a human body completely, so the pyre probably needs many times that (its not enclosed, for one thing - that ought to multiply the requirement by 3-5 times.)

It would also be a VERY hot fire I should note - if luke was really burning his Father's body he would hve to be using the Force to shield his body from the fire.

Batman wrote:Um-last I checked as per the EU novels of the time the Endor holocaust never actually happened?

Who cares what the novels says? The movie has enough problems by itself.

Its a fact that something had to happen to the mass/Energy of the DS, and its definitely true what curtis says about the enviromental contamination of that much debris (that is unavoidable.) The problem with the Endor Holocaust is why the moon was not burnt to a cinder the minute all that debris impacted - the KE in the debris (never mind the vaporized material) is going to be orders of magnitude above the extinction level threshold. There'd be no time for a celebration OR Luke to cremate his father - the entire planet would be burnt to a cinder. In fact there's probably very good odds that Han and Leia and the entire strike team would have died in the first few minutes of impact.

The other thing about modern cremation, is that there are enough bone fragments and pieces left over after the fire treatment, that they have to be ground up in a machine to produce the fine ash powder to place in a nice urn for the family. So that explains the pieces left over (assuming he can burn the "armor" in the first place).

However the thing with the suit is that, okay, you have essentially two artificial legs (just above the knee on down), an artificial arm (up to about the shoulder), and another artificial forearm. Then you've got the face mask, neck brace, and shoulder pads. The rest appears to be simple cloth (even if it's just fancy "blaster resistant cloth" that everyone uses). Then there's the belt gadgets and the heart monitor or whatever that plate is... those things must be heavy, and would press down on the (now empty) cloth and push them down.

I don't see any evidence in the movie itself, to lead us to believe that the body vanished before the fire was lit (or at any time while it was burning on camera for that matter). It appears we can see the shape of the body in the flames as if either Vader's corpse is still in it, or else it's stuffed with enough padding to make it look like he's still in it (and the helmet doesn't fall off, even though there's presumably nothing inside). It seems Lucas started this thing himself about a decade after the movie was made. I'm less concerned about the Endor Holocaust and whether his suit can actually reasonably be burned up, than as to how we're supposed to imagine his body vanished without us noticing (nevermind how that's supposed to be possible, since he never had the training to vanish AT DEATH as Obi-Wan and Yoda did... note that Qui Gon didn't vanish at death, but he was the "first one" to figure this out... AND this is presumably hours after Vader's actual death anyway).

Iirc, pre-1995 sources said his BODY was burned. Later sources say "armor" or "suit," helmet, etc. For years, as a kid I only had access to the full frame version, so to me, it looked like he was just burning the mask (though the far shot indicates the fire is way too big for just a little mask, and it's laid out as if something is supporting it). Now with widescreen (and the Prequels out), it's much harder to maintain this illusion that what Lucas is saying makes any sense.

Am I missing something here?

Connor MacLeod wrote:Who cares what the novels says? The movie has enough problems by itself.

Well, the novels are canon unless contradicted by something higher up, like the films.

Of course, we all probably have aspects of canon we'd like to ignore. But officially, all the little ewoks are still alive.

Its a fact that something had to happen to the mass/Energy of the DS, and its definitely true what curtis says about the enviromental contamination of that much debris (that is unavoidable.) The problem with the Endor Holocaust is why the moon was not burnt to a cinder the minute all that debris impacted - the KE in the debris (never mind the vaporized material) is going to be orders of magnitude above the extinction level threshold. There'd be no time for a celebration OR Luke to cremate his father - the entire planet would be burnt to a cinder. In fact there's probably very good odds that Han and Leia and the entire strike team would have died in the first few minutes of impact.

Except that obviously didn't happen.

Really, is it so hard to believe that the Rebels shielded the place somehow? It might be an awkward rationalization, but what's the alternative? Disregard canon completely and just make up our own version of events that blatantly contradicts the films?

Except isn't the current "canon" explanation that the DS explosion created *technobabble* that sucked up enough radiation and debris to protect the Sanctuary moon from permanent ecological damage?

The point about the stuff outside the movies not being able to contradict the movies themselves seems to fit with the empty Vader suit, unless someone can come up with a convincing explanation for why the visuals show a full suit (as IF there was a body shaped object inside it as the flames burned).

Kurgan wrote:Except isn't the current "canon" explanation that the DS explosion created *technobabble* that sucked up enough radiation and debris to protect the Sanctuary moon from permanent ecological damage?

If that's true, well, you learn something new every day.

The Romulan Republic wrote: Well, the novels are canon unless contradicted by something higher up, like the films.

Of course, we all probably have aspects of canon we'd like to ignore. But officially, all the little ewoks are still alive.

Someone didn't read what I posted, so I suggest you pay more attention next time. I was commenting on the simple fact that the ROTJ movie has enough problems with the Holocaust theory itself without dragging any of the novels into it. If I wanted to bring a novel into it, I would just point ot the ROTJ novel, or the screenplay, both of which indicate the celebration and cremation took place at nighttime.

Except that obviously didn't happen.

Well fucking Duh. Where the hell did I say it did occur? Or is the whole "The energy injected into Endor by the DS2's explosion would logically have killed off everyone nigh instantly despite this not happening in the movies" hard to grasp?

Really, is it so hard to believe that the Rebels shielded the place somehow?

It's wishful thinking that ignores physics. Even if they somehow COULD shield the planet (the only evidence for this being in the novelization, and that HAS problems in the theory that has to be explained) there's still conservation of momentum to consider (shields are NOt going to ignore CoM, and the momentum gets transmitted to the planet, which will cause problems all its own.)

And the Rebel fleet couldn't deflect or intercept the DS2 debris much for the same reason (it would probably have slammed the ships back into the planet at high speed.)

The best you can do is minimize the immediate destructive effects and then assume some sort of massive cleanup effort occured after the fact.

It might be an awkward rationalization, but what's the alternative? Disregard canon completely and just make up our own version of events that blatantly contradicts the films?

This has been discussed ad nauseum. I suggest you go back and actually do a board search on the topic to get the answers rather than just trying to handwave it away.

Kurgan wrote:Except isn't the current "canon" explanation that the DS explosion created *technobabble* that sucked up enough radiation and debris to protect the Sanctuary moon from permanent ecological damage?

The point about the stuff outside the movies not being able to contradict the movies themselves seems to fit with the empty Vader suit, unless someone can come up with a convincing explanation for why the visuals show a full suit (as IF there was a body shaped object inside it as the flames burned).

You have evidence for this so called "canon" theory I presume? Last I recall this was all speculation put forth by Sarli and his supposed "work" (and he tried passing this off as fact in his RPG work, much like he tried doing so to "refute" the power generation calcs in the DK books just ot justify his silly RPG conventions on fuel requirements.)

The problem with hyperspace wormholes is quite simple for several reasons -

1.) They are, to my knowledge, separate phenomena that tend to be highly visible effects (EG the one in Dark Empire) - we don't see this happen, nor do we see any debris disappearing or getting sucked back in any noticable fashion. This doesnt even factor in the issues of having some sort of force field "pull" strong enough to suck up a huge chunk of the mass/energy of the DS2 explosion (you have to get nearly all of it. Half, or even 10%, won't be enough to divert disaster. We're probably talking 99.99+% of it.)

Hell, I dont even recall evidence

2.) Objects in hyperspace do not just magically appear elsewhere. I don't even remember wormholes being a possible side effect of a malfuncioning hyperdrive, much less one capable of projecting huge amounts of debris across long distances. The more probable event would be that it just goes into hyperspace (and then still collide with the planet.) The whole "needing a hyperdrive to reenter realspace" is a rather key point in the Black Fleet crisis. You'd think that if hyperdrives could somehow transport debris across huge distances like proposed, the Imperials owuld have figured out a way to use it as a weapon.

There's actually a ton of problems with the idea that relies on a huge number of assumptions and unknowns and outright handwaving to make the "magical hyperspace disappearance" theory work,a nd it becomes such an utterly complicated theory that it simply is not workable, at least when compared to something simple like "They had a planetary repulsor and used it to help deflect some of the debris" or "having a whole planetary shield network available and the rebels simply blowing one one part of it to expose the DS2" does.

Connor MacLeod wrote:

Kurgan wrote:Except isn't the current "canon" explanation that the DS explosion created *technobabble* that sucked up enough radiation and debris to protect the Sanctuary moon from permanent ecological damage?

The point about the stuff outside the movies not being able to contradict the movies themselves seems to fit with the empty Vader suit, unless someone can come up with a convincing explanation for why the visuals show a full suit (as IF there was a body shaped object inside it as the flames burned).

You have evidence for this so called "canon" theory I presume? Last I recall this was all speculation put forth by Sarli and his supposed "work" (and he tried passing this off as fact in his RPG work, much like he tried doing so to "refute" the power generation calcs in the DK books just ot justify his silly RPG conventions on fuel requirements.)

Yes, but since it's been forever since I had the actual quotes in hand, and I'm feeling lazy, I'll just quote Wookieepedia:

In Star Wars Insider 76, a question and answer column written by Pablo Hidalgo states that the Ewoks were not all killed after the Battle of Endor. He refers to events described in the juvenile novel The Glove of Darth Vader, where debris from the second Death Star's destruction, including Darth Vader's glove, is sucked through a wormhole and taken through hyperspace to the other end of the galaxy (and, therefore, avoids landing on the forest moon.) Hidalgo also acknowledges the environmental consequences expected from the destruction of a planetoid-sized battle station so close to a habitable planet, but claims that the laws of physics can be "thrown out the window" for the sake of a story which George Lucas intended to have a "happy ending."

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Endor_Holocaust

I didn't say I bought it, but that's what's out there now.

There's actually a ton of problems with the idea that relies on a huge number of assumptions and unknowns and outright handwaving to make the "magical hyperspace disappearance" theory work,a nd it becomes such an utterly complicated theory that it simply is not workable, at least when compared to something simple like "They had a planetary repulsor and used it to help deflect some of the debris" or "having a whole planetary shield network available and the rebels simply blowing one one part of it to expose the DS2" does.

Too bad they didn't try to use that explanation then, huh? It seems like usually contradictions or plot holes are dealt with in the EU in the most unsatisfying ways...

I seem to remember that some novel (can't remmeber which so can't provide quotes or futher evidence) seemed to imply if not say outright that there's at least some armor under the cloth portion of the suit.

There was a line in one of the Darkhorse StarWars comics that the Rebel fleet used tractors and turbolasers to prevent most of the debris from hitting Endor.

Andras wrote:There was a line in one of the Darkhorse StarWars comics that the Rebel fleet used tractors and turbolasers to prevent most of the debris from hitting Endor.

The Death Star II outmassed the Rebel Fleet at Endor even at its incomplete state, and after the DSII went boom the Rebels still had four more hours of fleet combat with the Imperials that remained. I can buy that the Rebels protected at least the area around the commando team and the Ewok village that helped them. But protect the whole planet? Impossible, since that would require a far larger force that the Rebellion was unable to call upon. Remember, the fleet the Alliance had at Endor was everything they had.

From the ROTJ novelization, page 71:

"In a remote and midnight vacuum beyond the edge of the galaxy, the vast Rebel fleet stretched, from its vanguard to its rear echelon, past the range of human vision. Corellian battle ships, cruisers, destroyers, carriers, bombers, Sullustan cargo freighters, Calamarian tankers, Alderaanian gunships, Kesselian blockade runners, Bestinian skyhoppers, X-wing, Y-wing, and A-wing fighters, shuttles, transport vehicles, manowars. Every Rebel in the galaxy, soldier and civilian alike, waited tensely in these ships for instructions. They were led by the largest of the Rebel Star Cruisers, the Headquarters Frigate."

Taken from here.

Saxton's analysis of the Endor Holocaust: http://www.theforce.net/swtc/holocaust.html

Stark wrote:You can't remember if Yoda's body disappeared?

IT DISAPPEARS IN SLOW MOTION FOLLOWED BY A GIANT REACTION SHOT FROM LUKE AND A MUSICAL ACCENT.

Man. Seriously?

I have a bad memory. I am painfully aware of my disability, and I hope that the sudden revelation of it didn't cause you any harm (such as headbutt damage to your monitor).

OK, that settles that. My line of speculation is moot, because there is no evidence to base it on.

Connor MacLeod wrote:One possible way to determine whether or not Luke could have burnt the body is to estimate how much wood he'd piled up for the pyre. Cremation in that manner is very inefficient and very fuel-intensive (IIRC at 100% efficiency wood hs something like 10-15 MJ/kg of energy in it.

It could, however, have been a ceremonial pyre- symbolic of a larger pyre that could not be collected. For that matter, we might just be looking at an Old Republic funeral custom of burning some valuable possession of the deceased.

Wouldn't be the craziest funeral custom I'd heard of.

Kurgan wrote:*snip pointless drivel*

Pablo's wlel known for his dislike of Saxton's approach and conclusions about Star Wars, and he contradicts himself by basically saying "it doesn't matter, its all science fiction" so he's not even really trying to explain it logically. So why should be consider his answer to be legitimate if he'll just handwave it away anyhow?

Also I'm ont interested in listening to any of your retarded tirades bout the EU, SW in general, Lucas, or whatever. So just cut it out and stick to the fucking discussion.

Simon_Jester wrote:It could, however, have been a ceremonial pyre- symbolic of a larger pyre that could not be collected. For that matter, we might just be looking at an Old Republic funeral custom of burning some valuable possession of the deceased.

Wouldn't be the craziest funeral custom I'd heard of.

Perhaps, but we have no evidence of that, and we go with what we see. From screenshots on SWTc of the pyre, it looks like it maybe is a metre tall and several meters long. Say a bit over half a meter wide (60-70 cm perhaps)

If we assume 50% "emptyness" due to spacing since its not solid wood, and just generalize a wood density of oh 700 kg*m/s (I'm too lazy to look it up and it wont affect an OoM calc much since wood has roughly the density of human flesh) it could be around 400 kg or so of wood, give or take say a hundred kilograms to be generous.

Googling upsome stats on Hindu funeral pyres here, here, here, and here 400 kg or so seems to be within the likely range of fuel needed to burn a human body. The actual mass would probably be a bit less, given Vader's lack of forerms and lower legs (if we assume he massed 70-80 kg, he might mass 10-15 kg less disregarding other potential factors.)

I did some other checking and while I couldn't come up on definitive figures for energy density on wood, it does seem like it might be more like 15-20 MJ/kg (at least at ideal density) so its possible there's sufficient wood there to actually burn a corpse.

This isn't conclusive either way whether or not there was a body though, as it takes hours to burn down a body this way. It just tells us it may have been possible. (Luke also had to be using the Force to shield himself to stand so close to such a potentially hot fire, at that.)

I haven't read the Glove of Darth Vader, but apparently, that's the "canon" source in which this explanation is first offered. Apparently a lot of people thought GODV was crap (it sounds silly, and it IS a kid's book), but parts of it at least, are still in continuity, much like the much bemoaned SWHS.

Connor MacLeod wrote:

Kurgan wrote:*snip pointless drivel*

Pablo's wlel known for his dislike of Saxton's approach and conclusions about Star Wars, and he contradicts himself by basically saying "it doesn't matter, its all science fiction" so he's not even really trying to explain it logically. So why should be consider his answer to be legitimate if he'll just handwave it away anyhow?

Also I'm ont interested in listening to any of your retarded tirades bout the EU, SW in general, Lucas, or whatever.

Then you sure picked the wrong thread to respond to, buddy! There's no call to project your dislike of the man or his opinions onto me for reporting it. Above is the extent of the official information you asked for. So short of posting a scan of the article in question, I can't see what else you'd want, other than a disclaimer saying I didn't want to offend anyone who hates Hidalgo for "dissing" Saxton, and that "maximalist" Star Wars fans are winners too. We can surely find ways to dismiss any "authority" in the SW franchise, including Lucas.

So just cut it out and stick to the fucking discussion.

Don't make me get all 1536 on your ass...