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OK, so you-know-who claims that Millenium Falcon weapons range is 200 meters.

You guys said that he is incorrect. So, ok. Frankly, I was unable to understand mr. Wong lens chart, but let's say I trust him

So, I looked at that scene myself, and... what I saw was tiny T/F visible through the MF windows. Hm... I know that T/F is 6m wide, so the very fact that I (and crew of MF) was able to see it with bare eyes seems to imply rather, um... tiny range of MF weapons.

Although I know it can't be taken as a proof, I remember from games from X-wing family that T/F from the distance of 1 km is only a tiny dot on screen...

So, what do you think? Maybe you could remind me another examples of typical range of starfighter-sized cannons?

How far they can affectively be aimed or how far they are usually used?

Dealing with such fast and quickly manuvering craft, range is cut down to how well the pilot can adequately acquire and engage enemy fighters.

This is true, but...

You think they actually meant some kind of "fighter range"? I'm sorry, but that idea seems... strange to me.

Sure, in SW universe skilled pilot can dodge effectively weapons fire, but actual weapon range remains unchanged. And it's not like that T/F pilot was making some fancy maneuvers

(Anyway, that was some brave Imperial pilot, don't you think?)

Or the average stock light frieghter didn't carry anything he thought would hurt him.

Have we forgotten that the Falcon was a smuggler's ship? It was built to run, not to fight. In ROTJ, it is acting as an actual combat craft, but Han Solo is now GENERAL Solo of the Rebellion, and that thing's probably had quite a few upgrades in the meantime.

Darth Wong wrote:Have we forgotten that the Falcon was a smuggler's ship? It was built to run, not to fight. In ROTJ, it is acting as an actual combat craft, but Han Solo is now GENERAL Solo of the Rebellion, and that thing's probably had quite a few upgrades in the meantime.

Its actually equipped with some military equipment, but you're essentially right. ITs designed to run, not to fight.

There is one scene in the han Solo Adventures (HAn Solo at Star's end) where Han is firing on a CSA customs lighter in a game of head to head "chicken" which puts the weapons range estimates in the tens to hundreds of km. We can reinforce this by noting that according to the SWTJ, weaponry used in space has a much greater range than weapons of comparable power used in the atmosphere. Since its easily reasonable for the Falcon to have weapons of comparable power to say, for example, the Rebel fixed emplacements at Hoth, or an AT-AT, we can easily estimate ranges of 10-20 km, or more. Also remember that most rifles are capable of ranges of 1-2 km to up to 10 km the mselves, which also means fighter-scale weapons ranges can be much greater.

The greatest examples of weapons range I can think of (In th EU at least) would be Destiny's Way (firing on relatavistically-traveling Coralskippers in head to head passes) and the Ambush at Corellia "ambush" when the Falcon is attacked by robotic Uglies as part of a deception. The general estimates run the gamut from tens of thousands of km to hundreds of thousands of km (possibly even light seconds) in both cases.

Remember that starfighter and capital ship weapons are mostly lightspeed/near-lightspeed weapons by definition, so this means that their effective range is (at least for the massless, lightspeed weapons) only limited by targeting ability of the tracking computers and the weapons mount itself (lighter guns are designed for faster tracking and quicker firing than the large, heavy turrets.)

"You never heard of hte Millenium Falcon?"

"She's hte one that made the Kessel run in 5 parsecs"

"She's fast enough for you old man"

"This baby can outrun Imperial ships, not those local bulk cruisers"

Cyaround,
Jason

Less than 12 parsecs, IIRC.

Also there was no one in the turret, and, IIRC, the quads are less accurate when fired from the cockpit.

Kazeite wrote:OK, so you-know-who claims that Millenium Falcon weapons range is 200 meters.

You guys said that he is incorrect. So, ok. Frankly, I was unable to understand mr. Wong lens chart, but let's say I trust him

Use common sense, something the dipshit you're referring to has in very short supply.

If the Falcon's weapon range was 200 meters, why didn't se see it slam into the Death Star after blowing up Vader's wingman? There's fully 10 seconds from the TIE being shot until the Falcon pulls out of the dive. Did we see the Falcon in the background slam into the surface? Nope. Did we see the surface of the Death Star in the background when the Falcon pulls out of the dive? Nope.

If we want to be subserviant to everything Lucas says, in the recent Premiere magazine (Top 100 Movie Scenes of All Time, IIRC) he states that the Falcon came "out of the sun, an old western trick. Thats why Vader didn't see him."

KhyronTheBackstabber wrote:Also there was no one in the turret, and, IIRC, the quads are less accurate when fired from the cockpit.

Actually Chewie's Niece fixed that during the Black Fleet Crisis.

Wow, so many answers. I'm honoured

To answer chronologically, yes, Millenium Falcon is a smuggler's ship, and it had upgrades, comparing ANH and TESB models.
However... Laser turrets remainded unchanged on physical model, although it received new landing pods (among other things) and new paint job. All changes are described on Robert Brown page.

So, it would _appear_, that actual cannons remainded the same.

Regarding speed of Falcon, we have lots of conflicting data... Han was certain that his "baby can outrun Imperial ships, not those local bulk cruisers", but he was unable to out-run ISD in TESB.
Falcon seems to be faster that T/F during the chase scene (or was T/F not flying at the top speed?), but after escape from Death Star a couple of T/Fs are able to catch up with it and attack with no difficulty from all angles (incidentally, those T/F are all attacking from close ranges, comparable with chase scene).

It is interesting to note, as KhyronTheBackstabber said, that Han apparently intended to shoot from the cockpit during chase scene, but during sun-dive attack he was sitting in turret.
So, "using common sense", apparently the quads are indeed less accurate when fired from the cockpit.

So, Falcons weapon range indeed appears to be "10-20 km"...

I may be going out on a limb, but there is always the possibility that the ships computer maginified the image to aid in targeting

It depends on what era the Falcon is from, NJO falcon has very long range and is quite millitarized.

Alyrium Denryle - Yes, there is, but if I'm not mistaken we haven't seen any evidence of that. Maybe EU sources tell us othervise, I don't know (I'm not particulary familiar with this piece of SW reference - I mean, I know it exist, but I haven't seen it personally )

His Divine Shadow - Could you explain this "NJO" for me? What does it mean?

NJO is the New Jedi Order. Basically what they're calling the EU series of books starting with Vector Prime.

I don't see how you can give the Falcon such 'low' ranges. Yes, we only see close combat, except for the out of the sun dive. But think about this, do you try to shoot a small manuverable, very fast enemy fighter from kilometers away? No, you wait until they get up close and have less time to react. You'll find it easier to dispatch enemies that way. 200 meters is crazy. I could modify a spit wad to go further than that.

Judging from the "New Jedi Order" name, those books happen many years after classic trilogy? So although it is interesting piece of information, it is... well, not irrelevant, but I would like to focus on classic era, ok? If Falcon was militarized it is logical to assume that his weapon range increased as well.

Hey - I didn't said I accept that 200 meters value. Like I said, there's lot of conflicting data. We simply have to note every reference and spot distance that appears in most of the sources.
For obvious example, (as Lord Poe mentioned) that 200 meters value is contradicted by DS scene, so it's most likely case of VFX "error" that was made to make T/F more visible and more menacing, or something.

Kinda like DS trench run - sometimes Vader's group is so close to Rebel fighters it's almost ridiculous, right? Same idea here, IMHO.

Kazeite wrote:To answer chronologically, yes, Millenium Falcon is a smuggler's ship, and it had upgrades, comparing ANH and TESB models.
However... Laser turrets remainded unchanged on physical model, although it received new landing pods (among other things) and new paint job. All changes are described on Robert Brown page.

So, it would _appear_, that actual cannons remainded the same.

Which matters little. The weapons package, which would include improved targeting, firepower, etc. could have been upgraded and still the quad cannons wouldn't have to be traded out. Much like the improved navicomputer, which in ANH needed "a few moments" to gather coords for a safe jump. While in TESB, Solo was ready to jump at the drop of a hat "Oh yeah? Watch this-".

But that's neither here nor there, since we don't know if Solo was going to fire on the TIE approaching the Death Star with the quads, or the swivel blaster. Note that during the escape from the Death Star, Solo told Chewie to "charge up the main guns" before using the quads. No such order was given in the other example.

Regarding speed of Falcon, we have lots of conflicting data... Han was certain that his "baby can outrun Imperial ships, not those local bulk cruisers", but he was unable to out-run ISD in TESB.

Read the novelizations. Solo meant he could outrun them in hyperspace, not sublight.

Falcon seems to be faster that T/F during the chase scene (or was T/F not flying at the top speed?), but after escape from Death Star a couple of T/Fs are able to catch up with it and attack with no difficulty from all angles (incidentally, those T/F are all attacking from close ranges, comparable with chase scene).

This is a common mistake. Those TIEs didn't "catch up" to the Falcon; the Falcon flew into THEM.

HAN: "We're coming up on their sentry ships-"

It is interesting to note, as KhyronTheBackstabber said, that Han apparently intended to shoot from the cockpit during chase scene, but during sun-dive attack he was sitting in turret.

No, he wasn't. He was in the cockpit. Take a good look at the background behind Han.

First, ANH and before Falcon is designed to run. It even has a special sensor system so it can detect ships first, and run.


And 200 meters is silly. Rifles in ESB had longer range. AT-AT guns had longer range. Rebel guns have longer range.

Kazeite wrote:Judging from the "New Jedi Order" name, those books happen many years after classic trilogy? So although it is interesting piece of information, it is... well, not irrelevant, but I would like to focus on classic era, ok? If Falcon was militarized it is logical to assume that his weapon range increased as well.

If you can't accept EU evidence, thats your problem, not mine Unless you can prove that it directly contradicts the canon, it can be used. Thus, it remains valid.

Hey - I didn't said I accept that 200 meters value. Like I said, there's lot of conflicting data. We simply have to note every reference and spot distance that appears in most of the sources.

What sort of "conflicting data?" You're being incredibly vague.

For obvious example, (as Lord Poe mentioned) that 200 meters value is contradicted by DS scene, so it's most likely case of VFX "error" that was made to make T/F more visible and more menacing, or something.

Thats not "conflicting data". You do realize that many factors (weapon type, weapon state, EW, manual versus computerized, computer assisted targeting, target emissions, target angle, speed, etc.) can affect weapons ranges, do you not?

As Wayne said, use some fucking common sense.

Kinda like DS trench run - sometimes Vader's group is so close to Rebel fighters it's almost ridiculous, right? Same idea here, IMHO.

Again, EFFECTIVE ranges can differ substantially depending upon factors involved.

Lord Poe wrote: Which matters little. The weapons package, which would include improved targeting, firepower, etc. could have been upgraded and still the quad cannons wouldn't have to be traded out.

So you are saying that normal sensors are unable to make use of full cannon capabilities? Why would Han allow for that serious disadvantage?

And, if Grand Admiral Thrawn is right, during ANH Han has the best sensor available.

But that's neither here nor there, since we don't know if Solo was going to fire on the TIE approaching the Death Star with the quads, or the swivel blaster.

We don't know if swivel blaster was installed at that time. Even if it did... it doesn't make sense for Han to try to fire on the T/F with the swivel blaster.
If I'm not mistaken, such weapon would be innefective against such large, armored target. (compared to snowtroppers with cannon )

This is a common mistake. Those TIEs didn't "catch up" to the Falcon; the Falcon flew into THEM.

Oh. My mistake. But still, those T/Fs were able to attack with no difficulty from all angles.

No, he wasn't. He was in the cockpit. Take a good look at the background behind Han.

Oh, my mistake again
Of course' it could've been Chewbacca that was in turret

And regarding your previous post - if Falcon was far from DS, can you explain Vader's wingman actions? He acted like he was about to be rammed by Falcon.

Connor MacLeod wrote: If you can't accept EU evidence, thats your problem, not mine Unless you can prove that it directly contradicts the canon, it can be used. Thus, it remains valid.

Whoa... Why do you think that I'm not accepting EU evidence? I said, I want to focus on classic era, not that I can't accept future upgrade of the Falcon.

What sort of "conflicting data?" You're being incredibly vague.

I'm sorry.
But many examples were mentioned in this thread (You gave one, too).

You do realize that many factors can affect weapons ranges, do you not?

Yes I do.
In both examples Falcon was operating in close vicinity of the Death Star, it was flying with high velocity, weapon was fired (or about to be fired) from cockpit, it was firing (or about to fire) at identical target, target was flying without sudden maneuvers, but it was flying under different angle.

So, you are saying that sharp angles actually allow Falcon to fire from greater range?

Kazeite wrote:

Lord Poe wrote: Which matters little. The weapons package, which would include improved targeting, firepower, etc. could have been upgraded and still the quad cannons wouldn't have to be traded out.

So you are saying that normal sensors are unable to make use of full cannon capabilities? Why would Han allow for that serious disadvantage?

So not owning a Ferrari makes me unable to reach the optimum speed in the Autobahn? Why would I allow for that serious disadvantage? Next you'll argue why would Han expose himself to danger by not owning a Star Destroyer.

What makes you think there's a "full" capability? A rifle without a sniper scope is unable to reach its "full" capability? All rifles should have scopes then, or they are useless? How about having a 4x scope instead of 8x or 16x magnification? Am I allowing for a serious disadvantage?

Do you have the latest graphics acceleration card in your computer? The fastest processor? The best sound card? Are you using a 5.1 surround system? Do you have a force-feedback joystick, 3D glasses, steering wheel with throttle, or an hydraulic seat with vibration? Do you have the biggest monitor available? Optical mouse? Latest DVD reader+writer?

If you answered no to any of the above, then why do you allow for such a serious disadvantage?

And regarding your previous post - if Falcon was far from DS, can you explain Vader's wingman actions? He acted like he was about to be rammed by Falcon.

Of course, according to you that is evidence that the Falcon planned on crashing into the trench (which you think outweighs the evidence that it *didn't*). Maybe the wingman acted like he was about to be shot by the Falcon, like the other (dead) wingman? Probably you think your explanation makes the more sense.

Kazeite wrote: Whoa... Why do you think that I'm not accepting EU evidence? I said, I want to focus on classic era, not that I can't accept future upgrade of the Falcon.

You attempted to limit the discussion to canon when there is no reason to do so. And if it was an upgrade, the ability already had to be in place - there's no way weapons ranges jumped many orders of magnitude between OT and NJO. Of course, I've cited other examples (And there are more - laser cannons are cited as having 1/2 to 1/3 the range of turbolasers in the EGW&T, which also means that the Falcon can have ranges from hundreds to thousands of km, easily.)

Yes I do.
In both examples Falcon was operating in close vicinity of the Death Star, it was flying with high velocity, weapon was fired (or about to be fired) from cockpit, it was firing (or about to fire) at identical target, target was flying without sudden maneuvers, but it was flying under different angle.

So, you are saying that sharp angles actually allow Falcon to fire from greater range?

In the first example with Alderaan, you ignore the fact the DS had JUST DESTROYED ALDERAAN. The ANH novelization clearly indicates there were levels of "wild energy" present - high enough to be distinguishable as a planet-destroying event (Along with the solid waste.) That much energy (in the form of emitted heat from debris, and such.) would quite probably interfere with sensor attempts to lock onto any sort of emissions a TIE fighter was giving off - either by passive or active targeting - to say nothing of EW. Thus, one would have to get closer in order to hit it.

The Radio drama indicates that Han was attempting to go for a "sensor gun lock", which explains that. IF he was going for manual targeting (some sources indicate that the cockpit-mounted gunnery is mostly manual) - he would by definition ahve to get closer - particularily since some of those sources give the Falcon decreased accuracy in cockpit gunnery (EGV&V and maybe the SWTJ, IIRC.) The reduced accuracy bit can also apply to computer-targeting as well.

The Trench run instance was, as Wayne noted, from quite a bit farther away. In that instance, the TIEs were unaware of the attackers (who were coming in with the sun from behind them, amidst the DS's own jamming, etc) inside the trench (they couldn't manuver), moving in a fairly predictable straight-line path.

Kazeite wrote:OK, so you-know-who claims that Millenium Falcon weapons range is 200 meters.

Does this mean that Dickstar has a new harry-Potter-esque nickname? Should we start calling him Voldemort?

Kazeite wrote:So you are saying that normal sensors are unable to make use of full cannon capabilities? Why would Han allow for that serious disadvantage?

Did you note the navicomputer examples in my last post? There's a difference between Solo's pocket pre-ANH and post ANH: loads of money. He sure didn't pay off Jabba the Hutt in the three years between ANH and TESB with the loot he received from the Rebellion; he upgraded his ship. Solo's pre-ANH history shows he and chewie were always on the verge of poverty before they met up with Luke and Obi-Wan.[/quote]

And, if Grand Admiral Thrawn is right, during ANH Han has the best sensor available.

Again, that matters little if the weapons package wasn't upgraded until later. BTW, which quote are you referring to?

We don't know if swivel blaster was installed at that time.

Yes, we do. Read the pre-ANH Solo adventures written by A.C. Crispin.

Even if it did... it doesn't make sense for Han to try to fire on the T/F with the swivel blaster.
If I'm not mistaken, such weapon would be innefective against such large, armored target. (compared to snowtroppers with cannon )

We don't know if Solo was going to disable to destroy the TIE. Its the only logical conclusion, since we know he can blow up a TIE from much farther away as seen at the end of the movie.

Oh. My mistake. But still, those T/Fs were able to attack with no difficulty from all angles.

Err...and? It IS 3-D space...

Oh, my mistake again
Of course' it could've been Chewbacca that was in turret

Or Solo could have shot the TIE from the cockpit.

And regarding your previous post - if Falcon was far from DS, can you explain Vader's wingman actions? He acted like he was about to be rammed by Falcon.

How does that affect anything I've said? The wingman didn't panic until AFTER Solo blasted one of the TIEs. Again, we're talking about this bullshit 200 meters number again. Still doesn't wash.