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I was watching TESB today, of course. While watching I decided to shift my attention away from Luke as I had usually done, and decided to really put effort into analyzing Yoda this time. See, I always liked Yoda as a kid and now. At least in Empire and ROTJ. In the prequels I felt a lot like Mike did, that he was an arrogant, over confident old man who micromanaged the Jedi Order all from the comfort of his backseat. This was different from the Yoda we knew.

Watching Yoda, it's easy to see that according to the OT alone, Yoda was a shrewd, wise Jedi Master with a disgruntled outlook upon the galaxy and a distrust of Obi Won Kenobi and other former or aspiring "Jedi". His character was extremely cynical, believeing Luke was likely to fail against Vader and possibly even turn to the Dark Side. Hell when Luke came to the planet he didn't even trust him. (Hence the clumsy old man act.) Even though Kenobi had presumably been in contact with Yoda over Luke's coming to Dagobah.

Then you watch the Prequels right? And in the prequels, Yoda teaches young students. He casually jokes with them, when he's talking with just Windu and Kenobi, he even seems lighthearted then as well. He expressed concerns with Obi Won taking Anakin as his apprentice in Episode 1, but condoned it nonetheless. Later, when people ask Yoda for help, he is very laissez-faire about his advice. Mike pointed out that Yoda's advice always seemed to amount to "smile and let it happen" which is pretty much the truth. This contrasts with Yoda's later decision to personally train Luke, and to stop taking a backseat to the lives of his students.

Yoda has also designed the Jedi Order with lots of little rules like "Don't fall in love". These rules and practices were ostensibly designed to micromanage the lives of the Jedi living in the order. So he wouldn't have to. Also, the great prophecy which fortold the coming "Bringer of Balance to the Force" he interprited like Windu, VERY optimistically. Basically "The Jedi will win in the end."

Mike's commentary noted that Yoda had basically turned the Jedi Order into his puppet which is pretty much true. So why wouldn't he be happy? As far as he's concerned his model of the Jedi Order is the most successful in history. After 800 years their have been no major wars until the Clone Wars which were certainly started by Sith intervention.

Then Anakin falls, Palpatine wipes out the Order, and criminalizes the Jedi. Yoda's world falls apart, everything he built came crashing down to a menace that was right in front of him. The many rules and precedents he designed did absolutely nothing to protect his Order. Ultimately handicapping it. The Prophecy he had read suddenly became terrifyingly vague. What if by "balance to the force" the prophecy did not mean "Jedi = Win" but actually had implied "Sith = Win".

Thus we have OT Yoda.

OT Yoda is cynical and broken. He initially refuses to train Luke and strongly distrusts him. When he finally concedes to train Luke, he's still very cynical of Luke's abilities and never quite believe in him. He staunchly believes Luke will end up just like his father. Because for all intents and purposes, the boy sitting in his hut right then whining "Ben tell him i'm ready!" was the spitting image of his father minus 60 years.

Regardless, Yoda goes along with it. He has to rush the training because Luke is already old and...well, the Empire isn't getting any younger, and neither are they. (Though he still believed Luke needed a lot of work when he left Dagobah). During the training Luke is impatient, whiny, and disbelieving. And Yoda, like he was Gunnery Sergeant Hartman in space, (minus the cursing) consistently turns Luke's own impatience against him. Embarrassing him routinely. He forgoes teaching Luke many of the old minor rules like "don't fall in love" or other precedents that he used to live by. Seeing the inefficiency of those rules in his new training.

Luke eventually rushes to fight Vader, and loses.

But amazingly, he does not turn. Even after he learns the truth. He fights Vader to the very end, willing even to kill himself to escape the Dark Side. This is where things seemed to change. Like Anakin, Luke rushed into a fight and got his ass kicked, he met the Dark Side face to face and even heard out its offer to "join us". But unlike Anakin, he chose to run from Dark Side. Luke comes back to train, and Yoda accepts to train him again. Because unlike Anakin, Luke CAME BACK.

The next time, Luke is no fool. The next time we see him, he's ready for war and ready for the Force. In ROTJ, Yoda has changed as well. He's still cynical and has ominous fears of the future, but he no longer believes Luke will necessarily fail. Even if he does, their is still hope with Leia. Before he died, he seemed pleased with himself and Luke. Even though things weren't over. He had trained Luke, he had really tried to make things better, and for the first time, it was showing.

This is Yoda in the end. In my opinion, Yoda repented the mistakes he had made in the PT. Evidenced by his change in attitudes and training techniques. He still tried to run away from the big problem early in TESB. He tried to run from the Galaxy and run from the terror that was ultimately his responcibility. Then, he learned what he had done wrong, from all of the fundamentalist teachings he had sewn into the Jedi Order to all of the silly machincations he believed he had control of. He was still religious, but he was no longer foolish, arrogant, and inactive. In the end, the Prophecy favored no one. Vader killed the Jedi Order true enough, but in the end, he ALSO killed Palpatine. Effectively ending the Sith.

Luke referred to himself as a "Jedi" but only in that he was opposed to the Sith. (And we was basically trying to light a fire up Palp's ass.) I believe that since Yoda skipped and disregarded most of the old teachings of the Jedi, Luke was a new kind of Force User. Not necessarily a Jedi, but not a Sith. He was the first of a new breed of Force User. His Father had cleared the way for him. Now the ultimate point of the Prophecy was clear to Yoda in death as it had been to men like Qui Gon in life. The Jedi and the Sith were both judged by the Force and it wanted them out of the way. Luke was given a clean slate to work off of. And unlike the EU's wretched "oh yeah he totally made teh new jedi's doode" belief, I strongly believe that Luke created a new order of Force Users post-ROTJ. One not bound by obsolete traditional beliefs and practice and inaction. (As Yoda had eventually learned the error of.) Yet not bound by self destructive, perpetual violence either. (As Vader had eventually learned the foolishness of.)

It's the path Yoda takes and the ultimate result of the Great Prophecy that I felt like looking at this time. Yoda went from being this stogy old Priest with delusions of power and confidence, to a broken, old man hateful of the Galaxy around him and the people he knew. Finally ending his life in a middle ground, accepting the problems and issues the Galaxy faced, but no longer believing they were unsolvable. The Prophecy ultimately worked out the exact manner it said it would. No Jedi, no Sith, only Luke.

So yeah, who's got what to say?

What makes you think Luke's order won't inevitably become the same as the Jedi Order?

Samuel wrote:What makes you think Luke's order won't inevitably become the same as the Jedi Order?

Because Luke is trying to build the framework of the Jedi of a warped view of what the Jedi actually were? Remember PT we have the Jedi as Celibate Monks off in a temple, coming out only to deal with crises then returning. The no loving, the taking children away when they are young, were all almost cult like.

Luke meanwhile seemed to be trying to build a much more open order, when he finds possible new Jedi, he askes, never mind taking children away. Of course we have to go to the EU to see what he did since there is no official trilogy. Both all EU writers share the same general vision that Jedi were trained, then learned and they went home to look after their native planets. This might have changed in the era of the NJO which I never read, but before the Jedi were regional instead of the vast central bureaucracy.

The only thing I can't really agree with is your claims that Yoda made the rules of the old jedi order. What evidence to you have for this?

Yoda has also designed the Jedi Order with lots of little rules like "Don't fall in love"."

These rules pre-dated Yoda. His main flaw that he was a traditionalist. He tried to keep the order the same as it was when he was young; 900 hundred years ago. He didn't invent the rules, he just enforced them.

It's actually an error I made recalling sources. But it still works for the overall point, IE: That PT Yoda was basically lazy and over confident. And saw no problems with the conventional teachings of the Jedi even though the problems were clear to people like Qui Gon.

Samuel wrote:What makes you think Luke's order won't inevitably become the same as the Jedi Order?

Due to the condensed nature of his training. As well as Yoda's own movement away from mindless traditionalism. Finally, Luke's own first personal experience of literally watching every Force User that came before him, Obi Won, Anakin, and finally Yoda, pass on. Leaving him completely alone to do as he will.

CaptHawkeye wrote:
Watching Yoda, it's easy to see that according to the OT alone, Yoda was a shrewd, wise Jedi Master with a disgruntled outlook upon the galaxy and a distrust of Obi Won Kenobi and other former or aspiring "Jedi". His character was extremely cynical, believeing Luke was likely to fail against Vader and possibly even turn to the Dark Side. Hell when Luke came to the planet he didn't even trust him. (Hence the clumsy old man act.) Even though Kenobi had presumably been in contact with Yoda over Luke's coming to Dagobah.

I was always of the opinion that Yoda was never as cynical or bitter as he let on, rather that it was more of a facade that was supposed to help Luke with his initial training. Helping him to "unlearn what he had learned" so to speak. I also felt that his conversation with Kenobi in front of Luke was sort of a "good cop, bad cop" routine to help Luke pull his head out of his ass a bit.

It's not surprising to me that he thought Luke would fail against Vader when he departed Dagobah for Bespin, because at the time even Obi Wan (Luke's proponent) admitted he wasn't ready to face Vader. Luke did fail against Vader at Cloud City eventually, walking right into the trap laid out for him. Not that I fault Luke for doing so entirely, I just point it out because it shows that Yoda and Obi Wan knew what they were talking about and there was the very real risk that Luke could have been killed.

Then you watch the Prequels right? And in the prequels, Yoda teaches young students. He casually jokes with them, when he's talking with just Windu and Kenobi, he even seems lighthearted then as well. He expressed concerns with Obi Won taking Anakin as his apprentice in Episode 1, but condoned it nonetheless.

I was under the impression that Yoda did not condone it whatsoever, and that Anakin's training was the result of the Council's decision with Yoda dissenting.

Later, when people ask Yoda for help, he is very laissez-faire about his advice. Mike pointed out that Yoda's advice always seemed to amount to "smile and let it happen" which is pretty much the truth. This contrasts with Yoda's later decision to personally train Luke, and to stop taking a backseat to the lives of his students.

In the case of Anakin Skywalker, was Yoda's advice wrong? I would argue that if Yoda knew truly how deep Anakin's attachment to Amidala was he might have tried to do more to help him, but it was Anakin's attachment to Amidala that caused his fall to the Dark Side after all and if Anakin hadn't let his fear of losing her control him, then events would have played out very differently in RoTS.

In Dark Rendezvous, we get a good insight into Yoda's training with then Padawan Dooku. It appeared to be quite hands on, and we do see other instances of Yoda taking a personal interest in certain students including Dooku. Sometimes he is more direct in his instruction, other times he seems to get the student to learn the lesson on his or her own, such as the case when Dooku was going to break his own arm out of spite during a Jedi training game against Yoda, and then stopped realizing how petty his actions would be.

Yoda has also designed the Jedi Order with lots of little rules like "Don't fall in love". These rules and practices were ostensibly designed to micromanage the lives of the Jedi living in the order. So he wouldn't have to. Also, the great prophecy which fortold the coming "Bringer of Balance to the Force" he interprited like Windu, VERY optimistically. Basically "The Jedi will win in the end."

Plus your clarification

It's actually an error I made recalling sources. But it still works for the overall point, IE: That PT Yoda was basically lazy and over confident. And saw no problems with the conventional teachings of the Jedi even though the problems were clear to people like Qui Gon.

He definitely realized in RoTS (the novelization really emphasizes this) that the Jedi Order had failed to change and adapt appropriately. I'd hardly call Yoda "lazy" though.

Mike's commentary noted that Yoda had basically turned the Jedi Order into his puppet which is pretty much true. So why wouldn't he be happy? As far as he's concerned his model of the Jedi Order is the most successful in history. After 800 years their have been no major wars until the Clone Wars which were certainly started by Sith intervention.

While Yoda certainly held a lot of influence on account of his senority, power, and having trained a great many of the Jedi Order when they were younglings, I wouldn't think to refer to the Order as his puppet. I can recal multiple instances of Yoda lamenting at what the Jedi Order had become due to the Clone Wars. The book Dark Rendezvous, and Vol. 5 of the Clone Wars comics demonstrate this very well. Also, Yoda's influence wasn't great enough to deter the Jedi Council from permitting Anakin's training at the end of Episode One. A lot of influence does not necessairly mean total control.

Then Anakin falls, Palpatine wipes out the Order, and criminalizes the Jedi. Yoda's world falls apart, everything he built came crashing down to a menace that was right in front of him. The many rules and precedents he designed did absolutely nothing to protect his Order. Ultimately handicapping it. The Prophecy he had read suddenly became terrifyingly vague. What if by "balance to the force" the prophecy did not mean "Jedi = Win" but actually had implied "Sith = Win".

RoTS Novelization backs this up well. There is a quote along the lines where Yoda is thinking about how the Sith spent 1,000 years in hiding training to fight the next war, while the Jedi spent that whole time preparing to fight the previous one. I would add to this that the point when this really hits home for Yoda is when he realizes that Palpatine has beaten him in the Senate Arena. Again I refer to the novelization of the film, where Yoda realizes that he as the Champion of the Jedi Order did not have what it took to beat the Sidious. Even after everything leading into that fight, I think it took his actual defeat in order to really demonstrate how he had erred.

Thus we have OT Yoda.

OT Yoda is cynical and broken. He initially refuses to train Luke and strongly distrusts him. When he finally concedes to train Luke, he's still very cynical of Luke's abilities and never quite believe in him. He staunchly believes Luke will end up just like his father. Because for all intents and purposes, the boy sitting in his hut right then whining "Ben tell him i'm ready!" was the spitting image of his father minus 60 years.

Like I said earlier, I believe this was all part of his teaching in order to help Luke open his mind. While Luke had a lot of experiences in life comparted with PT-era padawans, his preconceptions would hinder his training. He needed Yoda to lift the X-Wing after all, because in his mind it was too big. Yoda is one of those teachers who doesn't always explicity say things out loud, but rather enables students to learn lessons on their own from time to time.

Regardless, Yoda goes along with it. He has to rush the training because Luke is already old and...well, the Empire isn't getting any younger, and neither are they. (Though he still believed Luke needed a lot of work when he left Dagobah). During the training Luke is impatient, whiny, and disbelieving. And Yoda, like he was Gunnery Sergeant Hartman in space, (minus the cursing) consistently turns Luke's own impatience against him. Embarrassing him routinely.

It's easy to see why the Jedi initially felt that training from a young age was a good idea, even if it had it's downside. Especially when you see the younglings in AoTC easily handling the training remotes that Luke had difficulty with in ANH. Hence why Yoda had to try and deprogram Luke of certain preconceptions about the world around him. By allowing Luke to believe Yoda was just an old hermit and then revealing himself subtly in the hut, Luke was forced into the realization that not everything is as it appears and forced him to open his mind further. Then, by coming up with the excuse that Luke was "too old to begin the training" it prompted Luke to really commit himself and prove to Yoda that he was willing to undergo the training. Note how there wasn't much resistance from Yoda when Luke objected to that statement. Furthermore, I think we can tell that Yoda was blowing smoke when he said Luke was too old, because he had to have known at the end of RoTS that it would be quite a long time before he would ever see Luke again (if ever) once he was taken to Tatooine.

He forgoes teaching Luke many of the old minor rules like "don't fall in love" or other precedents that he used to live by. Seeing the inefficiency of those rules in his new training.

Or perhaps he nows sees those rules as unecessary or even hindrances.

Luke eventually rushes to fight Vader, and loses.

But amazingly, he does not turn. Even after he learns the truth. He fights Vader to the very end, willing even to kill himself to escape the Dark Side. This is where things seemed to change. Like Anakin, Luke rushed into a fight and got his ass kicked, he met the Dark Side face to face and even heard out its offer to "join us". But unlike Anakin, he chose to run from Dark Side. Luke comes back to train, and Yoda accepts to train him again. Because unlike Anakin, Luke CAME BACK.

Honest question, you think that if Anakin had a similar experience like Luke had in the cave he might have come back?

I also see a contrast in Luke and Anakin with regards to the people they had lost. Owen and Beru were killed by the Empire, and Vader killed Obi Wan, do you think that experience helped keep Luke from the Dark Side as well? By contrast, Anakin wasn't courted to the Dark Side by the being responsible for the deaths of his mother, or comrades in the war.

The next time, Luke is no fool. The next time we see him, he's ready for war and ready for the Force. In ROTJ, Yoda has changed as well. He's still cynical and has ominous fears of the future, but he no longer believes Luke will necessarily fail. Even if he does, their is still hope with Leia. Before he died, he seemed pleased with himself and Luke. Even though things weren't over. He had trained Luke, he had really tried to make things better, and for the first time, it was showing.

This is Yoda in the end. In my opinion, Yoda repented the mistakes he had made in the PT. Evidenced by his change in attitudes and training techniques. He still tried to run away from the big problem early in TESB. He tried to run from the Galaxy and run from the terror that was ultimately his responcibility. Then, he learned what he had done wrong, from all of the fundamentalist teachings he had sewn into the Jedi Order to all of the silly machincations he believed he had control of. He was still religious, but he was no longer foolish, arrogant, and inactive. In the end, the Prophecy favored no one. Vader killed the Jedi Order true enough, but in the end, he ALSO killed Palpatine. Effectively ending the Sith.

I disagree that Yoda was trying to run away from any problems, and I really disagree with your statement that the terror was ultimately his responsibility.

I see Yoda as knowing he has little time left, and as being ready to quite literally pass on the reins of the Jedi Order to the next generation, knowing full well that it will be a far different Order than the one he had known, hoping that Luke will be able to shape the New Jedi Order into something more adaptable so that the mistakes of the past would not be repeated.

Luke referred to himself as a "Jedi" but only in that he was opposed to the Sith. (And we was basically trying to light a fire up Palp's ass.) I believe that since Yoda skipped and disregarded most of the old teachings of the Jedi, Luke was a new kind of Force User. Not necessarily a Jedi, but not a Sith.

Errr...what?

He was the first of a new breed of Force User. His Father had cleared the way for him. Now the ultimate point of the Prophecy was clear to Yoda in death as it had been to men like Qui Gon in life. The Jedi and the Sith were both judged by the Force and it wanted them out of the way. Luke was given a clean slate to work off of. And unlike the EU's wretched "oh yeah he totally made teh new jedi's doode" belief, I strongly believe that Luke created a new order of Force Users post-ROTJ. One not bound by obsolete traditional beliefs and practice and inaction. (As Yoda had eventually learned the error of.) Yet not bound by self destructive, perpetual violence either. (As Vader had eventually learned the foolishness of.)

And yet Luke based his New Jedi Order on what little of the Jedi History he could recover. He changed a lot of the practices and traditions true, but didn't change the core beliefs of the Jedi. They even kept the Jedi code did they not? Yoda even refers to Luke as the last of the Jedi, Luke refers to himself as such in Yoda's hut before he dies before Yoda corrects him, telling him that he has to confront Vader first.

It's the path Yoda takes and the ultimate result of the Great Prophecy that I felt like looking at this time. Yoda went from being this stogy old Priest with delusions of power and confidence, to a broken, old man hateful of the Galaxy around him and the people he knew. Finally ending his life in a middle ground, accepting the problems and issues the Galaxy faced, but no longer believing they were unsolvable. The Prophecy ultimately worked out the exact manner it said it would. No Jedi, no Sith, only Luke.

So yeah, who's got what to say?

[/quote]

Delusions of power? Hateful of the galaxy? Hateful of people around him? How so? While I don't think Yoda's outlook on life was rosy and cheerful during his time on Dagobah, I find it hard to believe that he had become quite so negative. On his deathbed he appeared quite contrite to Luke with regards to the secrets hed had kept about Luke's lineage. I saw Yoda as someone who had experienced a lot of grief and remorse even before the PT trilogy had been released, and feel that while proud of Luke he was still aware of the possibly grim fate Luke would have should he lose to Vader and/or Palpatine.

Samuel wrote:What makes you think Luke's order won't inevitably become the same as the Jedi Order?

130 years or so after Luke establishes his order, we see that there is still a Skywalker Bloodline and JEdi families, which lead me to believe that many of Luke's changes to the Jedi order remained in place.

Darth Fanboy wrote:130 years or so after Luke establishes his order, we see that there is still a Skywalker Bloodline and JEdi families, which lead me to believe that many of Luke's changes to the Jedi order remained in place.

I've always wondered about this. As we saw in the OT, force ability is genetic, wouldn't it be in the Jedi's best interest to encourage reproduction, even if the children were raised creche style?

Jason L. Miles wrote: I've always wondered about this. As we saw in the OT, force ability is genetic, wouldn't it be in the Jedi's best interest to encourage reproduction, even if the children were raised creche style?

Apparently they considered that children were enough of an attachment risk, that they felt it was worth discourgaging. Plus the fact that they had their pick of candidates from the entire population of the galaxy. I don't think that the total number of Jedi was an issue for the Order until the Clone Wars occupied and killed so many of them.

Darth Fanboy wrote:that Anakin's training was the result of the Council's decision with Yoda dissenting.

Ultimately, Yoda went along with it. He had signifigant reservations about Anakin since the day he met him. But ultimately attempted to be there for him in the end.

In Dark Rendezvous, we get a good insight into Yoda's training with then Padawan Dooku. It appeared to be quite hands on, and we do see other instances of Yoda taking a personal interest in certain students including Dooku. Sometimes he is more direct in his instruction, other times he seems to get the student to learn the lesson on his or her own, such as the case when Dooku was going to break his own arm out of spite during a Jedi training game against Yoda, and then stopped realizing how petty his actions would be.

Perhaps by the time of the PT Yoda is near an implied "retirement"? And believes that Windu and the Council should be able to handle any problems with teaching on their own?

I'd hardly call Yoda "lazy" though.

An exaggeration admittedly.

Also, Yoda's influence wasn't great enough to deter the Jedi Council from permitting Anakin's training at the end of Episode One. A lot of influence does not necessairly mean total control.

You're right, "puppet" might have been the wrong word. But the Jedi Order has come to consider Yoda a role model. The Jedi that everyone should aspire to be.

Like I said earlier, I believe this was all part of his teaching in order to help Luke open his mind.

I think Yoda's attitude towards training the twins changed signifigantly during his self imposed exile on Dagobah. Back at the end of ROTS, Yoda still got along with Obi Won easily. During TESB, whenever Obi Won speaks through the Force, Yoda seems annoyed with him. I suspect he became disillusioned with the plan he and Obi Won had formed after ROTS.

Or perhaps he nows sees those rules as unecessary or even hindrances.

Basically yeah.

Honest question, you think that if Anakin had a similar experience like Luke had in the cave he might have come back?

Technically, Anakin did have the experience in the cave. When he attacked the Tusken Raider camp in revenge. Except that he opened up to Padme about the experience. While Luke spoke to Yoda about the encounter in the cave. That may have been the critical difference. Padme was Anakin's love, but not his teacher, and not well grasping of the Force.

Owen and Beru were killed by the Empire, and Vader killed Obi Wan, do you think that experience helped keep Luke from the Dark Side as well?

Oh yes, Anakin never personally experienced the Sith until the war started. The Galaxy was still run by the Republic. All of the "evil" he had been told about the Sith was never backed up by anything as far as he knew. In the end he came to believe the Jedi were evil! Luke had a far different experience. He saw first hand the ultimate result of Sith rule, the death, the war crimes. Luke saw first hand the Sith were no good at all. He was far, far more resistant to being turned than Anakin was as a result. He rebuked his Father's attempts to turn him in TESB and ROTJ, and even gave the Emperor himself the finger. This by no doubt came as a blow to Palpatine, who believed his strategy of turning Jedi to his side was foolproof and time tested.

I disagree that Yoda was trying to run away from any problems, and I really disagree with your statement that the terror was ultimately his responsibility.

I should say that's more what Yoda may have thought of himself. He did not run ultimately, and Palpatine fooled the entire Jedi Order, not just him. But he was extremely repentful after he failed to stop Palpatine in the Senate. Regardless of whether or not it was true, he probably believed everything was his fault.

They even kept the Jedi code did they not? Yoda even refers to Luke as the last of the Jedi, Luke refers to himself as such in Yoda's hut before he dies before Yoda corrects him, telling him that he has to confront Vader first.

Luke recovered as much of the code that probably made sense to him. Which to be fair to the Jedi, was mostly quite good. (And far superior to the teaching's of the Sith.) So his new order was not the Old Jedi Order, but a "New" Jedi Order.

Delusions of power? Hateful of the galaxy? Hateful of people around him? How so?

He seemed a lot less friendly to Obi Won when he was trying to have some input in his conversation with Luke. This contrasts to how open and professional he was to Obi Won for many years.

CaptHawkeye wrote: Perhaps by the time of the PT Yoda is near an implied "retirement"? And believes that Windu and the Council should be able to handle any problems with teaching on their own?

Could very well be, he dies from what I assume is natural causes in RoTJ and it may be the case that at the time of the PT he knows he has only a few decades left in his life. What little we know about Yoda's species indicates they are long lived, so Yoda might view his last 40-50 years the same way a human would look at their last 4-5.

I think Yoda's attitude towards training the twins changed signifigantly during his self imposed exile on Dagobah. Back at the end of ROTS, Yoda still got along with Obi Won easily. During TESB, whenever Obi Won speaks through the Force, Yoda seems annoyed with him. I suspect he became disillusioned with the plan he and Obi Won had formed after ROTS.

We see very little interaction between Obi Wan and Yodain TeSB, and I still suspect that Yoda's "annoyance" was little more than a show for Luke to help put the aspiring Jedi in his place. If Yoda truly had become disillusioned with the plan then why did he feel it necessary to remind Obi Wan that "No, there is another."

Technically, Anakin did have the experience in the cave. When he attacked the Tusken Raider camp in revenge. Except that he opened up to Padme about the experience. While Luke spoke to Yoda about the encounter in the cave. That may have been the critical difference. Padme was Anakin's love, but not his teacher, and not well grasping of the Force.

But the experience in the cave wasn't real, the slaughter of the Tuskens was very real and we see from Anakin's experiences in the EU that the memory of the event lingers with him.

Luke recovered as much of the code that probably made sense to him. Which to be fair to the Jedi, was mostly quite good. (And far superior to the teaching's of the Sith.) So his new order was not the Old Jedi Order, but a "New" Jedi Order.

Well, yeah it was a New JEdi Order, but it was partially based on the teachings of the old, it's a pretty obvious continuation.

He seemed a lot less friendly to Obi Won when he was trying to have some input in his conversation with Luke. This contrasts to how open and professional he was to Obi Won for many years.

You used the terms "Delusions of Power", "Hateful of the galaxy" and "Hateful of people around him" based on THAT?

There are plenty of reasons to expect the new Jedi Order to resemble the old, but few reasons to expect it to be identical. Luke has no obligation to make it identical. He may lack the ability to make it identical because he doesn't have all the information he needs. And he has a strong incentive NOT to make it identical, because the weaknesses of the old Jedi were a key factor in triggering twenty or thirty years of chaos in the galaxy.

So it will have some continuity (Luke will probably agree with the old Jedi that meditation is good and that letting your emotions dominate your life is bad). But that doesn't mean he's going to clone the old order in all its child-grabbing, chastity-vowing, self-denying aloof glory.

Simon_Jester wrote: But that doesn't mean he's going to clone the old order in all its child-grabbing, chastity-vowing, self-denying aloof glory.

Never said that he would, but I felt the need to point out the contiuation based on Hawkeye's earlier assertion about Luke creating a "new breed of Force user", which I read as him saying that the members of Luke's new order were not Jedi.

Jason L. Miles wrote:

Darth Fanboy wrote:130 years or so after Luke establishes his order, we see that there is still a Skywalker Bloodline and JEdi families, which lead me to believe that many of Luke's changes to the Jedi order remained in place.

I've always wondered about this. As we saw in the OT, force ability is genetic, wouldn't it be in the Jedi's best interest to encourage reproduction, even if the children were raised creche style?

Given the jedi's inherent distrust of the individual capacity for self cotnrol with the force, and the assumption that to stray from teh apth invites the dark side, I feel like they WOULDN'T want to encourage reproduction. twenty or thirty generations down the line you could have an AWFUL lot of force users running around causing mischeif, maybe celibacy was their way of self limiting their population?

The problem with that is that if it is genetic, why doesn't anyone clone Jedi?

Assorted problems associated with cloning? If we invoke the EU, people tried cloning Jedi, and they got pretty nasty results.

Samuel wrote:The problem with that is that if it is genetic, why doesn't anyone clone Jedi?

Well technically Palpatine did with C'Baoth who subsequently cloned Luke, and there were at least three generations of force-sensitive Dorsks (although being Khommite cloning was more of a necessity to them). Although I doubt that the Old Jedi Order would find cloning themselves acceptable when natural reproduction was already off limits. It's probably too unnatural to them and there's always the risk of the clone being a major headcase.

With regards to Force sensitivity being genetic, the only example in all of Star Wars I can come up with where the offspring of a Force Sensitive hasn't inherited the abilities of their parent(s) would be Hethrir's son Tigris. Otherwise we have many examples of force-sensitive parents having force-sensitive children. Below are a few examples.

-Skywalker Family
-Halcyon/Horn family
-Tyria Sarkin and son Doran Sarkin-Tainer
-Four generations of Darth Wyyrlok in the Legacy comics
-Sharad & A'Sharad Hett
-Marek family from Force Unleashed
-Ranik/Kam Solusar

Darth Fanboy wrote:

Samuel wrote:The problem with that is that if it is genetic, why doesn't anyone clone Jedi?

Well technically Palpatine did with C'Baoth who subsequently cloned Luke, and there were at least three generations of force-sensitive Dorsks (although being Khommite cloning was more of a necessity to them). Although I doubt that the Old Jedi Order would find cloning themselves acceptable when natural reproduction was already off limits. It's probably too unnatural to them and there's always the risk of the clone being a major headcase.

With regards to Force sensitivity being genetic, the only example in all of Star Wars I can come up with where the offspring of a Force Sensitive hasn't inherited the abilities of their parent(s) would be Hethrir's son Tigris. Otherwise we have many examples of force-sensitive parents having force-sensitive children. Below are a few examples.

-Skywalker Family
-Halcyon/Horn family
-Tyria Sarkin and son Doran Sarkin-Tainer
-Four generations of Darth Wyyrlok in the Legacy comics
-Sharad & A'Sharad Hett
-Marek family from Force Unleashed
-Ranik/Kam Solusar

The Planet of Twilight and Callista stated outright that it is possible to produce a non-sensitive invidual from a family full of Force-sensitives. Or if not non-sensitive, at least so weak that it's almost the same.

Darth Fanboy wrote: We see very little interaction between Obi Wan and Yodain TeSB, and I still suspect that Yoda's "annoyance" was little more than a show for Luke to help put the aspiring Jedi in his place. If Yoda truly had become disillusioned with the plan then why did he feel it necessary to remind Obi Wan that "No, there is another."

Perhaps Yoda always felt it was Leia who he should be training. Not Luke, since if he had been watching Luke through the Force, his impressions of him could not have been good.

But the experience in the cave wasn't real, the slaughter of the Tuskens was very real and we see from Anakin's experiences in the EU that the memory of the event lingers with him.

Luke's experience in the cave seemed very real to him when it happened. It was only after he saw himself in the mask did it occur to him it was a hallucination. The point of both instances was the same. The Jedi believed he was doing good and vanquishing evil, but ultimately did little more than encourage wanton violence. He didn't think about the situation.

You used the terms "Delusions of Power", "Hateful of the galaxy" and "Hateful of people around him" based on THAT?

Well, I believe Yoda did not trust the galaxy because after years of seclusion on Dagobah he has contributed absolutely nothing to the GCW. You'd think he would eventually have decided to start working with the Rebellion if he really felt any urge to help the Galaxy.

CaptHawkeye wrote:

But the experience in the cave wasn't real, the slaughter of the Tuskens was very real and we see from Anakin's experiences in the EU that the memory of the event lingers with him.

Luke's experience in the cave seemed very real to him when it happened. It was only after he saw himself in the mask did it occur to him it was a hallucination. The point of both instances was the same. The Jedi believed he was doing good and vanquishing evil, but ultimately did little more than encourage wanton violence. He didn't think about the situation.

Yeah, no. That isn't the point in either of those instances. Anakin's slaughter of the Tuskens was never, even to Anakin, viewed as "Jedi doing good'. (Honestly, if they had portrayed Anakin more in that fashion in regards to the event, it would have served the character better) Anakin and the audience understand that that is a moment of pure rage and hatred and vengeance, and that is the point of that. We also know from the TPM novelization, that Anakin doesn't view the Tuskens as evil.

With Luke in the cave, the point was that he was already dangerously close to following down the path his father took, and could very well become the next Vader in the act of trying to destroy him. Again, not 'Jedi do good', although in this instance closer, but still not the point.

You used the terms "Delusions of Power", "Hateful of the galaxy" and "Hateful of people around him" based on THAT?

Well, I believe Yoda did not trust the galaxy because after years of seclusion on Dagobah he has contributed absolutely nothing to the GCW. You'd think he would eventually have decided to start working with the Rebellion if he really felt any urge to help the Galaxy.

Again, no. Prequels aside, Yoda is on Dagobah and in hiding because, if he shows himself, Vader will hunt him down and kill him and then he would not be there to train Luke or the other 'hope' when the time was right. Even, Obi-Wan, who was far easier to track down, was not prepared to come out of hiding to help the Rebellion, and the only reason he did so was because Luke finally showed signs of being ready to take up the mantle of the Jedi. Frankly, the Rebellion without a powerful Jedi, in their prime, with a special tie to Vader and the Emperor, was a useless tool that would have accomplished nothing. Obi Wan knew this, as well Yoda. That is the reason they didn't help the Rebellion, they would have been of no help at all. It has nothing to do with cynicism towards the galaxy.

Tiriol wrote:

Darth Fanboy wrote:

Samuel wrote:The problem with that is that if it is genetic, why doesn't anyone clone Jedi?

Well technically Palpatine did with C'Baoth who subsequently cloned Luke, and there were at least three generations of force-sensitive Dorsks (although being Khommite cloning was more of a necessity to them). Although I doubt that the Old Jedi Order would find cloning themselves acceptable when natural reproduction was already off limits. It's probably too unnatural to them and there's always the risk of the clone being a major headcase.

With regards to Force sensitivity being genetic, the only example in all of Star Wars I can come up with where the offspring of a Force Sensitive hasn't inherited the abilities of their parent(s) would be Hethrir's son Tigris. Otherwise we have many examples of force-sensitive parents having force-sensitive children. Below are a few examples.

-Skywalker Family
-Halcyon/Horn family
-Tyria Sarkin and son Doran Sarkin-Tainer
-Four generations of Darth Wyyrlok in the Legacy comics
-Sharad & A'Sharad Hett
-Marek family from Force Unleashed
-Ranik/Kam Solusar

The Planet of Twilight and Callista stated outright that it is possible to produce a non-sensitive invidual from a family full of Force-sensitives. Or if not non-sensitive, at least so weak that it's almost the same.

They also cover that in Outbound Flight IIRC. One child being a Jedi and one not being Force sensitive at all.

That said, the idea that a Jedi parent(s) have Jedi children seems to be a brain bug picked up from the movies themselves. (Vader/Luke/Leia)

Themightytom wrote:

Jason L. Miles wrote:

Darth Fanboy wrote:130 years or so after Luke establishes his order, we see that there is still a Skywalker Bloodline and JEdi families, which lead me to believe that many of Luke's changes to the Jedi order remained in place.

I've always wondered about this. As we saw in the OT, force ability is genetic, wouldn't it be in the Jedi's best interest to encourage reproduction, even if the children were raised creche style?

Given the jedi's inherent distrust of the individual capacity for self cotnrol with the force, and the assumption that to stray from teh apth invites the dark side, I feel like they WOULDN'T want to encourage reproduction. twenty or thirty generations down the line you could have an AWFUL lot of force users running around causing mischeif, maybe celibacy was their way of self limiting their population?

Again, the movie brain bug IMO. The movie shows one special set of twins born from Vader, who's wife we know not to be FS. In fact, the movies show that being FS is random and not genetic, otherwise Shmi should have been a FS. (Yeah yeah, Will of the Force... I know.) And the Jedi temple would be packed with Jedi children that were born from Jedi parents... oh wait.
Assuming that Jedi will automatically have FS kids is quite a leap.

Havok wrote:Again, the movie brain bug IMO. The movie shows one special set of twins born from Vader, who's wife we know not to be FS. In fact, the movies show that being FS is random and not genetic, otherwise Shmi should have been a FS.

That's assuming both that that trait is dominant, and that Shmi was telling the truth about there not being a father. I believe that as much as I believe Mary. For all we know, Anakin's father could be Palpatine himself.

(Yeah yeah, Will of the Force... I know.) And the Jedi temple would be packed with Jedi children that were born from Jedi parents... oh wait.
Assuming that Jedi will automatically have FS kids is quite a leap.

I never said it was automatic, but the evidence we have from the EU strongly implies it. Beyond that, if Jedi are discouraged from having sexual relationships strongly enough, it may never have come up (in a publicly admitted fashion).

Havok wrote:Again, the movie brain bug IMO. The movie shows one special set of twins born from Vader, who's wife we know not to be FS. In fact, the movies show that being FS is random and not genetic, otherwise Shmi should have been a FS. (Yeah yeah, Will of the Force... I know.) And the Jedi temple would be packed with Jedi children that were born from Jedi parents... oh wait.
Assuming that Jedi will automatically have FS kids is quite a leap.

It may be that Force sensitivity is correlated with a certain complex of genes. Non-sensitives may have sensitive children, but the probability is low (which is why the galaxy isn't awash in them), while sensitives are more likely to have sensitive children.

The fact that a nonsensitive ancestor can have a sensitive child isn't proof, one way or the other.

Tiriol wrote: The Planet of Twilight and Callista stated outright that it is possible to produce a non-sensitive invidual from a family full of Force-sensitives. Or if not non-sensitive, at least so weak that it's almost the same.

Is there anything to the exact quote that would indicate that Force sensitivity isn't genetic?