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I was wondering, with Karen Traviss' material supposedly being so messed up by the T-Canon Season 2 of the Clone Wars and her own doubts about the legitimacy of her writings thanks to the retcon, what tier of canon does her shit fall under now? Is it rendered S-Canon or does it remain C-Canon?

hopefully it will be rendered n-canon, although that might piss of the fanboys at TFN.

Darth Yan wrote:hopefully it will be rendered n-canon, although that might piss of the fanboys at TFN.

And this is a problem?

While I haven't really read her work, going off descriptions of it here a lot of it should probably be de-canonized. And yeah, one of the reasons I like the Clone Wars series is that it has been subtly interfering with her work almost from the start.

The Romulan Republic wrote:And yeah, one of the reasons I like the Clone Wars series is that it has been subtly interfering with her work almost from the start.

It has? In what way? I'm mildly curious, even though I haven't been following CW or Karen Traviss.

Stofsk wrote:

The Romulan Republic wrote:And yeah, one of the reasons I like the Clone Wars series is that it has been subtly interfering with her work almost from the start.

It has? In what way? I'm mildly curious, even though I haven't been following CW or Karen Traviss.

Apparently in Karen Traviss' Novel she wrote that Spar/Mandalore the Resurrector and his Mandalorians from Abel Pena's comics were just Republic Propaganda and that no Mandalorians fought on the side of the Confederacy against the Republic and they were all biding their time for a new Mandalore. In contrast one of the major parts of the Season 2 Trailer was the revealing of some Mandalorians who specifically state their intent to kill the Jedi and one is seen with Obi-Wans lightsaber later there's also a new book specifically about the CW that says that at the time a large number of Mandos had given up their weapons and armour for pacifism. The latter part was the one she specifically mention as what drove her away, not surprising since she built her fan cult around the uber Mandalorians that can kill anyone.

That just pisses all over the marvel comics with Fenn Shysa. Shysa said he fought with the sepps, and the Mandalorians have always hated the Jedi. They have never been honorable either. Just look at Kotor #42. In that issue, the Mandalorians herd the Cathar into a lake, and then when a single soldier tries to stop the massacre, the commander says "they dishonered us" before having the Cathar and the single soldier shot. Honorable and noble my ass.

And this is a problem?

Even if it is rendered Non-canon the fandalorians still won't quit. Razzy, McEwok, Lt.Nowis and all the other dipshits will still claim the 3,000,000 is accurate, even if Leland Chee says "nope, not anymore." It's pathetic.

Darth Yan wrote:

And this is a problem?

Even if it is rendered Non-canon the fandalorians still won't quit. Razzy, McEwok, Lt.Nowis and all the other dipshits will still claim the 3,000,000 is accurate, even if Leland Chee says "nope, not anymore." It's pathetic.

And?

Really, and your point? These idiots are the same as any rabid fanbase. And really, it is said mindless rabid retard that buys SW drivel that allowed Travis to go from meh to frothing old maid with a quest. Really, the few yaboos at TFN who screech are hardly the ones to blame or get disgusted at.

True, but if more critique of the fanwhores was allowed, then the amount of die hard fanwhores might shrink to the point of forcing Lucasfilm to ensure quality.

General Schatten wrote:I was wondering, with Karen Traviss' material supposedly being so messed up by the T-Canon Season 2 of the Clone Wars and her own doubts about the legitimacy of her writings thanks to the retcon, what tier of canon does her shit fall under now? Is it rendered S-Canon or does it remain C-Canon?

It's still C-canon until stated otherwise. My guess is that it'll probably stay at C-canon level. However, as the number of events contradicted by other sources rises, the number of events that are considered a part of continuity will continue to dwindle.

I'm not sure y'all are rememberin it right, but she did talk about how most of the Mandalorians were fighting for the Seps with the notable exceptions of Skirata and Vau.

Darth Yan wrote:True, but if more critique of the fanwhores was allowed, then the amount of die hard fanwhores might shrink to the point of forcing Lucasfilm to ensure quality.

Lucasfilm is a money making enterprise. Ensuring quality for only the largest discrete set of fans is enough to get by.

As a logical exercise, what happens when two pieces of canon at a given level cannot be logically reconciled? I'm not talking about situations that are difficult to parse without coming up with wacky excuses, but about stuff that's just plain impossible to resolve. Like, say, novelist A saying there are X soldiers in an army while novelist B says there are 1000X soldiers in the same army.

My natural instinct is to dismiss whichever piece of 'canon' seems less probable, or (if practical) whichever piece contradicts the most other material at the same level. If one novel contradicts five, and all are at the same canonical level, something is wrong with the one.

Simon_Jester wrote:As a logical exercise, what happens when two pieces of canon at a given level cannot be logically reconciled?

This isn't supposed to happen, at least not at the "C" level or higher. Every novel they publish, for example, is supposed to be consistent -- enough to pass the laugh test, at least -- with all of those which have come before it. For a new novel to get published with clearly and obviously contradictory content, in theory, either the new material or the old will have to be demoted to apocryphal status.

At least, that's how I understood things. Has it ever happened like that?

Ghost Rider wrote:Really, and your point? These idiots are the same as any rabid fanbase. And really, it is said mindless rabid retard that buys SW drivel that allowed Travis to go from meh to frothing old maid with a quest. Really, the few yaboos at TFN who screech are hardly the ones to blame or get disgusted at.

Well, actually, they're not. Maybe you have a wider experience of these things than I, but considering quite a few of them are mentioned in the acknowledgement section of the Essential Atlas, I think they're a bit more than "the same idiots as any rabid fanbase."

TC Pilot wrote:

Ghost Rider wrote:Really, and your point? These idiots are the same as any rabid fanbase. And really, it is said mindless rabid retard that buys SW drivel that allowed Travis to go from meh to frothing old maid with a quest. Really, the few yaboos at TFN who screech are hardly the ones to blame or get disgusted at.

Well, actually, they're not. Maybe you have a wider experience of these things than I, but considering quite a few of them are mentioned in the acknowledgement section of the Essential Atlas, I think they're a bit more than "the same idiots as any rabid fanbase."

One day, I will ask Adam of his great influence on the SW fanbase at the time of his acknowledgement. I'm sure he has stories where he steered the course of the fanbase, along with Curtis and Mike. Until the mindless horde decided they were too mathy or whatever term one wants to use.

Again, it's not the few names that authors go "Thanks for being a friend and I enjoyed your input", it is the mindless fucking horde that want something they think is "STAR WARS" and that's what they buy. Same for any fanbase and industry.

SCRawl wrote:This isn't supposed to happen, at least not at the "C" level or higher. Every novel they publish, for example, is supposed to be consistent -- enough to pass the laugh test, at least -- with all of those which have come before it. For a new novel to get published with clearly and obviously contradictory content, in theory, either the new material or the old will have to be demoted to apocryphal status.

At least, that's how I understood things. Has it ever happened like that?

Both sources remain canonical (unless officially declared otherwise). Whichever version of the event that has more support remains in continuity while the contradicted version does not.

The ensuing debate about which version of the event is "canon" is really a debate about which version remains in continuity, since both sources remain canon.

If it's out of continuity, it IS out of canon for all practical purposes.

*Bursts in, drawing dual DL-44s*

This is a Hijack!

Does anyone know which version of the Battle of Coruscant is considered Canon or in continuity?

The Clone Wars animated version and the LoE version are very different. Unless we're to believe that Obi-Wan and Anakin stopped on Nelvaan after learning that the Galactic Capital was under attack and the Chancellor had been kidnapped.

Darth Yan wrote:hopefully it will be rendered n-canon, although that might piss of the fanboys at TFN.

lol

you don't get out much, do you?

No I guess not. They just seem so reasonable most of the time.

Darksider wrote:*Bursts in, drawing dual DL-44s*

This is a Hijack!

Does anyone know which version of the Battle of Coruscant is considered Canon or in continuity?

The Clone Wars animated version and the LoE version are very different. Unless we're to believe that Obi-Wan and Anakin stopped on Nelvaan after learning that the Galactic Capital was under attack and the Chancellor had been kidnapped.

Well normally you would try to take the source closest to Lucas. So which one did he have more involvement in? IMO, I would go LoE since that is the direct preceding story to the ROTS novel and it was penned by the same author, who had more or less, direct authority to put his own unique touches on ROTS.

Havok wrote:[
Well normally you would try to take the source closest to Lucas. So which one did he have more involvement in? IMO, I would go LoE since that is the direct preceding story to the ROTS novel and it was penned by the same author, who had more or less, direct authority to put his own unique touches on ROTS.

It wasn't. Revenge of the Sith was novelisation by Matthew Stover. The novels preceding and succeeding it: Labyrinth of Evil and Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader were written by James Luceno.

Still iirc, The Clone Wars cartoon was based on an early draft of LoE, LoE also contains the references toMmace Windu fighting grievous atop a train and the incident on Cato Neimoidoa which are refenced in the RotS novel (and in the case of the latter, the film version as well)

Oh shit. I thought Luceno did all three.