StarDestroyer.Net BBS

What the thread topic says.

I was switching back and fourth from MNF and TESB on Spike and I happened to catch the scene when Veers sees Vader's helmet lowering. For some reason I had the thought of that one scene setting the tone for all the weakness we see in Vader in the remaining 4 movies. His physical weakness as well as his mental weakness. Up until that point, Vader could have just been a badass in a badass suit of armor. (novelization aside) And I would have liked to have seen that Vader in ROTJ and the PT.

Obviously, Lucas had the idea of what Vader was/would become and it would have happened one way or another, but this is a wish thread.

I had the opposite reaction as a child; it made Vader look like a really fucked up, evil guy. I didn't know he was in a hyperbaric chamber and shit; I just thought he was hideously deformed and terrifying. Even Veers was curious, and scared Vader would notice him looking. It added to his aura of fear and evil.

I agree that that scene could have done that, but from that point on, Vader gets weaker and more pathetic. I guess that is how I wanted Vader to be after that scene.

Honestly, that is the way I could have felt when I first saw it, but the memory of that event is lost to me.

Havok wrote:I agree that that scene could have done that, but from that point on, Vader gets weaker and more pathetic. I guess that is how I wanted Vader to be after that scene.

Honestly, that is the way I could have felt when I first saw it, but the memory of that event is lost to me.

Maybe your memory is playing tricks on you. Everyone I knew felt that Vader was at least as menacing after TESB as he was after ANH, if not more so.

Anyway, things I would leave out of the OT:

1) Jarring and inappropriate injection of slapstick comedy into serious battle scenes. Contrary to popular belief, this problem did not start with TPM. There were touches of it during Solo's escape from Hoth in TESB, and of course, there was the Battle of Endor.

2) Some of the "Special Edition" changes, such as Greedo shooting first and the extended Jabba's Palace musical numbers.

* The ISD near-collision in TESB. It's one of those things that's written purely for "wow" factor, and if the writer had thought about it for more than two seconds, would've nixed it as being too unbelievable to leave in;

* The Special Edition changes to Mos Eisley in ANH. They're gaudy and inappropriate - basically they just don't fit in with the scene;

* The destruction of Executor in RotJ. It was cheap. A better solution would be to have her blown up in the explosion of the DS2, perhaps.

* Vader's "alert my Star Destroyer to prepare for my arrival" sequence in TESB. It's so damn unencessary, it doesn't sound as good as his brisk "bring my shuttle", the Executor is the wrong colour, and they use RotJ stock footage of Vader arriving on the DS2! Just crap.

I'm not sure which is better, "Bring my shuttle" or his new line. The former suggests a simmering rage and just sounds awkward, while the new line sounds sad, which I think fits better with his behavior for the rest of the film.

Jabba's scene from ANH should definately get removed. It does nothing but repeat what Greedo already said, makes Greedo into an idiot for trying to kill him, and undermines Jabba when Han steps on his tale. Same for the Mos Eisley intro and Hayden in ROTJ.

Most of the SE changes weaken the films, I think, aside from the purely technical improvements. They throw off the pacing, are out-of-place, and look kind of dated today in any case. And most of RotJ could go or be done better than they were, in my opinion. But really, there's just something too... Quintessential to me about both ANH and ESB for me to want to propose any changes.

Having a quick look at the helmet lowering scene again I think any lessening of the bad ass factor is because we now all just see a burnt Hadyn ... before the prequels we were getting a glimpse of something we hadn't seen before and hence just like Veers kinda hopeful that Vader wouldn't notice.

I can't think of much to change in the original edits but most of the post 1995 edits just make me want to cry...

Remove all the inserted cg critters and buildings in Mos Eisley... it looks more fake than the original Mos Eisley looked empty, the CG of the Outrider taking off and some of the overhead shots of the Falcon and Docking Bay 94 look ok though.

HAN SHOT FIRST

The scene with Jabba in Mos Eisley in ANH looks good on paper but the first cg jabba was awful and the replacement somehow worse... remove the stepping-on-tail bit and change Jabba's dialogue to a more menacing one (he just about seems to be pleading with Han whereas Han should be talking his way out of a one way ticket to the Sarlaac).

The fight over the Death Star changes are good in that they look great unlike some of the other cg but bad in that the old model shots were awesome in and of themselves...

Just mentioned this to someone who pointed me back to the dvd active website with it's comparison of the dvd releases

a new image has appeared...



That change can go too...

TC Pilot wrote:I'm not sure which is better, "Bring my shuttle" or his new line. The former suggests a simmering rage and just sounds awkward, while the new line sounds sad, which I think fits better with his behavior for the rest of the film.

You are fucking nuts. This is something which Vympel and I can completely agree on.

"Bring my shuttle." is delivered in such a fierce way that you know, as you pointed out, Vader is beyond fucking pissed. He would crash Bespin into the gas giant below if the thought crossed his mind. It is short, sweet and to the point.

"Alert my Star Destroyer to prepare for my arrival." First, what the fuck does that even mean? Does he want a parade when he gets there? To be greeted properly? We know Vader doesn't like that shit. He just wants to get down to choking some officers.
Second, he is Darth Fucking Vader. You don't think his Star Destroyer isn't 'prepared for his arrival'?

More simply, "bring my shuttle" is terse no-nonsense dialogue, while "alert my star destroyer to prepare for my arrival" sounds pointlessly wordy, which is not Darth Vader's character. It seems as if it was added just so they would have an excuse to add the term "Star Destroyer", perhaps as a nod to the moronic EU people who love the term and think that it should apply to all larger warships.

Havok wrote:"Bring my shuttle." is delivered in such a fierce way that you know, as you pointed out, Vader is beyond fucking pissed. He would crash Bespin into the gas giant below if the thought crossed his mind. It is short, sweet and to the point.

And, as I also said, it doesn't fit with his behavior in the rest of the movie. Where's the rage when he's talking with Luke? Where's the rage when the Falcon gets away and he simply walks away? Granted, the "temper tantrum" is a product of the PT, so maybe I'm just misinterpreting Vader's behavior.

Going against the grain a bit, I prefered most of the SE Mos Eisley, it actually looked like a busy space port with people and things coming in from other parts of the galaxy. The first CGI Jabba was trite though. Greebo shooting first was perhaps intended to make Solo seem more competent and cool under pressure. The Yavin and Death Star segments were all in all less jarring, while the CGI lizards the Stormtroopers were riding on were better than the stuffed mannequins they replaced.

Splitting hairs over what Vader was supposed to say in TESB aside, the Executor being rendered a dull grey was a pretty sloppy segment that was hard to ignore. The enhancements to Hoth and Bespin were the most well judged and seamless. I also didn't mind the CGI Sarlac from RotJ nor the party segment.

I much more actively despised the annoying changes made to ET, especially the infamous decision of replacing the Federal agent's guns with walkie talkies (which must've pushed Trey Parker and Matt Stone over the edge as well).

The scene with Jabba in Mos Eisley in ANH looks good on paper but the first cg jabba was awful and the replacement somehow worse... remove the stepping-on-tail bit and change Jabba's dialogue to a more menacing one (he just about seems to be pleading with Han whereas Han should be talking his way out of a one way ticket to the Sarlaac).

In relation to the stepping-on-tail bit, IIRC they actually had to do this to make the scene work at all. Otherwise it couldn't be done without some sort of weird clipping issues. It's in the making of feature on the VHS tapes, I believe.

As for Vader's dialog, Vader should be pissed that he just lost Luke. It's no contradiction with his character to get over that when actually trying to persuade his son to come with him later.

Vympel wrote:As for Vader's dialog, Vader should be pissed that he just lost Luke. It's no contradiction with his character to get over that when actually trying to persuade his son to come with him later.

There's also the bit immediately after Luke jumps where Vader just lets his hand drop, which I interpret more as resigned failure than any kind of rage. To be honest, I think this is a byproduct of the PT, where "Angry Vader" = "smashing things."

Vympel wrote:* The destruction of Executor in RotJ. It was cheap. A better solution would be to have her blown up in the explosion of the DS2, perhaps.

Not sure I agree. Remember, without the destruction of the Executor you basically have the whole Rebel fleet doing nothing but sitting around and getting shot to pieces until Our Heroes save the day. It would make them seem incompetent and useless*.

I think that the Rebels need some noticeable victories in open naval combat in that movie for dramatic reasons.

*Or, if you prefer, more incompetent and useless.

Big Orange wrote:Going against the grain a bit, I prefered most of the SE Mos Eisley, it actually looked like a busy space port with people and things coming in from other parts of the galaxy. The first CGI Jabba was trite though. Greebo shooting first was perhaps intended to make Solo seem more competent and cool under pressure.

How does Han look more competent as an outlaw smuggler/gunman for waiting for someone to shoot him at point blank range? Having Han shoot first makes Han look ruthless and competent; having him dodge at point blank range and then shoot makes him look lucky.

Simon_Jester wrote:

Vympel wrote:* The destruction of Executor in RotJ. It was cheap. A better solution would be to have her blown up in the explosion of the DS2, perhaps.

Not sure I agree. Remember, without the destruction of the Executor you basically have the whole Rebel fleet doing nothing but sitting around and getting shot to pieces until Our Heroes save the day. It would make them seem incompetent and useless*.

As opposed to making the enemy seem even more incompetent and useless?

I think that the Rebels need some noticeable victories in open naval combat in that movie for dramatic reasons.

No, I think that the Rebels need to be on the verge of being completely wiped out in open naval combat in that movie for dramatic reasons.

Darth Wong wrote:

I think that the Rebels need some noticeable victories in open naval combat in that movie for dramatic reasons.

No, I think that the Rebels need to be on the verge of being completely wiped out in open naval combat in that movie for dramatic reasons.

Out of curiosity, you don't think the Battle of Endor depicted the desperation of the Rebels? If so, how would you have changed it?

Stofsk wrote:

Darth Wong wrote:

I think that the Rebels need some noticeable victories in open naval combat in that movie for dramatic reasons.

No, I think that the Rebels need to be on the verge of being completely wiped out in open naval combat in that movie for dramatic reasons.

Out of curiosity, you don't think the Battle of Endor depicted the desperation of the Rebels? If so, how would you have changed it?

Take a cue from ANH. Instead of showing the Rebel fighters consistently beating Imperial fighters, show them getting inexorably wiped out, their numbers steadily decreasing. Same with the capships. And why the fuck does Admiral Ackbar's flagship appear to be unscathed? Half the Rebel ships should be disabled or destroyed by enemy fire, with the others desperately trying to stay alive. The explosion of the Death Star should spare them the final killing blow, instead of seeming like the maraschino cherry on top of a stirring victory all-round.

Generally, nearly all battles include heavy bias for the Empire - or at least, it looks like that to me.

Let the Stormtroopers kick more ass (especially during the battle of Hoth, which is wasted with this horrible Snowspeeder-stuff) and make the Imperial Navy more menancing - all they do is not catching the Falcon, eing disabled by an ion cannon and being wasted by the Rebels at Endor.

Would this improve the movie?
Well, we already have a lot of tension, but this could add even more of it - Hoth did it nicely, but during the escape from the Death Star, it had to be pointed out that they let them escape.

Darth Wong wrote: Take a cue from ANH. Instead of showing the Rebel fighters consistently beating Imperial fighters, show them getting inexorably wiped out, their numbers steadily decreasing. Same with the capships. And why the fuck does Admiral Ackbar's flagship appear to be unscathed? Half the Rebel ships should be disabled or destroyed by enemy fire, with the others desperately trying to stay alive. The explosion of the Death Star should spare them the final killing blow, instead of seeming like the maraschino cherry on top of a stirring victory all-round.

So how do you justify the Rebel fleet you know not being totally wiped out? Even after the DSII goes, if the Imperials having been winning all along, why don't they continue and wipe out the rebels in vengeance for the DSII going up?

Vympel wrote:

The scene with Jabba in Mos Eisley in ANH looks good on paper but the first cg jabba was awful and the replacement somehow worse... remove the stepping-on-tail bit and change Jabba's dialogue to a more menacing one (he just about seems to be pleading with Han whereas Han should be talking his way out of a one way ticket to the Sarlaac).

In relation to the stepping-on-tail bit, IIRC they actually had to do this to make the scene work at all. Otherwise it couldn't be done without some sort of weird clipping issues. It's in the making of feature on the VHS tapes, I believe.

yeah in the orginal shot Harrison Ford walked behind the human stand-in for Jabba, so when the inserted the CGI Jabba in there it looked like he (Ford that is) walked thru Jabba's tail, so they desided to make him step on it to make the scene look better.

Any and all scenes that can lead to the conclusion that turbolasers are somehow not subluminal "bolts" of "energy." In particular:

• Damage-before-impact scene(s) in ESB (though I could let these slide, since they're not implicitly part of this debacle)
• Lasers not "falling away" from the firing X-wing as it pitched upward in ROTJ

Yes, I'm still annoyed about this being accepted canon after over five years posting here.

On the other hand, I would also be content with changing the scenes to actually reflect beam weapons rather than "energy bolts." But this thread is about what we would remove, not what we would change.

Crazedwraith wrote:So how do you justify the Rebel fleet you know not being totally wiped out? Even after the DSII goes, if the Imperials having been winning all along, why don't they continue and wipe out the rebels in vengeance for the DSII going up?

We know why: Imperial morale was shot, and Pellaeon, being the coward he was, illegally ordered a retreat, causing the fleet to rout.

In any case, the Rebel fleet was completely trashed by the battle. I don't know the exact percent, but something like 2/3 of the fleet was knocked out, and that's not even counting damaged-but-still-combat-worthy ships.

TC Pilot wrote:

Crazedwraith wrote:So how do you justify the Rebel fleet you know not being totally wiped out? Even after the DSII goes, if the Imperials having been winning all along, why don't they continue and wipe out the rebels in vengeance for the DSII going up?

We know why: Imperial morale was shot, and Pellaeon, being the coward he was, illegally ordered a retreat, causing the fleet to rout.

Thrawn posited that the Emperor was exerting a subtle influence which I think has been attributed to battle meditation. When he died, this influence would have also vacated.

In any case, the Rebel fleet was completely trashed by the battle. I don't know the exact percent, but something like 2/3 of the fleet was knocked out, and that's not even counting damaged-but-still-combat-worthy ships.

Source? I thought that the Truce of Bakura put the figure at a 1/3 being out of commission, but if I'm wrong I could stand to be enlightened.