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From Ch 8 of the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook:
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rcrierie/ ... RebCh8.htm


Though not large when compared with heavy manufacturing bases or safe worlds, Echo Base Hoth is a busy place, teeming with representa tives of most branches of both the civil and military government. There are well over 1,000 government officials on Hoth: high-level civil servants, their assistants, diplomats, planners, and the other functionaries crucial to the operation of a galaxy-spanning government in exile, There are almost as many high-level military and Intelligence officers on Both, keeping the war on track.

Here's my question: If the Rebellion was such a small operation, then why
does it need over 1,000 government functionaries? A government-in-exile,
my ass! It was just a continued employment program for corrupt senators
who lost their seats, who relied on the youthful naiviety of such people
as Dak and various others to keep their lifestyle of luxury.

This PoV is further borne out by what happened after the Emperor was dead;
the New Republic was an ineffectual government, that couldn't find the
WILL to defeat an obviously hostile force, instead fucking around with
negotiations long past the point of no-return.

Sure the Rebellion/NR were corrupt, they were a terrorist force who overthrew the legitmate government (Empire) because they viewed the Old Republic through rose-tinted glasses (have you ever heard a Rebel say bad things about the Republic or the Jedi?)

Was there anything bad about the Jedi? Besides Anakin? lol

The Jedi were inneffective, lazy, oppressive, above the law, all that.

The Jedi were inneffective, lazy, oppressive, above the law, all that

Yes indeed they cut somone-down in a bar and no one does anything? How would you react if you where in a bar and a fellow walked in flashed a badge and said don't police business and promtly shot the bar-tender?

Mr Bean wrote:

The Jedi were inneffective, lazy, oppressive, above the law, all that

Yes indeed they cut somone-down in a bar and no one does anything? How would you react if you where in a bar and a fellow walked in flashed a badge and said don't police business and promtly shot the bar-tender?

If you are referring to Episode II in which Obi-Wan strikes the bounty hunter, you are in a way correct. However, you miss the idea that Jedi are highly respected in the Old Republic. You don't want to disrespect the Jedi, the sworn protectors of the people of the Republic. Most people, and most likely I (from what history we've seen) would trust the Jedi.

As for ineffective, I think not. Considering they held the peace for 4,000 years, that's an accomplishment in itself. I'd like to see one COUNTRY that can claim that for it's history on earth, let alone a galaxy.

Lazy? How can you be lazy if you devote your life to peace and order, and for 4,000 years succeed at it. How can you be lazy if you dedicate your childhood to the training of the ways of the Jedi, then even more years as a Padawan Learner. Excuse me, but where are you simple facts as to why they are lazy?

Oppresive? Hmmmm..... if by oppresive you mean settling disputes, keeping the peace, acting as ambassadors for the senate, and a number of other diplomatic and peace keeping functions, well yes then they are oppresive. Just what dictionary oppresive shows up in under those terms I'd like to see.

Above the law? Sure, Count Dooku was above the law. SAY WHAT?!? The Republic realized Dooku was a Jedi but also realized what he did was WRONG. What he was organizing was WRONG, thus, the Senate took action to rectify the problem. (Their solution was a bad choice and eventually led to their downfall, but none the less, they did go after a Jedi. I don't believe that is "above the law."

Mr Bean wrote:

The Jedi were inneffective, lazy, oppressive, above the law, all that

Yes indeed they cut somone-down in a bar and no one does anything? How would you react if you where in a bar and a fellow walked in flashed a badge and said don't police business and promtly shot the bar-tender?

Not quite accurate analogy Bean. How would you react if two police officers rushed into a bar looking for someone. The suspect tries to sneak up on one of the officers while his partner is searching for the suspect. Right before the suspect can get the head shot off the officer whirls around and shoots him in the hand. The officer and his partner the drag teh suspect away, flash a badge and say Police business, everyone back to your drinks AND most of the folk there are not exactly doing legal things (mr Deathstick?)

See the difference?

Yeah, but Jedi are users of the Light Side with strict discipline. They can't be evil. They can't do anything that is wrong. And after several millenia of Jedi on Coruscant, you don't think the people would trust them? Apparantly, Anakin was different because he was not trained at birth. Had he been trained at birth, he probably would have never crossed over to the Dark Side. Plus, in the SW galaxy, such incidents are common. And this is taken out of context with the situation. Zam was sneaking up on Obi-Wan and he defended himself. She had a blaster drawn and was obviously going to murder him. Even in today's society, defending oneself is perfectly acceptable. And they were ineffective? Hell, I'd love to have people that could say to someone, "You will go home and re-think your life," and the person actually does it. Imagine if cops today were able to do that. Imagine how many people would be out of prison just because of an attitude adjustment. Lazy? I don't see any signs of laziness other than using the Force to move things around. LOL Above the law? How? Oppressive??? How are Jedi oppressive? Did Obi-Wan mess things up in the bar or anywhere else? Did they just go rampaging through the city, blasting things up, slicing people, pushing people out of the way, causing general disorder? They just walked around like everyone else.

Weird how we all composed and posted very similar responses around the same time.

I mean inneffective in that they've taken the roles of the galaxy's peacekeepers but they can't do it, hence Palpatine has an excuse to make the clones.
They're inneffectiveness and their lazyness stems from their arrogance which is plainly seen especially in RotJ, they're oppresive because they commandeer Force users and train them, and impose silly rules on even people like Anakin, who are bound to snap.
And even slashing a sleasy bartender is against the law in any civilized country, they're not even police officers either!

MKSheppard wrote:From Ch 8 of the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook:
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rcrierie/ ... RebCh8.htm


Though not large when compared with heavy manufacturing bases or safe worlds, Echo Base Hoth is a busy place, teeming with representa tives of most branches of both the civil and military government. There are well over 1,000 government officials on Hoth: high-level civil servants, their assistants, diplomats, planners, and the other functionaries crucial to the operation of a galaxy-spanning government in exile, There are almost as many high-level military and Intelligence officers on Both, keeping the war on track.

Here's my question: If the Rebellion was such a small operation, then why
does it need over 1,000 government functionaries? A government-in-exile,
my ass! It was just a continued employment program for corrupt senators
who lost their seats, who relied on the youthful naiviety of such people
as Dak and various others to keep their lifestyle of luxury.

This PoV is further borne out by what happened after the Emperor was dead;
the New Republic was an ineffectual government, that couldn't find the
WILL to defeat an obviously hostile force, instead fucking around with
negotiations long past the point of no-return.

The Rebellion was a galaxy-wide operation, so 1,000 government officials would seem appropriate. Also, wasn't Echo Base Hoth one of the Rebellion's main bases?

And even if you mean the cantina in ANH, it was a very similar situation. Dr. Evazan or Ponda Baba...whoever it was struck at Luke. Obi-Wan Kenobi was defending his friend and himself from further attacks. And basically everyone in that bar was a shady character...no one seemed to mind Han Solo blasting Greedo. It's surprising that people don't care about others getting killed, but hate to have droids in the cantina. lol

To be fair to the Jedi, there was really no need for massive Jedi involvement in keeping the peace. The Jedi were fine up until Palpy started manipultaing thing, creating a separatists movement that was far too large for the Jedi to deal with, in essence, Palpy CREATED the problem that REQUIRED a clone army to deal with.

As far as the Jedi being arrogant, etc. Sure, what else is going to happen to an organiztion that has been unchallenged in their superiorty for MILLENNIA?? OF COURSE, they started getting soft. Who is to say that that is exactly what the Sith were waiting for, for teh Jedi to become complacent and self involved. Giving them the opportunity to strike.


I think that the Jedi were doing a fine job UNTIL the Sith plot began to unfurl, and why not, the Sith plot was created preciely to strike at the weaknesses of the Jedi and bring themsleves to power.

We cannot measure the worth of the Jedi by the state they are in during the prequels because they are already in the trap by then. If we did not see the OT would we even SUSPECT that a purge was on the way?

Corrupt Old republic --> corrupt Rebellion --> corrupt New Republic

The cycle continues without any sign of fixing the problem.

It's kind of like our present gov't.

I mean inneffective in that they've taken the roles of the galaxy's peacekeepers but they can't do it, hence Palpatine has an excuse to make the clones.

They couldn't do it because they had to be authorized by the Senate to do anything major, diplomatic, etc. But I believe they were allowed to do local police actions. And wtf is this about their incompetence? They sure as hell can be peacekeepers. Two Jedi alone posed a huge threat to the Nemoidians aboard their own battleship. The Neimoidians were shitting their robes when they found out two Jedi were aboard. They were so insecure about them that they actually blew up the defenseless diplomatic ship.

They're inneffectiveness and their lazyness stems from their arrogance which is plainly seen especially in RotJ, they're oppresive because they commandeer Force users and train them, and impose silly rules on even people like Anakin, who are bound to snap.

RotJ? There was no Jedi Order in RotJ. Just Luke. And what the hell ineffectiveness or arrogance is seen in RotJ? Commandeer Force users? They have to ask their parents/guardians before they train the children. And there are far more worse places in the galaxy to be than in the Jed Order. Not only that, but silly rules? Anakin was obviously one of the few people ever to leave the Jedi Order, because he was not trained at birth. Had he been trained at birth, he might have been more powerful than Yoda ever could have dreamed of being. Who knows what he could have done to Palpatine, or anyone for that matter? Their rules are almost like a preist with a lightsaber. LOL What is so silly about not being able to have sexual relations with someone else? It's a pure, divine life. The Jedi of the NJO are sort of like ministers. LOL They could do what they please. And according to a deleted scene from AotC, only 20 Jedi ever left the Jedi Order. So apparantly the thousands and thousands of Jedi were happy and content with their lives. Who knows what it is like to be a Jedi? It could be some amazingly good feeling of pleasure, something so deep it is indescribable joy. Or it could just be like regular life but with the satisfaction of being at peace and screwing around with the Force for fun. LOL Whatever it is, the Jedi sure as hell like it to stay Jedi for thousands of years.

And even slashing a sleasy bartender is against the law in any civilized country, they're not even police officers either!

What bartender are you talking about??? At no point in any Star Wars movie has a bartender been slashed. And I think they were the closest thing the Old Republic had to a police force before the clone armies came about. What, the Coruscant guard? They were probably guarding the Senate and important places like that. Basically a precursor to the IRG (Imperial Royal Guard).

Er, when I said RotJ I MEANT AotC.
Mixing up words like that does not help me -_-

You have to look at the Jedi in perspective. In TPM, it's revealed that nothing has challenged the Jedi for 1000 yrs. Of course the Jedi will get complacent and arrogant. That's what happened to the Romans during the Pax Romana. Nothing challenges you, and eventually you'll think of yourself as unstoppable and not bother keeping your skills and attitude up.

Keeping 1,000 government officials and dignitaries "in exile" has got
to be expensive......

Personally, I think the rebellion had it's hands in all kinds of illegal business
activities to fund it's revolutionary activities.

MKSheppard wrote:Keeping 1,000 government officials and dignitaries "in exile" has got
to be expensive......

Personally, I think the rebellion had it's hands in all kinds of illegal business
activities to fund it's revolutionary activities.

I don't think there is any rebel govt or organization that has not had to deal with the seedier elements when it comes to keeping themselves alive. Even the US revolutionaries had dealings with privateers in the Caribean and Atlantic. Columbian insurgeants deal with drug dealers all the time. When you have an illegal organization desperately short on funds and supplies, you have no choice but to deal with criminal enterpises.

Stravo wrote:When you have an illegal organization desperately short on funds and supplies, you have no choice but to deal with criminal enterpises.

It also appears that Mon Mothma was a jack-off. She sat around in the senate,
yammering away, and only after some hard core rebels got wasted, manouvers
herself into supreme leadership of a new alliance movement....

Stravo wrote:

MKSheppard wrote:Keeping 1,000 government officials and dignitaries "in exile" has got
to be expensive......

Personally, I think the rebellion had it's hands in all kinds of illegal business
activities to fund it's revolutionary activities.

I don't think there is any rebel govt or organization that has not had to deal with the seedier elements when it comes to keeping themselves alive. Even the US revolutionaries had dealings with privateers in the Caribean and Atlantic. Columbian insurgeants deal with drug dealers all the time. When you have an illegal organization desperately short on funds and supplies, you have no choice but to deal with criminal enterpises.

Yes, but what Sheppard implies is(I'm only assuming I can't speak for anyone else) But anyway the Rebellion is orrupt by allying itselves with syndicates, thus kicks the Rebels stupid Ideals out the Door. They overthrew a Legtimate Goverment and well they got theirs thanks to the Yuzzhan Vong.*Laughs at the Irony* They kick arounbd a Empire that could of destroyed the Vong.

MKSheppard wrote:

Stravo wrote:When you have an illegal organization desperately short on funds and supplies, you have no choice but to deal with criminal enterpises.

It also appears that Mon Mothma was a jack-off. She sat around in the senate,
yammering away, and only after some hard core rebels got wasted, manouvers
herself into supreme leadership of a new alliance movement....

Mon Mothma was a politician, not a rebel fighter. She was more of a symbolic figure head for the Alliance. A paper pusher, adminstrator type with a silver tongue. The true fighters were the lower level folks like Leia. Unfortunately Mon Mothma was not a good enough leader to delegate to the warriors like Iblis, Ackbar and company

Stravo wrote:When you have an illegal organization desperately short on funds and supplies, you have no choice but to deal with criminal enterpises.

Oh yes, just discovered this in the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook, Ch 1, which
I am working on now:

The Alliance sold ALLIANCE WAR BONDS that would appreciate in 25 years
to finance the movement..........

Hmmm, wouldn't that make them mature right about the time the VONG ATTACK?

BWHAHAHAHAH!

Yosemite Bear wrote: Hello, yes, I now own your puny alliance, please turn
your central government over to:

(Insert name of scummy Former Imperial Gov. that
decieded to win by buying up all of the outstanding
bonds during the opening months of the Vong attack)

The entire War Bond Situation might be why the Peace Faction
was so strong in the New Republic during the Vong Invasion, as
the NR couldn't pay off it's outstanding debts and fight a war
at the same time, without risking bankruptcy...

Not exactly an original Idea, "Fire upon the reaches" the rebellion against the Corperate Masters ends with the Mercs shoirt selling stocks in the Corperation that owns the earth, and then leading a commando raid that kills off the ENTIRE board of Directors and Crashes a starship into the Corp's HQ building.