StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Two things about ESB:

First: acceleration issues.

Vader: "Admiral Ozzel came out of hyperspace to close to the system. The Rebels are alerted to our presence."

So basically, Vader said Death Squadron came out of hyperspace outside of the Hoth system.
That’s all fine and dandy, but the amount of time between the Rebel reporting to Riekan of the star destroyers coming out of hyperspace, and the star destroyers approaching Hoth 6, was a few minutes at most.

Star Wars.com mentions that the Hoth system consists of 6 planets, (Hoth being the last) and the asteroid belt on the edge of the system.
-http://www.starwars.com/databank/location/hoth/eu.html

Admittedly, there are a lot of unknowns.
- For example, where did Death Squadron exit hyperspace relative to the Hoth system?
IIRC, either Vader or Ozzel didn't want to pass through the asteroid field, so they didn't simply move from the outside of the system parallel to systems ‘disk’, and straight on to Hoth. One possibility is that the moved from the ‘side’, or from the up- or downside of the Hoth system (all relative to the system itself, off course).
- What is considered the edge of a solar system? Is it even definable?
- And to a lesser degree, what was the speed of the Imperial ships when they entered hyperspace? IIRC, the speed of a vessel that exits hyperspace is the same as the speed at which it enters hyperspace. It would help to know this, because it could be possible that the fleet entered/exited at an already great speed, meaning they wouldn’t need to accelerate that much.

Also, what was Vaders original plan, anyway? Why would exiting hyperspace at a large distance from the system help them any? They would be detected anyway, at sublight.

Second: no damage, AT ALL, on the star destroyers, despite the ioncannon, the asteroids, and the collision.

When Death Squadron is first shown, there are exactly five normal star destroyers (and the executor).
Now, in the special edition, when the MF is parked on the Avenger.
-In the first external view, showing the MF on the back off the bridge, there are clearly two undamaged star destroyers.
-In the second shot, seen from the cockpit of the MF, you can also see two undamaged star destroyers (and a brief glimpse of the executor), that couldn’t possibly be the other two star destroyers from the shot before this one.
- And finally, the Avenger itself, completely undamaged.
Five undamaged star destroyers (at least, externally undamaged).
No ioncannon, not an entire asteroid field, and a high speed collision could damage a star destroyer. Nice to know, no?

Comments, suggestions?

Well, I think:
-the word system can mean a star system as well as a planetary system (a single planet with its moons),
-the exit from hyperspace (especially as large as a stardestroyer) can cause large energy fluctuations in normal space which are easily detectable and since they are in the hyperspace they canot use any ECM to mask this. In this case you have two oppurtunities: 1. Exit close to the system and try to hit before they could power up the shields or 2. Exit beyond sensor range and sneak to the system under masking ECMs.
-they received reinforcement. The squadron was not together when Vader unexpectedly start the group without waiting the other ships of the task force.
-the novelization says that originally six ship arrived to Hoth. Two others (the collided ones) arrived later when the battle was over and the Falcon passed the blockade folowed by the Avenger. The Executor followed them but this time only 2 destroyers accompanied her. So, from the original 5 1 was strucked by the ion cannon, 1 was the Avenger, 2 escorted the Executor, 1 was left unknown (maybe left to guard the strucked one or the planet). During the asteroid search the novelization mentions 20 ships plus the Executor, from which one was hit by the asteroid. These all means that the task force originally consisted 24 destroyers and the Executor but initially only a core was together.

mr. big wrote:Second: no damage, AT ALL, on the star destroyers, despite the ioncannon, the asteroids, and the collision.

Don't confuse "no damage at all" with "no damage to the hull, but the shields took a pounding"

*poke da noob*

you also have to take into account that maybe George didn't want to damage his pretty little models.

Death from the Sea wrote:you also have to take into account that maybe George didn't want to damage his pretty little models.

Not an option with "suspension of disbelief". Besides, he had no problems blowing up X-wing and TIE models. His FX artists can always make more.

*pokes the noob again*

mr. big wrote:That’s all fine and dandy, but the amount of time between the Rebel reporting to Riekan of the star destroyers coming out of hyperspace, and the star destroyers approaching Hoth 6, was a few minutes at most.

You do not know that, there where many scene cuts, how much time elapsed is unknown.

For your second question:

We never see all the star destroyers on screen after their arrival to Hoth.
So the one which has lost her superstructure -due to the collision with an asteroid- may be around, somewher out of screen...

The ion cannon doesn't leave visual damage to the ship like turbolasers.
It disables the electric systems.

The collision was not direct, the two star destroyer just "polished" each other...

I have a question about ESB.

How come in the asteroid field when the MF landed in the cave which turned out to be the belly of the worm, why was there gravity? the asteroid could not have had enough gravity to hold them down.

Death from the Sea wrote:I have a question about ESB.

How come in the asteroid field when the MF landed in the cave which turned out to be the belly of the worm, why was there gravity? the asteroid could not have had enough gravity to hold them down.

They expanded the gravity field from the Falcon I believe.

Boba Fett wrote:For your second question:

We never see all the star destroyers on screen after their arrival to Hoth.
So the one which has lost her superstructure -due to the collision with an asteroid- may be around, somewher out of screen...

The ion cannon doesn't leave visual damage to the ship like turbolasers.
It disables the electric systems.

The collision was not direct, the two star destroyer just "polished" each other...

Actually, all of the damage is internal. Those flashes we see right after the ion impact are circuts and internal power systems frying or exploding. But if you mean hull damage, then no, there was none.

My questions about ESB:
-Why the rebells did not use X-wings against the walkers? Right after the start of the Falcon five pilots can be seen and at least one fighter in the air escorting the transport that was just taking off. It suggests that at least six fighters were unused during the battle. (Two of them confirmed: Luke's and the one that was mentioned.)
-Within the asteroid how did they (Solo and Leia) not freeze or explode from depressurization, since the worm was open to the space at this time?
-How was the Falcon able to "land" on a shielded ISD and how the crew did not notice that something as big as the Falcon went through the particle shields?
-The 17.28 was said as range or as location (when Veers destroyed the generator)?

vakundok wrote:My questions about ESB:
-Why the rebells did not use X-wings against the walkers? Right after the start of the Falcon five pilots can be seen and at least one fighter in the air escorting the transport that was just taking off. It suggests that at least six fighters were unused during the battle. (Two of them confirmed: Luke's and the one that was mentioned.)

The Star Wars Episode II ICS indicates that using starfighters (or practically any space going vessel) underneath a theatre shield is not recommended. This may also be the reason why TIE Fighters did not support the Imperial attack, and the only time we saw X-Wings flying was when the shield was down (briefly- we know from canon ANH and AOTC how quickly SW ships can go from takeoff to orbit).

Within the asteroid how did they (Solo and Leia) not freeze or explode from depressurization, since the worm was open to the space at this time?

Chalk that up to buggered if I know.

How was the Falcon able to "land" on a shielded ISD and how the crew did not notice that something as big as the Falcon went through the particle shields?

Perhaps the Falcon, as a smuggler ship, has it's docking facilties arranged in such a way as to operate through particle shields. Just a theory. It was able to land on the ISD because it pulled a massive turn and landed right in a sensor blind spot (notice that the very controversial globes on top of the bridge tower do not have a 'line of sight' to the Falcon). In the same way, a US Navy Destroyer wouldn't be able to detect with with it's sensor suite a rubber dinghy tied up alongside.

The 17.28 was said as range or as location (when Veers destroyed the generator)?

Range.

"Distance to target?"

"One-Seven Decimal Two Eight".

Vympel wrote:The Star Wars Episode II ICS indicates that using starfighters (or practically any space going vessel) underneath a theatre shield is not recommended. This may also be the reason why TIE Fighters did not support the Imperial attack, and the only time we saw X-Wings flying was when the shield was down (briefly- we know from canon ANH and AOTC how quickly SW ships can go from takeoff to orbit).

Leia instructed the pilots to stay close to the freighters because the shield can be lowered only for a very short period of time. When Reikan gave the order the very next sceen showed the convoy and we saw later that that type of transport took off very slowly. It seems that the transport was in the air at least a second before the operator had a chance to execute that order. Besides the speeders seem to hover in the same way as fighters an freighters do.

Chalk that up to buggered if I know.

Perhaps the Falcon, as a smuggler ship, has it's docking facilties arranged in such a way as to operate through particle shields. Just a theory. It was able to land on the ISD because it pulled a massive turn and landed right in a sensor blind spot (notice that the very controversial globes on top of the bridge tower do not have a 'line of sight' to the Falcon). In the same way, a US Navy Destroyer wouldn't be able to detect with with it's sensor suite a rubber dinghy tied up alongside.

I ment detecting the energy fluctuation in the rear particle shield. Hmm, is it possible that only those docking things went through the particle shields while the Falcon itself remained outside?

Range.
"Distance to target?"
"One-Seven Decimal Two Eight".

Thanks.

-Click this to lower the shield.
-Are you sure? Yes/No.
-Error 11765: User error. The shields canot be lowered while there are orbiting destroyers. Check your hardware manual. Remove any destroyers and try again.

Sorry.

vakundok wrote: Leia instructed the pilots to stay close to the freighters because the shield can be lowered only for a very short period of time. When Reikan gave the order the very next sceen showed the convoy and we saw later that that type of transport took off very slowly. It seems that the transport was in the air at least a second before the operator had a chance to execute that order. Besides the speeders seem to hover in the same way as fighters an freighters do.

Speeders primary mode of flight is via repulsorlifts, IIRC. Starfighters however use their 'space' engines primarily, and only use repulsors for lift-off. They would not be able to fight with them.

As for the shield, IMO, considering the information provided by Saxton, it best fits the facts. The transport that takes off later was on repulsorlifts, it couldn't achieve orbit with them. It is very likely that fighters/ transports were on station with their repulsors until they were given the go order, and then went like a bat out of hell with their main engines.

I ment detecting the energy fluctuation in the rear particle shield. Hmm, is it possible that only those docking things went through the particle shields while the Falcon itself remained outside?

I don't think the Falcon itself was clamped to the hull- if anything, it was just the clamps.

Admiral Johnason wrote:

Boba Fett wrote:For your second question:

We never see all the star destroyers on screen after their arrival to Hoth.
So the one which has lost her superstructure -due to the collision with an asteroid- may be around, somewher out of screen...

The ion cannon doesn't leave visual damage to the ship like turbolasers.
It disables the electric systems.

The collision was not direct, the two star destroyer just "polished" each other...

Actually, all of the damage is internal. Those flashes we see right after the ion impact are circuts and internal power systems frying or exploding. But if you mean hull damage, then no, there was none.

Yes, I mean there was no hull damage.

Vympel wrote:

vakundok wrote: Leia instructed the pilots to stay close to the freighters because the shield can be lowered only for a very short period of time. When Reikan gave the order the very next sceen showed the convoy and we saw later that that type of transport took off very slowly. It seems that the transport was in the air at least a second before the operator had a chance to execute that order. Besides the speeders seem to hover in the same way as fighters an freighters do.

Speeders primary mode of flight is via repulsorlifts, IIRC. Starfighters however use their 'space' engines primarily, and only use repulsors for lift-off. They would not be able to fight with them.

As for the shield, IMO, considering the information provided by Saxton, it best fits the facts. The transport that takes off later was on repulsorlifts, it couldn't achieve orbit with them. It is very likely that fighters/ transports were on station with their repulsors until they were given the go order, and then went like a bat out of hell with their main engines.

I have read so far that shields deny crossing with repulsors. Not allowing the sublight engines is new to me.
We saw fighters and the Falcon to (slowly) move and easily turn using their repulsors the fighters still could act as slow moving shielded weapon platforms.
In ANH the fighters crossed the shields of the Death Star using their sublight engines and remained quite active and Ties were launched and used within the shield perimeter. Or did the two shields differ completely?

I don't think the Falcon itself was clamped to the hull- if anything, it was just the clamps.

So maybe it can be estimated how far is the particle shield from the hull of the ISD.

vakundok wrote:
I have read so far that shields deny crossing with repulsors. Not allowing the sublight engines is new to me.

Crossing? I meant underneath the shield- according to the Ep 2 ICS, there are harmful shield interactions that are a hazard. Even using the speeders was possibly a risk. Saxton also theorizes on his page (non-official) that there may be some kind of harmful shielded fighter underneath a shield reaction that prevented use of air support.

We saw fighters and the Falcon to (slowly) move and easily turn using their repulsors the fighters still could act as slow moving shielded weapon platforms.

I don't think there's any evidence that they could move nearly as well, if at all, on repulsorlifts instead of genuine repulsorcraft like the T-47 airspeeder. The only maneuvers we've seen them pull as such is rotating and floating straight up. Not being dedicated repulsorcraft, even if they could be used in such a manner, they would be picked off- a waste of good space faring fighters when you have dedicated speeders for the job.

In ANH the fighters crossed the shields of the Death Star using their sublight engines and remained quite active and Ties were launched and used within the shield perimeter. Or did the two shields differ completely?

Well there is various shield technology in Star Wars, and the Death Star is a different situation- e.g. the Death Star could hardly have been using a ground-based theatre type shield, or else they wouldn't have been able to cross over at all- nor would lowering the shield on Hoth have been necessary for the transports escape attempt.

So maybe it can be estimated how far is the particle shield from the hull of the ISD.

Yes- the quesiton is, what are the clamps? the landing gear perhaps?

Vympel wrote:

vakundok wrote:I have read so far that shields deny crossing with repulsors. Not allowing the sublight engines is new to me.

Crossing? I meant underneath the shield- according to the Ep 2 ICS, there are harmful shield interactions that are a hazard. Even using the speeders was possibly a risk.

You wrote previously that in your opinion the fighters and transports hovered while waiting for the go order. According to this it was higly risky, and that time the walkers were nowhere so the situation was not so desperate.

Besides, Rieekan did not give a "Go!" order. He ordered the lowering of the shield. It suggests that the lowering was adjusted to the advance of the convoy, not the start of the convoy was adjusted to the lowering of the shield. But it is just a suggestion not a fact.
In the novelization the order was given (by an operator not Rieekan) when the convoy approached the shield. The movie was unclear whether the convoy was near the shield or just starting when the lowering order was given. Since the movie is unclear the novelization is the highest applicable level isn't it? And it is clear about that the convoy flew under the shield. So, the X-wings were able to take part of the battle (officially without their shields). (While we saw shields under shield in TPM they could be a different type too.) The question is whether the X-wings would be able to take out an AT-AT? As I know the official answer is yes. But not using a competent weapon when it can be used and you have not really any other weapon is against reality and logic.

We saw fighters and the Falcon to (slowly) move and easily turn using their repulsors the fighters still could act as slow moving shielded weapon platforms.

I don't think there's any evidence that they could move nearly as well, if at all, on repulsorlifts instead of genuine repulsorcraft like the T-47 airspeeder. The only maneuvers we've seen them pull as such is rotating and floating straight up. Not being dedicated repulsorcraft, even if they could be used in such a manner, they would be picked off- a waste of good space faring fighters when you have dedicated speeders for the job.

The reverse of the Falcon and the turning of Anakin's fighter were not repulsorlift actions?

Well there is various shield technology in Star Wars, and the Death Star is a different situation- e.g. the Death Star could hardly have been using a ground-based theatre type shield, or else they wouldn't have been able to cross over at all- nor would lowering the shield on Hoth have been necessary for the transports escape attempt.

The shield projected from Endor did that. Sadly we do not know exactly whether the shield of the finished DS2 could do it but I think yes. So, this difference canot be used as a difference in the methods they work. However they can be different.

Yes- the quesiton is, what are the clamps? the landing gear perhaps?

I have no idea.

vakundok wrote: You wrote previously that in your opinion the fighters and transports hovered while waiting for the go order. According to this it was higly risky, and that time the walkers were nowhere so the situation was not so desperate.

What's your point? My opinion is simple- they were on station with repulsorlifts, which weren't as dangerous as using standard engines, until the shield went down, after which they were orbit in seconds. What's the problem?

Besides, Rieekan did not give a "Go!" order. He ordered the lowering of the shield. It suggests that the lowering was adjusted to the advance of the convoy, not the start of the convoy was adjusted to the lowering of the shield. But it is just a suggestion not a fact.

So?

In the novelization the order was given (by an operator not Rieekan) when the convoy approached the shield. The movie was unclear whether the convoy was near the shield or just starting when the lowering order was given. Since the movie is unclear the novelization is the highest applicable level isn't it? And it is clear about that the convoy flew under the shield. So, the X-wings were able to take part of the battle (officially without their shields).

This doesn't necessarily mean they were using their spacefaring engines when near the shield.

(While we saw shields under shield in TPM they could be a different type too.)

Where? In the battle on Naboo, Droidekas underneath the Gungan shield clearly didn't have shields.

T

he question is whether the X-wings would be able to take out an AT-AT? As I know the official answer is yes. But not using a competent weapon when it can be used and you have not really any other weapon is against reality and logic.

I don't think there's any evidence to indicate that an X-Wing or the Falcon could operate combat effective on just replusors. They're not the primary system, and they have none of the control surfaces (vanes, large exhausts etc evidenced on the LAAT and T-47 airspeeder oh and airbrakes) that would indicate it.

The reverse of the Falcon and the turning of Anakin's fighter were not repulsorlift actions?

You've got to be more specific. We've never seen a starship perform what speeders and LAATs do in terms of speed and maneuverability on repulsors in atmosphere.

The shield projected from Endor did that. Sadly we do not know exactly whether the shield of the finished DS2 could do it but I think yes. So, this difference canot be used as a difference in the methods they work. However they can be different.

On the matter of shields stopping vessels that are using conventional Star Wars ion engines, the AOTC ICS provides the necessary information. Basically, the normal engines of a fighter or larger craft use particles ejected at extremely high velocity to push the vehicle forward. The particles are small enough that an active shield can bring the velocity of that exhaust down to zero as it emerges from the engine. That reduces forward thrust to zero and also produces what is effectively a cork in the exhaust port, so that the engine could shake itself to pieces or even explode.

Just on that basis, a fighter brushing a theater shield would be a bad thing. And, if the shield operators can modify the shield's shape, a flight of ground attack fighters operating under an enemy shield could suddenly find a shield slamming into it from behind, turning the fighters into fireballs as their engines explode.

In my opinion:
The process:
-The transport is full,
-it starts immediately (in the same way as we saw later, using the normal engines nearly from the beginning),
-the shield is lowered when the convoy approaches the perimeter,
-the fighters are close to the transport to pass the shield perimeter exactly the same time as the transport causing a minimal shield deactivation.
Visual: When we first saw them, they were near the shield perimeter and the shield was just before being lowered or in the lowering process.

My problems with your opinion:
-Risking a transport while hovering,
-the shield deactivation lasts as long as the whole trip from hovering altitude (and we saw starships hovering only a few metres high at best) to the shield perimeter,
-the fighters would be able to pass the shields far before the transport and attract enemies from the flight path of the transport. They did not do it while it would be highly logical.
-it gives no explanation why was so important for the convoy to stay together,
-the novelization is clear that the shield was lowered when the convoy approached it, not before the convoy started.

Vympel wrote:

vakundok wrote:The reverse of the Falcon and the turning of Anakin's fighter were not repulsorlift actions?

You've got to be more specific. We've never seen a starship perform what speeders and LAATs do in terms of speed and maneuverability on repulsors in atmosphere.

I wrote slow moving. When the Falcon started from the DS1 first it went backward. When Anakin shooted the droidekas in the hanger in TPM, his fighter turned quite easily. I think both of these were repulsorlift actions of starships.

Vympel wrote:

vakundok wrote:(While we saw shields under shield in TPM they could be a different type too.)

Where? In the battle on Naboo, Droidekas underneath the Gungan shield clearly didn't have shields.

I ment the gungan personal shields.

Vympel wrote:

vakundok wrote:The shield projected from Endor did that. Sadly we do not know exactly whether the shield of the finished DS2 could do it but I think yes. So, this difference canot be used as a difference in the methods they work. However they can be different.

What do you mean? What I meant was that the shield on the DS1 can't have been of the same type as that on Hoth, because fighters could cross it. If fighters could cross such shields at will, there'd be no need to lower the shield to allow for their escape.

I ment that that the fighters were able to cross the shield of DS1 could be due to the power settings and calibration of that shield not only due to difference in the methods they (the shield of DS1 and the shield on Hoth) work.

The question of the Falcon using its landing claws to hold onto the back of the bridge tower never struck me as particularly problematic.

We have a bit of evidence from the original Death Star, when the Falcon is pulled into the docking bay, that stormtroopers could and did pull guard duty on the exterior of the Death Star. It is not entirely unreasonable to extend that to ISDs as well, especially those on station as picket ships or simply sitting somewhere and waiting. After all, mynocks and saboteurs don't sleep. There is also a need for hull access by astromech droids to conduct repairs. This means that the hull should allow magnetic boots/grippers to work, as installing a gravity grid on the outer surface of a starship seems like an utterly wasteful idea.

So...the Falcon zips over the bridge tower, does a quick dogleg to line its belly up with the back of the bridge tower, and turns on magnetic coils in its landing pads. The field strength likely would not have to be greater than that of a half-squad of stormtroopers as long as the ISD engines are not active. If the engines got turned on, the radiation scattered by the engines would almost certainly mask any increased magnetic field strength necessary to compensate for the thrust.

The lack of sensors and windows on the rear of the bridge tower does make a good bit of sense when one considers that the huge ion engines of an ISD, effectively three giant particle beam cannon, should produce an awful lot of radiation scatter. Enormously thick layers of radiation-shielding armor would make sense there, as would keeping droid-dominated areas near the rear of the bridge tower.

That particular configuration of large Imperial capital ships also provides a justification for the placement of the bridge tower, since it is effectively the safest part of the ship. Attacks from below would have to physically chew their way through shields, armor plating and the physically enormous engines. Attacks from behind would have to weather the wash of the engines and then penetrate the shields and chew through the massive layers of armor that protect the rear of the bridge tower. Attacks from the front or sides would have to get past shields, armor, and the ranked guns of the ISD. The only truly vulnerable aspect would be directly above the bridge tower.

Patrick Ogaard wrote:On the matter of shields stopping vessels that are using conventional Star Wars ion engines, the AOTC ICS provides the necessary information. Basically, the normal engines of a fighter or larger craft use particles ejected at extremely high velocity to push the vehicle forward. The particles are small enough that an active shield can bring the velocity of that exhaust down to zero as it emerges from the engine. That reduces forward thrust to zero and also produces what is effectively a cork in the exhaust port, so that the engine could shake itself to pieces or even explode.

Does it apply only to the line of the shield or everywhere under the shield? In the former case friendly starfighters can be used without restriction (except not to cross the shield). In the latter case how can people breath?

Patrick Ogaard wrote:The question of the Falcon using its landing claws to hold onto the back of the bridge tower never struck me as particularly problematic.

Well, my only problem was that the ISD had just left an asteroid field and was shielded.