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Hey Guys,

This question has been bothering me. I'm thinking about running a SW Saga Edition RPG game, and I've searched high and low on the internet for the location of the Katana fleet on the various wiki's and other message board discussions... I've read Timothy Zahn's two EU series and that's about it...

It does not seem like at any point in time, a system name/ relative location has been given for the location of the Katana fleet. Am I wrong in this? I'd love to be corrected! thanks!

HeavensThunderHammer wrote:Hey Guys,

This question has been bothering me. I'm thinking about running a SW Saga Edition RPG game, and I've searched high and low on the internet for the location of the Katana fleet on the various wiki's and other message board discussions... I've read Timothy Zahn's two EU series and that's about it...

It does not seem like at any point in time, a system name/ relative location has been given for the location of the Katana fleet. Am I wrong in this? I'd love to be corrected! thanks!

It's literally out in the middle of nowhere between systems/in an empty, useless system, probably lacking planets. Go hog wild and make up a location, if you really want one more specific than "space somewhere". As for the relative location, it could be anywhere, but it's more likely to be in less clustered areas like the Mid Rim out. Again, feel free to put it wherever you want.

Interstellar space near the Hapan cluster FYI if I remember my Zahn correctly as that's where the ship Karrade was on blind jumped from one of the Hapan Cluster systems to dodge a customs craft.

Along a smuggling route is the best of my recollection. Mr Bean's answer works perfectly well, though my most recent read-through of the Thrawn Trilogy, I don't recall Karrde mentioning where they were. A check on Wookiepedia indicates that the cluster wasn't even mentioned in any of the Thrawn books, though Wookepedia, being a wiki, isn't a perfect source and is only as good as the people who contribute to it.

The only definite answer is that it's somewhere just off from a smuggling route, as that's what the group he was with at the time did for income.


"In the middle of nowhere" is the most precise answer that can be given and still be definitely accurate. The ships made a blind jump and dumped out of hyperspace in a random location. As Douglas Adams stated, space is big. Space is very big. In fact, space is so big you can't possibly imagine it.

I dont think it would necessarily have to be anywhere near a "smuggling route" or somesuch - IIRC Karrde mentions it was a completely random hyperspace jump when they ran into the fleet.

Ok, thanks for the advice guys. It's good to know that I can place it whereever then.

atg wrote:I dont think it would necessarily have to be anywhere near a "smuggling route" or somesuch - IIRC Karrde mentions it was a completely random hyperspace jump when they ran into the fleet.

When I say "near a smuggling route" I mean within a few dozen light years or so. Remember, it was just a short jump meant to get them out of sensor range. Emergency jumps that you don't plot are, as a rule, very short.

Within the confines of the Zahn subset of the EU, yes. If you plug in movie hyperdrive speeds and the ability to FOLLOW ships through them to an extent and thus the necessity to LOSE the pursuers, that trip might have been a lot longer and ANYTHING but a straight line.

I think the important thing in your game is to not classify it as a 'fleet' but maybe a very small task force.
In 1941 before the attack on Pearl Harbor, just the Pacific fleet alone was like 115+ ships. The idea that a 'fleet' that barely has the same ship count as the US Navy before we entered into WWII could have any kind of impact on a galaxy wide conflict is fucking preposterous.

While the term fleet IS generally assumed to mean 'large number of ships', it is NOT required to mean 'a sufficiently large number of ships to alter the balance of power in your universe'. Additionally, 'Fleet' is often use as an administrative term (7th/9th/12th Fleet etc) regardless of the actual SIZE of the fleet in question (to the point where there have been Fleets that had no ships whatsoever at times).
As a colloquial term (which to my knowledge is the ONLY way it was ever used in the Wars EU) 'Katana fleet' is perfectly acceptable.

The star wars wookiepedia sets the # at 200 dreadnaughts with slave circuits for lower than normal crews.

I think the issue being that there were 25000 star destroyers of various types floating around at the end of ROTJ... By the time the Imperial Remnant formed (I guess a few years after Thrawn mind you) there were...250 or ISDs... Meaning that Thrawn maybe had... a thousand?

Anyone know the exact numbers Thrawn had in his fleet?

Anyhow, 200 Dreadnaughts would be useful, but I don't know about balance tipping. According to the books, he captures and uses 180 of them. Seems a little wild to me. I'd put the nubmers at a thousand or something to have a bigger effect on the game/ more realism. Thanks for the suggestions.

Havok wrote:I think the important thing in your game is to not classify it as a 'fleet' but maybe a very small task force.
In 1941 before the attack on Pearl Harbor, just the Pacific fleet alone was like 115+ ships. The idea that a 'fleet' that barely has the same ship count as the US Navy before we entered into WWII could have any kind of impact on a galaxy wide conflict is fucking preposterous.

Is that why the Rebel Fleet and the Imperial Fleet at Endor could be counted in the dozens rather than thousands?

Stofsk wrote:

Havok wrote:I think the important thing in your game is to not classify it as a 'fleet' but maybe a very small task force.
In 1941 before the attack on Pearl Harbor, just the Pacific fleet alone was like 115+ ships. The idea that a 'fleet' that barely has the same ship count as the US Navy before we entered into WWII could have any kind of impact on a galaxy wide conflict is fucking preposterous.

Is that why the Rebel Fleet and the Imperial Fleet at Endor could be counted in the dozens rather than thousands?

Well, It is canon from the novelizations that the Rebel fleet was so large that you couldn't see where it ended with the naked eye when it was massing at Sullest. But to put it differently, look at the Battle of Corruscant. Thousands of capital ships there, all larger than Dreadnoughts. The Katana fleet is only really useful on galactic scale as a sudden injection of fighting power into a depleted military situation.

Nitpicky it may be, but the Pacific Fleet at the start of World War 2 had what, all of 4 fleet carriers and less then a dozen battleships, which leads to a capital ship count in the range of low double digits - so it's not like the Katana Fleet is miniscale even on a terrestrial scale, depending on wether we count the Dreadnoughts as capital units or not.

Dreadnaught were powerful units for their time. By the time of the Zahn books they were the equivalent of in Naval Terms Heavy Cruisers. No match for a Star Destroyer (Which is on line with a Hybrid Battle-Cruisers/Carrier) except in numbers. It's not exact but the main thing is even if you do have 25,000 Large capital ships(Which Thrawn did not) in your fleet they are by the nature of space not simply sitting all 25,000 in empty space ready to respond. They are broken up into squadrons into various systems with a few larger task forces. So two hundred ships fresh and ready to crew would be a huge temporary advantage as they are not tied down defending any one system or already committed elsewhere.

The Katana force as I recall from the Zahn books was quickly used up, IE within two years of their reclamation they were crewed and assigned and made into just another drop in the bucket ship wise for a galaxy sized power.

Also, the tactical abilities Thrawn is described as having would mean he'd be able to put those 180 ships to better use than the New Republic. While it wouldn't be a tipping point, it would be a massive headache. The New Republic was described as being spread thin as it was, so another 200 ships to sit and use hit and run tactics would serve nicely to scare people and demoralize the Republic's worlds. It wasn't the thing that would make the Empire able to defeat the New Republic, it was just a step in the entire plan.


Though Zahn did seem to have a tendency of understating what the SW galaxy had to it. Not as bad as Karen Travis, but still understating things.

HeavensThunderHammer wrote:The star wars wookiepedia sets the # at 200 dreadnaughts with slave circuits for lower than normal crews.

I think the issue being that there were 25000 star destroyers of various types floating around at the end of ROTJ... By the time the Imperial Remnant formed (I guess a few years after Thrawn mind you) there were...250 or ISDs... Meaning that Thrawn maybe had... a thousand?

Anyone know the exact numbers Thrawn had in his fleet?

Anyhow, 200 Dreadnaughts would be useful, but I don't know about balance tipping. According to the books, he captures and uses 180 of them. Seems a little wild to me. I'd put the nubmers at a thousand or something to have a bigger effect on the game/ more realism. Thanks for the suggestions.

The only way the extra Katana ships would make sense as a balance-tipping force is if Thrawn's forces and the New Republic were so evenly matched that having a mere handful of extra ships really did give him just enough flexibility to hit targets.

If both sides have their fleets spread out evenly to protect everything, gathering enough ships to overwhelm a target's defenses would leave several of yours defenseless if the enemy counterattacks. Thrawn neatly bypasses this by getting just enough extra ships to have a task force that can hit the New Republic while leaving most of his forces defending against any counterattacks.

Otherwise, you just have to shrug it off as Zahn being WAY too minimalist.

Napoleon the Clown wrote:Though Zahn did seem to have a tendency of understating what the SW galaxy had to it. Not as bad as Karen Travis, but still understating things.

In his defense, unless I am much mistaken, the magnitude of what that was hadn't been nailed down quite so firmly when he started writing.

Simon_Jester wrote:

Napoleon the Clown wrote:In his defense, unless I am much mistaken, the magnitude of what that was hadn't been nailed down quite so firmly when he started writing.

Actually, the magnitude of the size of the Imperial fleet is effectively shown by the two Death Stars. While the fleets seen in the films were quite small, it was due to the fact the Imperial Navy was spread across the galaxy and unable to mass fleets due to the scattered nature of the Rebellion.

Adamskywalker007 wrote: Actually, the magnitude of the size of the Imperial fleet is effectively shown by the two Death Stars. While the fleets seen in the films were quite small, it was due to the fact the Imperial Navy was spread across the galaxy and unable to mass fleets due to the scattered nature of the Rebellion.

And the Marvel comics EU along with some other fluff were saying the Empire collapsed and the Imperial Fleet was decisively defeated at Endor. This even as some comics had what could had been hundreds of imperial starships appear over a "liberated" system that Luke Skywalker was on.

Put it in context. Timothy Zahn at least established that the Empire was still actively fighting together as a whole. Its striking to us now, but what passed for the EU and the RPGs then were individual adventure parties taking over worlds. Hell, in SW Insider, they had a story about a Y-wing squadron taking over Kuat SHIPYARDS at FONDOR. A single SQUADRON. Even as the warlords era for the Empire became more fully fleshed out, Stackpole would be guilty of even more dire miminalism.

Adamskywalker007 wrote:

Simon_Jester wrote:

Napoleon the Clown wrote:In his defense, unless I am much mistaken, the magnitude of what that was hadn't been nailed down quite so firmly when he started writing.

Actually, the magnitude of the size of the Imperial fleet is effectively shown by the two Death Stars. While the fleets seen in the films were quite small, it was due to the fact the Imperial Navy was spread across the galaxy and unable to mass fleets due to the scattered nature of the Rebellion.

I think you're missing what I was trying to get at.

The Death Stars proved that the Empire at its peak had colossal construction capabilities*. However, for any plausible estimate of Imperial fleet strength consistent with the basic plot of the movies, the aggregate mass of the fleet has to be far less than that of either Death Star. A fleet with the combined mass of the Death Star, or even a small fraction of that mass, would be enough to garrison every inhabited star in the galaxy with multiple heavy units... making the Rebellion's operations effectively impossible. The mere fact that there was a Rebellion refutes the idea of multimillion-ship fleets, which in turn refutes the idea that the Empire's fleet (excluding the Death Star and other superweapons of comparable size) had a total tonnage that could be reasonably estimated from using the Death Star as an initial figure.

So every Star Wars author who accepts that the movies ever happened will have to make some estimate of Imperial fleet strength (explicit or implied) that adds up to a tonnage much less than that of the Death Star. And they don't always make the same estimates, for obvious reasons.
________

As to why Zahn made his estimate, consider this:
In the nearly twenty years since Zahn started writing those novels, additional sources have come out that further nail down the size of the Empire as, for lack of a better term, "big"**, such as the prequel movies having Dooku make a casual reference to "ten thousand systems."

But what's really significant is that the existing sources, including the ones that were around when Zahn got his contract, have been subject to a great deal of interpretation since 1991-3, and that back then numerical analysis of the setting was simply not there to anything like the same degree (for instance, this website did not exist then, nor did the Star Wars Technical Commentaries).

So when Zahn tried to come up with a number for fleet strength in 1991, he had much less analysis to go on of the materials that did exist than someone today would. Canon policies were less clear, and Lucas himself never bothered to nail down the actual size of the Imperial fleet, except by implication. Zahn was shooting in the dark, and he aimed low.
_________

*powerful enough to alliterate entire sectors...
**Where "big" is in line with the kinds of estimates made by what we'd call the non-minimalists, while "small" is in line with the minimalists themselves.

Vehrec wrote:Well, It is canon from the novelizations that the Rebel fleet was so large that you couldn't see where it ended with the naked eye when it was massing at Sullest.

If this is true, then there is no excuse for Zahn, or anyone else to have dolled out the minimalism they did. As the saying goes, 'ignorance of the law is no excuse'.

Havok wrote:

Vehrec wrote:Well, It is canon from the novelizations that the Rebel fleet was so large that you couldn't see where it ended with the naked eye when it was massing at Sullest.

If this is true, then there is no excuse for Zahn, or anyone else to have dolled out the minimalism they did. As the saying goes, 'ignorance of the law is no excuse'.

Yes the quote is from the scene just before the rebel briefing

Return of the Jedi novelization pg 384 wrote: In a remote and midnight vacuum beyond the edge of the galaxy, the vast Rebel fleet stretched, from its vanguard to its rear echelon, past the range of human vision. Corellian battle ships, cruisers, destroyers, carriers, bombers, Sullustan cargo freighters, Calamarian tankers, Alderaanian gunships, Kesselian blockade runners, Bestinian skyhoppers, X-wing, Y-wing, and A-wing fighters, shuttles, transport vehicles, manowars. Every Rebel in the galaxy, soldier and civilian alike, waited tensely in these ships for instructions. They were led by the largest of the Rebel Star Cruisers, the Headquarters Frigate.

Note:The page number is from the complete Star Wars trilogy which has all three books as one.