Roundtable: Why are EU TIE pilots so stupid?

[MKSheppard]

One of the questions that's always been nagging me ever since
I read an EU book, was the way the authors of these books
portrayed the Imperial Navy's TIE Fighter Pilot corps.

In nearly every EU source, the TIE Fighter Pilot Corps is described
as "elite", and such adjectives are used such as "the top 1%", yet,
when they go against Rebel fighters in the EU novels, they act
like a bunch of rookie ensigns fresh out of an academy, not like
seasoned professionals with the best training the Galaxy has to
offer them.

I've never seen the Empire's pilots come up with innovative tactics
to counter the Rebellion's advantage of shielded fighters in head-on
attacks.

One such tactic I came up with was the TIE squadron flying in close
formation until they're just within laser range of the Rebel squadron,
and then having the entire TIE squadron split up in a starburst formation,
utilizing their superior maneuverability to stay out of enemy gunsights,
and giving the Rebels the tactical problem of having to deal with possible
TIE attacks from all over the enagement area.

Unfortunately, most EU TIE squadrons use the tactic of flying straight
at shielded rebel fighters (which is essentially suicide), instead
of innovative tactics to counter the Rebel advantages.

Is there a reason for this prevalency of low IQ amongst the EU
TIE Pilot Corps?

(and yes, I know that flying unshielded fighters makes it harder for
TIE pilots to survive as long as a Rebel pilot and gain the needed
combat experience, but TIE pilots have the advantage of starting
from a formalized training program considered to be the Galaxy's best.)

[Captain tycho]

In the books, they always fight against rookies.
Plus, these are of the same books that claims a squadron of X-wings can take down an ISD .
Stackpole gets all of his dogfighting ideas from Tie fighter vs. Xwing.
What can you expect?

[MKSheppard]

In the books, they always fight against rookies.
Plus, these are of the same books that claims a squadron of X-wings can take down an ISD. (Mostly Stackpole.)

Uhm, to be a TIE Pilot, you have to be the top 1% of the Imperial Navy,
and failed TIE pilots become those gunners you see with the funky helmets.

To say that TIE Pilots are rookies is like saying a USAF pilot with thousands
of flight hours in his F-15 is a rookie.

[Darth Fanboy]

Simple, Stackpole and Allston are not tacticans. It makes sense though, i'd be embarrased for the Empire if a fucking douchebag like Corran Horn got a high kill count off of good pilots.

I remember waiting for the book where rogue squadron would go up against an Imperial Squadron that kicked their ass and Wedge would be forced to deal with it...but it never happened...

in revenge for every ROgue Squadron book I played Tie Fighter until the CD Rom gave out and shot down X Wing after X wing using my favorite Tie Defender. Lasers only just to make it sporting.

[Captain tycho]

In the books, they always fight against rookies.
Plus, these are of the same books that claims a squadron of X-wings can take down an ISD. (Mostly Stackpole.)

Uhm, to be a TIE Pilot, you have to be the top 1% of the Imperial Navy,
and failed TIE pilots become those gunners you see with the funky helmets.

To say that TIE Pilots are rookies is like saying a USAF pilot with thousands
of flight hours in his F-15 is a rookie.

The Rogue Squadron books, which are the ones most guilty of this, take place during and after the fall of Coruscant. The Empire has lost many of it's training academies and veteran pilots, so they have to start over again and recruit green squadrons, since they weren't many true TIE vets left over from the bulk of the fighting. Remeber, they are short on war material and personel, so they MUST train new squadrons immediately.
They can't afford to give such extensive training anymore to many miltary servicemen as they could before, and they don't have hundreds of lfight schools pumping out elite pilots anymore.
They are essentially down to green squdrons Shep.

[Darth Fanboy]

Which facilites are you talking about? During the Rogue Squadron books the Empire had not lost as much as it had during say, the Thrawn Trilogy.

[MKSheppard]

The Rogue Squadron books, which are the ones most guilty of this, take place during and after the fall of Coruscant. The Empire has lost many of it's training academies and veteran pilots, so they have to start over again and recruit green squadrons, since they weren't many true TIE vets left over from the bulk of the fighting.

Coruscant is what, a couple of months after Endor? No way the Empire could
lose so many pilots in that short a time frame. Now, by the Thrawn Trilogy,
they're screwed, and have to recruit, yes, but the X-Wing books are set
in a time period where the Empire is still strong, and has massive reserves...

They can't afford to give such extensive training anymore to many miltary servicemen as they could before, and they don't have hundreds of lfight schools pumping out elite pilots anymore.

Carida was essentially solid Imperial until that fag Kyp blew it to hell...
You forget the true SCOPE of the Galactic Empire, like so many people..

They are essentially down to green squdrons Shep.

By the Thrawn trilogy, I'd have to agree, but not in the XWing book
time frame. That's just too close to Endor for a noticeable decline in
the pilot skills of the TIE corps...

[Patrick Ogaard]

A relatively simple answer might be the following: strict tactical doctrine and zero tolerance for mavericks. After all, the Imperial military doctrine for the employment of fighters is ultimately backed personally by the emperor. To question tactical doctrine is to question the will and wisdom of the emperor, to violate tactical doctrine is to ignore orders handed down the chain of command from the emperor.

Certainly innovative tactics might provide victory to the unit, but at the cost of adherence to proper discipline and obedience to authority, and we can't have that. An innovator may have his ideas incorporated into future Imperial military doctrine, but the innovator is nearly certain to be on the wrong end of a firing squad for violating orders.

[Robert Treder]

A relatively simple answer might be the following: strict tactical doctrine and zero tolerance for mavericks. After all, the Imperial military doctrine for the employment of fighters is ultimately backed personally by the emperor. To question tactical doctrine is to question the will and wisdom of the emperor, to violate tactical doctrine is to ignore orders handed down the chain of command from the emperor.

Certainly innovative tactics might provide victory to the unit, but at the cost of adherence to proper discipline and obedience to authority, and we can't have that. An innovator may have his ideas incorporated into future Imperial military doctrine, but the innovator is nearly certain to be on the wrong end of a firing squad for violating orders.

Good take, and possibly quite true in most cases. However, we know that TIE officer Maarek Stele was recognized and rewarded by the Emperor's elite inner circle for demonstrating individuality and improvisation in battle. Though it should be noted that they didn't officially recruit Stele until it was clear that he was unwilling to defect with Admiral Harkov's forces.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Dude, Rogue Squadron walked through the 181'st like it was a day at the BEACH!

This was the TIE pilots who had been trained expressly for taking Wedge and Co down, by the guy who trained Wedge & Tycho. That was freaking STUPID!

[Darth Fanboy]

Dude, Rogue Squadron walked through the 181'st like it was a day at the BEACH!

This was the TIE pilots who had been trained expressly for taking Wedge and Co down, by the guy who trained Wedge & Tycho. That was freaking STUPID!

Which incarnation? IIRC They never whooped the 181st when Baron Fel was in command uness you count SW: Rogue Squadron mission "Liberation of Gerrard V" and the defection of Kasan Moor.

Turr Phennir took over after Fel defected and even then we didn't see any of them until The battle of Adumar and by then the Empire was looking pretty poor in comparison to what it was before the liberation of Coruscant.

[Thunderfire]

Stackpole gets all of his dogfighting ideas from Tie fighter vs. Xwing.
What can you expect?

X-Wing books are based on the game X-Wing AFAIK. XvT can't be
his source - X-Wings suck in XvT.

[Darth Fanboy]

Not if you're playing as the X Wing.

[Patrick Ogaard]

*snip my own stuff*

Good take, and possibly quite true in most cases. However, we know that TIE officer Maarek Stele was recognized and rewarded by the Emperor's elite inner circle for demonstrating individuality and improvisation in battle. Though it should be noted that they didn't officially recruit Stele until it was clear that he was unwilling to defect with Admiral Harkov's forces.

Inconsistency is always an option, with zero tolerance not being applied to those pilots actually demonstrating real talent and potential.


Also, I have the sneaking suspicion that the Empire's fighter pilot forces, especially later on, may operate on the same principle as WW2 Soviet fighter pilots: If you have an ace pilot, you pack as many expendable green pilots around the ace with orders to protect the ace who actually does the killing. Naturally, you lose green pilots by the bucketload, but the proven resources that aces represent are preserved. It would also be a potential explanation for the incongruity of Vader's fighter in ANH having two wingmen. A formation with one leader and two wingmen only really makes sense if the wingmen are there primarily to serve as ablative armor for the leader. Normal Imperial doctrine appears to use a more conventional arrangement of 2 fighters per element and 2 elements per flight, with wingmen following the lead of their leaders.

[Kuja]

Coruscant is what, a couple of months after Endor? No way the Empire could lose so many pilots in that short a time frame. Now, by the Thrawn Trilogy, they're screwed, and have to recruit, yes, but the X-Wing books are set in a time period where the Empire is still strong, and has massive reserves...

Three years.

Carida was essentially solid Imperial until that fag Kyp blew it to hell... You forget the true SCOPE of the Galactic Empire, like so many people..

Caridia chose to turn in on itself and become a fortress world, rather than go out and fight.

By the Thrawn trilogy, I'd have to agree, but not in the XWing book
time frame. That's just too close to Endor for a noticeable decline in
the pilot skills of the TIE corps...

I'd say three years of near-constant fighting can garner a lot of attrition, on BOTH sides.

Which incarnation? IIRC They never whooped the 181st when Baron Fel was in command uness you count SW: Rogue Squadron mission "Liberation of Gerrard V" and the defection of Kasan Moor.

That wasn't the 181st. It was the 129th TIE-Interceptor Squadron.

Dude, Rogue Squadron walked through the 181'st like it was a day at the BEACH!

During the Battle of Brentaal, didn't the Rogues lose something like six-seven pilots?

[Thunderfire]

Not if you're playing as the X Wing.

Only Z-95 and Tie Bombers are worse than X-Wings in XvT.
Simply look at the stats of the X-Wing in XvT.
All imperial crafts are more manuverable.
Their guns are bady placed.
They are big targets.
They can't be equiped with a beam weapon.

A Y/A/B-Wing is always a better choice for a rebel pilot.

[Stormbringer]

In part it's because the Empire suffers rather high attrition rate among TIE pilots. True they might well be given great training but train is still not real combat.

Second of all, the Empire seem to has a lot of the same sort of problems the Japanese had. A fighter with a low survival rate that eats newbie pilots up and doesn't seem to have an adequate program for sending veterans back to train the new pilots.

[Kuja]

Here's something I just thought of: aren't TIEs supposed to work in groups? What if they're so dependent on group skills and swarm manuevers, they've slacked off on the dogfighting?

[Master of Ossus]

TIE pilots are almost invariably morons because the writers are too lazy to come up with compelling and three dimensional enemies. It takes quite a bit of effort to make someone on the (eventually) losing side ACT intelligent, but you accomplish a reasonable facsimile of that goal by DESCRIBING them as intelligent. This difference between how a character acts and how he is described makes sense in the case of first-person novels, in which you chalk it up to narrator bias, but in the case of SW it is far more difficult to justify because the vast majority of the books are written in third person omniscient.

Why do you think Thrawn is the greatest SW EU villain of all time? It's because he was portrayed by his ACTIONS as being intelligent and menacing, as well as just his description. Any dumbass admiral can pick lint off their uniform (as practically all of them in the X-Wing series do), but it takes skill to do what Thrawn did. How you portray your villains, and come up with realistic plans for them to carry out, is part of what separates really good writers from the mediocre ones.

[Darth Fanboy]

That wasn't the 181st. It was the 129th TIE-Interceptor Squadron.

U sure?

[Darth Fanboy]

Not if you're playing as the X Wing.

Only Z-95 and Tie Bombers are worse than X-Wings in XvT.
Simply look at the stats of the X-Wing in XvT.
All imperial crafts are more manuverable.
Their guns are bady placed.
They are big targets.
They can't be equiped with a beam weapon.

A Y/A/B-Wing is always a better choice for a rebel pilot.

Y wings and B wings were too slow for the way I play, and as for the A wing, lets just say I also prefer the Quad lasers. I should have also said thats my preference out of the Rebel craft as I always did my best in the TIE Avengers.

[Kuja]

That wasn't the 181st. It was the 129th TIE-Interceptor Squadron.

U sure?

I've got the game. Played it last night. Yup, I'm sure.

[Darth Fanboy]

Aight then, I remember in the game that Wedge talks about the enemy squadron being the best of the best. So I choose to rmember as 181st. Ah well.

I think the EU and games don't give the TIE fighter enough credit. Sure they mention in passing that it has equal speed to an x wing and that the craft were equal save for the X wings shields/hyperdrives/and torpedoes (wait a sec....) But the Empire wouldn't have adopted the TIE Fighter had it not met some performance standards.

[Ghost Rider]

The TIEs do, but like Ossus pointed...it requires someone to make a decent villain.

The major factor I see though is simply the whole thought of indoctrination and that the TIE is meant as a swarming craft. The carft's manuverability is used almost as a retort to to it's lack of any survival for the pilot.

It, in of itself is cheap, easy to replace, and the whole top 1% I see as a brain bug given the whole fraility of the craft their putting that top 1% into.

The TIE is meant to be a craft when used in 10 to 1 odds to overhwelm any resistence, not a craft for one on one.

[TrekWarsie]

In the Battle of Brentaal, Rogue Squadron lost two of its pilots with Janson and Ibtisam unable to fight since their fighters had been shot down earlier. The first pilot loss was due to a TIE Fighter and not the 181st squadron. When the 181st came in, Rogue Squadron was getting the better part of the exchange, only losing one more pilot and Wedge also managed to beat Fel. Had the Y-Wing not ionized Fel's interceptor, Wedge would have probably been able to eventually beat Fel since he had already known that Fel had learned his usual moves.