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I was reading up on random stuff about Time Travel in Wars and found this interesting Force Power called "Fold Space"

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Fold_space

the description was that it was used as a form of Teleportation without Dematerialization or Rematerialization, like the Jedi used the Force to create a wormhole or something, thus removing the Spiritual/Philosophical issues of Transporters. I was curious as to if we could speculate as to how the Empire or new Republic might be able to recreate this effect via Technology, and what the Applications and limitations of it may be. If it would be completely a matter of Authors Fiat, how much would be considered reasonable and not wank or underpowered.

Azron_Stoma wrote:I was reading up on random stuff about Time Travel in Wars and found this interesting Force Power called "Fold Space"

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Fold_space

the description was that it was used as a form of Teleportation without Dematerialization or Rematerialization, like the Jedi used the Force to create a wormhole or something, thus removing the Spiritual/Philosophical issues of Transporters. I was curious as to if we could speculate as to how the Empire or new Republic might be able to recreate this effect via Technology, and what the Applications and limitations of it may be. If it would be completely a matter of Authors Fiat, how much would be considered reasonable and not wank or underpowered.

Some of the Ancient Star wars civilizations had matter transporters such as the Sharu (mentioned in Lando Calrissian and The Mindharp of Sharu as how Lando and his droid returned to the capital planet). It never described how this one worked though. I never understood the spiritual/philosophical issue of the Transporter especially given the diversity of the SW galaxy. Just by sheer numbers if the main reason they don't use transporters is a conscious objection we should have seen some other race using them on their own. More than likely technological developments made their use impratical.

Now for this Fold Space it does have potential. I don't see any reason why they can't use it in a technological way as the monks who taught Luke how to do it found a way to get their ships to do it.

If the Rakata could make a force powered hyperdrive then I bet you could make a "force fold machine".

The first interstellar space drive known to make use of hyperspace was developed by the Rakata, who built their Infinite Empire around technology using the dark side of the Force to travel through hyperspace.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperdrive

The way I see it, they can untilize Istil crystals to use the same "force-fold" ability, especially since they are force sensitive and can "fuse" with machines.

Wait, is it ever especially said that the rakata used the force to travel through the hypersace? All I see is a reference to force-attuned technologies, which might or might not mean that the force is powering the thing.

The reference you quoted might just mean that they use the force to navigate hyperspace, which is a concept well known and used by jedi - for example Luke Skywalker.

Thanas wrote:Wait, is it ever especially said that the rakata used the force to travel through the hypersace? All I see is a reference to force-attuned technologies, which might or might not mean that the force is powering the thing.

The reference you quoted might just mean that they use the force to navigate hyperspace, which is a concept well known and used by jedi - for example Luke Skywalker.

Alternatively, the force was used to push a ship into hyperspace, since they did not yet know a technological way.
That would still not be teleportation.

I'm completely ignorant of this issue, but just wondering, maybe technologies were developped to mimic those force-powered feats? It might indicate the ability to replicate the force technologically, at least to a certain point (wich would have been a research focus of any reasonable civilization)

Azron_Stoma wrote:I was reading up on random stuff about Time Travel in Wars and found this interesting Force Power called "Fold Space"

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Fold_space

the description was that it was used as a form of Teleportation without Dematerialization or Rematerialization, like the Jedi used the Force to create a wormhole or something, thus removing the Spiritual/Philosophical issues of Transporters. I was curious as to if we could speculate as to how the Empire or new Republic might be able to recreate this effect via Technology, and what the Applications and limitations of it may be. If it would be completely a matter of Authors Fiat, how much would be considered reasonable and not wank or underpowered.

We really don't know enough about the technique to guess at its limitations. We do know non-Force-sensitives can learn and use the technique, and that the Aing-Tii developed bio-tech in order to use the technique on a large scale. So, it should be reproducible by either the Republic or Empire (needing bio-tech or not being a question), but the big thing would be to get your hands on someone who actually knows the technique first.

This technology would probably replace Hyperdrive at the very least, and it is possible it could be used in combat to remove enemy physical weapons and transport your own directly onto enemy ships. Depending on how much infrastructure is necessary to support large-scale transports, it could eliminate the shipping industry in SW for all the affluent or security conscious powers. Consider Coruscant with its transport fleet removed since food and water is now just teleported directly to storage areas.

The Aing-Tii monks apparently use the Force to move their starships around without using hyperdrives, jumping instantaneously from one point in space to another, so it can be down and it being done.

I think the problem is that for some reason there’s been a severe lack of interest in studying the Force scientifically. Maybe I’m wrong and there’s a part of the EU where it is, but as far as I can tell practically all the people who study and/or manipulate the Force do so from a mystic/religious/philosophical point of view. It doesn’t make sense, since the Force seems to be one of the most pervasive and influential natural phenomena in the Star Wars universe. And it can be manipulated using technology. Why so little interest in doing it?

I would imagine that in the Star Wars universe leaving the Force out of the equation would be like leaving gravity out of scientific study altogether.

Didn't palps outlaw anything having to do with the jedi, weren't things erased from galactic databases and inquisitors sent out everytime someone tried to look up keywords like the force and midichlorians? Usually having said people dissapear off the face of the galaxy?

That's the only thig I can think of for the OT, maybe the Jedi and the Sith kept that kind of knowledge to themselves out of fear or contempt?

Jade Owl wrote:The Aing-Tii monks apparently use the Force to move their starships around without using hyperdrives, jumping instantaneously from one point in space to another, so it can be down and it being done.

I think the problem is that for some reason there’s been a severe lack of interest in studying the Force scientifically. Maybe I’m wrong and there’s a part of the EU where it is, but as far as I can tell practically all the people who study and/or manipulate the Force do so from a mystic/religious/philosophical point of view. It doesn’t make sense, since the Force seems to be one of the most pervasive and influential natural phenomena in the Star Wars universe. And it can be manipulated using technology. Why so little interest in doing it?

I would imagine that in the Star Wars universe leaving the Force out of the equation would be like leaving gravity out of scientific study altogether.

Ironically, EU Palpatine was probably the closest to any "scientific" study of the Force. In his "Science of Darkness" he set the assumption that the Force was merely a source of energy (as opposed to the Jedi superstition that makes it some kind of deity with a will of its own) and proceeded from there with a remarkably empirical mindset. Or such was my impression, at any rate.

There have been some scattered attempts to evaluate the Force with scientific methods (for example, examining the midichlorians and whether they could be transferred between individuals, and if I recall correctly Admiral Fyar from Jedi Knight II had some vaguely scientific investigation at work as well). Generally, though, it does indeed appear to have been ignored.

Fyar was treating the force as an energy source, but not to really study it, instead he tried to turn it into a weapon.

Fair enough, it has been number of years since last I played the game.

Another case I remembered: Nasdra Magrody apparently did some "experimentation" on Force effects, perhaps related to the chip he designed for Irek Ismaren in Children of the Jedi; I am unsure of the specifics there.

Jade Owl wrote:The Aing-Tii monks apparently use the Force to move their starships around without using hyperdrives, jumping instantaneously from one point in space to another, so it can be down and it being done.

I think the problem is that for some reason there’s been a severe lack of interest in studying the Force scientifically. Maybe I’m wrong and there’s a part of the EU where it is, but as far as I can tell practically all the people who study and/or manipulate the Force do so from a mystic/religious/philosophical point of view. It doesn’t make sense, since the Force seems to be one of the most pervasive and influential natural phenomena in the Star Wars universe. And it can be manipulated using technology. Why so little interest in doing it?

I would imagine that in the Star Wars universe leaving the Force out of the equation would be like leaving gravity out of scientific study altogether.

The Force only seems to have much effect in the hands of its adepts, because they're the only ones who can interact with it reliably. You can build machines to do the job, but a lot of them require a Force user to activate.

Also, there are historical reasons involved. The ancient Rakatans (the most recent set of "forgotten precursors" in the setting, several millenia before the rise of the Galactic Republic) used Force-based technology extensively, but the problem was that it was all Dark Side artifacts. That history may have much to do with why the new Force-using traditions of the Republic didn't embrace Force-based 'technomagic'.

The Jedi, in particular, would tend to try to suppress Force technology where possible, I gather; it's harder to explain why the Sith didn't make more extensive use of the technology when they had an active empire.

So in general, there are cases of Force-active technology. It can be done. But the technology usually doesn't work for just anybody, and the users have a bad habit of going power-mad and trying to destroy the galaxy. So it never entered mass production, except back in the day of the Rakatans... and they came to a nasty end.

Simon_Jester wrote:The Force only seems to have much effect in the hands of its adepts, because they're the only ones who can interact with it reliably.

wookiepedia wrote:The Aing-Tii had a different view of the Force from that of other Force-users:[5] they believed that even one who was not Force-sensitive could manipulate the energy field to do his or her bidding. Although Aing-Tii avoided using these "gifts," the monks could instantaneously move an object—ranging in size from small items to 300-meter-long ships—from one location to another, an ability not mastered by even the most powerful of Jedi or Sith. They were also able to teach this power to non-Force-sensitives.

Emphasis mine. If you can teach someone not especially sensitive to the force how to teleport objects over light years what else can you teach non-force sensitives? And if you aren't sensitive to the force, then how is the force going to corrupt you any more than ordinary power corrupts anyone?

Formless wrote:

Simon_Jester wrote:The Force only seems to have much effect in the hands of its adepts, because they're the only ones who can interact with it reliably.

wookiepedia wrote:The Aing-Tii had a different view of the Force from that of other Force-users:[5] they believed that even one who was not Force-sensitive could manipulate the energy field to do his or her bidding. Although Aing-Tii avoided using these "gifts," the monks could instantaneously move an object—ranging in size from small items to 300-meter-long ships—from one location to another, an ability not mastered by even the most powerful of Jedi or Sith. They were also able to teach this power to non-Force-sensitives.

Emphasis mine. If you can teach someone not especially sensitive to the force how to teleport objects over light years what else can you teach non-force sensitives? And if you aren't sensitive to the force, then how is the force going to corrupt you any more than ordinary power corrupts anyone?

We have no idea how far a single user of the technique can transport something (unless that's in the newer books) as in the Thrawn Duology, the Aing-Tii first appear in, the ships crew use the technique together with the ship to generate the "jump anywhere" effect. The only non-Force adept we see use the technique simply moves a heavy door out of the way and then puts it back. We have no clue as to how far away he moved it, but he certainly didn't move it farther than the planetary boundaries since it's just ridiculous otherwise.

We know a few things:
1) Non-force users can utilize the technique, the effectiveness of this is unknown (at least several tons over an unknown distance)
2) The technique can be utilized/enhanced by technological means
3) The technique is considered by the monks as neither Light side or Dark side
4) An unspecified number of users combined with technological assist can transport large object (i.e. spaceships) across lightyear distances instantly and without tripping Wars FTL sensors (the ships are described as appearing out of nowhere in the books from the perspective of the pirates)

If any more information is available from newer EU books, please fill in/correct what I've put up.

Formless wrote:Emphasis mine. If you can teach someone not especially sensitive to the force how to teleport objects over light years what else can you teach non-force sensitives?

I'm wrong. Most of the examples of Force-based technology that I am familiar with rely on the use of Force sensitives, but I am not familiar with the entire EU.

And if you aren't sensitive to the force, then how is the force going to corrupt you any more than ordinary power corrupts anyone?

The answer to this depends very heavily on the psychodynamics of the Force. Does using Force-based technology involve having the Force interacting with you, even if you are not normally sensitive? If so, it's quite possible that it can corrupt you when it couldn't reach you otherwise.

It's not that what you're saying is unreasonable. But I think that, like the use of independent AI and von Neumann machines, there are strong enough historical precedents in Star Wars to explain why the civilized galaxy doesn't rely on that kind of technology, even given that it is possible to construct it. Star Wars is in many ways a technologically conservative setting; they do not explore the full possibilities of all their own equipment, and many advanced applications are seen only in backwaters cut off from mainstream society.

That's foreign to our experience in real life, but I think it's understandable in Star Wars. Given how much damage can result from widespread use of Force-based technology, especially weaponry*, or from self-aware automated factories**, I can't blame them for being cautious.

*From the EU, one example of several is the Dark Reaper...
**Like the Star Forge, which is both Force-based and a somewhat self-aware automatic factory.

Simon_Jester wrote: it's harder to explain why the Sith didn't make more extensive use of the technology when they had an active empire.

Actually, that part I can understand. Empirical study of the Force and the Force-manipulating technology that could be derived from it could be used and researched by non-Force sensitives.

Not only would that erode their quasi-monopoly on the Force, it could potentially lead to widely available technological means of neutralizing and/or interfering with a Force sensitive’s powers. That would hit very close to home for the power obsessed Sith. Detailed empirical knowledge of the Force in lay hands would be a serious threat to the Sith and viewed as such by them.

This is another reason why the lack of empirical study of the Force in the Old Republic bothers me. One would think that someone in the Galaxy would at least try to research some technological method of neutralizing Force abilities, and those abilities of the Sith in particular.

Don't you need large quantities of spice to be able to pull off that trick?

Jade Owl wrote:This is another reason why the lack of empirical study of the Force in the Old Republic bothers me. One would think that someone in the Galaxy would at least try to research some technological method of neutralizing Force abilities, and those abilities of the Sith in particular.

The bulk of that empirical research was most likely done long ago... even before the Great Hyperspace War probably. By the Clone Wars, simple pirates had the means to imprison a Dark Lord of the Sith and two powerful Jedi Knights. We'd probably have seen more instances of anti-Force technology by now if the EU of the past few years wasn't so obsessed with the Jedi fighting the same old enemies (Sith, Mandos, disposable droids, ect.).

I meant a machine that could create the wormholes and fold space without the use of the force at all, like how the effect of Force Lightning could be recreated with a Gun that generates enormous amounts of electricity and fires it at the target, rather than by channeling the force.

The Hyperdrive analogy is a good one, the Rataka used the force to create the first Hyperdrives, the later ones were made without any use of the force whatsoever (at least that I know of).

Azron_Stoma wrote:I meant a machine that could create the wormholes and fold space without the use of the force at all

I imagine that nobody ever bothered trying to figure out a practical way to create wormholes in space without the aid of the Force simply because the hyperdrive is a much more economical invention. A wormhole can only connect one specific place to another, while a hyperdrive can let a ship go anywhere within that ship's range.

Otherwise, there are quite a few instances in the EU where technology can emulate the Force in some respects. Tractor beams are essentially Force Pull machines used on starships. Naga Sadow's trick of making stars go supernova can be done using resonance torpedos (Kevin J. Anderson seems to love having stars blow up..... sometimes I think he's Michael Bay's alterego). The World Devestators are basically miniature Star Forges that don't need the Force, except now they can repair/modify themselves along with acting as mobile factories. Whenever it's economical to do so, technology on numerous occasions has matched what a Force user can do.

Azron_Stoma wrote:I meant a machine that could create the wormholes and fold space without the use of the force at all, like how the effect of Force Lightning could be recreated with a Gun that generates enormous amounts of electricity and fires it at the target, rather than by channeling the force.

The Hyperdrive analogy is a good one, the Rataka used the force to create the first Hyperdrives, the later ones were made without any use of the force whatsoever (at least that I know of).

The only similarity between Force lightning and electricity is minor superficial looks. If a machine can fold space, we have yet to see it.

Azron_Stoma wrote:I
The Hyperdrive analogy is a good one, the Rataka used the force to create the first Hyperdrives, the later ones were made without any use of the force whatsoever (at least that I know of).

The only use of the Force was to navigate, modern Jedi could do the same thing as in the COPL. Early hyperdrives used other methods as well, such as hyperspace beacons.

Bellosh101 wrote: Otherwise, there are quite a few instances in the EU where technology can emulate the Force in some respects. Tractor beams are essentially Force Pull machines used on starships.

This is ridicules, the only similarity is that they both move things without physical contact. Are engines now a form of Force Push?

Naga Sadow's trick of making stars go supernova can be done using resonance torpedos

By using totally different methods? The only similarity is that they both make stars explode. Are Force lightning and blasters the same because they both kill people?

The World Devestators are basically miniature Star Forges that don't need the Force, except now they can repair/modify themselves along with acting as mobile factories.

There do seem to be similarities here, but the World Devastator doesn't seem to use the Force effects of the Star Forge. As Malak stated at the end of the game, the Star Force was much more than a mere factory, these other functions seemed to be the Dark Side energies in the station.

Whenever it's economical to do so, technology on numerous occasions has matched what a Force user can do.

While the same results can be obtained, there is no evidence that they use the same principles, which would be required to use technology to replace this Force power.