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I'm debating some moron at ST.com on a vs thread and one of the topics is the bunker scene in ROTJ where Leia is shot at by a stormtrooper (regarding blaster firepower), I'm attempting to establish whether the blaster bolt hit her arm or the frame of the door, as there doesn't seem to be any damage to the boor frame. Is there something I'm missing here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MkVEG25BEs

It might of grazed her arm but it looked like it hit her arm directly. I don't believe graze or reflected energy from a hit on the door would not have made her recoil as much from a hit. If it hit he door we would of seen sparks or damage to the door somewhere.

Could you post a link to the thread in question so we can watch it blow by blow?

Given her expression of pain and the scorch on her clothes, I'd call it a grazing hit. You can always just say that the blaster was low on juice.

It hit her arm. Besides, we know blasters have multiple settings-- there is no reason to assume they are always set to ass kicking mode like real firearms are. And ewoks don't wear any armor to speak of.

Or Star Wars fans have totally overpowered blaster fire.

I clearly hit her arm.

SapphireFox wrote:It might of grazed her arm but it looked like it hit her arm directly. I don't believe graze or reflected energy from a hit on the door would not have made her recoil as much from a hit.

Really. When people routinely recoil like that from stuff that doesn't even physically affect them AT ALL.

If it hit he door we would of seen sparks or damage to the door somewhere.

When a hit a few seconds earlier (and it's NOT the door, it's the entryway frame, the actual DOOR is behind Leia) leaves no mark whatsoever.
And no it DOESN'T look like it hit her arm.

even real word guns can have variable "settings" via special ammo, for example armor piercing rounds don't cause as much tissue damage (still enough to kill of course) as regular rounds but can penetrate armored targets more easily and may (especially if high power rounds are use) hyperpenetrate causing even less damage if use on "soft" targets.

it's not unreasonble to assume that the stormtroopers used the "enough to kill an unarmored or lightly armored target while having maximium number of shots possible", especially when you remember that both the rebels and ewoks had camoflage and as far as I know the stormtroopers had no idea just how many ewoks there were in the forrests.

also Leia and rest of the rebels were wearing what's essetially combat gear meaning it might have counted as light armor futher reducing the visible effects (blaster absorbing fabrics aren't uncommon if somewhat expensive (Count Dooku's cape for example)).

basically there's alot of good reasons why the shot didn't blow leia's arm off or turn her in to a smoldering corpse especially since it wasn't a direct hit.

Batman wrote:Really. When people routinely recoil like that from stuff that doesn't even physically affect them AT ALL.

So you would recoil faster from holding a lighter near your arm as opposed to using a branding iron on you. Interesting nervous system you have there.

Batman wrote:When a hit a few seconds earlier (and it's NOT the door, it's the entryway frame, the actual DOOR is behind Leia) leaves no mark whatsoever.
And no it DOESN'T look like it hit her arm.

maybe you have difficulty seeing properly bats but if you read it properly I said there was NO sparks OR damage on the door. Either of those would be indicative of a hit on the door. More importantly if there wasn't even a grazing hit then perhaps you can tell me why there is FIRE on her arm or a scream of pain and look of agony on her face.

Looking very closely, it clearly (well, very likely, but why break a winning streak?) only grazes her. Her uniform is set on fire, but there is no other damage visible, and the bolt looks to pass very closely over her arm, before sparks obscure everything. I suspect that the bolt may have impacted partly on the bunker after grazing her, producing some or all of the sparks. The lack of damage is explainable (remember, none of the weapons they had could have easily breached the door beyond possibly the demolition charges they had to save for the reactor anyways) in terms of the fact that it's an anti-personnel weapon against an armored bunker. It's like expecting to see significant damage when a shot hits a pillbox in a WWII film.

SapphireFox wrote: maybe you have difficulty seeing properly bats but if you read it properly I said there was NO sparks OR damage on the door. Either of those would be indicative of a hit on the door. More importantly if there wasn't even a grazing hit then perhaps you can tell me why there is FIRE on her arm or a scream of pain and look of agony on her face.

What? There are clearly sparks, a shower of them that obscure anything beyond noting that her uniform catches fire. Depending on the exact mechanism of the blaster involved, this may have been a near-miss that ignited her sleeve. In any case, we don't see the bolt impact.

SapphireFox wrote:It might of grazed her arm but it looked like it hit her arm directly. I don't believe graze or reflected energy from a hit on the door would not have made her recoil as much from a hit. If it hit he door we would of seen sparks or damage to the door somewhere.

Could you post a link to the thread in question so we can watch it blow by blow?

Here it is:
ST.com
It's very long and messy, either I'm doing something very stupid or this God in an alcove guy is being stubborn as a mule. There's another parallel argument between that marshall guy and point 45 in the same thread.

What? There are clearly sparks, a shower of them that obscure anything beyond noting that her uniform catches fire. Depending on the exact mechanism of the blaster involved, this may have been a near-miss that ignited her sleeve. In any case, we don't see the bolt impact.

After checking again you are correct, there were sparks. This makes it more likely to be a grazing shot than a direct hit but considering the affect on Leia it definitely was not a miss.

SapphireFox wrote:

Batman wrote:Really. When people routinely recoil like that from stuff that doesn't even physically affect them AT ALL.

So you would recoil faster from holding a lighter near your arm as opposed to using a branding iron on you. Interesting nervous system you have there.

Funny how I NEVER SAID THAT. I said people WILL recoil from stuff that never physically affects them, like loud noises, near misses...And I never said Leia WASN'T physically affected BTW. That burn on her arm had to come from SOMEWHERE. It just wasn't from an actual direct hit.

Batman wrote:When a hit a few seconds earlier (and it's NOT the door, it's the entryway frame, the actual DOOR is behind Leia) leaves no mark whatsoever.
And no it DOESN'T look like it hit her arm.

maybe you have difficulty seeing properly bats but if you read it properly I said there was NO sparks OR damage on the door.

That'd be the part where the door was never hit in the first place? The ENTRYWAY FRAME was apparently hit and YOU have a reading comprehension problem as a hit SECONDS BEFORE left NO VISIBLE DAMAGE either.

Either of those would be indicative of a hit on the door.

Given that the actual door was BEHIND Leia and was never hit, um-no.

More importantly if there wasn't even a grazing hit then perhaps you can tell me why there is FIRE on her arm or a scream of pain and look of agony on her face.

Splashed molten metal landing on her clothes/bleedoff from the blaster bolt. And I don't have a problem with a GRAZING hit.

Been thinking of cutting that clip together with this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-wFRCMgGfU

@8:00

As we can see Phasers on low power make similar effects, if anything Crusher wasn't hit as badly but it was clearly a direct hit. It's funny how they never bring up Greedo or any of the big booms we see blasters do. Oh no, it's always the same "leia's arm got hit if it and barely hurt, if it was a phaser her arm would have been blown off."

Happily ignoring the fact that the vast majority of phaser hits even at kill settings leave a a few dozen square centimeters of scorched PJs and-that's it.

Looking up close, the shot looks to hit her at least partially, but the most interesting part is that there are two "explosions" of sparks. One ignites, and as it dies down, the second blooms. This may suggest two impacts, potentially validating a grazing hit, especially since her arm doesn't rock back much from the impact of the bolt.

Azron_Stoma wrote:Been thinking of cutting that clip together with this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-wFRCMgGfU

@8:00

As we can see Phasers on low power make similar effects, if anything Crusher wasn't hit as badly but it was clearly a direct hit. It's funny how they never bring up Greedo or any of the big booms we see blasters do. Oh no, it's always the same "leia's arm got hit if it and barely hurt, if it was a phaser her arm would have been blown off."

Actually, this guy did bring up Greedo with the following:

Then I suppose Greedo must be a lot tougher than those walls, considering that his body stopped a shot from the very same blaster.

Of course, there's no evidence that those walls are made of anything stronger than adobe, so saying saying they're made to withstand rocket exhaust is a baseless claim.

This was when I brought up docking bay 94 as evidence for blaster power

Batman wrote:Funny how I NEVER SAID THAT. I said people WILL recoil from stuff that never physically affects them, like loud noises, near misses...And I never said Leia WASN'T physically affected BTW.

Yes people can and do recoil from non physical sources.

Batman wrote:

SapphireFox wrote: It might of grazed her arm but it looked like it hit her arm directly. I don't believe graze or reflected energy from a hit on the door would not have made her recoil as much from a hit.

Really. When people routinely recoil like that from stuff that doesn't even physically affect them AT ALL.

The way you worded your post seemed it imply that she wasn't physically affected. If you meant differently then sorry for the confusion.

Batman wrote:That'd be the part where the door was never hit in the first place? The ENTRYWAY FRAME was apparently hit and YOU have a reading comprehension problem as a hit SECONDS BEFORE left NO VISIBLE DAMAGE either.

Sorry if some people consider the door frame part of the whole door. So what if small arms fire had no effect on an armored bunker. The question is whether or not it hit Leia, not weather it can damage a bunker.

Batman wrote:Splashed molten metal landing on her clothes/bleedoff from the blaster bolt. And I don't have a problem with a GRAZING hit.

Splashed molten metal from a bunker with "NO VISIBLE DAMAGE"? that's funny. A grazing hit I can easily accept as well. Especially since it did not cause massive damage to her arm.

Why is this even a point of debate? Is the fuckwit arguing that blasters must be weak because of Leia's arm? Because we obviously have never seen blasters demonstrate their lethality umpteen fucking times in the canon?

Blasters have variable firepower, but its pointless to use high settings on fleshy targets - dead is fucking dead, you're just wasting ammo. Besides, they wanted Han and Leia alive. Why else do people think the Stormtroopers ran up and attempted capture after, when they could've shot them at any time?

Then I suppose Greedo must be a lot tougher than those walls, considering that his body stopped a shot from the very same blaster.

What a dumbfuck. Greedo was reduced to a smoky, audibly crispy blackened corpse.

Or Star Wars fans have totally overpowered blaster fire.

That's bullshit.

This:

Sandcrawler 1

Sandcrawler 2

is more impressive than burning Leia's arm. This was done by Stormtroopers, armed with E-11s, DLT-19s, and T-21s.

Let's quote the ANH novel:

Kenobi turned his attention to the sandcrawler. He pointed out where single weapons' bursts had blasted away portals, treads, and support beams.

Moving on.

This:

Greedo, Pre-Death

Greedo, hit

Greedo, dead

Is more impressive than burning Leia's arm. Note that Greedo's smoking corpse can be heard to be sizzling in the movie.

This:

Chest-burn

and

Chest-burn 2

Killed the troops in question. The weapon is the E-11.

This:

Grate

Grate-2

Is more impressive than burning Leia's arm. The weapon is, again, an E-11.

This:

Bolt incoming

Impact

Impact-2

Scar

Is more impressive than burning Leia's arm. The weapon is Boba Fett's EE-3.

This:

Hole

Is more impressive than burning Leia's arm. The weapon is, again, an E-11.

This:

Pre-Impact

Impact-1

Impact-2

Impact-3

Impact-4

Is more impressive than burning Leia's arm. It's an E-11.

So is this:

Pre-Impact

Impact-1

Impact-2

And this:

Hole-in-armor

Hole-2

And this:

Impact-1

And this:

Link

And this:

Impact-2

Impact-2

Awesome work Vympel, those pictures really show the high end of blaster firepower well.

Hey, Vymp, just a heads up, but Hole-in-Armour is coming up as a 404.

A question:

Do we even need to invoke variable power settings? Why not just assume different blasters? Maybe the stormtroopers on Endor are carrying low-powered antipersonnel guns because they're the security detail for a lot of expensive equipment, and nobody wants a "weapons malfunction" blowing holes in the shield generator that guards the Death Star.

I mean, their target backstop is an armored bunker with walls too tough for Han's DL-44 to breach; if they had higher power settings I think they would use them to shoot at Han and Leia on Endor.

Hey, Vymp, just a heads up, but Hole-in-Armour is coming up as a 404.

Yeah I know, I was going to fix it but my bandwith has been shaped (fucking Telstra), which makes doing anything very tedious unfortunately.

Do we even need to invoke variable power settings? Why not just assume different blasters?

Because they're clearly not different blasters. And what's wrong with variable power settings? They've been part of the canon since the ANH novelization, which has Luke turn up the setting on his E-11 to blow away a door (not in the movie, of course, but its still very common).

I mean, their target backstop is an armored bunker with walls too tough for Han's DL-44 to breach; if they had higher power settings I think they would use them to shoot at Han and Leia on Endor.

Why? Its obvious they weren't trying to kill Han and Leia.

Norade wrote:Awesome work Vympel, those pictures really show the high end of blaster firepower well.

I agree, those are great. If you don't mind I'll shove some in that guys face, see how he deals with it.

Vympel wrote:Because they're clearly not different blasters. And what's wrong with variable power settings? They've been part of the canon since the ANH novelization, which has Luke turn up the setting on his E-11 to blow away a door (not in the movie, of course, but its still very common).

I see. I still wouldn't be surprised to find low-powered E-11 variants in certain applications (just as there are versions of the M4 carbine sold to law enforcement that cannot fire on full automatic).

It always struck me as a bit odd, though, the way multiple power settings work (in any universe). The applications are obvious, but when you're talking about varying weapon power output over orders of magnitude like that, it's got to add a fair amount of cost and complexity to the weapon.

I mean, their target backstop is an armored bunker with walls too tough for Han's DL-44 to breach; if they had higher power settings I think they would use them to shoot at Han and Leia on Endor.

Why? Its obvious they weren't trying to kill Han and Leia.

I'm not sure I follow. The only evidence for this I can think of off the top of my head is "well, they weren't using a very high power setting," which would make this argument a circle...