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Who would win in a battle? The Grand Army of the Republic? Or the Imperial Stormtrooper Corps?

There are more Stormtroopers, giving them an advantage.
However, the clones do have some more "technology". And example of this is that in one of the Star Wars "official guides" or something like that that was C-canon, it showed that Stormtrooper helmets have basically eyeholes, a filter, and a comlink. However, in the Republic Commando series of books, it often describes clone trooper helmets of having HUD's and views through the helmets of other clone helmets and such.

So who wins?

NOTE: THIS IS A POLL AND A DISCUSSION. I want to start a discussion, not just people voting.

Stormtrooper helmets come equipped with some kind of HUD as well.

This is pure and utter idiocy, or a troll.

fajner1 wrote:Who would win in a battle? The Grand Army of the Republic? Or the Imperial Stormtrooper Corps?

There are more Stormtroopers, giving them an advantage.
However, the clones do have some more "technology".

Based on?

And example of this is that in one of the Star Wars "official guides" or something like that that was C-canon, it showed that Stormtrooper helmets have basically eyeholes, a filter, and a comlink. However, in the Republic Commando series of books, it often describes clone trooper helmets of having HUD's and views through the helmets of other clone helmets and such.

Stormtroopers do too, we have a cutaway of the ST helmet on the main site from one of the guides and I can grab my Ultimate Visual Dictionary, it's a lot more extensive than that. A Stormies helmet includes the MFTAS which allows them to see in a multitude of spectrums.

The Imperial Stormtroopers win, they have parity of arms and better in a number of cases, outnumbering the closes by at least 3-2. According to Pax Empirical.

Thanas wrote:This is pure and utter idiocy, or a troll.

Is there any reason behind that post?

I'm pretty sure that stormtrooper helms have at some kind of nightvision mode, but I got no way of proving atm.

atm I have to say we need more data before making any worth while discussion

what's the battlefield like?

standard kit or optimized towards the enemy?

is the unit composition "standard" or optimized?

do they know who they're fighting?

what support they got access to?

However, the clones do have some more "technology".

I'm pretty sure the stormtroopers corps have access to all clone wars era tech the empire has, but doesn't use it as it's unfit for fighting the rebels (who unlike the CIS don't fighting in massed battles out side of the RTS games).

what's the battlefield like?

three battlefields: utapau, space cruiser, and tatooine

standard kit or optimized towards the enemy?

standard

is the unit composition "standard" or optimized?

standard

do they know who they're fighting?

They know only who the enemy is, but don't know their tactics or anything

what support they got access to?

LAAT/i gunships, LAAT/c gunships, AT-TE Walkers, AT-ST walkers, AT-AT walkers (both sides get all five types, and just assume that the clones can operate AT-ATs and AT-STs)

Why doesn't the Empire get access to it's MAAT/i, their successor for the LAAT/i? Also why would he have to assume Clones know how to use AT-AT, they had early variants at the Battle of Jabiim.

To make it so that both sides have the same conditions.

fajner1 wrote:To make it so that both sides have the same conditions.

So what you really want is Clonetrooper Vs Recruit and you don't actually care about Imperial Stormtrooper Corps Vs Clonetroopers, thanks for wasting our time trying to work on the specifics.

Fine lets change it then. Clones get all of the vehicles they used that go on ground or atmosphere and stormtroopers get all the vehicles they used that go on ground or atmosphere.

Stormtroopers win by default due to superior numbers and equal at the WORST(and very likely superior) equipment and you DO know the Stormtroopers were actually built AROUND the Clone Wars era clonetroopers, right?

I'd actually think the Clones would fare better. As the Clones in the AOTC/ROTS era seemed to be very heavily kitted and come with all sorts of heavy artillery befitting an outfit designed to fight a bigass war. Whereas the Stormies in ANH/ESB/ROTJ seem to have lighter kit, and optimized for police/peacekeeping/COIN operations instead of waging a bigass conventional war. This is, of course, based on just movie observation without any extraneous EU stuff from the EU.

fajner1 wrote:

Thanas wrote:This is pure and utter idiocy, or a troll.

Is there any reason behind that post?

Yes. Your scenario is devoid of any meaning since we a) know what happens when clones go up against stormies - the clones lose b) your scenario is completely out there and nonsensical. A better question would have been whether the clone tactics/equipment is superior or not.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I'd actually think the Clones would fare better. As the Clones in the AOTC/ROTS era seemed to be very heavily kitted and come with all sorts of heavy artillery befitting an outfit designed to fight a bigass war. Whereas the Stormies in ANH/ESB/ROTJ seem to have lighter kit, and optimized for police/peacekeeping/COIN operations instead of waging a bigass conventional war. This is, of course, based on just movie observation without any extraneous EU stuff from the EU.

from what I've seen from the EU this seems largely correct with the emperial forces opimized to fight "small scale" battles rather then the big conventional battles from the clone wars, that said the empire seems to have equipment for large scale battles it's just not normally used (which kind of makes sence as the rebel alliance wouldn't surrender to large scale battle unless they had no choice).

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I'd actually think the Clones would fare better. As the Clones in the AOTC/ROTS era seemed to be very heavily kitted and come with all sorts of heavy artillery befitting an outfit designed to fight a bigass war. Whereas the Stormies in ANH/ESB/ROTJ seem to have lighter kit, and optimized for police/peacekeeping/COIN operations instead of waging a bigass conventional war. This is, of course, based on just movie observation without any extraneous EU stuff from the EU.

Don't mean to jump your shit, Shroom, cause you're a brosef. But which skirmish do you think would have called for artillery and gunships? ANH had no real ground combat between the two major factions except inside a starship, ESB had them fighting through a theater shield that would've stopped an ISD let alone artillery that repulsorlifts can't fly through due to not being grounded, and RotJ was a spec-ops raid at a hidden bunker. The Empire has all that stuff you mentioned, it's just in 4th Generation Warfare if one side has an overwhelming advantage in equipment you're not going to engage them conventionally if you can help it.

Lord Revan wrote:from what I've seen from the EU this seems largely correct with the emperial forces opimized to fight "small scale" battles rather then the big conventional battles from the clone wars, that said the empire seems to have equipment for large scale battles it's just not normally used (which kind of makes sence as the rebel alliance wouldn't surrender to large scale battle unless they had no choice).

My First Sergeant in BCT was a 13-series (Field Artillery) in charge of a Battery of Paladin Self-Propelled Howitzers and has been deployed to Iraq twice. Do you know how many firing missions he did in Iraq? Not a one, turns out when you're fighting insurgents a lot of your other jobs turn into ad hoc infantry units to deal with it. Would you argue the US Army is not optimized for conventional battles?

Would you argue the US Army is not optimized for conventional battles?

no I wouldn't but unlike the empire, the US does have enemies/threats that justify a large conventional army (maybe not as big as the current US military is but still).

ever since the CIS fell the Galactic empire had no threats beond few separist left overs and/or rebel factions neither of which need a large conventional army to be dealt with. If most if not all the "battles" you fought in last 20 years or so resembled more the current Iraq operation then WW2 wouldn't you disband those field artillery and other similar unit if they're not gonna be used anyway (or at least turn them into specialist units that are deployed if needed rather then something that's that's deployed as a standard part of an imperial military force).

Now I know, that the Galactic Empire is far more ruthless then the US, but the empire never striked to me as something that, would flatten a city or destroy infrastructure for shits and giggles.

as your typical SW planetary militia wouldn't have artillery pieces capable punching thru starship grade armor, not to mention the empire would most likely have space seriourity, they wouldn't need all the heavy hardware the Clone Army has as standard, how ever as I said before the empire does how in all likelyhood have access to clone wars era hardware (or it's modern equilevants) should need arise, like fighting the clone army unit with it's standard gear and hardware.

Lord Revan wrote:

Now I know, that the Galactic Empire is far more ruthless then the US, but the empire never striked to me as something that, would flatten a city or destroy infrastructure for shits and giggles.

Base Delta Zero?
Death Star?
etc?

I feel that the Stormtrooper Corps would most certainly have the decisive advantage due to the reasons stated before of equal to superior equipment, numbers etc.

But I didn't see people mention the training/skills. Didn't Stormtrooper recruits have to meet the same standard as their Clone counterparts/predecessors and if they didn't make the cut they were put over to the regular army?

As for Clone Trooper Kit etc, the Sandtroopers carried some pretty big guns, same with the Snow Troopers. I don't recall Clone Troopers in the films using T-21s or E-Webs.

Lord Revan wrote:

Would you argue the US Army is not optimized for conventional battles?

no I wouldn't but unlike the empire, the US does have enemies/threats that justify a large conventional army (maybe not as big as the current US military is but still).

ever since the CIS fell the Galactic empire had no threats beond few separist left overs and/or rebel factions neither of which need a large conventional army to be dealt with.

Your argument falls apart right there since Palps was preparing for the Vong.

Now I know, that the Galactic Empire is far more ruthless then the US, but the empire never striked to me as something that, would flatten a city or destroy infrastructure for shits and giggles.

Except they did, see Caamas.

as your typical SW planetary militia wouldn't have artillery pieces capable punching thru starship grade armor, not to mention the empire would most likely have space seriourity, they wouldn't need all the heavy hardware the Clone Army has as standard, how ever as I said before the empire does how in all likelyhood have access to clone wars era hardware (or it's modern equilevants) should need arise, like fighting the clone army unit with it's standard gear and hardware.

Except the Rebels did, though not in large numbers.

But I didn't see people mention the training/skills. Didn't Stormtrooper recruits have to meet the same standard as their Clone counterparts/predecessors and if they didn't make the cut they were put over to the regular army?

No, the top 10% of the Imperial Army was chosen for additional training to become Stormtroopers, they're trained by CT veterans. The top ten percent of those become Imperial Guardsmen.

As for Clone Trooper Kit etc, the Sandtroopers carried some pretty big guns, same with the Snow Troopers. I don't recall Clone Troopers in the films using T-21s or E-Webs.

Z-6 for the T-21.
EWHB-12 for the E-Web.

Frankly, I don't understand the sense of this topic. According to the time period, Stormtroopers may be just Clonetroopers who have just been renamed with the birth of the Empire or the armies of the Empire equipped with more modern weapon or the very same weapon of the Clonetroopers in a more modern variant. In the first case, the victory depends on wich unit has been upgraded with the Phase II armor, in the latter the Clones are in big trouble (particularly evident if we put the Grand Army version of a unit against its counterpart from the Imperial time. Grand Army 501st Legion against Yavin-era 501st? No contest: the valor is the same, the guns are not).

A battle of that sort happened in the Star Wars universe in the Kamino Uprising. The Stormtroopers won

General Mung Beans wrote:A battle of that sort happened in the Star Wars universe in the Kamino Uprising. The Stormtroopers won

Proving exactly my point: ergonomy won the battle (501st Legion had already stormtrooper armor, Anti-troopers still had the old Clonetrooper Phase I armor).

General Schatten wrote:Don't mean to jump your shit, Shroom, cause you're a brosef. But which skirmish do you think would have called for artillery and gunships? ANH had no real ground combat between the two major factions except inside a starship, ESB had them fighting through a theater shield that would've stopped an ISD let alone artillery that repulsorlifts can't fly through due to not being grounded, and RotJ was a spec-ops raid at a hidden bunker. The Empire has all that stuff you mentioned, it's just in 4th Generation Warfare if one side has an overwhelming advantage in equipment you're not going to engage them conventionally if you can help it.

Very good point. But, still. If the actions in ANH, ESB and ROTJ are any indication, it seems like the Galactic Civil War's battles almost never called for artillery and gunships anyway. That doesn't mean that they're not there, all those Clone War-era conventional wargear. But it means that the average group of Stormtroopers will mostly be going around equipped for COIN operations whereas the average group of Clone Troopers will be going around equipped with conventional war gear. The average Stormtrooper, like those deployed from the ISDs in ANH, are probably going to be kitted differently from the Clone Troops deployed from an AOTC/ROTS-era Acclamator/Venator. Hell, you can see that most Stormies have smaller blaster carbines while most Clonies have those blaster long rifles.

But... who knows? Clone Troopers are used to fighting fucking stupid Roger Roger droids, whereas Stormies are fighting everything from cunning Rebels to rabid Ewoks. All a Clone Trooper might know might be just, attack the enemy in a massive formation (as seen in AOTC) whereas a Stormie might have a better grasp at tactics since he has to fight a smarter non-moron enemy and he's not mass produced and mass deployed as fodder against the robot hordes of killbots (who have to be swamped with wave after wave of Clones until their pre-set kill-meter run out!).

The E-11 is a rifle with a fold-out stock. We see it in the movies almost entirely in a 'carbine' size but the stock is there to be pulled out. EDIT: sorry, that's in reply to Shroomy.

I'd give it to the Stormtroopers at any rate. Clonetroopers seem like the beta release of Stormtroopers anyway. Stormies are version 2.0