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This is a text I translated from Russian. The text was written by one "Hungry Ewok". Not sure which points mentioned were discussed on this forum, but I find the text rather interesting.


The Endor Battle. The analysis of the obvious and the not very obvious.


Prelude.


The marvelous panorama of the battle – land as well as space – shown in EpVI impresses a lot… and after an analysis – leaves an equally strong impression about the incompetence of both sides.


Part one: flight analysis

Empire: The Emperor delivered a nice provocation, but his incompetence ruined it all. For starters he ignored the first sign of things going not as planned – Luke’s arrival definitely didn’t go as he expected, yet he still tried to play as planned, and as a result:

A) Fucked up an excellent moment for the destruction of the Alliance; when the fleet realized that the field works – if DSII would have right then blasted the biggest Alliance ships into dust, and the Imperial fleet would have gone to finish off the survivors, the destruction of the Alliance would have been inevitable.

B) Wasted his men in order to show off before Luke – thus giving the Alliance an opportunity to regroup, and then intermingle with the Imperials, thus neutralizing the abilities of the DS.

C) Didn’t consider the possibility of fatherly feelings awakening in Vader (as well as them coming to an agreement and finishing him off, although that variant was not realized).

As a result, he lost the DS, the Empire and his life. Good riddance – the sooner will perish an Empire with such an Emperor, into which you have to force people with DS – the better.

The Alliance – as always, those are merry fellows. To land a ground team, and then to leap into the battle with their entire fleet, without any signal… no, I don’t buy it. And if the shuttle had disappeared/would have been destroyed/captured? The time of the fleet exiting hyper was known, couldn’t they just send a signal “Everything’s OK”? Well, at least the Alliance can be understood – too much at stake, hence the hurry with all entailing.

And finally, the third force. Looks fine on its own, and compared to the others – they are geniuses. With an incredible advantage of the Empire – to prepare and plan an attack, so that advantage will be if not neutralized then near so. To learn a lot about the enemy, with the enemy knowing very little about it – with what was known, ensuring them they were safe. To include into their plans a suddenly appearing factor and use it successfully, in such a manner that the new allies considered them savages…

Who? I’m talking about Ewoks.

Those little cute teddy bears. Savages. Extremely naïve. Round, huge and trusting eyes. A touching image, which makes it so easy to forget that those cuties have ruined a lot of Imperial Tech, and slaughtered (maybe also ate later; where else could all the food for the celebrations come from, eh?) Most of the Imperil garrison, thus winning for the Rebels the surface, and thus, space, battle.

Is the victory so unbelievable? At first glance – yes. Savages with clubs and spears vs blasters and AT-ST’s… no chances.

But if you look closer…


Part 2: The Golden god and the others


Lets start at the beginning. That is, the meeting between the Ewok team and the Rebel team. We’ll pass the meeting between Leia and Wicket, since that’s not an indicator; lets note, however, that Wicket knew exactly who his friends are and quickly accepted the fact that some of the aliens are his friends. We’ll also note the fact that after some, probably, not very long time, a rather large group of Ewoks appeared at the same place – we must conclude from that either that there are Ewoks running all over the place there (unlikely) or that Wicket was that team’s scout. In this case, it’s all clear – he and Leia went away from the clearing, met the team, they talked, then he and Leia went into the village, with the team giving the Rebels a nice welcome.


The meeting between Ewoks and Rebels


Fact 0: preliminary.


How, exactly, could a shuttle headed for the planet disappear? The arrival was noted at the DS-II, but not at the base – suspicious. Most likely, the Rebels faked a crash – thus the Imperial patrols which the team met. The rest of the time, considering the goofiness of the bunker guards, they didn’t leave the proximity of the base.


Fact 1.


So, the Ewoks meet the rebels. At this moment, we already have some doubts about their naïve and fanatical faith in the “Golden god”. Suck a mob couldn’t have simply come and hide without anyone noticing, meaning they were already there when said god fell into the trap, and saw it perfectly.


Fact 2.


Then there is the moment of Luke and the others being disarmed, and it’s worth noting that Ewoks knew human weapons and were very prudent – they even took Luke’s saber.


Fact 3


A bit later, in the village, when the “god” explicitly demanded to release his friends – the Ewok said “shove off”.

I can understand a pagan treating gods like that. But it doesn’t match the image of a god who can send you to fight a totally unnecessary war. Also – later said worshiped god is allowed to leave, without any escort, and is also treated with extreme familiarity all the remaining time…


Fact 4


I would like you to pay attention – No one intended to eat Luke and the others. Because the quarry is slaughtered and gutted before cooking, and the savages are the ones to know it best.

What we saw, I would define as a show for the Rebels. Why did the Ewoks need it – that’s another matter… I would say that they wanted to see how they’ll behave. If I wanted to make a very wild assumption – I would say that some mildly Force skilled Ewok shaman used the confusion for a surface probe of the Rebel brains – they had to know who these aliens are, so similar to those white tins.


Fact 5


Ewoks later show absolutely normal attitude toward tech – no religious fear from neither a lightning throwing R2D2, nor stormtroopers, nor speeders, nor an AT-ST.


Fact 6


Another not very obvious detail. A savage hunting tribe cannot have such a village. Because it takes a long time to build, requires maintenance, and feeding its population becomes harder and harder, since the game around it will be eaten or scared away. Judging from the number of Ewoks participating in the battle – it will happen very fast. So, as a permanent settlement, that’s nonsense. But as a temporary military camp – a very good base.


Pre-battle events:


Fact 7


Ewoks knew well the planning of the Imperial buildings. It was an Ewok who told the rebels that there is a spare exit – and it’s no simple task for a naïve savage; to make the connection between two very distant structures.


Fact 8


Ewoks knew how to use military tech. On the level of “press here and pull here” (but you can train an acceptable soldier with that mentality). An Ewok managed to start a speeder. Ewoks knew how to use guns – later, during combat, there as an Ewok shown with a Stormtrooper’s rifle, and held it the proper way. Since no one will throw away his weapon in favor of an object he can’t use, and which is lousy even as a club, the Ewok knew what it was and where to press.

Moreover – when a couple of Ewoks got into an AT-ST’s cabin – they immediately made the connection between controlling a speeder and said AT-ST, and started pulling the levers.


The battle itself.


Fact 9.


The Ewok army was gathered long before the meeting with the Rebels, and came to the bunker without them knowing, and before Wicket ran away (leaving the “golden god”, by the way), when they saw the stormtroopers chasing the Rebels into the bunker. Otherwise, you can’t explain the army appearing near the bunker in such short order. Getting to the village, gathering the people, getting back… takes quite awhile.


Fact 10, actually the last one, which is demonstrated throughout the battle.


Ewoks already had, before they met the Rebels, a prepared defense line near the bunker. And it was built very intelligently – close in, the most primitive, easily disguisable, further in – more and more serious, up to and including the two logs on the ropes. It should also be noted that the calculations concerning this tech were not one minute work – adjusting a catapult fire, striking an AT-ST with two logs simultaneously – those are things that require experience.


Part 3. Conclusions from the facts.


1.Pre-battle preparation.


Ewoks didn’t "just" decide, or agree, to fight the Imperials – the decision was made long before they met the Rebels. I don’t know what the Imperials did to anger them, but judging from the impudence they showed in the other episodes – they likely did.

The facts show that a well organized intelligence was working against the enemy – the spies gathered info about the construction, about how the enemy handles his tech, the data collected was analyzed, and the conclusions were delivered to the rank and file of the tribes.

The construction of defense lines began, most likely, soon after the bunker was built. In any event, this construction and the mobilization of forces was virtually complete by the time the Ewoks and the Rebels met – most likely, the day of the Ewok attack was not far, and the unexpected meeting didn’t throw off the plans significantly.


2. The battle itself.

In case the Rebels happen to have a superweapon capable of wiping the main building off the face of Endor, they were brought to the primary complex. When it turned out they can’t level it – the Ewoks used the Rebels as initially planned; a distraction.

The main Ewok forces have overnight taken positions in the forest around the bunker, a large enough camouflaged unit was near the bunker, and with the Rebel team, they sent the scouts, whose mission was: to lead the Rebels to the target, if needed, to distract the Imperials, and most importantly, when the Empire will take the bait – to tell the attack force “go”.

The attack force’s mission was – to strike a surprise attack at the Imperials, thus relieving the Rebels and allowing them to enter the fight, and then – to retreat without a major battle, to lead the enemy after them.

This part was successfully – and that was when the Imperials lost. Because, as was mentioned – a well built defense line awaited the enemy in the forest. As a result – the Imperial forces had to fight under conditions forced upon them, on territory which the enemy knew like the palm of his paw, and where the advantage of firearms is minimal; haw much can you do with a blaster if someone in the forest attacks you from behind? Exactly.


3. The main conclusion

The Ewoks weren't as savage as they wanted to appear

Summing up:

The Ewok victory during the Endor battle was the natural outcome.

P.S.

And considering that according to one EU book a few Ewoks went adventuring with the Rebels – I won’t be surprised to see one day a Star Cruiser “General Wicket” built by Endor Yards.

That.... actualy makes sense. I always disliked the Ewoks because they seemed to cartoonish to have won like they did. But this does make some good points.

While "Hungry Ewok" makes a good (and obvious) point that the Ewok tribes probably collectively considered the Empire as a threat, and hence had some rudimentary tribal alliance and preparations for possible war against the Imperials in place, I find the rest of his leaps in logic rather laughable.

This is... pretty good. It gives me the image of an Ewok tribal confederation uniting under some heroic leader (the Ewok equivalent of Geronimo or Shaka?), preparing an elaborate siege line around the Imperial bases, and trying to figure out a way to crack their defenses.

That may also explain why the Imperials don't maintain a broad perimeter: any small outposts they place get mobbed by cannibal teddy bears and usually don't come back. It's only by using the mobility advantage of speeder bikes that they can avoid this, and even then it's only because the Ewoks have learned that trying to ambush the speeder patrols is more trouble than it's worth, because the Imperials will reply to that in considerable force.

And yes, that's contra good infantry doctrine, and there are ways to solve it. It still relies on the Imperial officers screwing up... but we already knew they were screwups anyway.

I know a lot of people always used to wonder how the Ewoks managed to have all of those elaborate traps set up to attack the scout walkers. This explains it much better than the Ewoks being really fast builders.

Omeganian wrote: Part one: flight analysis

Empire: The Emperor delivered a nice provocation, but his incompetence ruined it all. For starters he ignored the first sign of things going not as planned – Luke’s arrival definitely didn’t go as he expected, yet he still tried to play as planned, and as a result:

A) Fucked up an excellent moment for the destruction of the Alliance; when the fleet realized that the field works – if DSII would have right then blasted the biggest Alliance ships into dust, and the Imperial fleet would have gone to finish off the survivors, the destruction of the Alliance would have been inevitable.

B) Wasted his men in order to show off before Luke – thus giving the Alliance an opportunity to regroup, and then intermingle with the Imperials, thus neutralizing the abilities of the DS.

C) Didn’t consider the possibility of fatherly feelings awakening in Vader (as well as them coming to an agreement and finishing him off, although that variant was not realized).

A makes assumptions that are unfounded. The fleet was said to be blocking retreat for the rebels, so any time it takes to set up the fleet becomes the minimal time required before the DS can begin firing upon the rebellion.

The Alliance – as always, those are merry fellows. To land a ground team, and then to leap into the battle with their entire fleet, without any signal… no, I don’t buy it. And if the shuttle had disappeared/would have been destroyed/captured? The time of the fleet exiting hyper was known, couldn’t they just send a signal “Everything’s OK”? Well, at least the Alliance can be understood – too much at stake, hence the hurry with all entailing.

Plus any transmissions could have been detected, which is why modern Special forces often act on timing rather than calling.

Part 2: The Golden god and the others


Lets start at the beginning. That is, the meeting between the Ewok team and the Rebel team. We’ll pass the meeting between Leia and Wicket, since that’s not an indicator; lets note, however, that Wicket knew exactly who his friends are and quickly accepted the fact that some of the aliens are his friends. We’ll also note the fact that after some, probably, not very long time, a rather large group of Ewoks appeared at the same place – we must conclude from that either that there are Ewoks running all over the place there (unlikely) or that Wicket was that team’s scout. In this case, it’s all clear – he and Leia went away from the clearing, met the team, they talked, then he and Leia went into the village, with the team giving the Rebels a nice welcome.


The meeting between Ewoks and Rebels


Fact 0: preliminary.


How, exactly, could a shuttle headed for the planet disappear? The arrival was noted at the DS-II, but not at the base – suspicious. Most likely, the Rebels faked a crash – thus the Imperial patrols which the team met. The rest of the time, considering the goofiness of the bunker guards, they didn’t leave the proximity of the base.

One wrong fact. It was noted by the executor and darth vader specifically. One must remember that Vader wanted to have Luke join him in over throwing the Emperor. A forgotten faucet of the situation is that Luke is captured by "scouts", but brought to the landing pad in an AT-AT. Does it make sense for heavy armor to be acting as prison transport or in a command role for the scouting elements? The second possibility has been ignored.

Fact 1.


So, the Ewoks meet the rebels. At this moment, we already have some doubts about their naïve and fanatical faith in the “Golden god”. Suck a mob couldn’t have simply come and hide without anyone noticing, meaning they were already there when said god fell into the trap, and saw it perfectly.

What does this mean?

Fact 2.


Then there is the moment of Luke and the others being disarmed, and it’s worth noting that Ewoks knew human weapons and were very prudent – they even took Luke’s saber.


Fact 3


A bit later, in the village, when the “god” explicitly demanded to release his friends – the Ewok said “shove off”.

I can understand a pagan treating gods like that. But it doesn’t match the image of a god who can send you to fight a totally unnecessary war. Also – later said worshiped god is allowed to leave, without any escort, and is also treated with extreme familiarity all the remaining time…


Fact 4


I would like you to pay attention – No one intended to eat Luke and the others. Because the quarry is slaughtered and gutted before cooking, and the savages are the ones to know it best.

What we saw, I would define as a show for the Rebels. Why did the Ewoks need it – that’s another matter… I would say that they wanted to see how they’ll behave. If I wanted to make a very wild assumption – I would say that some mildly Force skilled Ewok shaman used the confusion for a surface probe of the Rebel brains – they had to know who these aliens are, so similar to those white tins.

This is entirely wild ass grabbing. Threepio had made not of the fact that he didn't fully understand them, as such when he worded his request he might have made a faux pas and used a non divine tense. Something as simple as that explains the scene with out inventing extra factors. Occams Razor.

Fact 5


Ewoks later show absolutely normal attitude toward tech – no religious fear from neither a lightning throwing R2D2, nor stormtroopers, nor speeders, nor an AT-ST.

And they never showed a 'religious' fear to tech, just from Luke pulling out his supernatural powers on them. Oh whats that supernatural powers from a member of a religious order being treated with religious fear? Say it ain't so!

Fact 6


Another not very obvious detail. A savage hunting tribe cannot have such a village. Because it takes a long time to build, requires maintenance, and feeding its population becomes harder and harder, since the game around it will be eaten or scared away. Judging from the number of Ewoks participating in the battle – it will happen very fast. So, as a permanent settlement, that’s nonsense. But as a temporary military camp – a very good base.

Again ass pulling. Since when are the Ewoks hunters only? I do believe that we see drying plants hanging about in the Chief's hut, just like one would see in any permanent encampment in the middle ages of Earth. So if my recollections are right this is just another ass pull.

Pre-battle events:

Fact 7

Ewoks knew well the planning of the Imperial buildings. It was an Ewok who told the rebels that there is a spare exit – and it’s no simple task for a naïve savage; to make the connection between two very distant structures.

OH JOY, more assumptions. Naive savages the Ewoks may be, they create large structures that are interconnected over distance themselves. Note the boardwalks in the sky, those connect their structures over distance. A tunnel is not that hard to understand. Also the board walks would have taken quite a while for non metal using society to build, what with their perfectly squared and smoothed wooden boards, another reason to not belief "fact" Assumption 6

Fact 8


Ewoks knew how to use military tech. On the level of “press here and pull here” (but you can train an acceptable soldier with that mentality). An Ewok managed to start a speeder. Ewoks knew how to use guns – later, during combat, there as an Ewok shown with a Stormtrooper’s rifle, and held it the proper way. Since no one will throw away his weapon in favor of an object he can’t use, and which is lousy even as a club, the Ewok knew what it was and where to press.

Moreover – when a couple of Ewoks got into an AT-ST’s cabin – they immediately made the connection between controlling a speeder and said AT-ST, and started pulling the levers.

Neither of these things matters much. THe baster is never shown to be fired and the Ewoks couldn't control either the speeder or the walker. As for no one throwing away better weapons, this is true even if the person doesn't know how to use it so long as they understand that it is a better weapon.

The battle itself.

Fact 9.


The Ewok army was gathered long before the meeting with the Rebels, and came to the bunker without them knowing, and before Wicket ran away (leaving the “golden god”, by the way), when they saw the stormtroopers chasing the Rebels into the bunker. Otherwise, you can’t explain the army appearing near the bunker in such short order. Getting to the village, gathering the people, getting back… takes quite awhile.

Actually we don't know how long it takes. Perhaps the entire tribe was gathered awaiting the rebels triumphant return alongside their golden god. A religious congregation can be easily motivated to moving rapidly.

Fact 10, actually the last one, which is demonstrated throughout the battle.


Ewoks already had, before they met the Rebels, a prepared defense line near the bunker. And it was built very intelligently – close in, the most primitive, easily disguisable, further in – more and more serious, up to and including the two logs on the ropes. It should also be noted that the calculations concerning this tech were not one minute work – adjusting a catapult fire, striking an AT-ST with two logs simultaneously – those are things that require experience.

True enough that the traps are going to have taken time to build, but his analysis stating that the goal was to besiege the imperial garrison is incorrect. The simpler conclusion is that the traps form a ring of defenses around their village. Any siege that the Ewoks could have implemented with the traps shown would have been instantly made irrelevant to the fucking AT-AT's that the garrison had as part of their arsenal. Defense against a light raid or scouts is far more probable. Of more relevance is the predominance of rope in the traps, because rope is impossible for a hunting gathering society to make in large quantities. It takes agriculture and large amounts of people a lot of time to make rope. So just another reason for Ass-pull #6 to be wrong.

Part 3. Conclusions from the factsassumptions.

fixed

1.Pre-battle preparation.


Ewoks didn’t "just" decide, or agree, to fight the Imperials – the decision was made long before they met the Rebels. I don’t know what the Imperials did to anger them, but judging from the impudence they showed in the other episodes – they likely did.

The facts show that a well organized intelligence was working against the enemy – the spies gathered info about the construction, about how the enemy handles his tech, the data collected was analyzed, and the conclusions were delivered to the rank and file of the tribes.

This is backwards, it was not the ewoks choice to fight them, but the imperials choice to treat them like vermin. Also allot of unfounded assumptions as to intelligence are made, despite it complete failure to prove that the ewoks did any of this.

The construction of defense lines began, most likely, soon after the bunker was built. In any event, this construction and the mobilization of forces was virtually complete by the time the Ewoks and the Rebels met – most likely, the day of the Ewok attack was not far, and the unexpected meeting didn’t throw off the plans significantly.

Yes the ewoks probably built the defenses not long after the bunker was built (so they could defend their home) but not to do anything to it. They had fucking nothing that they could do to it. They empire could have just closed the door and there was nothing they nor even the rebels could have done about it.

2. The battle itself.

In case the Rebels happen to have a superweapon capable of wiping the main building off the face of Endor, they were brought to the primary complex. When it turned out they can’t level it – the Ewoks used the Rebels as initially planned; a distraction.

The main Ewok forces have overnight taken positions in the forest around the bunker, a large enough camouflaged unit was near the bunker, and with the Rebel team, they sent the scouts, whose mission was: to lead the Rebels to the target, if needed, to distract the Imperials, and most importantly, when the Empire will take the bait – to tell the attack force “go”.

The attack force’s mission was – to strike a surprise attack at the Imperials, thus relieving the Rebels and allowing them to enter the fight, and then – to retreat without a major battle, to lead the enemy after them.

This part was successfully – and that was when the Imperials lost. Because, as was mentioned – a well built defense line awaited the enemy in the forest. As a result – the Imperial forces had to fight under conditions forced upon them, on territory which the enemy knew like the palm of his paw, and where the advantage of firearms is minimal; haw much can you do with a blaster if someone in the forest attacks you from behind? Exactly.

So why were the ewoks supposedly preparing to attack, if their only way of doing harm to the empire is because of the Rebel Strike Team that was supposedly prepared to do the entire fight themselves? Hrm? Oh thats right the only fight the ewoks were preparing for is a defensive one of their homes.

I mean it, why would the ewoks try to attack the Imperial base themselves when there was literally and figuratively nothing that they could fucking do to it.

3. The main conclusion

The Ewoks weren't as savage as they wanted to appear

True, they were some form of agricultural stone or early metal age society that spoke a language that is recognizable as coming from the rest of the galaxy. Whether or not they originated on endor is irrelevant compared to the agricultural technology they demonstrated being beyond the imagination of this wanker.

Summing up:

The Ewok victory during the Endor battle was the natural outcome.

HAHAHAHAHAHAH, wrong. Once again there is nothing, even in the mind of this wanker that the Ewoks actually could have done to the Imperial menace. He can't even prove how advanced the ewoks were, because his basic presumption that they were nothing but hunter gatherers limits his whole understanding of the situation in the first place.

I forgot another fact, that the village contained children/babies. This is another reason to believe that the camp was just an innocent village, rather than some sort of military fort. Not the best evidence of course, but still he white washed over it in any case.

Agent Sorchus wrote:One wrong fact. It was noted by the executor and darth vader specifically. One must remember that Vader wanted to have Luke join him in over throwing the Emperor. A forgotten faucet of the situation is that Luke is captured by "scouts", but brought to the landing pad in an AT-AT. Does it make sense for heavy armor to be acting as prison transport or in a command role for the scouting elements? The second possibility has been ignored.

Well, in our last thread on the AT-AT we speculated that they might work as mobile command posts. If the Ewoks are on the warpath, foot and speeder patrols are potentially vulnerable, and even AT-STs can be killed. But an AT-AT would be completely immune to anything the Ewoks could do to it (except, possibly, for digging truly gargantuan pit traps); they might be used for that simply because there's nothing better to do with them.

And they never showed a 'religious' fear to tech, just from Luke pulling out his supernatural powers on them. Oh whats that supernatural powers from a member of a religious order being treated with religious fear? Say it ain't so!

That's kind of the point. The Ewoks seem passably familiar with technology (such as blasters and speeders), enough to recognize them as weapons and even use them to a very limited extent. They have at least some idea of what these things are capable of. Droids that spit lightning are not considered to be all that awe-inspiring, either.

Only when confronted by "magic" that they cannot understand (C-3PO levitating), as opposed to magic that they are familiar with (blasters) do they react with religious awe.

OH JOY, more assumptions. Naive savages the Ewoks may be, they create large structures that are interconnected over distance themselves. Note the boardwalks in the sky, those connect their structures over distance. A tunnel is not that hard to understand.

For the arboreal Ewoks it might be a little trickier, but you still have a point. The question is: why do the Ewoks assume a connection? Presumably they haven't physically investigated the buildings. It seems likely to me that they watched the tunnel being dug somehow, or have been keeping the buildings under observation long enough to know that sometimes things go into one building and out the other.

At the very least, the Ewoks immediately around the bunker seem to have been observing the place for some time.

Neither of these things matters much. THe baster is never shown to be fired and the Ewoks couldn't control either the speeder or the walker. As for no one throwing away better weapons, this is true even if the person doesn't know how to use it so long as they understand that it is a better weapon.

Could you provide examples of this? I don't disagree, but I'm not confident myself.

True enough that the traps are going to have taken time to build, but his analysis stating that the goal was to besiege the imperial garrison is incorrect. The simpler conclusion is that the traps form a ring of defenses around their village. Any siege that the Ewoks could have implemented with the traps shown would have been instantly made irrelevant to the fucking AT-AT's that the garrison had as part of their arsenal. Defense against a light raid or scouts is far more probable. Of more relevance is the predominance of rope in the traps, because rope is impossible for a hunting gathering society to make in large quantities. It takes agriculture and large amounts of people a lot of time to make rope. So just another reason for Ass-pull #6 to be wrong.

Yes the ewoks probably built the defenses not long after the bunker was built (so they could defend their home) but not to do anything to it. They had fucking nothing that they could do to it. They empire could have just closed the door and there was nothing they nor even the rebels could have done about it.

You do realize that it is routine for primitive armies to besiege unattackable strongholds, hoping for a lucky break?

So why were the ewoks supposedly preparing to attack, if their only way of doing harm to the empire is because of the Rebel Strike Team that was supposedly prepared to do the entire fight themselves? Hrm? Oh thats right the only fight the ewoks were preparing for is a defensive one of their homes.

Was their home so close to the bunker that they could easily lure the stormtrooper counterattack into it?

I mean it, why would the ewoks try to attack the Imperial base themselves when there was literally and figuratively nothing that they could fucking do to it.

They didn't. They posted sentries, prepared defenses in case of a major Imperial sally, and waited for a break.

Simon_Jester wrote:Was their home so close to the bunker that they could easily lure the stormtrooper counterattack into it?

It was within walking/marching distance. Remember, the rebel team didn't have any vehicles and yet managed to get between the village and the bunker while on a time sensitive mission.

The Alliance – as always, those are merry fellows. To land a ground team, and then to leap into the battle with their entire fleet, without any signal… no, I don’t buy it. And if the shuttle had disappeared/would have been destroyed/captured? The time of the fleet exiting hyper was known, couldn’t they just send a signal “Everything’s OK”? Well, at least the Alliance can be understood – too much at stake, hence the hurry with all entailing.

Plus any transmissions could have been detected, which is why modern Special forces often act on timing rather than calling.

Or they send a second long burst. In SW - a nanosecond. In any event, this transmission would have given them away no more than the explosion in the bunker.

Fact 1.


So, the Ewoks meet the rebels. At this moment, we already have some doubts about their naïve and fanatical faith in the “Golden god”. Suck a mob couldn’t have simply come and hide without anyone noticing, meaning they were already there when said god fell into the trap, and saw it perfectly.

What does this mean?

They say Threepio's non divine behavior.

Fact 3


A bit later, in the village, when the “god” explicitly demanded to release his friends – the Ewok said “shove off”.

I can understand a pagan treating gods like that. But it doesn’t match the image of a god who can send you to fight a totally unnecessary war. Also – later said worshiped god is allowed to leave, without any escort, and is also treated with extreme familiarity all the remaining time…

This is entirely wild ass grabbing. Threepio had made not of the fact that he didn't fully understand them, as such when he worded his request he might have made a faux pas and used a non divine tense. Something as simple as that explains the scene with out inventing extra factors. Occams Razor.

Where is such a divine tense mentioned (Occam Razor)? In the Bible, for example, the best known divine order seems to begin with "please" - not very divine, yet it's followed unquestioningly.

Another not very obvious detail. A savage hunting tribe cannot have such a village. Because it takes a long time to build, requires maintenance, and feeding its population becomes harder and harder, since the game around it will be eaten or scared away. Judging from the number of Ewoks participating in the battle – it will happen very fast. So, as a permanent settlement, that’s nonsense. But as a temporary military camp – a very good base.

Again ass pulling. Since when are the Ewoks hunters only? I do believe that we see drying plants hanging about in the Chief's hut, just like one would see in any permanent encampment in the middle ages of Earth. So if my recollections are right this is just another ass pull.

[/quote]

They aren't hunters only. Ever heard of hunters - gatherers? But you still need meat from time to time, and more importantly, hunters - gatherers don't live together in large numbers, and tend to keep mobile. And if they are agricultural - where are the fields around the settlement? No, that's not a permanent living place.

Simon_Jester wrote:Well, in our last thread on the AT-AT we speculated that they might work as mobile command posts. If the Ewoks are on the warpath, foot and speeder patrols are potentially vulnerable, and even AT-STs can be killed. But an AT-AT would be completely immune to anything the Ewoks could do to it (except, possibly, for digging truly gargantuan pit traps); they might be used for that simply because there's nothing better to do with them.

And they never showed a 'religious' fear to tech, just from Luke pulling out his supernatural powers on them. Oh whats that supernatural powers from a member of a religious order being treated with religious fear? Say it ain't so!

That's kind of the point. The Ewoks seem passably familiar with technology (such as blasters and speeders), enough to recognize them as weapons and even use them to a very limited extent. They have at least some idea of what these things are capable of. Droids that spit lightning are not considered to be all that awe-inspiring, either.

Only when confronted by "magic" that they cannot understand (C-3PO levitating), as opposed to magic that they are familiar with (blasters) do they react with religious awe.

Fact 5

Ewoks later show absolutely normal attitude toward tech – no religious fear from neither a lightning throwing R2D2, nor stormtroopers, nor speeders, nor an AT-ST.

The part I was referring to is bolded. Later implies that they have ever shown religious awe. And once again I do not think that they are as primitive as the person who wrote the essay. Threepio actually gives us all the evidence that we need to know that rather than being entirely native they have some knowledge of the rest of the Galaxy. THEY SPEAK A GALACTIC LANGAUGE! Even though it is distinct there is every reason to believe that it contains artifacts that give them their understanding of Technology, such as it is.

OH JOY, more assumptions. Naive savages the Ewoks may be, they create large structures that are interconnected over distance themselves. Note the boardwalks in the sky, those connect their structures over distance. A tunnel is not that hard to understand.

For the arboreal Ewoks it might be a little trickier, but you still have a point. The question is: why do the Ewoks assume a connection? Presumably they haven't physically investigated the buildings. It seems likely to me that they watched the tunnel being dug somehow, or have been keeping the buildings under observation long enough to know that sometimes things go into one building and out the other.

At the very least, the Ewoks immediately around the bunker seem to have been observing the place for some time.

Yes. They must have observed it for quite a while if it was built on the doorstep of their Village. IF I wanted I can point to the Ewok TV series to demonstrate that it was a village that had been there for quite a while. I wouldn't forgive myself if I did though.

Neither of these things matters much. The blaster is never shown to be fired and the Ewoks couldn't control either the speeder or the walker. As for no one throwing away better weapons, this is true even if the person doesn't know how to use it so long as they understand that it is a better weapon.

Could you provide examples of this? I don't disagree, but I'm not confident myself.

Not directly. However the Native Americans used paints to imitate the Stars and Stripes because they thought it to have some spiritual effect making US soldiers tougher. This is analogous to taking a blaster and showing that you can hold it properly, despite not knowing why or how it works.

True enough that the traps are going to have taken time to build, but his analysis stating that the goal was to besiege the imperial garrison is incorrect. The simpler conclusion is that the traps form a ring of defenses around their village. Any siege that the Ewoks could have implemented with the traps shown would have been instantly made irrelevant to the fucking AT-AT's that the garrison had as part of their arsenal. Defense against a light raid or scouts is far more probable. Of more relevance is the predominance of rope in the traps, because rope is impossible for a hunting gathering society to make in large quantities. It takes agriculture and large amounts of people a lot of time to make rope. So just another reason for Ass-pull #6 to be wrong.

Yes the ewoks probably built the defenses not long after the bunker was built (so they could defend their home) but not to do anything to it. They had fucking nothing that they could do to it. They empire could have just closed the door and there was nothing they nor even the rebels could have done about it.

You do realize that it is routine for primitive armies to besiege unattackable strongholds, hoping for a lucky break?

Really? Do you have any proof? The first reason I can think of for this to not be true is the inability for a significantly primitive society to retain the resources to remain in the field. Also even though we see a rather large number of Ewoks in the battle does not mean that they think they have enough. There is a whole fucking Legion of the Emperors 'best' troops after all. Ewoks must be able to do the math that shows that they are out numbered by a couple orders of magnitude, but still.

The ewoks can't do anything to the ATAT, their numbers are small compared to the numbers of imperial troops they intend to fight before the rebels show up, all despite not having one single pathetic thing they could have actually done to the base or the fleet themselves.

But no, lets wank to the warrior Ewok. It is more pathetic than wanking to Klingons.

So why were the ewoks supposedly preparing to attack, if their only way of doing harm to the empire is because of the Rebel Strike Team that was supposedly prepared to do the entire fight themselves? Hrm? Oh thats right the only fight the ewoks were preparing for is a defensive one of their homes.

Was their home so close to the bunker that they could easily lure the stormtrooper counterattack into it?

Really we do not know. Of course it can't have been to far out of the way. Our only guess as to the time taken is that Luke can find a way to be captured in a very short period of time, since it was implied that Vader picks him up latter in the evening and this is after Luke was questioned by the base commander thoroughly enough for the base commander to be confident in handing him over to Vader.

I mean it, why would the ewoks try to attack the Imperial base themselves when there was literally and figuratively nothing that they could fucking do to it.

They didn't. They posted sentries, prepared defenses in case of a major Imperial sally, and waited for a break.[/quote]Close, but their is still no reason to believe that it was a military encampment, and even with the agriculture that I propose for them they still cannot afford to send away that many workers. All the real evidence says that is was a village doing their utmost to defend themselves, not a bunch of tribes uniting to out the oppressor.

I challenge you to find any evidence for it being a multi-tribal millitary encampment. There is only one chief, the encampment is built to last rather than anything a hunter gatherer would ever build, the encampment has been built up in such a way that does not describe a hasty military venture, and there are women and children taking refuge in it.
Admit it the Ewoks are the ones that are being besieged rather than a military adventure that even a primitive could see having no hopes to succeed.

Agent Sorchus wrote:Yes. They must have observed it for quite a while if it was built on the doorstep of their Village. IF I wanted I can point to the Ewok TV series to demonstrate that it was a village that had been there for quite a while. I wouldn't forgive myself if I did though.

Hey, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there's a village there. Though I submit that there's no reason an Ewok tribal army couldn't base itself in and around an existing village, assuming such a force could assemble at all.

Not directly. However the Native Americans used paints to imitate the Stars and Stripes because they thought it to have some spiritual effect making US soldiers tougher. This is analogous to taking a blaster and showing that you can hold it properly, despite not knowing why or how it works.

Not really. Because if I pick up a weapon I can't use, it definitely weakens me in combat even if it grants me the mystical whatever the enemy has. Whereas painting myself funny colors doesn't actually make me less effective as a warrior in any way.

You do realize that it is routine for primitive armies to besiege unattackable strongholds, hoping for a lucky break?

Really? Do you have any proof?

Medieval sieges. A lot of which lasted a very long time, simply because the defender could hold out for months or years while the attacker tried to figure out a way to crack the walls. Sure, they generally found a way to breach the defenses or gave up in the end, but we don't know how long the Ewoks have been there. Maybe they're hoping to come up with some equivalent of a Trojan Horse strategy.

What seems plausible to me is that the Ewok force is mostly dispersed through the woods (so that they can forage, at least for a while), with only a relatively minimal guard force actually "besieging" the Imperials. Not that it's much of a siege line, of course.

The first reason I can think of for this to not be true is the inability for a significantly primitive society to retain the resources to remain in the field. Also even though we see a rather large number of Ewoks in the battle does not mean that they think they have enough. There is a whole fucking Legion of the Emperors 'best' troops after all. Ewoks must be able to do the math that shows that they are out numbered by a couple orders of magnitude, but still.

I'd bet quite well on their not expecting to be able to beat the Imperials in a straight fight. That's why they didn't already attack: they knew they couldn't keep enough force near the bunker to actually overwhelm it (are there even that many Ewok warriors on the planet?), but they wanted to maintain a decent fighting force (by Ewok standards) in case any exploitable event happened.

But the presence of the traps, now that I think about it, strongly suggests that there was some degree of preparation.

Close, but their is still no reason to believe that it was a military encampment, and even with the agriculture that I propose for them they still cannot afford to send away that many workers. All the real evidence says that is was a village doing their utmost to defend themselves, not a bunch of tribes uniting to out the oppressor.

I challenge you to find any evidence for it being a multi-tribal millitary encampment. There is only one chief, the encampment is built to last rather than anything a hunter gatherer would ever build, the encampment has been built up in such a way that does not describe a hasty military venture, and there are women and children taking refuge in it.
Admit it the Ewoks are the ones that are being besieged rather than a military adventure that even a primitive could see having no hopes to succeed.

Since none of us speak Ewok, it's difficult to interpret just what we were looking at. We see one well-dressed head honcho; that could mean that he's the only person of any importance, yeah.

I admit that there's no strong reason to prefer the "this is a multitribal force" explanation. But I think there are some aspects of the situation that are a bit troubling if the whole Ewok operation is the work of one tribe. Unless it's a damned big tribe.

Omeganian wrote:

The Alliance – as always, those are merry fellows. To land a ground team, and then to leap into the battle with their entire fleet, without any signal… no, I don’t buy it. And if the shuttle had disappeared/would have been destroyed/captured? The time of the fleet exiting hyper was known, couldn’t they just send a signal “Everything’s OK”? Well, at least the Alliance can be understood – too much at stake, hence the hurry with all entailing.

Plus any transmissions could have been detected, which is why modern Special forces often act on timing rather than calling.

Or they send a second long burst. In SW - a nanosecond. In any event, this transmission would have given them away no more than the explosion in the bunker.

You are forgetting that the rebellion fleet has to take transit time into account. This is why a timed attack is better than a transmission attack, otherwise after the bunker blows up real good the emperor has plenty of time attempt to escape before the rebels can arrive. And your supposed ELF burst transmitter has to be both affordable and man portable while remaining undetected from the Imperial command ship and communication ship, while also able to punch through any jamming that the empire uses. That is to big a leap and to complicated and contains to many elements of unknowns that can go wrong for the rebels. Like what happens if the transmitter is damaged in the fight or in the forest land trek?

God Star Wars tech can do lots, but some times the simplest plan has the best payouts. A timed attack has so many more advantages than relying upon a trick. You get a certain number of days to get in position that is generous enough to have excess and then you begin your attack in such a way that there is no lead time for the Emperor to escape prior to the Fleet Arriving.

Fact 1.


So, the Ewoks meet the rebels. At this moment, we already have some doubts about their naïve and fanatical faith in the “Golden god”. Suck a mob couldn’t have simply come and hide without anyone noticing, meaning they were already there when said god fell into the trap, and saw it perfectly.

What does this mean?

They say Threepio's non divine behavior.

You mean to say that they saw behavior that does not fit with your concept of a god that can do no wrong, right? But just because 3P0 was in the trap it was not his fault the trap was sprung. Plus societies that are as primitive as the Norse never thought that the gods could do no wrong, this is primarily a concept that is believed by those in cultures of Monotheists (Hinduism has a similar thought that the God Head can do no wrong despite being Polytheist, but the God Head is a Defacto Monotheist deity). Are the ewoks like Monotheists? Or are they like most primitive cultures and are Polytheist? Cause I would bet on them not believing that their gods are infallible.

Fact 3

A bit later, in the village, when the “god” explicitly demanded to release his friends – the Ewok said “shove off”.

I can understand a pagan treating gods like that. But it doesn’t match the image of a god who can send you to fight a totally unnecessary war. Also – later said worshiped god is allowed to leave, without any escort, and is also treated with extreme familiarity all the remaining time…

This is entirely wild ass grabbing. Threepio had made not of the fact that he didn't fully understand them, as such when he worded his request he might have made a faux pas and used a non divine tense. Something as simple as that explains the scene with out inventing extra factors. Occams Razor.

Where is such a divine tense mentioned (Occam Razor)? In the Bible, for example, the best known divine order seems to begin with "please" - not very divine, yet it's followed unquestioningly.

Damn are you a dumb one. But I did not word that exactly correctly either. So to reword this:
1. 3P0 says he has a hard time understanding them
2 With such a difficulty it is quite likely that he failed to use the correct terminology to express his request.
I.E. 3P0 uses mortal terms when the tribe is expecting him to use divine terms.
Conclussion: 3P0 didn't tell the tribe to release them the correct way.
This is so simple in comparison to the ewoks faking the entirety of their belief in 3P0's divinity for no real gain that Occams Razor says: fuck off you stupid cunt and leave your half baked ideas behind.

You are this stupid because you tried to use a source from our language to disprove that another language does not have something that ours does not. There is no equivalency and no way to make such an equivalence with out invoking a massive amount of stupid. Luckily Stupid is in great abundance, or else we wouldn't have wankers.

Another not very obvious detail. A savage hunting tribe cannot have such a village. Because it takes a long time to build, requires maintenance, and feeding its population becomes harder and harder, since the game around it will be eaten or scared away. Judging from the number of Ewoks participating in the battle – it will happen very fast. So, as a permanent settlement, that’s nonsense. But as a temporary military camp – a very good base.

Again ass pulling. Since when are the Ewoks hunters only? I do believe that we see drying plants hanging about in the Chief's hut, just like one would see in any permanent encampment in the middle ages of Earth. So if my recollections are right this is just another ass pull.

They aren't hunters only. Ever heard of hunters - gatherers? But you still need meat from time to time, and more importantly, hunters - gatherers don't live together in large numbers, and tend to keep mobile. And if they are agricultural - where are the fields around the settlement? No, that's not a permanent living place.[/quote] So suddenly gathering is able to create the absolutely colossal amount of rope that the Ewoks used in their construction and in their traps? Fuck no man. Also It would be hilarious to see Hunter Gatherers try to gather an army, that is even as significant as was seen. A hunter Gatherer has no time to be warrior unless his home is being attacked by another. You can't even have the minds or time necessary to build the catapults, let alone afford the time training someone is such a specialist skill. Hunter Gatherers do not have specialists. Only Agricultural societies can afford them.

As for your false dilemma of never seeing feilds, you do realize that not all crops grow in straight lines in open fields Right? Because there are plenty of plants that are grown in swamps and other less identifiable locations. So what we don't see crops, do we actually see much of the ewok village or what they have under it? So if we never see the ground under the village do we presume that it isn't there? Fuck no you idiot. Just because we the audience do not see any of it does not mean that it is there. What we do see is a society that requires the roles that only agriculture allows.

If you want to accept my challenge prove that despite all our archeology a hunter gatherer society could establish roles and technology that didn't appear until well past the development of agriculture and the use of metals. I will be waiting.

Simon_Jester wrote:

Agent Sorchus wrote:Yes. They must have observed it for quite a while if it was built on the doorstep of their Village. IF I wanted I can point to the Ewok TV series to demonstrate that it was a village that had been there for quite a while. I wouldn't forgive myself if I did though.

Hey, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there's a village there. Though I submit that there's no reason an Ewok tribal army couldn't base itself in and around an existing village, assuming such a force could assemble at all.

And the problem is that a hunter gatherer would have neither a village or the ability to field any real numbers over even enough time to build the encampment we see. The Encampment actually tells us two things, that they spent a lot of time making it nice by squaring off and smoothing the wood, and that they were planing on making use of it for large periods of time.

Not directly. However the Native Americans used paints to imitate the Stars and Stripes because they thought it to have some spiritual effect making US soldiers tougher. This is analogous to taking a blaster and showing that you can hold it properly, despite not knowing why or how it works.

Not really. Because if I pick up a weapon I can't use, it definitely weakens me in combat even if it grants me the mystical whatever the enemy has. Whereas painting myself funny colors doesn't actually make me less effective as a warrior in any way.

I know it was not a great example, but all that we have in the favor of ewoks using blasters is a single shot of an Ewok holding one. We do not how long he had been holding it nor whither or not he intended to use it or could use it. What we do know is that no other ewok grabs a blaster and imitates him. Why would ewoks who all knew what blasters were and the approximation of how to use them not go for them? Likely because they actually didn't know and were simply imitating and hoping for the best.

You do realize that it is routine for primitive armies to besiege unattackable strongholds, hoping for a lucky break?

Really? Do you have any proof?

Medieval sieges. A lot of which lasted a very long time, simply because the defender could hold out for months or years while the attacker tried to figure out a way to crack the walls. Sure, they generally found a way to breach the defenses or gave up in the end, but we don't know how long the Ewoks have been there. Maybe they're hoping to come up with some equivalent of a Trojan Horse strategy.

False Equivalency. You are misusing the word primitive. Sure a medieval army is primitive in our eyes, but the fortress is comparable to the force that is attacking it. Thus it is not a case of primitive army attacks an actual unattainable fortress.

What seems plausible to me is that the Ewok force is mostly dispersed through the woods (so that they can forage, at least for a while), with only a relatively minimal guard force actually "besieging" the Imperials. Not that it's much of a siege line, of course.

This fails only due to the final dancing with ewoks scene where we actually see the true size of the encampment. It's absolutely huge even for a medieval village. If they were so spread out they wouldn't have needed such a large ability to gather for long periods of time.

The first reason I can think of for this to not be true is the inability for a significantly primitive society to retain the resources to remain in the field. Also even though we see a rather large number of Ewoks in the battle does not mean that they think they have enough. There is a whole fucking Legion of the Emperors 'best' troops after all. Ewoks must be able to do the math that shows that they are out numbered by a couple orders of magnitude, but still.

I'd bet quite well on their not expecting to be able to beat the Imperials in a straight fight. That's why they didn't already attack: they knew they couldn't keep enough force near the bunker to actually overwhelm it (are there even that many Ewok warriors on the planet?), but they wanted to maintain a decent fighting force (by Ewok standards) in case any exploitable event happened.

But the presence of the traps, now that I think about it, strongly suggests that there was some degree of preparation.

You are still not seeing that the way the traps were laid out is a classic defense is depth strategy. The heaviest traps are all far away from the bunker itself and include actual siege machines that could not be moved in closer. The catapult even in medieval times was built in a stationary position and was never moved. IF the Ewoks actually wanted to use these expensive and specialized machines to attack the bunker they would have built it closer. Thus they never intended to attack, only defend their home.

Close, but their is still no reason to believe that it was a military encampment, and even with the agriculture that I propose for them they still cannot afford to send away that many workers. All the real evidence says that is was a village doing their utmost to defend themselves, not a bunch of tribes uniting to out the oppressor.

I challenge you to find any evidence for it being a multi-tribal millitary encampment. There is only one chief, the encampment is built to last rather than anything a hunter gatherer would ever build, the encampment has been built up in such a way that does not describe a hasty military venture, and there are women and children taking refuge in it.
Admit it the Ewoks are the ones that are being besieged rather than a military adventure that even a primitive could see having no hopes to succeed.

Since none of us speak Ewok, it's difficult to interpret just what we were looking at. We see one well-dressed head honcho; that could mean that he's the only person of any importance, yeah.

I admit that there's no strong reason to prefer the "this is a multitribal force" explanation. But I think there are some aspects of the situation that are a bit troubling if the whole Ewok operation is the work of one tribe. Unless it's a damned big tribe.

Well if there were any other ewoks from different tribes they were not many and not representative for their own tribe. We also get a good feeling for the size of the ewok encampment in the very final dancing ewok scene. The bondfires extend deep into the forest and it appears that they are each an established fire pit. So ya it looks to me like a damn big tribe

Agent Sorchus wrote:Well if there were any other ewoks from different tribes they were not many and not representative for their own tribe. We also get a good feeling for the size of the ewok encampment in the very final dancing ewok scene. The bondfires extend deep into the forest and it appears that they are each an established fire pit. So ya it looks to me like a damn big tribe

To add to this, agricultural advances almost always mean one thing: massive population growth. So it is not at all surprising that the ewok village would be so huge if they are already into growing their own food and not just hunter-gatherers.

For what much or little they are worth, the Ewok Movies and Cartoons did show that Ewoks had an agricultural society, raised livestock, and properly raised crops in properly penned areas, so the Ewoks are decidedly beyond the simple hunter-gatherer stage.
Given the complexity of their log traps, I might say that despite their simplistic appearance and almost sole reliance on wood as a construction material, Ewoks have a firm familiarity with engineering and physics.

They also have Earth equivalency animals on Endor's Moon.

Agent Sorchus wrote:

Where is such a divine tense mentioned (Occam Razor)? In the Bible, for example, the best known divine order seems to begin with "please" - not very divine, yet it's followed unquestioningly.

Damn are you a dumb one. But I did not word that exactly correctly either. So to reword this:
1. 3P0 says he has a hard time understanding them
2 With such a difficulty it is quite likely that he failed to use the correct terminology to express his request.
I.E. 3P0 uses mortal terms when the tribe is expecting him to use divine terms.
Conclussion: 3P0 didn't tell the tribe to release them the correct way.
This is so simple in comparison to the ewoks faking the entirety of their belief in 3P0's divinity for no real gain that Occams Razor says: fuck off you stupid cunt and leave your half baked ideas behind.

You are this stupid because you tried to use a source from our language to disprove that another language does not have something that ours does not. There is no equivalency and no way to make such an equivalence with out invoking a massive amount of stupid. Luckily Stupid is in great abundance, or else we wouldn't have wankers.

So, where's your proof that any language has these "divine terms"? It appears to me as though you are making an equally bold assertion that the Ewok language does contain such a divine tense.

Agent Sorchus wrote:

They aren't hunters only. Ever heard of hunters - gatherers? But you still need meat from time to time, and more importantly, hunters - gatherers don't live together in large numbers, and tend to keep mobile. And if they are agricultural - where are the fields around the settlement? No, that's not a permanent living place.

So suddenly gathering is able to create the absolutely colossal amount of rope that the Ewoks used in their construction and in their traps? Fuck no man. Also It would be hilarious to see Hunter Gatherers try to gather an army, that is even as significant as was seen. A hunter Gatherer has no time to be warrior unless his home is being attacked by another. You can't even have the minds or time necessary to build the catapults, let alone afford the time training someone is such a specialist skill. Hunter Gatherers do not have specialists. Only Agricultural societies can afford them.

As for your false dilemma of never seeing feilds, you do realize that not all crops grow in straight lines in open fields Right? Because there are plenty of plants that are grown in swamps and other less identifiable locations. So what we don't see crops, do we actually see much of the ewok village or what they have under it? So if we never see the ground under the village do we presume that it isn't there? Fuck no you idiot. Just because we the audience do not see any of it does not mean that it is there. What we do see is a society that requires the roles that only agriculture allows.

Several things about this. The Ewok village could very easily be a permanent military installation. It could be a safe haven for a collection of tribes or clans. Or even just for one tribe that has spread out into various villages. It was not unheard of for Native American tribes to build forts to protect the women and children in times of war. I can give you one example from history when Narragansett Indians built a fort in southern Rhode Island and were attacked and massacred by colonial troops in 1675.
Additionally, the Ewoks could very easily be farmers, hunters, and gatherers. Again, using East Coast Native American tribes as an example, many coastal tribes had settled into a seasonal pattern: hunting in the winter and fall, farming in the spring and summer, fishing whenever large numbers of fish migrate up and down the waterways, and gathering whenever they can.

As for whether or not the Ewoks could be besieging the Imperial garrison... they very well could be. Most often when native warriors engaged European soldiers during colonial wars the natives would attempt to lure the Europeans out of their fortifications and into terrain more favorable to themselves. That was how they would besiege a strongly fortified garrison. Additionally, they could also simply attempt to overwhelm the defenders through sheer numbers.

Agent Sorchus wrote:I forgot another fact, that the village contained children/babies. This is another reason to believe that the camp was just an innocent village, rather than some sort of military fort. Not the best evidence of course, but still he white washed over it in any case.

Ancient/ "primitive" armies would have a variety of camp followers, including women and probably children. I do believe in some cultures men going to war brought their entire families along? (I seem to have heard a story of African Auxiliaries fighting with the allies in the desert during WWII doing just that)

A good example is Roman frontier fronts. In Northern Britain, the Roman forts often had a civilian settlement just outside the walls, where the common law wives of the soldiers inside the forts used to live. These settlements also provided other services, such as restaurants, pubs, whore houses, anything you'd expect a normal town to have. Sometimes, they would even have their own defensive earthworks.

When Roman soldiers were finally allowed to get married, wives and children were even allowed to live inside forts.

So the fact that there are women and children inside the settlement, does not necessarily disprove the fact that it is a military settlement.

BUT

While I find it an intriguing idea, and it would be cool and I think more "realistic" if it were true, somehow I don't think the Ewoks had it all planned out beforehand. If they were really trying to besiege the Imperial posts, I'd expect the imperials would have counter-attacked quite ferociously. And the fact that the scouts got through, and were wandering around the forest quite freely I think goes a way in disproving that the ewoks were fighting the imperials already.

It really does come off as just a spontaneous uprising, the way it is shown in the movies.

recon20011 wrote:So, where's your proof that any language has these "divine terms"? It appears to me as though you are making an equally bold assertion that the Ewok language does contain such a divine tense.

No you retard, the specific claim of a possible divine tense is actually an explanation of the general conclusion that C3P0 does not understand the language enough to make his requests properly. It is so much simpler of a claim than the claim that the Ewoks are faking the entire fucking thing for no good reason. Again Occam's razor tells us that it is retarded to believe that the ewoks do something complicated like that for no reason when a simpler reason is given and is as obvious as 3P0 telling us it is so.

Several things about this. The Ewok village could very easily be a permanent military installation. It could be a safe haven for a collection of tribes or clans. Or even just for one tribe that has spread out into various villages. It was not unheard of for Native American tribes to build forts to protect the women and children in times of war. I can give you one example from history when Narragansett Indians built a fort in southern Rhode Island and were attacked and massacred by colonial troops in 1675.

Fine, but as a fort it is too spread about to easily defend. Also there still is no evidence of more than one tribe or clan involved in the village. And the obvious counter is the Ewoks TV series and the movies that tell us that it is supposed to be a village. Even if it could be a fort, based on native American activity, you still cannot prove that it was and that they were gathering for war against the Empire.

Additionally, the Ewoks could very easily be farmers, hunters, and gatherers. Again, using East Coast Native American tribes as an example, many coastal tribes had settled into a seasonal pattern: hunting in the winter and fall, farming in the spring and summer, fishing whenever large numbers of fish migrate up and down the waterways, and gathering whenever they can.

Yes this is similar to what I see based on the movie, with the notable exceptions that you could not create that amount of rope without increasing the amount of farming.

I'm going to split the next quote into claim a and claim b

claim [b][i]A[/i][/b] wrote:As for whether or not the Ewoks could be besieging the Imperial garrison... they very well could be. Most often when native warriors engaged European soldiers during colonial wars the natives would attempt to lure the Europeans out of their fortifications and into terrain more favorable to themselves. That was how they would besiege a strongly fortified garrison.

claim [b][i]B[/i][/b] wrote:Additionally, they could also simply attempt to overwhelm the defenders through sheer numbers.

Claim A is countered by the fact that the imperial scouts were out beyond the Ewok village. These scouts are the perfect target for the strategy of claim A, and yet they were operating easily and hadn't run afoul of the ewoks traps. If the damn traps were intended to attrition small numbers of the Imperials regardless of where they are operating, just like a siege should. Rather the traps only appeared to happen as we approach the Ewok village, just like proper defenses.

Claim B is so fucking stupid. There is a mother fucking LEGION of troops on the Base. There might not be that many Ewoks in a hundred Mile radius of the base. The Ewoks have no fucking way of overwhelming a full on Legion of Stormtroopers manning defenses and bringing Heavy armor in the form of fucking ATAT's. Then they have to be able to open the bunker in the first place. Even the fucking rebels, who were specifically prepared for the battle, had no way besides deceit to open the bunker. So fuck off and grow a brain.

Seydlitz_k wrote:

Agent Sorchus wrote:I forgot another fact, that the village contained children/babies. This is another reason to believe that the camp was just an innocent village, rather than some sort of military fort. Not the best evidence of course, but still he white washed over it in any case.

Ancient/ "primitive" armies would have a variety of camp followers, including women and probably children. I do believe in some cultures men going to war brought their entire families along? (I seem to have heard a story of African Auxiliaries fighting with the allies in the desert during WWII doing just that)

A good example is Roman frontier fronts. In Northern Britain, the Roman forts often had a civilian settlement just outside the walls, where the common law wives of the soldiers inside the forts used to live. These settlements also provided other services, such as restaurants, pubs, whore houses, anything you'd expect a normal town to have. Sometimes, they would even have their own defensive earthworks.

When Roman soldiers were finally allowed to get married, wives and children were even allowed to live inside forts.

So the fact that there are women and children inside the settlement, does not necessarily disprove the fact that it is a military settlement.

BUT

While I find it an intriguing idea, and it would be cool and I think more "realistic" if it were true, somehow I don't think the Ewoks had it all planned out beforehand. If they were really trying to besiege the Imperial posts, I'd expect the imperials would have counter-attacked quite ferociously. And the fact that the scouts got through, and were wandering around the forest quite freely I think goes a way in disproving that the ewoks were fighting the imperials already.

It really does come off as just a spontaneous uprising, the way it is shown in the movies.

Yes the children do not prove anything, yet they are further evidence that supports the primary evidence and makes the claim that it is only a village stronger.
Really the entire thing is just as portrayed in the movie, a spontaneous attack that forces the imperials to give chase through prepared defenses and ambushes.

P.S: I do not have more time to spend on this until at least Wednesday and possibly until Friday. So if I don't get back to anymore responses until then it aint because I gave up.

Agent Sorchus wrote:Yes the children do not prove anything, yet they are further evidence that supports the primary evidence and makes the claim that it is only a village stronger.
Really the entire thing is just as portrayed in the movie, a spontaneous attack that forces the imperials to give chase through prepared defenses and ambushes.

P.S: I do not have more time to spend on this until at least Wednesday and possibly until Friday. So if I don't get back to anymore responses until then it aint because I gave up.

Fair enough. I thought you were saying that the presence of women and children meant that there was no possibility that it was anything more than a village.

Simon_Jester wrote:This is... pretty good. It gives me the image of an Ewok tribal confederation uniting under some heroic leader (the Ewok equivalent of Geronimo or Shaka?), preparing an elaborate siege line around the Imperial bases, and trying to figure out a way to crack their defenses.

That may also explain why the Imperials don't maintain a broad perimeter: any small outposts they place get mobbed by cannibal teddy bears and usually don't come back. It's only by using the mobility advantage of speeder bikes that they can avoid this, and even then it's only because the Ewoks have learned that trying to ambush the speeder patrols is more trouble than it's worth, because the Imperials will reply to that in considerable force.

And yes, that's contra good infantry doctrine, and there are ways to solve it. It still relies on the Imperial officers screwing up... but we already knew they were screwups anyway.

Eh, all it would take is a few turbolaser blasts from orbit to extablish a 100km wide no man's land or cratered nothingness around the garrison if they actually percieved of or encountered a threat as you described.

Its pretty clear that the Empire simply didn't percieve a threat.

Agent Sorchus wrote:

<kersnip>Fact 3

A bit later, in the village, when the “god” explicitly demanded to release his friends – the Ewok said “shove off”.

I can understand a pagan treating gods like that. But it doesn’t match the image of a god who can send you to fight a totally unnecessary war. Also – later said worshiped god is allowed to leave, without any escort, and is also treated with extreme familiarity all the remaining time…

Fact 4

I would like you to pay attention – No one intended to eat Luke and the others. Because the quarry is slaughtered and gutted before cooking, and the savages are the ones to know it best.

What we saw, I would define as a show for the Rebels. Why did the Ewoks need it – that’s another matter… I would say that they wanted to see how they’ll behave. If I wanted to make a very wild assumption – I would say that some mildly Force skilled Ewok shaman used the confusion for a surface probe of the Rebel brains – they had to know who these aliens are, so similar to those white tins.

This is entirely wild ass grabbing. Threepio had made not of the fact that he didn't fully understand them, as such when he worded his request he might have made a faux pas and used a non divine tense. Something as simple as that explains the scene with out inventing extra factors. Occams Razor.

A god can order you any way he wants.

If my War God was telling me not to cook his friends, twice, and the latter one in a quite clear belligerent tone, hell, yeah, I'd release the captives no matter what tense he uses. Therefore, they still ignored a direct order from thier supposed god (twice).

Also, if Threepio was not using divine tense when he should have, why do the Ewoks not think, "The Golden One isn't using the proper Divine Mood as he should. Maybe he's a fake!" A god of the Ewoks should know the culture of the Ewoks they have authority over as well as the Ewoks themselves, and should know the divine mood if it exists, and when they should use it.

Finally, there is the not insignificant fact that you do not cook game by spitting the life animal over a fire! Thus, the Ewoks did not intend to cook Han or any other Rebel, because if they had, they would have started by properly slaughtering them before they were put anywhere near the fire. Therefore, the entire incident was some sort of theater. Occam's Razor.

Agent Sorchus wrote:

Fact 6

Another not very obvious detail. A savage hunting tribe cannot have such a village. Because it takes a long time to build, requires maintenance, and feeding its population becomes harder and harder, since the game around it will be eaten or scared away. Judging from the number of Ewoks participating in the battle – it will happen very fast. So, as a permanent settlement, that’s nonsense. But as a temporary military camp – a very good base.

Again ass pulling. Since when are the Ewoks hunters only? I do believe that we see drying plants hanging about in the Chief's hut, just like one would see in any permanent encampment in the middle ages of Earth. So if my recollections are right this is just another ass pull.

It doesn't matter if the Ewoks were hunters only, they were hunting. They baited a trap with fresh kill, the one they caught the Rebels in. The points stands.

Agent Sorchus wrote:

Pre-battle events:

Fact 7

Ewoks knew well the planning of the Imperial buildings. It was an Ewok who told the rebels that there is a spare exit – and it’s no simple task for a naïve savage; to make the connection between two very distant structures.

OH JOY, more assumptions. Naive savages the Ewoks may be, they create large structures that are interconnected over distance themselves. Note the boardwalks in the sky, those connect their structures over distance. A tunnel is not that hard to understand. Also the board walks would have taken quite a while for non metal using society to build, what with their perfectly squared and smoothed wooden boards, another reason to not belief "fact"

A villiage is different from a base. The Ewoks recognized the entire base as an integrated structure with a common purpose, rather than an interconnected series of dwellings and shops. Large scale bases is not something a primitive culture would have any conception of.

Agent Sorchus wrote:

Fact 8

Ewoks knew how to use military tech. On the level of “press here and pull here” (but you can train an acceptable soldier with that mentality). An Ewok managed to start a speeder. Ewoks knew how to use guns – later, during combat, there as an Ewok shown with a Stormtrooper’s rifle, and held it the proper way. Since no one will throw away his weapon in favor of an object he can’t use, and which is lousy even as a club, the Ewok knew what it was and where to press.

Moreover – when a couple of Ewoks got into an AT-ST’s cabin – they immediately made the connection between controlling a speeder and said AT-ST, and started pulling the levers.

Neither of these things matters much. THe baster is never shown to be fired and the Ewoks couldn't control either the speeder or the walker. As for no one throwing away better weapons, this is true even if the person doesn't know how to use it so long as they understand that it is a better weapon.

The Ewok was gripping the blaster in the right place, in the right manner, to be able to fire the weapon if he wanted to. That indicates a rudimentary familiarity with the weapon, like one end is the end you point at your enemies. This is not knowledge that comes instantly to people.

Furthermore, the Ewoks knew that to work the tin folk's machinery, you need to push levers and articulate controls. This is not obvious, especially if all your experience with animate things is animals.

Either way, it indicates a leap of imagination that indicates that the Ewoks are damn geniuses, or they have been carefully surveying the Imperial troops for quite a long time.

Agent Sorchus wrote:

Fact 9.

The Ewok army was gathered long before the meeting with the Rebels, and came to the bunker without them knowing, and before Wicket ran away (leaving the “golden god”, by the way), when they saw the stormtroopers chasing the Rebels into the bunker. Otherwise, you can’t explain the army appearing near the bunker in such short order. Getting to the village, gathering the people, getting back… takes quite awhile.

Actually we don't know how long it takes.

It takes a while to move through a dense forest without the benefit of roads or mechanized transport. If the villiage/base was that close, the Imperials would have known about it already, and would've known the source of the teddy bears that were bearing down on them.

Agent Sorchus wrote:Perhaps the entire tribe was gathered awaiting the rebels triumphant return alongside their golden god. A religious congregation can be easily motivated to moving rapidly.

A "religious congragation" that seemed to be armed to the teeth. To be coherent with the facts, "religious congragation" and "army" would have to be synonyms in Ewok.

Agent Sorchus wrote:

Fact 10, actually the last one, which is demonstrated throughout the battle.

Ewoks already had, before they met the Rebels, a prepared defense line near the bunker. And it was built very intelligently – close in, the most primitive, easily disguisable, further in – more and more serious, up to and including the two logs on the ropes. It should also be noted that the calculations concerning this tech were not one minute work – adjusting a catapult fire, striking an AT-ST with two logs simultaneously – those are things that require experience.

True enough that the traps are going to have taken time to build, but his analysis stating that the goal was to besiege the imperial garrison is incorrect. The simpler conclusion is that the traps form a ring of defenses around their village. Any siege that the Ewoks could have implemented with the traps shown would have been instantly made irrelevant to the fucking AT-AT's that the garrison had as part of their arsenal. Defense against a light raid or scouts is far more probable. Of more relevance is the predominance of rope in the traps, because rope is impossible for a hunting gathering society to make in large quantities. It takes agriculture and large amounts of people a lot of time to make rope. So just another reason for Ass-pull #6 to be wrong.

Fact #6 only requires the Ewoks to be hunting, which they clearly do. It does not in any way require them to support themselves completely through hunting.

Also, agriculture requires a large amount of clear, fertile, tilled land, which you are not going to find in a dense forest. To all appearances, the forests around the villiage is undisturbed, which means that if they are doing agriculture, they are doing it very far away from the villiage, which farming villiages do not do. In other words, the villiage has outside support.

Wyrm wrote:A god can order you any way he wants.

If my War God was telling me not to cook his friends, twice, and the latter one in a quite clear belligerent tone, hell, yeah, I'd release the captives no matter what tense he uses. Therefore, they still ignored a direct order from thier supposed god (twice).

Only because your religion prepares you to automatically accept divine proclamation. If on the other hand your god is Coyote the great Liar you would question every one of his claims. Or if your tradition taught that gods should be automatically respected, but not followed for fear of angering a different patron deity. All of this is as likely as not. Even in Greek Myth gods do not get everything they ask for, many times Zues is forced to resort to trickery to get his way with maidens. Zues, who is as powerful and respected a god as can be, has to resort to divine tricks to get it on.

Also, if Threepio was not using divine tense when he should have, why do the Ewoks not think, "The Golden One isn't using the proper Divine Mood as he should. Maybe he's a fake!" A god of the Ewoks should know the culture of the Ewoks they have authority over as well as the Ewoks themselves, and should know the divine mood if it exists, and when they should use it.

Who knows. Oh wait not even 3P0:

THREEPIO
Hello, I think... I could be mistaken. They're using a very primitive
dialect. But I do believe they think I am some sort of god.

Perhaps the god they believe 3P0 is speaks in riddles or is usually incomprehensible. Honestly 3P0 being unable to communicate to them means jack shit.

Finally, there is the not insignificant fact that you do not cook game by spitting the life animal over a fire! Thus, the Ewoks did not intend to cook Han or any other Rebel, because if they had, they would have started by properly slaughtering them before they were put anywhere near the fire. Therefore, the entire incident was some sort of theater. Occam's Razor.

Or their gods take sustenance from live sacrifice rather than actually siting done and feeding like we expect. Hell ritual sacrifice is such a common aspect of primitive religion that we should be expecting it, and it is usually coached in terms of feeding the gods anyway. So now some sort of Theatre presumes that the ewoks know just what sort of thing to do as a show. It also presumes that the Ewoks have a way out for those that they are putting a show on for, and that presumes that what happens is expected. To many presumptions makes this fail Occams Razor more so than a Live sacrifice to their god.

Agent Sorchus wrote:

Fact 6

Another not very obvious detail. A savage hunting tribe cannot have such a village. Because it takes a long time to build, requires maintenance, and feeding its population becomes harder and harder, since the game around it will be eaten or scared away. Judging from the number of Ewoks participating in the battle – it will happen very fast. So, as a permanent settlement, that’s nonsense. But as a temporary military camp – a very good base.

Again ass pulling. Since when are the Ewoks hunters only? I do believe that we see drying plants hanging about in the Chief's hut, just like one would see in any permanent encampment in the middle ages of Earth. So if my recollections are right this is just another ass pull.

It doesn't matter if the Ewoks were hunters only, they were hunting. They baited a trap with fresh kill, the one they caught the Rebels in. The points stands.

You totally fucking misunderstand the point: yes they hunt, no they are not restricted to hunting alone. Rather the point is that they actually have a village and are tied to a specific local, unlike hunter gatherers are. That is his claim and what you do not understand. Hunting alone doesn't prove that.

Plus your baited trap is baited with meat, despite the fact that predators are so damn much rarer than prey. The only societies that trap predators preferentially are those that have livestock and those are tied somewhat to a local. So once again fuck off.

A villiage is different from a base. The Ewoks recognized the entire base as an integrated structure with a common purpose, rather than an interconnected series of dwellings and shops. Large scale bases is not something a primitive culture would have any conception of.

Aqueducts and irrigation require even larger construction than that base. The Norte Chico civilization in early South American history was incredibly interconnected and yet showed almost none of the Ewoks feats of engineering. Besides, the Ewoks need little more than understanding of how an ant travels into one ant hole and if it becomes blocked comes out of another to understand how tunnels work. Plus you require that the Ewoks actually know that it is a way in rather than something similar to what 3P0 described them attacking. Every thing here requires that assumption, and that assumption doesn't necessarily work, namely because Wicket only tells them about the back entrance after Han points to the front entrance. Wicket would have realized that they were looking at entrances only after that and suddenly your presumption falls apart. Hell it falls apart because of the timing, instead of telling the rebels about the back entrance before they head out they tell them after looking on to the base. If the fucking Ewoks actually had a plan they would have given the Rebels the information before they left the village.

The Ewok was gripping the blaster in the right place, in the right manner, to be able to fire the weapon if he wanted to. That indicates a rudimentary familiarity with the weapon, like one end is the end you point at your enemies. This is not knowledge that comes instantly to people.

A kid can hold a fucking gun the correct way with no understanding as to why, so long as they have viewed someone holding it once before. They still don't know how to fire it or how to use it effectively anyway, and yet they still will try to hold it.

Furthermore, the Ewoks knew that to work the tin folk's machinery, you need to push levers and articulate controls. This is not obvious, especially if all your experience with animate things is animals.

Either way, it indicates a leap of imagination that indicates that the Ewoks are damn geniuses, or they have been carefully surveying the Imperial troops for quite a long time.

Or they only pulled on what Chewbacca pointed at. Honestly a dog can understand when someone points at something that they can do something to it. And fucking pushing levers is exactly their technology, remember the lever controlled catapult? Oh snap, that is something that is not an animal that they have experience with, isn't it? Of course it is you fucking moron. Between Chewies pointing out what to pull and the fact that they actually understand how levers work, and that levers can cause additional motion. It is easy to see why why Ewoks were able to get the walker into motion before Chewie takes over. And if they actually understand the technology why would Chewie need to take over? Because you are a fucking moron.

It takes a while to move through a dense forest without the benefit of roads or mechanized transport. If the villiage/base was that close, the Imperials would have known about it already, and would've known the source of the teddy bears that were bearing down on them.

But since it is not but a bunch of silly primitives laying defenses around their own village there would be no cause for alarm. Ewoks actually killing of your patrols would be and is required for this theory to make sense. Who said that the empire didn't know where the Ewoks came from? Not I. And the stormtroopers didn't even call for reinforcement when the ewoks showed up, which showes exactly how unimportant the ewoks were thought to be.

Agent Sorchus wrote:Perhaps the entire tribe was gathered awaiting the rebels triumphant return alongside their golden god. A religious congregation can be easily motivated to moving rapidly.

A "religious congragation" that seemed to be armed to the teeth. To be coherent with the facts, "religious congragation" and "army" would have to be synonyms in Ewok.

Little villages that are often armed to the teeth if they are in societies that have tribal wars, who says that a village can't be quite heavily armed? Certainly not the Small Amazon tribes that are almost constantly at war.

I'll be back for more of my response latter.

Wyrm wrote:Fact #6 only requires the Ewoks to be hunting, which they clearly do. It does not in any way require them to support themselves completely through hunting.

Also, agriculture requires a large amount of clear, fertile, tilled land, which you are not going to find in a dense forest. To all appearances, the forests around the villiage is undisturbed, which means that if they are doing agriculture, they are doing it very far away from the villiage, which farming villiages do not do. In other words, the villiage has outside support.

You do not understand his claim in fact 6. He specifically claims that what we see is not a village, because a hunting society cannot sustain such a large population. A HUNTING ONLY SOCIETY, that is his claim, and yet we see no real hunting. And no argiculture does not require tilled land alone, the Native (north) Americans made do in the east coast with swamps and rather dense forests without having to till the fuck out of the land. Modern Agriculture requires the sort of investment that you are thinking of. Utilizing different techniques causes different land use. Hell Natives of Indonesia developed agriculture in Dense rain forest and still do not clear obvious tracks of land for food production.

One more thing that I would like the proponents of this Theory to defend. WHY the fuck should natives that do not have large permanent structures (as is claimed in "Fact" #6) ever develop the mentality of siege warfare? Because they can't have anything to siege so they would never even think of it as a valid strategy, and would also never develop special siege weapons (like the catapult, which they showed much aptitude for in hitting a moving target). He making the very extraordinary claim that a bunch of hunter gatherers (as is best according to his claim) develop warfare that is totally unnecessary for their cultural needs.