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Woah, some rather stange news: The Sith Lord in the Deceived Reveal Trailer is named Darth Malgus and the Twilek is his wife. Link

Apparently he's turning out to be Bioware's example of a 'light-side' Sith.


Moderator's Note: This thread was split from the Old Republic discussion thread in G&C. It took a direction away from gaming and into discussion of the mythology itself, and so is here. -- Lagmonster

General Schatten wrote:Woah, some rather stange news: The Sith Lord in the Deceived Reveal Trailer is named Darth Malgus and the Twilek is his wife. Link

Apparently he's turning out to be Bioware's example of a 'light-side' Sith.

Damn. This was unexpected. Now this looks like what I wanted to see in the first place: a genuinely fresh and different take on a Sith Lord.

"Light-side Sith" is an oxymoron, and that in itself tells me this game has little respect for canon.

The Romulan Republic wrote:"Light-side Sith" is an oxymoron, and that in itself tells me this game has little respect for canon.

I think it's well established after The Force Unleashed that Star Wars videogame canon has been dragged out of it's car and beaten to death with a rubber hose.

The Romulan Republic wrote:"Light-side Sith" is an oxymoron, and that in itself tells me this game has little respect for canon.

It's why it's in quotation, there are apparently individual Sith who are trying to change the organization from the inside whilst maintaining peace and individual Jedi who are manipulating elements of the Republic for war. I don't see what's so canon breaking about it, there are Christians who believe in Calvinism despite the almost blatant socialistic leanings of Jesus' teaching, why can't there be Sith who don't follow the creed to the letter?

The Romulan Republic wrote:"Light-side Sith" is an oxymoron, and that in itself tells me this game has little respect for canon.

Wait, what? There have been dark Jedi since forever, but a light side Sith is "disrespectful of canon?" Why is it okay to see Jedi fall to the dark side while still identifying as Jedi but a Sith who sees the light * but doesn't stop identifying as a Sith (or defect from the order) is unthinkable?

* pun not intended.

Eleas wrote:

General Schatten wrote:Woah, some rather stange news: The Sith Lord in the Deceived Reveal Trailer is named Darth Malgus and the Twilek is his wife. Link

Apparently he's turning out to be Bioware's example of a 'light-side' Sith.

Damn. This was unexpected. Now this looks like what I wanted to see in the first place: a genuinely fresh and different take on a Sith Lord.

Yes, I too was looking forward to more EU bullshit that goes completely against what the movies tells us.

Next on TOR: Jedi that use the Dark Side!!!

Oh what a refreshing take on the Jedi.

Formless wrote:

The Romulan Republic wrote:"Light-side Sith" is an oxymoron, and that in itself tells me this game has little respect for canon.

Wait, what? There have been dark Jedi since forever, but a light side Sith is "disrespectful of canon?" Why is it okay to see Jedi fall to the dark side while still identifying as Jedi but a Sith who sees the light * but doesn't stop identifying as a Sith (or defect from his fellow Sith) is unthinkable?

* pun not intended.

"Dark Jedi" are no longer part of the Jedi order having, you know, fallen to the dark side which is the antithesis of the Jedi.
So why would a Sith that's embraced the light side remain a Sith? Do you think Anakin Skywalker remained a Sith Lord in RotJ after his act of redemption?

Formless wrote:

The Romulan Republic wrote:"Light-side Sith" is an oxymoron, and that in itself tells me this game has little respect for canon.

Wait, what? There have been dark Jedi since forever, but a light side Sith is "disrespectful of canon?" Why is it okay to see Jedi fall to the dark side while still identifying as Jedi but a Sith who sees the light * but doesn't stop identifying as a Sith (or defect from his fellow Sith) is unthinkable?

* pun not intended.

Uh yeah... Dark Jedi are EU garbage too?

Let me check....

Yup.

As for retaining the word 'Jedi' to describe them, it is more to show what they once were, not that they are Jedi that use the Dark Side. They are no longer Jedi.

Oh, wait, unless the EU vomits up more redemption garbage.

General Schatten wrote:

The Romulan Republic wrote:"Light-side Sith" is an oxymoron, and that in itself tells me this game has little respect for canon.

It's why it's in quotation, there are apparently individual Sith who are trying to change the organization from the inside whilst maintaining peace and individual Jedi who are manipulating elements of the Republic for war.

I see.

Well, that could be a reasonable take on the Sith if done properly: while the Dark Side corrupts and is fueled by anger and hate, I could see a clever Sith arguing that its better to maintain the truce and hold on to what they have rather than risk it all in further warfare, for example.

As for Jedi being corrupt bastards, that's nothing new. The Prequel Trilogy and Clone Wars establish they use cloned slave canon fodder and child soldiers (Ashoka).

Regarding Dark Jedi, I think Gramzamber's got it right. There have been fallen Jedi, sure, but generally they're booted out of the Order and become rogues.

As to why there cannot be a Light Side Sith, well, the Sith doctrine is about embracing the Dark Side and using it to gain power.

Funny thing is the good/evil bar in KOTOR that's been mocked over the years is more loyal to the movie canon than this.
Sure, the schoolyard bully/perfect saint tactics needed to go one side or the other were absurd but the principle was sound.
The Jedi are good and the Sith are evil. That's just how it is. EU attempts to turn an old time heroic serial style series of movies into grey grimdark moral ambiguity (and failing miserably) nonewithstanding.

The Romulan Republic wrote:As for Jedi being corrupt bastards, that's nothing new. The Prequel Trilogy and Clone Wars establish they use cloned slave canon fodder and child soldiers (Ashoka).

Well the clones would be used by the Republic whether the Jedi helped or not, and Jedi "child soldiers" are worth several normal soldiers in combat ability.

Havok wrote: Uh yeah... Dark Jedi are EU garbage too?

Let me check....

Yup.

As for retaining the word 'Jedi' to describe them, it is more to show what they once were, not that they are Jedi that use the Dark Side. They are no longer Jedi.

Oh, wait, unless the EU vomits up more redemption garbage.

Well, I'll have to disagree with you on this.

"Dark Jedi" typically aren't actually Jedi. They're fallen rogue Force users who used to be Jedi. The EU has not, to my knowledge, ever shown use of the Dark Side sanctioned by the Order. Of course, you're welcome to prove me wrong if you can.

As for "redemption garbage," I'm not sure what you mean here. The redemption theme goes back to Vader in Return of the Jedi, which is about as high in the canon you can get and is arguably the entire point of the two trilogies. There is nothing saying you can't be redeemed from the Dark Side, and a great deal saying you can.

The dark side would be quite boring to play if it was all "EVIL! EVIL! EVIL!". I wouldn't exactly call Darth Malgus or any strong practitioner of the dark side to be "light-side" or even good. But it demonstrates that the Sith are not as one dimensional as most people think, which is great! Because otherwise it would be boring as hell. Didn't some Sith Lord say "Good is a point of view"?

Eleas wrote:Damn. This was unexpected. Now this looks like what I wanted to see in the first place: a genuinely fresh and different take on a Sith Lord.

Like I said earlier, the Deceived trailer is very much a marketing tool. I'd be honestly surprised if Bioware churns out stories that are boring in the end product.

Well, that could be a reasonable take on the Sith if done properly: while the Dark Side corrupts and is fueled by anger and hate, I could see a clever Sith arguing that its better to maintain the truce and hold on to what they have rather than risk it all in further warfare, for example.

I think a better example is that not all the Sith would be the world ending level of power that we all know and love and those individuals would need to find alternative ways to insure their survival, power and further their pursuit into the mysteries of the force.

So they can still be evil bastards, but just to the other side. They understand the importance of putting on a good face so that it is easier to get the brain washed incompetant masses to lay down their lives for you. Or they haven't been completely corrupted by the dark side and haven't forgotten the reason for their origional pursuit of power. Sometimes it takes a few cracked eggs to crush the crime syndicates/slavers/extragalactic threats.

Of course, it looks like they are trying to make the Galactic Empire but with a bit more black and white. I'm not sure where they are going to get the white for the Sith from though.

Gramzamber wrote:

Formless wrote:

The Romulan Republic wrote:"Light-side Sith" is an oxymoron, and that in itself tells me this game has little respect for canon.

Wait, what? There have been dark Jedi since forever, but a light side Sith is "disrespectful of canon?" Why is it okay to see Jedi fall to the dark side while still identifying as Jedi but a Sith who sees the light * but doesn't stop identifying as a Sith (or defect from his fellow Sith) is unthinkable?

* pun not intended.

"Dark Jedi" are no longer part of the Jedi order having, you know, fallen to the dark side which is the antithesis of the Jedi.
So why would a Sith that's embraced the light side remain a Sith? Do you think Anakin Skywalker remained a Sith in RotJ after his act of redemption?

Vader still clearly self identified as a Jedi in ANH. Dark Jedi were not part of the order because the order kicked them out when they found them, but there is nothing to indicate that the Sith do the same or even police themselves the same way, especially if the guy happens to be a successful military leader. The Sith and the Jedi are as much cultural constructs as philosophies, it could be that this Darth Malgus character disagreed with the politics and morals of his peers, but stayed because he liked the culture and still thought there was something the Sith empire had to offer the Galaxy. Why is it so unthinkable that there could be political or philosophical differences among the Sith order, just like there was among the Jedi?

Also, where does it say the Sith have to be puppy cremating bastards who only ever use the Dark Side? Their code never explicitly endorses the dark side, instead it talks about personal empowerment and freeing yourself from oppression; are these bad traits? Are these traits that only a dark side user can have? Seriously?

Havok wrote:Yes, I too was looking forward to more EU bullshit that goes completely against what the movies tells us.

Next on TOR: Jedi that use the Dark Side!!!

Oh what a refreshing take on the Jedi.

Yeah, I know. What I meant was, at least with this, it looks like they're striving for some kind of thematic effect, and that's... laudable, I suppose, all things considered. It won't excuse them fucking with the established LS/DS duality, mind you, but at least it's an honest attempt.

The Romulan Republic wrote:As for "redemption garbage," I'm not sure what you mean here.

I think what Havok may refer to is the attempt by writers to, in effect, "redeem" the Dark Side, and make it "just another tool" which can be used for selfless purposes, etc.

Pint0 Xtreme wrote:Like I said earlier, the Deceived trailer is very much a marketing tool. I'd be honestly surprised if Bioware churns out stories that are boring in the end product.

Well, let's just say I'm no longer willing to be quite so certain in my dismissal of the game.

Pint0 Xtreme wrote:The dark side would be quite boring to play if it was all "EVIL! EVIL! EVIL!". I wouldn't exactly call Darth Malgus or any strong practitioner of the dark side to be "light-side" or even good. But it demonstrates that the Sith are not as one dimensional as most people think, which is great!

And the only way they can stop being one-dimensional is to stop devoting themselves to the one aspect that defines their existance?

Because otherwise it would be boring as hell. Didn't some Sith Lord say "Good is a point of view"?

Yes, the same guy who shortly afterwards yells "UNLIMITED POWER!", zaps a guy out of a building to his death while laughing maniacly and then gives an order to kill children.
Point of view alright.

Just so everyone knows, this is the Sith code:

Peace is a lie; there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
—Darth Bane, Dark Lord of the Sith

Formless wrote:Vader still clearly self identified as a Jedi in ANH.

The Jedi order was gone. He could identify himself as whatever the hell he wanted.
Besides which, he never refers to himself as a Jedi Knight or member of the Jedi order. The things he and others talk about in ANH could apply equally to a Jedi, Sith, or just an independant Force user.

Also, where does it say the Sith have to be puppy cremating bastards who only ever use the Dark Side? Their code never explicitly endorses the dark side, instead it talks about personal empowerment and freeing yourself from oppression; are these bad traits? Are these traits that only a dark side user can have? Seriously?

Using the Force for personal gain and power is part of the dark side, and is part of the Sith way.

Using the Force for personal gain and power is part of the dark side, and is part of the Sith way.

Yes... according to the Jedi. The Jedi, who took it upon themselves to oppress the Sith for a thousand years. Just because they are depicted as the heroes doesn't mean every word that comes from their mouths is gospel when it comes to the Force.

Eleas wrote:Yeah, I know. What I meant was, at least with this, it looks like they're striving for some kind of thematic effect, and that's... laudable, I suppose, all things considered. It won't excuse them fucking with the established LS/DS duality, mind you, but at least it's an honest attempt.

It's not like they didn't already try. Malak might have been a raving psychopath, but Revan was actually trying to accomplish something: preparing the galaxy to fight whatever the hell was sitting outside the galaxy that he was so terrified of.

Losonti Tokash wrote: It's not like they didn't already try. Malak might have been a raving psychopath, but Revan was actually trying to accomplish something: preparing the galaxy to fight whatever the hell was sitting outside the galaxy that he was so terrified of.

True. I was referring to the team responsible for TOR, not Bioware as a whole. I was quite pleased with KotOR in that regard and found KotOR 2, though highly uneven due to various production issues, to be even more daring.

Formless wrote:

Using the Force for personal gain and power is part of the dark side, and is part of the Sith way.

Yes... according to the Jedi. The Jedi, who took it upon themselves to oppress the Sith for a thousand years. Just because they are depicted as the heroes doesn't mean every word that comes from their mouths is gospel when it comes to the Force.

Yes, according to the Jedi. And the fact that every single Sith to come along has been an evil despot.
And that includes Revan. Good intentions don't diminish their crimes.

Eleas wrote:

Losonti Tokash wrote: It's not like they didn't already try. Malak might have been a raving psychopath, but Revan was actually trying to accomplish something: preparing the galaxy to fight whatever the hell was sitting outside the galaxy that he was so terrified of.

True. I was referring to the team responsible for TOR, not Bioware as a whole. I was quite pleased with KotOR in that regard and found KotOR 2, though highly uneven due to various production issues, to be even more daring.

Yeah. Kreia was probably one of the most interesting characters I've seen in Star Wars. Up until the end of the game, of course, but the whole thing went to shit in the last few hours anyway so that doesn't mean too much.

And I didn't say Revan was a good guy (see: Telos), but he sure as hell wasn't just going "rarghhhh powerrrrr!!1"