StarDestroyer.Net BBS

So I was thinking to myself, after looking through the Star Wars shelf at my local bookstore, that the New Republic has not been a good thing for the galaxy, especially when compared with the Empire.

Hear me out. In the few decades of Imperial rule, there were atrocities and high levels of unpleasantness, but mostly directed at people who were doing something wrong. Events such as Grand Moff Tarkin's landing a shuttle on protesters were massive overreactions, yes, horrible and unethical decisions, yes, but not entirely incomprehensible ones. The general understanding, as I see it, was that loyalty and obedience to the Imperial central government would be rewarded with protection and stability. Contrast this with the New Republic, which has a major crisis at least once a year, and roundly failed to do its duty during the Vong War. It seems to me that large portions of the galaxy, especially in the Core, would actually prefer an Imperial-style, if not benevolent at least not actively incompetent dictatorship. Thoughts?

Possibly, but there are lots of others who would actively oppose it. I'm thinking of all the aliens who were enslaved and oppressed by the Empire, and all the worlds involved in the initial Rebel Alliance. Which means that any attempt to create such a state would likely set off another round of civil war.

Certainly a good point. I was just thinking that after three rounds of civil war in as many decades, a devastating extragalactic invasion, and brushfire conflcits every six months, the average being-on-the-street might look back on the Empire through rose-colored glasses.

For that matter, what's the percentage of humans to aliens on a galactic scale? Do we have any way of finding out?

I'm confused by the title of the thread, considering there's been a Second Galactic Empire in-canon since 2006.

Maybe from an EU point of view, but in the movie doesn't Palpatine proclaim it the First Galactic Empire? I could certainly be wrong, and if so I beg your forgiveness, but I thought that's the way it was.

Master_Baerne wrote:Maybe from an EU point of view, but in the movie doesn't Palpatine proclaim it the First Galactic Empire? I could certainly be wrong, and if so I beg your forgiveness, but I thought that's the way it was.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Kr ... tic_Empire

Proclaimed a bit after that.

Oh.


Well, that's egg on my face. I've never read that series, so I didn't think of it.

Srelex wrote:http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Kr ... tic_Empire

Proclaimed a bit after that.

Actually, that's not really it either. The Second Galactic Empire came into being when Jag Fel became Emperor sometime after Legacy of the Force. Krayt is just a usurper to that throne.

As for the meat of Master_Baerne's post, there always existed significant sympathy for the "good old days" of the Empire during the New Republic and GFFA. In New Rebellion, Leia practically losses it when unrepentent Imperials are being elected to the Senate in large numbers, and a GFFA Intelligence officer tells Wedge to his face that the Empire would have, IIRC, "kicked the Vong's teeth in" in Betrayal.

Hey, the German Empire drove its people into ruin to pursue ridiculous atavistic policies of conquest, imperialism, and racial chauvenism. Subsequently much of the population was agitated into blaming Jews and Leftists and many sectors of the population (though not the People as a whole) provided sufficient political and electoral support to result in a far-right quasi-reactionary seizure of power. And it was even worse the second time around.

The Legacy of the Force series seems to be building up to the re-emergence of the Empire. We have Moff Leczersen making his own bid for the throne, but we know from the Legacy comics that Jag will be Emperor eventually. The big question for many fans is where this leaves Jaina. Will she resist this? Or will she stick with Jag and (as seems to be the consensus) become his Empress? This in turn leads to new questions. Will the Imperial Knights be Jaina's baby (figuratively speaking)? How will the Skywalkers and Solos react to all this?

All in all, I'm foreseeing yet another war. As The Romulan Republic pointed out, there's enough ill-feeling towards the very idea of another Empire for someone to do something stupid. This might actually have the effect of hardening opinion in favour of strong galactic government, especially considering the chaos and bloodshed of the past few decades. What's more, the Fel Dynasty has shown itself to be accepting of nonhumans (Daala's legacy from Darksaber), so the whole humans-oppressing-aliens line won't hold water the way it did with Palpatine.

Master_Baerne wrote:Hear me out. In the few decades of Imperial rule, there were atrocities and high levels of unpleasantness, but mostly directed at people who were doing something wrong.

Yes, I am sure the entire population of Alderaan was doing something wrong.

Events such as Grand Moff Tarkin's landing a shuttle on protesters were massive overreactions, yes, horrible and unethical decisions, yes, but not entirely incomprehensible ones.

So if Barrack Obama ordered Air Force One to land on say, the RNC, you would not find that incomprehensible?

The general understanding, as I see it, was that loyalty and obedience to the Imperial central government would be rewarded with protection and stability.

You do realize that that is just a glorified protection racket correct? I mean, Tony Soprano could run it.

Contrast this with the New Republic, which has a major crisis at least once a year, and roundly failed to do its duty during the Vong War.

You know, I normally HATE what I am about to do, but I blame the writers. I find it incomprehensible that in 30 years, the galaxy as a whole, would just forget how to run itself without the Empire. Yes, I am quite aware of the "Empire will collapse without me" mechanism Palpatine supposedly set up and the corruption that was eating the Republic well before he came into power, but as we know, it had been 1000 years since there was a full scale war, so they had to be doing something right.
I think that the writers don't comprehend the sheer scale that the Republic represented and the amount of effort that had to go into maintaining a general peace and functionality for the thousands of member worlds and civilizations for 1000 years.

It seems to me that large portions of the galaxy, especially in the Core, would actually prefer an Imperial-style, if not benevolent at least not actively incompetent dictatorship. Thoughts?

This is the only thing that makes sense, as the wealthy and prosperous are always more comfortable with a dominating government, since it usually effects them negatively the least and leads to more power for them.

Havok wrote:Yes, I am sure the entire population of Alderaan was doing something wrong.

They were, in the same kind of way the entire Empire did something wrong for Tarkin blowing up Alderaan. Treason and all that.

So if Barrack Obama ordered Air Force One to land on say, the RNC, you would not find that incomprehensible?

If you stood on a runway or train track, would you be surprised to get run over?

Edit - hilariously, the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook identifies Tarkin as a mere captain and the vessel as a "Republic warship," meaning it took place under the Old Republic.

You do realize that that is just a glorified protection racket correct?

That's government for you.

You know, I normally HATE what I am about to do, but I blame the writers. I find it incomprehensible that in 30 years, the galaxy as a whole, would just forget how to run itself without the Empire. Yes, I am quite aware of the "Empire will collapse without me" mechanism Palpatine supposedly set up and the corruption that was eating the Republic well before he came into power, but as we know, it had been 1000 years since there was a full scale war, so they had to be doing something right.

Yeah, a millenium without full-scale war. War, not only amongst various neutrals, but even within and between actual member states of the Old Republic was not uncommon. That's why planets like Kuat are building Star Dreadnoughts, or the Trade Federation forces are described as "battle-hardened." The galaxy is certainly not at peace before and during the PT. What the OR "did right" was, pretty much, nothing. The Empire is basically the one "succesful" attempt to impose any degree of centralized authority on the galaxy.

The New Republic was the product of the immediate reaction (or rather overreaction) against the excesses of Imperial rule, and this nostalgia for the Empire in the Legacy era is the product of the backlash against the mind-boggling incompetence, cowardice, and corruption that was the New Republic's handling of the Yuuzhan Vong invasion. When you take 350+ trillion casualties in a war against a cross between Nazis and crusaders whose SOP is to unleash bio-plagues that turn your ecosystem into goo and get their kicks by rearranging your parts... yeah, suddenly that government that did things like, you know, build a military doesn't sound all that bad.

Havok wrote:

Master_Baerne wrote:Hear me out. In the few decades of Imperial rule, there were atrocities and high levels of unpleasantness, but mostly directed at people who were doing something wrong.

Yes, I am sure the entire population of Alderaan was doing something wrong.

Their government was supporting the wrong side, and so they died during a civil war. The people who are not doing some thing wrong die all the time during wars, regardless of whether every one of them is guilty or not. And any way, that was the past. If you were a citizen of the SW Galaxy living during the Vong Invasion, would having a despotic government like Palpatine's that can at least hold its own seem so bad?

Contrast this with the New Republic, which has a major crisis at least once a year, and roundly failed to do its duty during the Vong War.

You know, I normally HATE what I am about to do, but I blame the writers. I find it incomprehensible that in 30 years, the galaxy as a whole, would just forget how to run itself without the Empire.

Managing a stable yet effective government isn't as simple as running a McDonald's restaurant--especially a galactic government. The political machine was well on the verge of collapse before the Empire's advent. The only thing that saved it from its inevitable fall was Palpatine's iron fist....and that was destroyed as well, further compounding the problem. And then when one considers all the wars that they've had in this relatively small period, it gets even worse. There are so many factors that can go wrong.

It's happened enough times in human history to make it believable for me. And of course, the worst crime of the New Republic is that they didn't learn any thing from the Old Republic's fall. Perhaps I'm wrong on this, but it seemed to me like the NR was an exact copy of the OR.... I'm not that surprised that it bit the dust so quickly.

Yes, I am quite aware of the "Empire will collapse without me" mechanism Palpatine supposedly set up and the corruption that was eating the Republic well before he came into power, but as we know, it had been 1000 years since there was a full scale war, so they had to be doing something right.

Some thing that they were doing kept things right for a time, but then it must have gone awry. Whatever the cause, it's rather clear solely from the movies themselves that the Republic is overburdened and doesn't have enough authority in its current state to fix its problems. A major breakdown of trust like that will require much time to heal.

I think that the writers don't comprehend the sheer scale that the Republic represented and the amount of effort that had to go into maintaining a general peace and functionality for the thousands of member worlds and civilizations for 1000 years.

Well...the peace lasted long enough. I'm sure that counts for some of their efforts. But good things can't last forever. That same sheer scale can easily become a catastrophic death knell when it isn't managed correctly and then careens out of control.

Man, I love how no one even considers the fact that what was wrong with the Republic was the fact that the Sith had been corrupting it for... oh 1000 years.

Havok wrote:Man, I love how no one even considers the fact that what was wrong with the Republic was the fact that the Sith had been corrupting it for... oh 1000 years.

I'm sorry, my bullshit detector just went haywire. Do you have a source for that? Or are you just talking out of your ass?

Formless wrote:

Havok wrote:Man, I love how no one even considers the fact that what was wrong with the Republic was the fact that the Sith had been corrupting it for... oh 1000 years.

I'm sorry, my bullshit detector just went haywire. Do you have a source for that? Or are you just talking out of your ass?

I'm sorry, does anyone have a source for the GE fairing any better against the Vong than the NR? Or is everyone just talking out their ass?

Nice dodge. Now, you will either provide evidence for that claim of yours, or you will shut up. Trying to pin onto me an argument I never made isn't going to get you anywhere, because frankly, I have no bones in this fight.

It's not a dodge you dumb fuck. People pontificate on things all the time that there is no evidence for. I guess you don't understand when some one is making a point.
And maybe you should learn to fucking read, since I did not claim anything. But yeah, we have no evidence of the Sith fucking with the internal workings of the Old Republic at all right? Why would we even consider something like that as a possibility. How fucking silly of me.

Havok wrote:It's not a dodge you dumb fuck. People pontificate on things all the time that there is no evidence for. I guess you don't understand when some one is making a point.
And maybe you should learn to fucking read, since I did not claim anything. But yeah, we have no evidence of the Sith fucking with the internal workings of the Old Republic at all right? Why would we even consider something like that as a possibility. How fucking silly of me.

How fucking silly of me to discount arguments that are pure speculation without evidence. I'm sure that works for pundits, trekkies, libertarians, creationists, sophists, solipsists, and so on all the time right?

Oh, wait, you're full of shit. Really, really full of shit:

Havok wrote:Man, I love how no one even considers the fact that what was wrong with the Republic was the fact that the Sith had been corrupting it for... oh 1000 years.

Havok wrote:

Formless wrote:

Havok wrote:Man, I love how no one even considers the fact that what was wrong with the Republic was the fact that the Sith had been corrupting it for... oh 1000 years.

I'm sorry, my bullshit detector just went haywire. Do you have a source for that? Or are you just talking out of your ass?

I'm sorry, does anyone have a source for the GE fairing any better against the Vong than the NR? Or is everyone just talking out their ass?

The Empire doesn't suffer from the same crippling level of indecisiveness which proved so instrumental in killing the NR, and perhaps most importantly the Empire at the height of its power influenced far more territory and maintained a far more efficient military.

The Vong themselves realized it as well:

"This Uncle, Luke Skywalker, is popularly considered to have singlehandedly created the New Republic by defeating an older, much more rational government known as the Empire."
.....
"And I might add, it was fortunate for us that he did; the Empire was vastly more organized, powerful, and potently militaristic. Lacking the internal divisions we have exploited so sucessfully in the New Republic. the Empire would have crushed our people utterly in their first encounter."
-Nom Anor, pg. 34, Traitor

Boeing 757 wrote:The Empire doesn't suffer from the same crippling level of indecisiveness which proved so instrumental in killing the NR, and perhaps most importantly the Empire at the height of its power influenced far more territory and maintained a far more efficient military.

The Vong themselves realized it as well:

"This Uncle, Luke Skywalker, is popularly considered to have singlehandedly created the New Republic by defeating an older, much more rational government known as the Empire."
.....
"And I might add, it was fortunate for us that he did; the Empire was vastly more organized, powerful, and potently militaristic. Lacking the internal divisions we have exploited so sucessfully in the New Republic. the Empire would have crushed our people utterly in their first encounter."
-Nom Anor, pg. 34, Traitor

Not to mention that Palpatine knew of the Vong to an extent and was ready for them and would likely have allowed them a planet or two before utterly crushing them to dust.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Hey, the German Empire drove its people into ruin to pursue ridiculous atavistic policies of conquest, imperialism, and racial chauvenism.

.....you're an idiot who knows nothing about the German Empire, which actually was the most enlightened state of the early 20th century.

Havok wrote:I'm sorry, does anyone have a source for the GE fairing any better against the Vong than the NR? Or is everyone just talking out their ass?

It's cropped up in the sources at least three times that I've seen so far. The first is the quote from Nom Anor already provided, and considering he was knee-deep in bringing down the Empire since at least as far back as Crimson Empire, he's something of an expert. Less authoritative is the assessment made by Captain Vana Dorja, an Imperial officer, in Destiny's Way, that the Empire would have crushed the Vong as soon as they invaded, prompting Han to rant about how they'd have built some stupid superweapon, the "Nostril of Palpatine," that would have blown up in their faces. Lastly, there's Betrayal, where a relatively young Intelligence officer flat-out says to Wedge Antilles' face that the old Rebels shouldn't be so smug and self-righteous because the Empire would have "kicked their teeth in" or something like that.

I think given the fact that

1.) The Pre-Endor Empire undoutedly had several times the military might all told than the New Republic did durng the Vong invasion by any account.

2.) The Empire was certainly at a better level of readiness and training at any given time than the New Republic was durign the Vong invasion.

and

3.) It would be impossible to make worse decisions than the New Republic did, i

it would be pretty hard to maintain that the Empire would not have done a far better job than the New Republic did.

Thanas wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Hey, the German Empire drove its people into ruin to pursue ridiculous atavistic policies of conquest, imperialism, and racial chauvenism.

.....you're an idiot who knows nothing about the German Empire, which actually was the most enlightened state of the early 20th century.

It was, does that change the substance of its ruling elite's war-aims and policies during World War I? How can anyone with even a threadbare grasp on WWI history deny those are qualities of German war policies and war aims during World War I? I'm just pointing out that 20 years later plenty of Germans were doubling down on the right, even though it had lost WWI.