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It was discussed on this forum, that the Endor might have had planetary shields, which would have protected it from the "Endor Holocaust", at least temporarily.

One point is missed, I believe, (and i think it's also ignored in a lot of other science fiction). The fleets, while in low orbit, fought using weapons, according to many sources, in the high gigaton - low teraton level.

Had there been no planetary shields after the bunker was destroyed, all surface life, along with the Ewoks and the Rebels, would have been incinerated very quickly simply from the flashes.

Why would they hit the planet? Once the shield was down, there's no valid target there for either side, and before that, they couldn't.

What Endor Holocaust?

Omeganian wrote:
Had there been no planetary shields after the bunker was destroyed, all surface life, along with the Ewoks and the Rebels, would have been incinerated very quickly simply from the flashes.

Unlikely, simply because the force of the explosions deterioates very quickly with distance.

Serafina wrote:

Omeganian wrote:
Had there been no planetary shields after the bunker was destroyed, all surface life, along with the Ewoks and the Rebels, would have been incinerated very quickly simply from the flashes.

Unlikely, simply because the force of the explosions deterioates very quickly with distance.

Yes. Inverse square. And?

Omeganian wrote:

Serafina wrote:

Omeganian wrote:
Had there been no planetary shields after the bunker was destroyed, all surface life, along with the Ewoks and the Rebels, would have been incinerated very quickly simply from the flashes.

Unlikely, simply because the force of the explosions deterioates very quickly with distance.

Yes. Inverse square. And?

Since they did NOT fight in the atmosphere (look at the visuals), only very small margins of the energy would reach the atmosphere. And by fraction i mean less than 1 in a million or the likes.

Hard numbers would be good. If you're one in a million is correct, then for a one teraton blast, that would be one megaton.

I'll admit its been awhile since I saw the movie, but wouldn't all the debris from the space battle eventually hit Endor due to simple gravity?

If that's the case then shouldn't Endor experience months if not years of large pieces of space debris hitting the planet causing the eventual failure of the ecosystem?

Even if we ignore the DS:II impacting the planet isn't Endor hosed just from the debris from the space battle?

Well if the massive firepower numbers that Star Wars weapons put out is true and to be believed... any debris should be in small enough chunks as to pose no threat.

Those chunks are made out of neutronium. A single chunk will dig a hole straight through Endor, like punching an entry hole into one side of the planet and an exit hole straight through the other side. Hell, even a stray turbolaser shot would do that!

Well it looks like something is incorrect then, either what the ships are made out of and the firepower of their weapons, or Endor isn't there anymore. Uh oh.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Those chunks are made out of neutronium. A single chunk will dig a hole straight through Endor, like punching an entry hole into one side of the planet and an exit hole straight through the other side. Hell, even a stray turbolaser shot would do that!

Do we really have to have vendettopathy here? Or is this just another bout of Shroomanity that people are taking too seriously? Either way, it needs to take a nap. Preferably a dirt nap.

Havok wrote:Well it looks like something is incorrect then, either what the ships are made out of and the firepower of their weapons, or Endor isn't there anymore. Uh oh.

Dude, you can look back and find probably a dozen threads over the Endor Holocaust, if you're willing to do this seriously. If you just want cheap shots, make a thread for it.

If we want to be serious, there are several options:

1. Parts of the planetary shield remained up, and only the area extended to protect the DSII was shut down. The Rebel fleet then used itself as a shield to protect the ground forces and Ewoks from the debris. They then slowly evacuated the Ewoks or cleared the dust and debris away.

2. The debris hit, but the Rebels rescued the Ewoks and repaired Endor once they had the resources to do so.

3. The debris didn't hit, because a wizard did it.

Just pick and choose your favorite, and then go at it.

Wasn't there a part in the Thrawn saga where Leia is on the Negori home world and she muses about the longterm environmental damage that a crashed spaceship can cause?

I know the revelation was that the empire was dicking them around so Vader would have an army of loyal assassins but before she makes that leap doesn't she assume that it was a relatively recent battle and ship crash?

JGregory32 wrote:Wasn't there a part in the Thrawn saga where Leia is on the Negori home world and she muses about the longterm environmental damage that a crashed spaceship can cause?

I know the revelation was that the empire was dicking them around so Vader would have an army of loyal assassins but before she makes that leap doesn't she assume that it was a relatively recent battle and ship crash?

She's thinking about toxic chemicals, though, not about nuclear winter from high-velocity impacts.

Wouldn't the threat of debris crashing through the atmosphere be present in any near-planetary space battle? Loooong before Endor? Why can't we assume that there's a millenia-long tradition of scanning for, intercepting and properly disposing of spare spaceship-bits post-battle by the victors?

Let's assume we have 200-250 gigatons every second, expanding from a point about 30,000 km away from the planet (I think these are rather generous figures). That's 10^21 watt, with the planet being part of a sphere with a surface area of approximately 10^15 square meters. One MW per square meter - the corresponding black body temperature is well above that required to melt steel. Atmosphere or no atmosphere, it would have been noticed.

Uh, no. Turbolasers are beam weapons, so you're not going to have 200 gigatons radiating out. All of it is going to be focused into the target, and armor is going to absorb much of the energy. The bleed-off that does get radiated away is nothing to sneeze at, but frankly it still pales in comparison to the Death Star explosion.

1. Parts of the planetary shield remained up, and only the area extended to protect the DSII was shut down. The Rebel fleet then used itself as a shield to protect the ground forces and Ewoks from the debris. They then slowly evacuated the Ewoks or cleared the dust and debris away.

Was it a full planetary shield? I thought it was just the area around the base and the DS2. I could be remembering wrong though.

Uraniun235 wrote:

1. Parts of the planetary shield remained up, and only the area extended to protect the DSII was shut down. The Rebel fleet then used itself as a shield to protect the ground forces and Ewoks from the debris. They then slowly evacuated the Ewoks or cleared the dust and debris away.

Was it a full planetary shield? I thought it was just the area around the base and the DS2. I could be remembering wrong though.

There was a full planetary shield. They had to talk to the Imperials about deactivating the shield so that they could land on Endor.

The part that extended to protect the DS2 was blown up, but you'd think they'd have multiple shield projectors spread throughout a planet's surface to protect it from multiple angles of approach. Otherwise, what's to stop a rebel strike team from coming out of hyperspace on the opposite side of Endor and trying to land on it without anyone noticing? Or if the only thing on Endor was the shield projector that surrounded the DS2, why couldn't the Fleet hit it when it came out of hyperspace? I think it's pretty heavily implied that there are two shields, one that extends around the DS2 and the other that extends across all of Endor's atmosphere. A full planetary shield would protect the projector that keeps the DS2 safe from Rebel fleets or starfighters.

Or if the only thing on Endor was the shield projector that surrounded the DS2, why couldn't the Fleet hit it when it came out of hyperspace?

Because it had a shield around itself, as well, ala hoth shield generator?

adam_grif wrote:

Or if the only thing on Endor was the shield projector that surrounded the DS2, why couldn't the Fleet hit it when it came out of hyperspace?

Because it had a shield around itself, as well, ala hoth shield generator?

Why do you selectively quote me when the rest of my quote shows I'm well aware that Endor had a shield around itself?

What's the issue with the one shield generator extending around the planet as well as the DS2? Is this beyond the capability of the technology? Even if we roll with your multiple generators theory, unless all that one generator did was literally just do the DS2, then there's still going to be a large section of planet exposed.

Does anybody have the pictures from the movie? I remember a bit where it has a diagram of the shield's coverage or something, which might be useful for this discussion.

adam_grif wrote:What's the issue with the one shield generator extending around the planet as well as the DS2? Is this beyond the capability of the technology?

I don't know, I would have thought to cover a planet with a shield so that nothing can hit it or land on it while it's up, would require a network of sorts. If Star Wars shield technology lets it happen with one projector, then so be it. I don't know if I have ever heard that though. If Endor had a full planetary shield then it would make it difficult for the Rebels to do those sneaky commando missions they like doing. It's only because they had stolen an Imperial shuttle and had a old code that the commando mission could even be attempted.

Even if we roll with your multiple generators theory, unless all that one generator did was literally just do the DS2, then there's still going to be a large section of planet exposed.

We have to account for the whole Endor celebration at the end of ROTJ somehow. Bakustra pointed out the three options. I was rolling with the first one because it strikes me as the most reasonable one. The Rebel fleet seemed to not be fighting the Imperial fleet anymore and was positioned in orbit between the DS2 and Endor - meaning it was in a good position to blast any debris that came close to striking the moon's surface.

Or alternatively a wizard did it. Those are pretty much the options.

I don't know, I would have thought to cover a planet with a shield so that nothing can hit it or land on it while it's up, would require a network of sorts.

I wouldn't be so sure. We already know that the shield generator could wrap all the way around the huge DSII in high orbit as well as cover itself (presumably). It's likely just a power issue here, since the magical shield... stuff (whatever it's made of) can apparently go all the way around spherical objects it doesn't have LoS with. Otherwise they'd just attack DS2 from the dark side of the (that's no) moon.

We have to account for the whole Endor celebration at the end of ROTJ somehow.

The rebels left the planet mere seconds before the slaughter. Alternatively, it took place on a part of the planet not devastated by the explosion

But fair enough. It's funny though. It seems that in defending plot holes in movies and shows like we do here, we employ the same kinds of logic and arguments we debunk and loathe when dealing with pseudoscience and religious folk. It's not hard to see how so many people can do these kinds of mental gymnastics when the deity in their godverse is ascribed the characteristic of can do anything.

adam_grif wrote:

I don't know, I would have thought to cover a planet with a shield so that nothing can hit it or land on it while it's up, would require a network of sorts.

I wouldn't be so sure. We already know that the shield generator could wrap all the way around the huge DSII in high orbit as well as cover itself (presumably). It's likely just a power issue here, since the magical shield... stuff (whatever it's made of) can apparently go all the way around spherical objects it doesn't have LoS with. Otherwise they'd just attack DS2 from the dark side of the (that's no) moon.

Possibly. Redundancy though would favour having more than one generator or projector, or rather you'd have different projectors for different tasks. If the one that blows up was solely focused on projecting a shield around DS2 then it doesn't have to split its focus also projecting a shield around itself. There might be issues of power management in that case (a single projector could focus all its power onto say protecting DS2, while another projector could focus on protecting the local area, or the entirety of Endor, or split this task between multiple projectors.)

We have to account for the whole Endor celebration at the end of ROTJ somehow.

The rebels left the planet mere seconds before the slaughter. Alternatively, it took place on a part of the planet not devastated by the explosion

Taking this line of thought seriously. The problem is the Rebels didn't leave immediately, there was a length of time some hours (at least) between the explosion of DS2 and the victory celebration at the end. For a start, the explosion took place in daytime, while the celebration was at night. The Ewok village had to have also been within marching distance of the shield generator, as Han's team had to walk to it from where they landed their shuttle, so it can't have been too far away.

Unfortunately, how do we reconcile the end of the film with the holocaust theory? Everybody is laughing and dancing and having a great old time when, if the theory is to be believed, what the should be fucking doing is grabbing their shit and fucking off five minutes ago. Hell the radiation from the explosion would have hit Endor's surface within minutes, and you have Han and Leia chatting and having a kiss totally unperturbed. Remember those fireworks that go off during the celebration? According to Saxton, those are bits of DS2 burning up or exploding.

But fair enough. It's funny though. It seems that in defending plot holes in movies and shows like we do here, we employ the same kinds of logic and arguments we debunk and loathe when dealing with pseudoscience and religious folk. It's not hard to see how so many people can do these kinds of mental gymnastics when the deity in their godverse is ascribed the characteristic of can do anything.

It's not my theory though. Saxton's theory is that radiation would hit the surface within minutes, and a percentage of DS2's mass would have also hit the moon at multiple points on the surface - too many points of impact and too much mass for the Rebel Fleet to cover by itself with its guns and tractors. You would start feeling the effects of both pretty soon after the explosion. Well if that's the case, you have Han and Leia kiss after being bathed with radiation minutes after the explosion. You have the Ewoks and Rebels celebrating hours later when what they should be doing is getting the fuck out of there. It doesn't add up. Saying that Endor was protected by an independent shield not related to the projector that covered DS2 is about the only alternative theory that preserves the events we see in the film. Either that, or a hidden cabal of force sensitive wizards living on Endor of all places looked up and waved their hands and the debris went away. (that actually happens in an EU novel too )