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Imperial Knights: yay or nay?
Posted: 2010-05-15 01:45pm
by Battlehymn Republic
Compared to Legacy of the Force and Traviss' works, Star Wars: Legacy seems to be tolerated or at worst ignored by most fans. So I have to ask- what do you guys think about the IK? They're "gray Jedi", but at least they're not wanky in the sense that they can use both light and dark side powers. The concept of an austere warrior order absolutely devoted to the emperor could possibly slightly influenced by 40K (which wouldn't be surprising in that Legacy is supposed to be in part the classic era modernized to contemporary sci-fi), but it's quite different from Space Marines and only is vaguely similar. So yeah what do you think of them, and is the addition of such a group cool, meh, or a blatant insult to the spirit of the original?
Re: Imperial Knights: yay or nay?
Posted: 2010-05-15 02:28pm
by Havok
It is fucking lame.
I toyed with this idea a long while before Legacy was ever a thought. Basically a group of Jedi that walked the line of dark and light based on the actions of Luke Skywalker. (This was way before the Prequels as well) I indeed even titled them Grey Jedi. (Yes Stark, in my
fanfiction! 
)
When you follow the logical path of the train of thought of using the light and dark together and especially with what we know now, for every one Luke and Mace, who can
barely manage walking that path, you are going to have a hundred Anakin Skywalkers that fail spectacularly.
And while they may not blatantly use dark side powers, if there is such a thing, their motivations and feelings teeter and stretch fairly far into dark side territory.
That said, I don't mind them if they are handled correctly and the arrogance of characters thinking they can handle and do what others before them can not, fits well into the Star Wars mythos.
Re: Imperial Knights: yay or nay?
Posted: 2010-05-15 08:05pm
by Battlehymn Republic
But unlike Cade Skywalker, they
don't walk the line between Light Side and Dark Side.
It was said that the first loyalty of the Imperial Knights was not to the Force, but to the Empire as personified in the Emperor... Although the Imperial Knights ultimately served the Force through the Emperor, this was only true if he himself served the light side of the Force. If he were ever to turn to the dark side, their duty was to either bring him back to the light or remove him from power. This policy was put into place at the time of the Order's founding, and as such, the Imperial Knights did ultimately owe their allegiance to the Force. According to Master Treis Sinde, the Imperial Knights served the Force by serving an Empire that brought order, with their duty being to the Emperor. Sinde also asserted that sacrificing innocents when necessary for the greater good was the Imperial way...
Imperial Knights
The Imperial Knights were trained in many of the same philosophies and techniques as the Jedi, but differed markedly in their credos and method. The Imperial Knights viewed the Force as a tool --- a powerful one to be respected, but not one that they spent time contemplating and meditating on. They knew the dangers of falling to the dark side, and believed that the Force could not be used out of anger or selfishness. Managing one's emotions and controlling one's fear in the face of adversity was a paramount aspect of Imperial Knight ideology. The strict mental discipline and obedience to orders that was part of their training made Imperial Knights less susceptible to the strong emotions that would draw students of the Jedi over to the dark side. Despite not drawing on the dark side, the Imperial Knights were said to not strictly follow the light side either, obeying the orders of the Emperor before anything else.
Just because they weren't purely light doesn't mean they were doomed to become dark. They do have questionable philosophies, but they don't use the "like and the dark together", and their motivations and feelings seem to be strictly austere and self-disciplined, counter to the attitudes of the Sith. Granted, this doesn't mean they're not fucking lame, but it doesn't mean they're doomed to become dark side. The Jensaarai turned out alright, after all.
Re: Imperial Knights: yay or nay?
Posted: 2010-05-15 08:20pm
by Eframepilot
In some ways, they are less vulnerable to falling to the dark side than the Jedi, since they don't bother as much with deep philosophy and introspection that can lead in dangerous directions. But on the other hand, being such an authoritarian order would discourage the free spirits who have been the greatest Jedi. Qui-Gon, Yoda and Luke would never become Imperial Knights.
Re: Imperial Knights: yay or nay?
Posted: 2010-05-15 08:26pm
by Havok
Battlehymn Republic wrote:But unlike Cade Skywalker, they don't walk the line between Light Side and Dark Side.
Cade does not walk between anything. He has firmly planted himself on the dark side on many occasions.
It was said that the first loyalty of the Imperial Knights was not to the Force, but to the Empire as personified in the Emperor... Although the Imperial Knights ultimately served the Force through the Emperor, this was only true if he himself served the light side of the Force. If he were ever to turn to the dark side, their duty was to either bring him back to the light or remove him from power. This policy was put into place at the time of the Order's founding, and as such, the Imperial Knights did ultimately owe their allegiance to the Force. According to Master Treis Sinde, the Imperial Knights served the Force by serving an Empire that brought order, with their duty being to the Emperor. Sinde also asserted that sacrificing innocents when necessary for the greater good was the Imperial way...
Imperial Knights
The Imperial Knights were trained in many of the same philosophies and techniques as the Jedi, but differed markedly in their credos and method. The Imperial Knights viewed the Force as a tool --- a powerful one to be respected, but not one that they spent time contemplating and meditating on. They knew the dangers of falling to the dark side, and believed that the Force could not be used out of anger or selfishness. Managing one's emotions and controlling one's fear in the face of adversity was a paramount aspect of Imperial Knight ideology. The strict mental discipline and obedience to orders that was part of their training made Imperial Knights less susceptible to the strong emotions that would draw students of the Jedi over to the dark side. Despite not drawing on the dark side, the Imperial Knights were said to not strictly follow the light side either, obeying the orders of the Emperor before anything else.
Just because they weren't purely light doesn't mean they were doomed to become dark. They do have questionable philosophies, but they don't use the "like and the dark together", and their motivations and feelings seem to be strictly austere and self-disciplined, counter to the attitudes of the Sith. Granted, this doesn't mean they're not fucking lame, but it doesn't mean they're doomed to become dark side. The Jensaarai turned out alright, after all.
Interesting. I don't really remember their motivations, but I thought I remembered them embracing passion and anger as tools they could control (hence my line about arrogance), I stand corrected then.
Re: Imperial Knights: yay or nay?
Posted: 2010-05-15 08:41pm
by General Mung Beans
I find them rather interesting. Hopefully we'll see more of them.
Re: Imperial Knights: yay or nay?
Posted: 2010-05-15 10:57pm
by Darth Fanboy
Laaaaaaaaaaaame as hell. Just another piss poor attempt to come up with edgy good guy force users. "Jedi are to sissy, Oooh what if Jedi served the Empire and we artificially made them all hardcore." No appeal to me.
Re: Imperial Knights: yay or nay?
Posted: 2010-05-16 08:49am
by Darth Yan
On the other hand, they are rather full of themselves and do have flaws.
Re: Imperial Knights: yay or nay?
Posted: 2010-05-17 03:45am
by DarkAscendant
Eframepilot wrote:In some ways, they are less vulnerable to falling to the dark side than the Jedi, since they don't bother as much with deep philosophy and introspection that can lead in dangerous directions. But on the other hand, being such an authoritarian order would discourage the free spirits who have been the greatest Jedi. Qui-Gon, Yoda and Luke would never become Imperial Knights.
Oh yes, I agree.
Introspection on actions is a major failing and can lead to well-meaning individuals becoming tyrannical despots justifying all their action in the name of something, as if these people are doing things without thinking them through. Yes, introspection is bad.
Re: Imperial Knights: yay or nay?
Posted: 2010-05-17 05:38pm
by Eframepilot
DarkAscendant wrote:
Oh yes, I agree.
Introspection on actions is a major failing and can lead to well-meaning individuals becoming tyrannical despots justifying all their action in the name of something, as if these people are doing things without thinking them through. Yes, introspection is bad.
Well, I'm glad you agree, and without the slightest touch of sarcasm. Seriously though, it seems like most of the Jedi dissidents who founded new Sith factions started out as Jedi who spent a little too much time meditating by themselves and coming up with dangerous ideas. Palpatine himself told Anakin that the Sith look inward just as the Jedi look outward.
Re: Imperial Knights: yay or nay?
Posted: 2010-05-17 08:21pm
by Battlehymn Republic
Issue 42 of Legacy is interesting, as even though the Imperial Knights are supposed to be few in number (40-60 apparently), there is enough discussion from within the order about what it means to be one. The whole group is devoted to the Emperor, but there is dissent whether it's supposed to be about his literal orders or to the Force as embodied in the institution of the Emperor.
This sort of distinction also occurs earlier in the series, when Draco Antares goes to rescue the princess against the orders of the emperor. About really following his literal orders, or serving him even against his orders. So at least they're not blatant mindless followers.
Re: Imperial Knights: yay or nay?
Posted: 2010-05-18 01:15pm
by bz249
How powerful are they as compared to a Jedi or a Sith? IMHO they should be way weaker overall (though they could excel in one or two areas) since using the Force as a tool should not give a full understanding of the stuff. There is a reason why Jedi and Sith devote their whole life investigating the different aspects of the Force.
Re: Imperial Knights: yay or nay?
Posted: 2010-05-18 02:10pm
by Magister Militum
I find them personally to be an interesting concept, though they do come off as the macho edgy type that Fanboy mentioned.