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I remember reading an article that blasted the original trilogy for plot holes; I rewatched empire strikes back on friday and I didn't see too many, so I am wondering whether any of the OT has any serious plot holes that detract from the film's story.

I don't think there's much in the OT that detracts from the story in a significant way. Probably the closest thing to a plot hole is in A New Hope. Even though Leia seriously suspects that Vader is tracking the Millenium Falcon, she still heads to the Rebel Base. It's not exactly a plot hole, but it's a really questionable course of action. I don't see why she couldn't have insisted they take the Millenium Falcon to some other remote space port and switch craft. Han would certainly protest, but she didn't even try anything other than to sigh in frustration.

It depends what you mean by 'seriously detract'. I suppose you could nitpick the films till the cows come home, but I'd suppose that how significant anything you get from that varies from person to person.

The biggest plot hole? I always wondered how the Millenium Falcon crossed interstellar distances with no hyperdrive and arrive at Bespin without relativity affecting things. Thank god the EU invented 'backup hyperdrives' to address this issue, since nothing else does.

Channel72 wrote:I don't think there's much in the OT that detracts from the story in a significant way. Probably the closest thing to a plot hole is in A New Hope. Even though Leia seriously suspects that Vader is tracking the Millenium Falcon, she still heads to the Rebel Base. It's not exactly a plot hole, but it's a really questionable course of action. I don't see why she couldn't have insisted they take the Millenium Falcon to some other remote space port and switch craft. Han would certainly protest, but she didn't even try anything other than to sigh in frustration.

Because Han is the captain and if she starts telling him what to do he could always toss her ass out the airlock and tell her to flap her arms and fly to Yavin. Besides, she didn't know that they were being tracked, she surmised it and drew it as a logical inference given the ease of their escape - but it's not like she found the tracking device. Han's reaction is that they can't be tracking his ship because he's a smuggler and he makes it his business to be untrackable - though he was obviously wrong, it's not a plot hole in the sense the OP means. After all, Han being arrogant is part of his character - him thinking he's invincible or that his ship can't be tracked is reasonable given that arrogance. Sure, the prudent thing would have been to jump out somewhere and make a thorough inspection, but if you don't know what you're looking for, and if you actually are being tracked, you run the risk of being intercepted again while you're looking for the whatever device. After all, the Princess is still a valuable prisoner to have, and she has intel, Han and Luke and Chewie are all guilty of murdering soldiers (this is how they will see it mind you, I'm not saying the Empire is good or whatever), and the droids are ironically enough still on the Falcon and can be recovered before the plans get delivered to Yavin.

Given that last point, getting to Yavin ASAP was absolutely critical because Artoo still had the plans, transmitting them via the holonet would be impossible (I don't think Yavin would have a link up but even if it did, the holonet is monitored IIRC and so sending a message would result in the exact same thing happening as it did in the film), and going to another port and finding another ship would take too much time (either the Empire would make another example out of a rebel world or would find out about their Achilles heel and plug the hole or concentrating its defences, leaving the Rebels with no chance whatsoever of destroying it).

Stofsk wrote:The biggest plot hole? I always wondered how the Millenium Falcon crossed interstellar distances with no hyperdrive and arrive at Bespin without relativity affecting things. Thank god the EU invented 'backup hyperdrives' to address this issue, since nothing else does.

Didn't they specifically dialogue that as looking for a place of berth within range? Hence everything Han checking out on his screen being something the Falcon could make within reasonable time, whether with ftl or not? It starts looking weird if you look at the map of the galaxy they've started putting in books, but then we'd get into the whole canonicity level of different mediums.

Gaidin wrote:

Stofsk wrote:The biggest plot hole? I always wondered how the Millenium Falcon crossed interstellar distances with no hyperdrive and arrive at Bespin without relativity affecting things. Thank god the EU invented 'backup hyperdrives' to address this issue, since nothing else does.

Didn't they specifically dialogue that as looking for a place of berth within range? Hence everything Han checking out on his screen being something the Falcon could make within reasonable time, whether with ftl or not? It starts looking weird if you look at the map of the galaxy they've started putting in books, but then we'd get into the whole canonicity level of different mediums.

Yeah, but the hyperdrive failed twice before so either there was a back up already in the Falcon - which obviously can't be instantly used in the kind of situations they had been in twice before - or they used STL propulsion to get there. The problem with the latter is that Luke would need to have spent years on Dagobah rather than the days/maybe a week he actually did. After all, Boba Fett was tracking Han and Leia as well, why would he track them on a STL jaunt through interstellar space when he could just radio Vader and have him to pick them up? And how much fuel/consumables would you need for such a trip, when most people get by on hyperdrives that make crossing the galaxy in a few hours/days a common occurrence?

It's only a plot hole because nobody says 'I guess we better try the backup hyperdrive now that nobody is shooting at us.' Otherwise, nobody thinks about it. Ditto for the absence/presence of a planetary shield on Endor. If there's no shield, Han and Leia and the Ewoks and Chewie would have been killed - but that would have been a downer ending, so we kind of have to assume there was a planetary shield even when the heroes are on Endor to blow up the shield generator. Again, it could have been fixed by saying that Endor is protected by a shield but also has this other projector which is the real target - that line could have been in the briefing if someone had asked why doesn't the fleet just destroy the shield projector from orbit, and Ackbar saying because Endor has a separate shield defending that area or the entire surface.

The biggest plot hole? I always wondered how the Millenium Falcon crossed interstellar distances with no hyperdrive and arrive at Bespin without relativity affecting things. Thank god the EU invented 'backup hyperdrives' to address this issue, since nothing else does.

Um, this actually makes MORE sense without the backup hyperdrive. It gives Luke a timeframe of months to train, rather than the hours that are experienced by Leia and Han. It also gives Boba Fett all the time he needs to fly around, report back to Vader, the two of them to lean on Calrissian and set up the picture-perfect ambush, etc., etc.

Anguirus wrote:

The biggest plot hole? I always wondered how the Millenium Falcon crossed interstellar distances with no hyperdrive and arrive at Bespin without relativity affecting things. Thank god the EU invented 'backup hyperdrives' to address this issue, since nothing else does.

Um, this actually makes MORE sense without the backup hyperdrive. It gives Luke a timeframe of months to train, rather than the hours that are experienced by Leia and Han. It also gives Boba Fett all the time he needs to fly around, report back to Vader, the two of them to lean on Calrissian and set up the picture-perfect ambush, etc., etc.

No, it makes no sense at all. Luke spends little time on Dagobah, but even if he spent months on it, don't you think it's a plot hole if the script doesn't refer to that length of time?

Also Boba Fett is really going to bother spending that amount of time chasing after the Falcon in interstellar space when he could just tell Vader where they are and he can jump in and nab them with a tractor beam. After all, Lando says the Empire arrived before Han and Leia did, so it's not like Vader couldn't have jumped in front of Han if he's going at STL speeds. The only way Boba Fett would willingly do that is if he was being paid by the hour; by the end of the film, he'd be a fucking multi-millionaire.

And yeah, for it to work we'd need to know the distance between Anoat and Bespin, since they're referred to as two different systems. Although how they went from Hoth to Anoat is another thing the film doesn't make clear, since it implies the Imperial fleet rendevouzed in another system but to do that the Avenger would have to jump to hyperspace, and if it did that Han could have released the Falcon safely rather than doing it when he did it. EDIT: On second thought, that's not a plot hole as such, since Han was specifically waiting for the Avenger to dump its garbage.

Also, the Rebel Fleet would have to spend months to years at the rendevouz point it was in at the end of the film. Given that for a guerrilla force that has just evacuated its base of operations, staying in one spot too long is inviting destruction - what if one of the Rebel transports was tractored rather than destroyed, and the rendevouz point was compromised as a result? What about getting resupplied or finding another base of operations? - why would the Rebel fleet stay in one spot for any length of time unless it's a base where they can repair and resupply?

So yeah. It makes absolutely no sense at all.

I think someone at lucas film said that luke spent three months on dagobah

well that clears that up

How about a citation before we jump to conclusions, Stofsk .

No, it makes no sense at all. Luke spends little time on Dagobah, but even if he spent months on it, don't you think it's a plot hole if the script doesn't refer to that length of time?

Not necessarily a plot hole in that case, but I absolutely believe that we fans put more thought into this particular couple of scenes and lines than Lucas ever did.

I freely admit it's a kludge, but for some reason I find patient Imperials a little bit better than Luke becoming a mini-Jedi Knight with the equivalent of a few night courses.

if palpy sensed luke why did they never track him down earlier.

Darth Yan wrote:if palpy sensed luke why did they never track him down earlier.

What do you mean? I don't think he began sensing Luke until about TESB.

Darth Yan wrote:if palpy sensed luke why did they never track him down earlier.

If I remember correctly it was because he was shielded by Obi wan with two large Force potentials in close proximity cancel out or something. This only rises more questions about why Leia was never sensed at all.

What the crap...? Two great Force users somehow cancel each other out, and not, you know, make even a bigger blip on the Force radar? That is fucking dumb.

The reason that Palpatine doesn't sense Luke before TESB, is because he doesn't do anything beyond some basic instinct type stuff. What he senses in TESB is someone knowingly, directly tapping into the Force, and he then senses who it is. The fact that Luke just training properly is described as 'a great disturbance in the Force' along with Allderan being destroyed should say something about how big of an impact Luke and possibly the Jedi have on the Force.

The same goes for Obi Wan and Yoda. They remain undetected because they don't use the Force anymore until they come into contact with Luke again. Even when Yoda is training Luke he maintains this as much as possible and it obviously works despite his use of the Force as he remains hidden from Palpatine until he finally figures it out who was training Luke on the DSII by reading Luke's emotions and feelings.

Havok wrote:What the crap...? Two great Force users somehow cancel each other out, and not, you know, make even a bigger blip on the Force radar? That is fucking dumb.

The reason that Palpatine doesn't sense Luke before TESB, is because he doesn't do anything beyond some basic instinct type stuff. What he senses in TESB is someone knowingly, directly tapping into the Force, and he then senses who it is. The fact that Luke just training properly is described as 'a great disturbance in the Force' along with Allderan being destroyed should say something about how big of an impact Luke and possibly the Jedi have on the Force.

The same goes for Obi Wan and Yoda. They remain undetected because they don't use the Force anymore until they come into contact with Luke again. Even when Yoda is training Luke he maintains this as much as possible and it obviously works despite his use of the Force as he remains hidden from Palpatine until he finally figures it out who was training Luke on the DSII by reading Luke's emotions and feelings.

Sorry basing it off of something I read in one of the books a long time ago ( I want to say the Thrawn trilogy) I do remember it mentioning the possibility of Yoda using the dark side cave to mask his presence and the theory of Obi wan using Luke to hide him self was mention, but it has been years since I have read any of the EU books so my memory is a bit hazy at best.

Wait a second, are you saying that the EU came up with a stupid reason to explain something that could have just been left at 'not using the Force'? I am shocked... SHOCKED!

hunter5 wrote:Sorry basing it off of something I read in one of the books a long time ago ( I want to say the Thrawn trilogy)

That would be Heir to the Empire, I believe.

The entire thermal exhaust port bit never made any sense. The Empire does not notice this flaw for years of work, but the Rebels find it in a few hours? Yeah fucking right. Even if nothing could be done to change the port either (which we know is not true on the DS2) they could have just put a couple armor grates on it, exactly like what was done to protect battleships funnels.

Sea Skimmer wrote:The entire thermal exhaust port bit never made any sense. The Empire does not notice this flaw for years of work, but the Rebels find it in a few hours? Yeah fucking right. Even if nothing could be done to change the port either (which we know is not true on the DS2) they could have just put a couple armor grates on it, exactly like what was done to protect battleships funnels.

Apparently in the Death Star novel, the construction and on-site design-revision team noticed the extra exhaust port and were going to excise it but got busy, forgot to put it in writing and then it ended up staying. Kaboom.

Probably not a plot hole so much as someone making WAY too much hay from it: the repeated "standby" remark from the gunner before the Death Star goes boom at the end of ANH. The recent novel made him a shell-shocked individual who is balking at firing again (why? it's a legitimate military target with no civilian inhabitants as far as we know). Here's my idea for that portion:

The superlaser channels a lot of energy in a short amount of time. Even the Empire's technology probably can't take that much thermal stress without becoming useless slag. So there may be circuit breakers or fuses that make sure the expensive bits aren't demolished on a routine basis from power surges. Luke fires his torpedoes and the chain reaction goes off as predicted. Sensors note the energy spike and starts isolating the superlaser from the reactor to prevent an overload. The gunnery crew notices the breakers going off and, while wondering what's going on, start executing manual overrides since they can blow the moon to dust. The repeated "stand by" is the gunner seeing his board light up with errors and trying to quickly fix the problem to get the shot off.

There's my thoughts. Let the flaming commence.

No flaming required. A novel written 30 years after the fact does not create a plot hole in the movie. In fact, none of the EU creates plot holes after the fact. Ironically, only the Prequels can (and did) create plot holes.

phongn wrote: Apparently in the Death Star novel, the construction and on-site design-revision team noticed the extra exhaust port and were going to excise it but got busy, forgot to put it in writing and then it ended up staying. Kaboom.

That's still bullshit when the only way you could ever design all the details of something that huge would be a lot of automated computer programs which should easily notice the risk. It would have been a basic design standard that such ports are protected, no matter what such a port leads into you would still not want enemy weapons to be able to enter it and explode inside the hull. But then certain parts of the EU basically try to insist that a single person designed the fucking thing so what do we expect.

Phhhbbttt that exhaust port wasn't a flaw, I mean come on it was no bigger than a womp rat for fuck's sake!