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Seriously. Why the hell do so many people support the galactic empire? Going on the films alone they were pretty damn evil (blowing up aldeeran despite having less destructive methods and despite the fact that many people on the planet weren't spies, thus showing that they didn't give a shit about their civillians, and doing it purely to show off the death star's power), murdering the jawas for shits and giggles, and murdering owen and beru despite the fact that they probably had no clue about the droids being fugitives. Yet there are still twats on every star wars forum who support them, and the weekly standard actually wanked it twice. And there are several apologist websites. What gives?

I suppose the fact that the EU presents the subsequent New Republic as incompetent twats and their eventual fall to a bunch of biowank assholes due to their own stupidity, and the continual strife and instability that leads all the way up to a new Empire in the Legacy comics making the whole saga seem pointless has something to do with it.

As for Alderaan. Bail Organa must've been some kind of asshole to think he could so blatantly support an armed insurgency with his own ships and people and not expect consequences.
This doesn't excuse blowing up the planet so Tarkin could prove he had the biggest dick of all time, and it remains a foul act. But I can see where some could try and build a case to justify it.

The weekly standard jackass doesn't even acknoweldge the EU and he's still one of the worst.

You do know you answered your own question?

They are apologists of it, because all we see is the actions of certain individuals. This allows the thought that these are not the actions of the whole but only certain malcontent elements. But thank you for painting an easy target for them by screeching and so they can deride that but not refute the points they set forth and deconstructing them.

The Galactic Empire as depicted in the films was an incredibly entertaining antagonist, some people just take their love a liiiiitttttttttle too far, and then try to justify that with the EU. Hell my favorite characters from the films are Imperial. Even most people who like the Empire and Imperial characters will admit that they were some awful fucking guys.

The apologists that try to say that slavery and mass murder were ok? Seriously, i'm still trying to understand that shit.

Personally I'm not an Imperial apologist. But what I see of the last year of the Galactic Empire and the mess of the New Republic make me think it was the lesser evil. Not by intention but by being less corrupted than the Old Republic and more competent than the New.

lord Martiya wrote:Personally I'm not an Imperial apologist. But what I see of the last year of the Galactic Empire and the mess of the New Republic make me think it was the lesser evil. Not by intention but by being less corrupted than the Old Republic and more competent than the New.

I can't. I can, however, easily see people "supporting" it in the same way that irate commuters "support" Mussolini, for the reasons you point out.

Despite how much people in a comfortable society general will talk about certain freedoms (i.e., speech, press, etc.) as if they are the end all be all, many of those same people will often forgo those freedoms when confronted with societal instabilities (i.e., unchecked crime, unrest, starvation) that lead to suffering. If the Empire truly did ensure the existence of a safe and stable society after the Civil War, then they are truly the lesser evil.

While I’m not that knowledgeably of the EU (and don’t want to be ) as I understand it, the average citizen didn’t suffer at all under the Empire. It’s not like stormtroopers routinely walked up and down the street kicking peoples puppies and stealing their children’s sweets. The ones we saw on Tatooine looking for the droids seemed relatively polite. Of course you could chalk that up to the Jedi mind trick.

lord Martiya wrote:Personally I'm not an Imperial apologist. But what I see of the last year of the Galactic Empire and the mess of the New Republic make me think it was the lesser evil. Not by intention but by being less corrupted than the Old Republic and more competent than the New.

Please tell me how slavery, political opression, and murder are a "lesser evil" than what the New Republic did?

Temujin wrote:Despite how much people in a comfortable society general will talk about certain freedoms (i.e., speech, press, etc.) as if they are the end all be all, many of those same people will often forgo those freedoms when confronted with societal instabilities (i.e., unchecked crime, unrest, starvation) that lead to suffering. If the Empire truly did ensure the existence of a safe and stable society after the Civil War, then they are truly the lesser evil.

So the ends justify the means? Enslaving or wiping out entire species is an acceptable method of stabilizing society? Because that's what the Empire did and would have continued to do. Nonhuman species in the galaxy probably would differ from what human populations experienced

While I’m not that knowledgeably of the EU (and don’t want to be ) as I understand it, the average citizen didn’t suffer at all under the Empire.

Average human citizen perhaps, save for the average citizens on Alderaan or Toprawa to name a couple of planets. (Hint: you do not need to be knowledgeable about the EU to know about Alderaan.)

It’s not like stormtroopers routinely walked up and down the street kicking peoples puppies and stealing their children’s sweets. The ones we saw on Tatooine looking for the droids seemed relatively polite. Of course you could chalk that up to the Jedi mind trick.

No but from time to time they landed ships on worlds, rounded up beings, and made them into slaves. But hey it didn't happen to the average nonhuman citizen on a centrally located system that often right?

Darth Fanboy wrote:

lord Martiya wrote:Personally I'm not an Imperial apologist. But what I see of the last year of the Galactic Empire and the mess of the New Republic make me think it was the lesser evil. Not by intention but by being less corrupted than the Old Republic and more competent than the New.

Please tell me how slavery, political opression, and murder are a "lesser evil" than what the New Republic did?

I do not endorse slavery, oppression or murder.
On the other hand, getting the millenia old capital of the galaxy overrun by freaks who intend to ruin it and genocide every inhabitant to make way for their own eco-system because of rank incompetence is pretty damn bad.
Whatever the Empire did, it did not let the center of galactic society collapse.

Gramzamber wrote: I do not endorse slavery, oppression or murder.
On the other hand, getting the millenia old capital of the galaxy overrun by freaks who intend to ruin it and genocide every inhabitant to make way for their own eco-system because of rank incompetence is pretty damn bad.
Whatever the Empire did, it did not let the center of galactic society collapse.

In other words, because the New Republic was unprepared for the threat of the Yuuzhan Vong, it would have been better to have had the Empire rule the galaxy and continue enslaving, murdering, and opressing in the name of Palpatine? How dare the New Republic not be omniscient and realize that there could be evil alien tribes from beyond the galaxy bent on killing everyone, they shoul dhave been in a state of total war production as soon as the Vong showed up!

Was it the Empire that turned back the Vong? Nope! While they weren't called the New Republic, the GFFA was the NR in all but name and after the reorg they had defeated the Vong within a year.

Yes, the NR lost Coruscant, OH FUCKING NO! They lost a battle when trying to defend their capital, you think that is a worse crime than what the Empire did? It's not like Coruscant was the capital once again before too long....wait...

There's a difference between not being prepared and criminal incompetence. The latter is what the New Republic displayed at every turn.
Hell the Vong invasion was just the last in the litany of stupidity and bad leadership from a bloated, do-nothing regime. It's always made me think that, while EU authors may not have a pro-Empire agenda, they certainly think the Rebellion was too stupid to take over.

Darth Fanboy wrote:So the ends justify the means? Enslaving or wiping out entire species is an acceptable method of stabilizing society? Because that's what the Empire did and would have continued to do. Nonhuman species in the galaxy probably would differ from what human populations experienced.

Well if the alternative is the NR that allows the galaxy to descend into anarchy and get invaded by a group hell bent on killing everyone then as much as I hate to say it yes, though only in a strictly utilitarian sense that retaining centralized civil order benefits the whole from a much greater fate. I was sloppy with my words and should have made that clearer. However the events involved are obviously a lot less clear cut and I will concede my position, also adding that it would have been best had the Old Republic never fell, as ineffectual as it was becoming.

Gramzamber wrote:There's a difference between not being prepared and criminal incompetence. The latter is what the New Republic displayed at every turn.

Show that the New Republic displayed a criminal level of incompetence then. I can provide a list of documented atrocities and massacres committed by the Galactic Empire to demonstrate how nasty and evil they were.

If you're going to say that the Empire was a better choice to rule than the New Republic, let's see you provide some evidence then instead of parroting what the previously mentioned Imperial Apologists like to bleat out every time this subject comes up.

Hell the Vong invasion was just the last in the litany of stupidity and bad leadership from a bloated, do-nothing regime. It's always made me think that, while EU authors may not have a pro-Empire agenda, they certainly think the Rebellion was too stupid to take over.

Yes the NR wasn't a great government how very astute of you and anyone with a single digit number of brain cells who read the EU. That's not the point. The New Republic wasn't very effective as a federal government, but they were most certainly a better alternative to citizens than the Galactic Empire was.

Temujin wrote: Well if the alternative is the NR that allows the galaxy to descend into anarchy and get invaded by a group hell bent on killing everyone then as much as I hate to say it yes, though only in a strictly utilitarian sense that retaining centralized civil order benefits the whole from a much greater fate.

The flaw in your argument here is that the New Republic/GFFA did eventually defeat the Vong and turned them back. Now if the Empire stays in charge, they probably do defeat the Vong. But that doesn't stop the crimes the Empire is committing in the process. If Palpatine's empire remains in charge the crimes against nonhumans and dissident humans will continue, and murder and enslavement will remain unchecked.

I was sloppy with my words and should have made that clearer. However the events involved are obviously a lot less clear cut and I will concede my position, also adding that it would have been best had the Old Republic never fell, as ineffectual as it was becoming.

I agree with your addition, although perhaps if Palpatine's rise to power had been caught early there could have been improvements. We do not know the depth of Sith Machinations post-Ruusaan, only that Darth Bane had begun plotting behind the scenes not long afterwards and that it culminated with the Clone Wars a millenium later. The ineffectiveness of the Republic may have been repairable in the absence of Palpatine.

Depends on which Empire you are talking about. If it were cruel beings like Palpatine himself or Isard than probably no but the Imperial Remnant (under Pellaeon) and the Roan Fel's Empire were certainly not evil.

Gramzamber wrote:There's a difference between not being prepared and criminal incompetence. The latter is what the New Republic displayed at every turn.
Hell the Vong invasion was just the last in the litany of stupidity and bad leadership from a bloated, do-nothing regime. It's always made me think that, while EU authors may not have a pro-Empire agenda, they certainly think the Rebellion was too stupid to take over.

Oh for fucks sake. First of all, you are giving EU authors too much credit, not even that much thought goes into it. Second, they don't think the rebellion is too stupid to take over, they just have to come up with a fucking threat that can challenge them every fucking year, and since 95% of them are shit writers, instead of making the bad guys smart enough to challenge a galaxy wide competently run government, they make the galactic wide government so fucking INcompetent and stupid that a nobody retard threat seems threatening.

General Mung Beans wrote:Depends on which Empire you are talking about. If it were cruel beings like Palpatine himself or Isard than probably no but the Imperial Remnant (under Pellaeon) and the Roan Fel's Empire were certainly not evil.

You have to be a goddamned retard to not realize we are talking about the Empire as established by Palpatine.

Wait I forgot who I was addressing...

Gramzamber wrote:

Darth Fanboy wrote:

lord Martiya wrote:Personally I'm not an Imperial apologist. But what I see of the last year of the Galactic Empire and the mess of the New Republic make me think it was the lesser evil. Not by intention but by being less corrupted than the Old Republic and more competent than the New.

Please tell me how slavery, political opression, and murder are a "lesser evil" than what the New Republic did?

I do not endorse slavery, oppression or murder.
On the other hand, getting the millenia old capital of the galaxy overrun by freaks who intend to ruin it and genocide every inhabitant to make way for their own eco-system because of rank incompetence is pretty damn bad.
Whatever the Empire did, it did not let the center of galactic society collapse.

Wait a second.. so what you are saying is because you feel that the New Republic is incompetent, that they are worse than the Empire.

OK...
Death Star: Destroyed
Death Star II: Destroyed
Rebellions defeated: 0
Life Span: Under 30 years
Years of peace: 0
Coruscant protected: No (Reclaimed by the Rebellion)
Defeated by teddy bears: Yes

Seriously... The Empire didn't face HALF the shit the New Republic did and they still got their asses handed to them. Who is criminally incompetent?

But Hav the Empire was obviously more successful as the Ewoks did not eat the Core Worlds thus civilization was preserved. Unlike when society completely collapsed after the Vong took Coruscant and it was never the same ever again.

Darth Fanboy wrote:

General Mung Beans wrote:Depends on which Empire you are talking about. If it were cruel beings like Palpatine himself or Isard than probably no but the Imperial Remnant (under Pellaeon) and the Roan Fel's Empire were certainly not evil.

You have to be a goddamned retard to not realize we are talking about the Empire as established by Palpatine.

Wait I forgot who I was addressing...

Didn't read the OP closely, my bad.

Okay really, you're going to list the Empire's losses that the Rebellion itself is responsible for due in no small amount to a hell of a lot of luck the Force being on their side?
Yes, Imperial arrogance and Palpatine's late life senilty were a factor in it but you know what? They're still better than the amateur morons of the New Republic.

Also Coruscant was reclaimed not by the NR, but by the GA which hey, had the Imperial Remnant as a part in it.
I actually don't know the specifics of the end of the Vong farce as it bored me to tears, but wasn't the Vong's departure from Coruscant more due to external factors (some sentient planet telling them to fuck off) rather than a military victory?

So the NR's loses and incompetence count, but it doesn't matter when it happens to the Empire?

And saying the Imperial Remnant=Empire is so absolutely ridiculous it doesn't even garner a response.

Havok wrote:So the NR's loses and incompetence count, but it doesn't matter when it happens to the Empire?

They both count, it's a question of scale. The Empire lost it's pet projects, the NR lost the galactic center.

And saying the Imperial Remnant=Empire is so absolutely ridiculous it doesn't even garner a response.

That's nice, because I didn't say that.
Of course it isn't Palpatine's Empire.. The point being the NR as the Empire's replacement could do dick on it's own, it had to gather up with other fractured factions of the galaxy to kick out something that should never have been a problem in the first place.