StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Not only do I get a headache from the hundreds or thousands of search results, but the matching words are marked in yellow, so I can't read the word.... To make it short, I don't wanna torture myself for an hour trying to find debates over these things... So I guess I have to skip a really serious search. The SD Wiki didn't really answer it either, I've looked at it.

Another thing is, I've seen the movies, but didn't read any books or play games (except for Empire at War and Shadow of the Empire). So I might not know some important things, but I'm sure I'll get told in a more or less friendly way

So my questions are......

1.) Why do the Stormtroopers suck so much? There seems to be not a single thing about them that would make them effective soldiers. All the mentioned things are posted with the fact in mind, that they can mass produce turbolasers for large battleships, strong enough to wipe out planets, so they should have nice military tech....

a) Their armor

Why is it unflexible? It looks like you've a hard time to really effectively move in it. Most Stormtroopers we see in the movies don't seem to be too agile. That's not exactly a good thing.

Why is it white? Except for winter (and even then they have black parts on their armor) this is probably one of the worst camouflage colours you could pick. So why white? For identification, so you can tell these are official Stormtroopers? To make it short, I don't get why it's white. Even the squad on Endor wears white armor!

Why is it worn all the time? I can see why you would want to wear a full budy armor with helmet which can do things like protect you from extreme weather conditions or even space. But why inside the Death Star?

Most importantly, it fails every time we see it in action. I can't remember a single Stromtrooper who did not immediately fall down and obviously die after being hit by a handgun sized device. I know that in real life, protective vests don't protect you from all kinds of damage or calibers either. But they don't fail all the time. In SW, they do. Not only against some handgun blasters, but even against rocks and the like. They build Death Stars, but they fail to develop a helmet which would protect it's wearer from a rock. Even a modern army helmet does that. Actually you can get smacked on the head with a rock and would not even fall over. Which immediately begs the question: Why do they wear it on Endor?

To make things worse, it even looks like you can't store much stuff in it. I actually think that this armor is the worst armor I have ever seen, especially considering that it's state of the art armor of an Empire which controls an entire Galaxy and regularly builds ships which could punish entire planets with some teratons per second and can go through the galaxy in some.... hours or days, I don't know.

b) Their effectivity

What makes it impossible for soldiers of the major power of the galaxy to capture a hand full of people on their own strongest and largest base ever built (before DS II)? Why do they fail so terribly in any scene we see them? We see trained soldiers (trained by the largest military force ever) with military grade armor and weapons losing firefights to civilians which aren't even armored. That's implausible to say the very least.

It's common knowledge that the Stormtroopers are ineffective. But why? The USA has the most advanced and strongest military in the world. And one of the largest ones. Still, their soldiers are very well trained.

It gets even much, much worse when the 'elite' squad on Endor got it's ass handed by Ewoks. There are 2 possible options for this: The Ewoks are very damn good warriors. And I mean very damn good. Or the Empire's elite sucks. Maybe both, I don't know.... I'm also surprised that they didn't see any of the Ewok shit coming. Got no sensors? No reconnaissance? Nobody telling you that Ewoks worked for like 10 hours to set up their traps?

2.) The Death Star

The thing is made to annihilate worlds. Okay. So why does the world annihilator have an open hole which leads directly to the core? What does it do? Why is it unprotected? In the SD Wiki it's called an exhaust port. For what? Does that core generate gas, which has to be blown into space? Is it for cooling? For whatever it is, there is no reason to not have at least a crate on it. Or a door. Or at least metal bars blocking things like nasty proton torpedoes. I guess the designers were full of fail or something, because it's an obvious weak spot.

And once again, it gets worse, because Death Star II was improved... or not... This time, a proton torpedo wouldn't get through. It's no straight hole. Design flaw solved..... or not.... This time an entire ship can fly in. The very same kind of ship that killed off DS I.

No matter how you want to excuse this, by the DS being in construction, not ready, not expecting the rebel attack, having a large shield, or even expecting the attack, whatever. If you build something this large and this important for your military, you'd be the most stupid and most incompetent person ever doing this job if you, at no point, ever look at the previously destroyed Death Star and make sure they don't do something similar again. Imagine the Ewoks made a bonfire somewhere near the shield generator and it got out of control. Or they have a power outage. Ever heard of redundancy? They didn't even bother to build a second shield generator there. They didn't bother to have that shit done by a large, armored warship. An Executor surely could house the generator....

3.) The Executor / General ISD Design

How could the rebels bring the Executor down? If we take a look at the movie, it seems like they destroy the shield generators near the ISDs bridges. With some ease I might add. Eventually some A Wing dude flies his pile of junk into the Executor's bridge and it collides with the DS.

If these ships are so well armored and have so many and so powerful guns (and are not alone... at least not in Ep VI), how could the A Wing get through? More importantly, how could it crash into that bridge and cause total devastation? Shouldn't the bridge, which is on top and very easy to see and aim at, be well armored? At least against an object which flies against it? I'm not saying it has to take 5 nukes to the window, but all it suffers from is an impact of something which could as well have been an asteroid at a power failure or whatever. Shouldn't there be a second bridge for such a case, a failsafe system, something? We're talking about a 19km warship here, not a one-time razor blade you throw away after using it.

4.) The AT-ST

There is a scene which I found kind of disturbing in Ep VI. It's the AT-ST getting smashed by 2 tree chunks. They cause extreme deformation to the AT-ST and (if I remember correctly....) it blows up. Even if it doesn't, we can assume that this AT-ST won't ever see battle again.

..... can you really defeat that thing with cannon balls? It seems like you can.... Actually the AT-ST getting crushed seems even more fragile than a modern tank. Even today's Al Qaida could take this thing out.....

5.) The Tie Bomber

Why don't we see any effects caused by the bombs, except for a very short flash, when Han hid his Falcon in that asteroid slug? Shouldn't we see some explosions or craters or anything?

Was just wondering the last time I saw SW, but never bothered to actually ask anyone who might have an idea. Also it's the only SW forum I know, so....

A point by point rebuttal isn't worth my time... suffice it to say that all of these topics have been debated endlessly, many of the answers are on the main page, and your laziness is insulting. Go away and come back with something that you've clearly thought through, instead of this half-assed "SW sucks!" garbage.

DotS wrote:1.) Why do the Stormtroopers suck so much?

The out-of-universe answer is that the movies would suck if the heroes were mowed down in the first twenty seconds. It's the same in any movie/television.

Why is it unflexible?

Is it? Luke and Han didn't seem to have too much trouble moving around the Death Star after wearing it for the first time. We see stormtroopers run, go prone, etc.

Why is it white?

To be seen. Stormtroopers aren't regular soldiers, they're visible symbols of Imperial authority.

Why is it worn all the time? I can see why you would want to wear a full budy armor with helmet which can do things like protect you from extreme weather conditions or even space. But why inside the Death Star?

Because they're on-duty.

Most importantly, it fails every time we see it in action. I can't remember a single Stromtrooper who did not immediately fall down and obviously die after being hit by a handgun sized device.

Put on some body armor and get shot. Let's see if you can stay standing through that.

They build Death Stars, but they fail to develop a helmet which would protect it's wearer from a rock. Even a modern army helmet does that. Actually you can get smacked on the head with a rock and would not even fall over.

Is that so?

To make things worse, it even looks like you can't store much stuff in it.

Like what?

What makes it impossible for soldiers of the major power of the galaxy to capture a hand full of people on their own strongest and largest base ever built (before DS II)? Why do they fail so terribly in any scene we see them? We see trained soldiers (trained by the largest military force ever) with military grade armor and weapons losing firefights to civilians which aren't even armored. That's implausible to say the very least.

It sorta would have messed up Vader's plan to let them escape to lead them to the Rebel base if they'd been killed. As Leia put it, "They let us go."

It gets even much, much worse when the 'elite' squad on Endor got it's ass handed by Ewoks.

They were winning until Chewie hijacked an AT-ST and turned it against them.

But I'm curious why a couple dozen soldiers losing a fight against a swarm of miniature bears and a dozen commandoes is so horrible?

The thing is made to annihilate worlds. Okay. So why does the world annihilator have an open hole which leads directly to the core?

It's an exhaust port.

Why is it unprotected?

It isn't. It was shielded and had at least two guns covering it.

In the SD Wiki it's called an exhaust port. For what?

The reactor. Things produce heat. Heat has to be removed, particularly in a space ship.

I guess the designers were full of fail or something, because it's an obvious weak spot.

The designers should have anticipated Luke Skywalker's magic powers?

This time an entire ship can fly in. The very same kind of ship that killed off DS I.

It's rather obviously still under construction.

If these ships are so well armored and have so many and so powerful guns (and are not alone... at least not in Ep VI), how could the A Wing get through?

It was flying right along the surface of the ship before it went out of control.

Shouldn't there be a second bridge for such a case

There is.

..... can you really defeat that thing with cannon balls? It seems like you can.... Actually the AT-ST getting crushed seems even more fragile than a modern tank. Even today's Al Qaida could take this thing out.....

It's a scout transport, a glorified humvee.

Why don't we see any effects caused by the bombs, except for a very short flash, when Han hid his Falcon in that asteroid slug? Shouldn't we see some explosions or craters or anything?

We also don't see anything happen when TIE Fighter lasers hit them, or when they crash against them. Movie flub?

Further, do we know what kind of bombs those were? According to the novel, they were trying to smoke the Falcon out.

He states his position clearly in the Death Star rant. He doesn't like any of the "excuses" that already amply deal with most of these issues he pretends are new ideas. A tiny hole in a moon sized ship, ray shielded and protected by guns, is an inexcusable design flaw that any idiot would have been able to see in two seconds with the other massive complexities of building a moon sized starship. Clearly the Empire is incompetent beyond all hope in that they missed this incredibly small detail in a construction project so massive and so complex that it dwarfs anything we could create a million times over.

Can you imagine if we applied his logic to various military hardware today?

The DSII rant is even more stupid, but he's already stated that he refuses to accept that the station wasn't completed as a valid reason for why ships were able to penetrate inside to the reactor. No doubt there was a certain level overconfidence on the part of the Emperor, but nothing on the level that this kid is trying to peddle.

DoTS, if you're not willing to do the bare minimum of research to answer these debates, then I'd recommend you not post. We don't take kindly to people who ignore the main site. Believe it or not, you're not the first person to make these arguments here.

Something that stood out to me:

They build Death Stars, but they fail t ... fall over.

Conservation of momentum. If you get a 10 pound rock dropped on your head and you're wearing a helmet, you won't get your skull cracked but you'll still get knocked out.

Because they're on-duty.

Well usually you have different uniforms / armor for different tasks. When you're just hitting buttons in some room in the DS, there's no need to wear full body armor. But yes, it'd be quite speculative how duty in such armor feels like and what dresscodes the Empire might have. I just wouldn't like the idea of being unable to scratch my balls without reason

Put on some body armor and get shot. Let's see if you can stay standing through that.

The thing is, I'd have a good chance of surviving. I haven't seen any Stormtrooper getting up or even moving much after being shot. But I must admit that I haven't observed every falling Trooper in the movies closely....

Is that so?

Unless it's large enough and thrown from the side with sufficient force to simply knock you over - yes. The helmets are quite protective against hits.

Like what?

Like water. Ammunition. Grenades. Some kind of first aid equipment. Easy identification of some sort (ID card). A radio. Whatever... There's a reason why you see modern soldiers packed with equipment and backpacks.

But I'm curious why a couple dozen soldiers losing a fight against a swarm of miniature bears and a dozen commandoes is so horrible?

The commandoes aren't really all commandoes (Han Solo? He's a smuggler... and I wouldn't call Leia a trained soldier either). My problem with the loss of this battle is the explicit claim that these specific Stromtroopers are elite soldiers. But it seems like they aren't really.

It isn't. It was shielded and had at least two guns covering it.

I'm talking about a physical blockade. Like thick metal bars. You could still have a hole to open space, just put in a twist, a door that can close, whatever.

The designers should have anticipated Luke Skywalker's magic powers?

They attempted to do it with computers. Actually we only see one computer-aimed shot, which fails. The overall battle, as well as Luke before the battle, suggest that you can hit this thing with an X-Wing, it's computers, the needed proton torpedo and without the force.

It's rather obviously still under construction.

That doesn't keep em from installing a goddamn door or something Imagine Lando's face when the Falcon suddenly faces a door hidden behind the next turn.... The thing is that they left open the same weak spot which destroyed the first DS. THAT is the most inexcusable flaw. Not the fact that the first one had an open vent which can make you see the core with good binoculars (yes, it's stupid too, but can be exucsed much more than the second one).

There is. [a second Executor Bridge]

I thought it crashed on the DS because the bridge was gone, so they lost control? If you have 2 bridges, don't you kind of expect to lose one, so the other one can take over? Or do they control different things and aren't really redundant?

many of the answers are on the main page, and your laziness is insulting.

It's more insulting to think that I've never read it. But I can imagine that I might have not kept all the information stored in my head. You know, happens.... Also the page isn't exactly well done in terms of finding shit quickly, that's a minus when you're dealing with a larger chunk of information, but that's a different topic..

but he's already stated that he refuses to accept that the station wasn't completed as a valid reason for why ships were able to penetrate inside to the reactor

Yes, because it's not a valid reason. It's not like they just started building the core, the damn thing was by large parts already finished. Even when it's completed, except that the last toilet has to be installed, you could still call it 'under construction'..... There is simply no reason why there's no such thing as a door there. The designer of DSII must have known that the DSI core was hit and blew up (it's suggested that it's pretty much the only DS weak spot). So the very first thing I would do when designing a DSII would be to protect the damn core. And not have an open hole there AGAIN, so a rebel fleet can show up and send their just perfectly sized fighters down the vent.

Believe it or not, you're not the first person to make these arguments here.

I guessed so. Believe it or not, some people don't want to spend literally hours to find debates over each argument (one by one) and maybe find the needed information in a 10 page topic.

If you can't accept that people will ask questions about information that isn't really easily accessible, you should establish a 'No new debates' rule, because everything has been said before.... Somewhere.... Somewhen.... My first post even suggested that I did try the search option. And that I read the DS Wiki (partially). This one tells you I even read DS.net. And believe it or not, I surfed the Jedipedia, I even owned some SW technical manual. And some MM model ships. And 2 SW games. And other crappy toys. And DVDs. Don't approach me like I NEVER thought of any of the things I wrote down here or never showed any interest in SW.

Actually I find it quite amusing, how you read 'SW sucks' in my post, while I just claimed that their military seems to be flawed and nothing else Yes, SW sucks. From EP I to EP III.

Conservation of momentum. If you get a 10 pound rock dropped on your head and you're wearing a helmet, you won't get your skull cracked but you'll still get knocked out.

Unfortunately, I couldn't find the Ewok part of the battle of Endor on Youtube, because I wanted to check how large these rocks actually were. I remember them being rather small, but my memory might cheat on me there.

(responded in chronological order, there were posts made while I typed this)

The Vortex Empire wrote:Conservation of momentum. If you get a 10 pound rock dropped on your head and you're wearing a helmet, you won't get your skull cracked but you'll still get knocked out.

Also neck injuries, you could have the greatest shock absorbing helmet in the world (like say an NFL or modern military helmet) and if you get hit hard enough even from a ramming collision from another person, you may very well suffer life altering or even fatal neck injuries.

DotS wrote:Well usually you have different uniforms / armor for different tasks. When you're just hitting buttons in some room in the DS, there's no need to wear full body armor.

Seeing a lot of stormtroopers not fighting or standing guard?

Unless it's large enough and thrown from the side with sufficient force to simply knock you over - yes. The helmets are quite protective against hits.

I find that hard to believe, since it seems to go against simple physical principles like momentum and kinetic energy.

Like water. Ammunition. Grenades. Some kind of first aid equipment. Easy identification of some sort (ID card). A radio. Whatever... There's a reason why you see modern soldiers packed with equipment and backpacks.

Radios are built into the stormtroopers' helmets, as are quite a few other technical doohickeys. The rest can simply be attached to the utility belts stormtroopers have. After all, they come with damn grappling hooks of all things.

Then again, when do we ever see stormtroopers in situations where they'd need to carry around a full kit of gear? Actually, now that I think about it, we see some of the stormtroopers on Tatooine carrying around big backpacks.

The commandoes aren't really all commandoes (Han Solo? He's a smuggler... and I wouldn't call Leia a trained soldier either). My problem with the loss of this battle is the explicit claim that these specific Stromtroopers are elite soldiers. But it seems like they aren't really.

Shit happens. They got mobbed by a horde of intelligent bears and only lost when one of their scout vehicles started shooting at them.

They attempted to do it with computers. Actually we only see one computer-aimed shot, which fails. The overall battle, as well as Luke before the battle, suggest that you can hit this thing with an X-Wing, it's computers, the needed proton torpedo and without the force.

Except they tried that and failed. Wedge said it was "Impossible! Even for a computer!" and Han thought the whole thing was suicide.

That doesn't keep em from installing a goddamn door or something Imagine Lando's face when the Falcon suddenly faces a door hidden behind the next turn.... The thing is that they left open the same weak spot which destroyed the first DS. THAT is the most inexcusable flaw. Not the fact that the first one had an open vent which can make you see the core with good binoculars (yes, it's stupid too, but can be exucsed much more than the second one).

Your complaint is silly. You're scolding them for the Death Star being vulnerable when it's clearly nowhere near complete?

I thought it crashed on the DS because the bridge was gone, so they lost control? If you have 2 bridges, don't you kind of expect to lose one, so the other one can take over? Or do they control different things and aren't really redundant?

How long do you think it was between the bridge getting knocked out at it crashing? Half a minute? A few EU sources go into how they didn't have time to take control from the auxilary bridge.

DotS wrote:Well usually you have different uniforms / armor for different tasks. When you're just hitting buttons in some room in the DS, there's no need to wear full body armor.

You generally want to have your troops wearing armour when guarding things, even if it's on the largest and most powerful ship in the fleet, no, ESPECIALLY when it's the largest and most powerful ship in the fleet.

We also saw Stormtroopers in other duty uniforms, those Black uniformed officers for example.

The thing is, I'd have a good chance of surviving. I haven't seen any Stormtrooper getting up or even moving much after being shot. But I must admit that I haven't observed every falling Trooper in the movies closely....

Who said they didn't survive? you might not want to get back up while the person who just shot you is still right there, how long do you think it would take for you to get back up vs them aiming a few Degrees downwards and putting another shot into you.

Like water. Ammunition. Grenades. Some kind of first aid equipment. Easy identification of some sort (ID card). A radio. Whatever... There's a reason why you see modern soldiers packed with equipment and backpacks.

Radio and other electronics are in the helmet, also Stormtrooper utility belts include (but are not limited to) the following:

* A high-tension wire
* Two grappling hooks
* Four spare blaster power packs
* Three ion flares
* Energy rations
* A spare comlink
* Three water packs
* Two medpacks.
* Two Blast Energy Sinks to protect the trooper's hips and absorb blast energy
* A Thermal detonator (under debate, but that cylinder thing on the back of the belt is sometimes claimed to be a thermal detonator, other times it's part of the suit's power system)
* Combat de-ionizer
* Binders

The commandoes aren't really all commandoes (Han Solo? He's a smuggler... and I wouldn't call Leia a trained soldier either).

Han solo was an Ex Stormtrooper before becoming a smuggler, Leia is the daughter of one of the founders of the Rebellion the other Rebel troops were all Commandos.

My problem with the loss of this battle is the explicit claim that these specific Stromtroopers are elite soldiers. But it seems like they aren't really

Ambushes have a tendency to be rather embarrassing when you are on the receiving end.

I'm talking about a physical blockade. Like thick metal bars. You could still have a hole to open space, just put in a twist, a door that can close, whatever.

Considering we know very little about the nature of the exhaust that may only result in molten bars, damaged shaft or dangerous erosion of the doors etc.

They attempted to do it with computers. Actually we only see one computer-aimed shot, which fails. The overall battle, as well as Luke before the battle, suggest that you can hit this thing with an X-Wing, it's computers, the needed proton torpedo and without the force.

You can, but the odds are extremely thin, they launched the X-wings and Y-wings as an act of desperation more than anything else, a chance no matter how small is better than no chance at all and when you're desperate you start to consider options seriously that would be considered laughably suicidal under other circumstances.

That doesn't keep em from installing a goddamn door or something Imagine Lando's face when the Falcon suddenly faces a door hidden behind the next turn....

Why should they? the entire station was under the protection of a massive shield and once again it was destroyed while under construction, a door would have just caused problems in the long run as they built around it then they have this big door right there for no other reason than to protect it during construction.

Modern ships and buildings are extremely vulnerable during construction, does that make the modern world's military irredeemably incompetent?

I thought it crashed on the DS because the bridge was gone, so they lost control? If you have 2 bridges, don't you kind of expect to lose one, so the other one can take over? Or do they control different things and aren't really redundant?

It takes time for one bridge to take control from the other, it's not instantaneous and the Executor crashed within 20-30 seconds of losing the primary bridge.

Yes, because it's not a valid reason.

It IS a Valid reason I'm afraid.

Unfortunately, I couldn't find the Ewok part of the battle of Endor on Youtube, because I wanted to check how large these rocks actually were. I remember them being rather small, but my memory might cheat on me there.

Should give you an idea of the size.

You know what? I completely forgot that I got the old trilogy on DVD too.... I think I'm gonna watch that Endor battle (and maybe even the rest ). Because I'm pretty damn sure there was something smaller than that rock thrown at em. Else I wouldn't have minded.

Radios are built into the stormtroopers' helmets, as are quite a few other technical doohickeys.

Yes, I forgot about the DS hangar scene with the radio. I wanted to edit the post, but it didn't work. I assume it's some kind of troll or bot protection, preventing a user to edit or immediately post within the first 3 posts.

Your complaint is silly. You're scolding them for the Death Star being vulnerable when it's clearly nowhere near complete?

Doesn't count. The emperor expected a fleet. The DS was said to be... yeah, I can't translate it 1:1, but Palpatine himself says it's fully functional or ready or whatever word he uses in the english version. The question is, would they have sealed the damn entrance if it was finished? If so, why have it in the first place? If not, the DS would still have it's vulnerability even after being completed, right?

The bad protection of the core was, of course, just there to give the rebels a chance of winning. You can't let the Empire win in the last SW movie... But logic fails to explain properly why this entrance was so poorly protected. It's like inserting a glass window (or just a hole in place) into a tank and claiming the vehicle was just destroyed because it was still under construction when that RPG went right through the window and blew the tank to pieces.

We also saw Stormtroopers in other duty uniforms, those Black uniformed officers for example.

I assumed those were gunners or officers or whatever, while the Stormtrooper is the common infantry. I guess I was wrong there.

Radio and other electronics are in the helmet, also Stormtrooper utility belts include (but are not limited to) the following:

Never seen a Trooper carrying so much stuff, but I'll take a closer look next time I see one.

Considering we know very little about the nature of the exhaust that may only result in molten bars, damaged shaft or dangerous erosion of the doors etc.

It shouldn't melt, the walls don't melt either. There are things you can do against erosion. They built a 160km space station, they could think of something... Even if it's just something like a blast door which only closes for let's say 2 minutes when a fighter enters the vent, eliminating many of the mentioned problems. Besides, this universe allows ships to be built which are pretty much invincible and which you can hide INSIDE a SUN. And they can't make a durable protection for that vent?

Modern ships and buildings are extremely vulnerable during construction, does that make the modern world's military irredeemably incompetent?

When they throw it in a battle during construction, claiming it's fully capable of doing what it is supposed to do, before it gets blown to shit, yes.

(No quote means 'idea accepted', before you complain that I only quote half the post)

DotS wrote:You know what? I completely forgot that I got the old trilogy on DVD too.... I think I'm gonna watch that Endor battle (and maybe even the rest ). Because I'm pretty damn sure there was something smaller than that rock thrown at em. Else I wouldn't have minded.

The only "small" ones I recall were in a clump that was dropped from a great height by the hang glider ewok. As the trooper fell over he shot said gliding ewok, while not even apparently looking at it.

I wanted to edit the post, but it didn't work. I assume it's some kind of troll or bot protection, preventing a user to edit or immediately post within the first 3 posts.

It kicks in a while after you make a post, you can not edit that post later. Some less than honest people have a tendency to change a post retroactively to try and lend credence to claims that they never said something that they did.

I often edit posts quite a bit, but that's to fix grammar and punctuation which isn't my strong suit.

Doesn't count. The emperor expected a fleet. The DS was said to be...

"Fully armed and operational" But that was for the main gun, also in order to make it a convincingly tempting target for the Rebels, there had to be a token level of vulnerability.
Always plant a Lie inside the truth and all that.

Never seen a Trooper carrying so much stuff, but I'll take a closer look next time I see one

Most of it is extremely small, so we don't see much in the small pockets, but we did see luke pull out the Grappling hook and wire since he kept the utility belt and E-11 after they ditched the armour. Also the Comlinks Threepio and Luke used were from Han and Luke's utility belts.

this universe allows ships to be built which are pretty much invincible and which you can hide INSIDE a SUN. And they can't make a durable protection for that vent?

My point is that we know far too little about the nature of the exhaust to really assess whether or not it was truly necessary.

When they throw it in a battle during construction, claiming it's fully capable of doing what it is supposed to do, before it gets blown to shit, yes.

Again if there wasn't a token vulnerability the Rebels might have known it was a trap beforehand, or might not have taken the bait so readily.

When setting bait for a trap you have to make it look as tempting as possible, and that often involves actual risk.

DotS wrote: Yes, because it's not a valid reason. It's not like they just started building the core, the damn thing was by large parts already finished. Even when it's completed, except that the last toilet has to be installed, you could still call it 'under construction'..... There is simply no reason why there's no such thing as a door there. The designer of DSII must have known that the DSI core was hit and blew up (it's suggested that it's pretty much the only DS weak spot). So the very first thing I would do when designing a DSII would be to protect the damn core. And not have an open hole there AGAIN, so a rebel fleet can show up and send their just perfectly sized fighters down the vent.

I think what you're ascribing to a "stupid military" is actually a result of stupid, or at least overconfident, leadership, aka Palpatine. No one is under any illusions (except you) that the DSII was completed as it was designed to be. At the beginning of the film you have the Moff talking about the Emperor asking the impossible, and clearly that was JUST to meet Palpatine's deadline for the trap he wanted to set.

It's not the designers fault if the boss decides to use his uncompleted new toy to set a trap for his hated enemies when it isn't appropriate. And given the push to have just the main systems online, the engineers clearly didn't have time to put a huge wall of doom in every hole in the station. But you try saying "no, sorry" to the Emperor.

I guessed so. Believe it or not, some people don't want to spend literally hours to find debates over each argument (one by one) and maybe find the needed information in a 10 page topic.

Personally, I would have asked questions about the various issues you have trouble with, rather than coming out of the gate saying that the Imperials are incompetent and that you won't accept certain "excuses" otherwise.

Actually I find it quite amusing, how you read 'SW sucks' in my post, while I just claimed that their military seems to be flawed and nothing else Yes, SW sucks. From EP I to EP III.

Don't fucking accuse me of something I didn't say. If you're too lazy to read the thread you fucking created and put the right accusations with the right quotes, then fuck you.

CaptJodan wrote:Don't fucking accuse me of something I didn't say. If you're too lazy to read the thread you fucking created and put the right accusations with the right quotes, then fuck you.

You mean stuff like this?

No one is under any illusions (except you) that the DSII was completed as it was designed to be

Yeah, you get 5 internets sent via mail if you show me where I wrote that. My point is that the station was complete enough to have a door or whatever installed there to make fighter vs core impossible.

I made a quotation error, while you seem to read whatever you want out of my text. So I kindly suggest that you go fuck yourself too.

in order to make it a convincingly tempting target for the Rebels, there had to be a token level of vulnerability.

So you can't install a door which simply isn't on the plans which the rebels have? Like, a hidden door halfway through the vent, which they notice 2 seconds before they smash their ships against it? Or, let's say, a very sharp turn which was 'corrected' on the rebel plans? Did they really give em the CORRECT plans? I think they didn't, because afaik they have all their info on the DSII from their plans. Which must include the (fake) info that it's not operational yet.

Personally, I would have asked questions about the various issues you have trouble with, rather than coming out of the gate saying that the Imperials are incompetent and that you won't accept certain "excuses" otherwise.

There's a bunch of WHYs in my first post, actually most questions start with a WHY. When a sentence starts with WHY, it's usually a question. Plus the fact, that they lost the battles while they got more and more powerful equipment and more and better trained troops than the rebels. Smells like incompetence. It wasn't an accident, it wasn't unlucky. It was a calculated risk without any backup plans and it proved to be fatal. Maybe Palpatine should have asked someone who is actually good at strategic planning. Was he responsible for the mess on Endor too? And maybe for the DSII vent (in other words, for everything that went wrong)?

They finished large parts of the hull. When looking at that station, I'd say they build from the inside out. So they have time for these large hull parts and the structures below, but not for the critical vent which ended in a 5 quadrillion credit fireworks the last time it was poorly protected...

So you can't install a door which simply isn't on the plans which the rebels have? Like, a hidden door halfway through the vent, which they notice 2 seconds before they smash their ships against it? Or, let's say, a very sharp turn which was 'corrected' on the rebel plans? Did they really give em the CORRECT plans? I think they didn't, because afaik they have all their info on the DSII from their plans. Which must include the (fake) info that it's not operational yet.

It is never stated that the rebels have the plans for DSII all they really knew was it wasn't complete, the main weapon isn't operational, and the Emperor will be on board. And no you really can't just add a random door to a set design with out having an effect on the rest of the station. First of all where would they put said door so that A: it would be out of the way of the current construction and the currently active systems aboard the station and B: in the way of potential enemy fighters that are not suppose to make it this far anyway.

DotS wrote:

CaptJodan wrote:Don't fucking accuse me of something I didn't say. If you're too lazy to read the thread you fucking created and put the right accusations with the right quotes, then fuck you.

You mean stuff like this?

No one is under any illusions (except you) that the DSII was completed as it was designed to be

Yeah, you get 5 internets sent via mail if you show me where I wrote that. My point is that the station was complete enough to have a door or whatever installed there to make fighter vs core impossible.

'A' door? How about SCORES of them what with the station only being 60% complete. Did you actually WATCH the movie? Yeah, that TOTALLY wouldn't have tipped off the Alliance that this was a trap. I mean you routinely put in blast doors that serve absolutely no purpose once construction is complete in a project BARELY MORE THAN HALF DONE just because you feel like it. There ALSO totally wasn't a shield in the way that would have meant the rebel fighters never could've gotten there in the first place. Oh wait.

in order to make it a convincingly tempting target for the Rebels, there had to be a token level of vulnerability.

So you can't install a door which simply isn't on the plans which the rebels have? Like, a hidden door halfway through the vent, which they notice 2 seconds before they smash their ships against it? Or, let's say, a very sharp turn which was 'corrected' on the rebel plans? Did they really give em the CORRECT plans? I think they didn't, because afaik they have all their info on the DSII from their plans. Which must include the (fake) info that it's not operational yet.

Yeah. A safety feature that serves NO PURPOSE WHATSOEVER once the station is finished is absolutely something you want to install when the ambush you're setting up assumes the Alliance can't get close to the station ANYWAY thanks to the shield being in the way.

Personally, I would have asked questions about the various issues you have trouble with, rather than coming out of the gate saying that the Imperials are incompetent and that you won't accept certain "excuses" otherwise.

There's a bunch of WHYs in my first post, actually most questions start with a WHY. When a sentence starts with WHY, it's usually a question.

And one that's been answered 19 million times before. While the search function leaves something to be desired you flat out admitted you couldn't be arsed to use it.

Plus the fact, that they lost the battles while they got more and more powerful equipment and more and better trained troops than the rebels.

As evidenced by? The Alliance won by the will of the Force at Yavin, and likely would have been CURBSTOMPED if not for Tarkin's arrogance anyway. They STILL would have won hadn't it been for a certain youngish Jedi and a smuggler everybody at the time assumed to be a couple thousand lightyears away. The Empire DID win at Hoth. The Alliance weren't shown to have a single capital ship prior to the battle of Endor, where they were getting slaughtered DESPITE the Imperial naval forces having been ordered NOT to engage them directly.

Smells like incompetence. It wasn't an accident, it wasn't unlucky.

Yes it was.

It was a calculated risk without any backup plans and it proved to be fatal.

Yeah. I mean there was totally not an Imperial Sector Fleet present that could eat the Alliance forces for breakfast, a Death Star with a fully functional superlaser which DID, I mean Darth Vader turning on the Emperor was absolutely something they should have counted on.

They finished large parts of the hull. When looking at that station, I'd say they build from the inside out. So they have time for these large hull parts and the structures below, but not for the critical vent which ended in a 5 quadrillion credit fireworks the last time it was poorly protected...

Get back to me when you actually know what you're talking about. Vital parts of a project under construction being vulnerable WHILE it is under construction is INEVITABLE, especially when you are trying to use it as a lure due to it BEING under construction.

It is never stated that the rebels have the plans for DSII

They must have had some plans. You don't find a 20m wide hole on a 160km sphere by accident, plus knowing it goes straight to the reactor without any obstacles inside.

First of all where would they put said door so that A: it would be out of the way of the current construction

Usually you draw your plans before your shit is halfway finished. This question doesn't even make sense. It's like asking how to install an elevator in a skyscraper which doesn't have one. The question is not how to install it afterwards, the question is why it wasn't planned at all.

There ALSO totally wasn't a shield in the way that would have meant the rebel fighters never could've gotten there in the first place. Oh wait.

I know it's a hard word... Redundancy.... It means that if one part of a system fails, another one can take over. It's common whereever important shit is done which mustn't be interrupted. You might have heard of what they call a harddisk RAID, just to give an example. Ever wondered why an elevator is attached to so many steel cables, while half of them would be sufficient? Or why you have a blast door in front of your DSII core.........oh.......

DotS wrote:

It is never stated that the rebels have the plans for DSII

They must have had some plans. You don't find a 20m wide hole on a 160km sphere by accident, plus knowing it goes straight to the reactor without any obstacles inside.

Except when there are massive sections of said sphere not completed.

First of all where would they put said door so that A: it would be out of the way of the current construction

Usually you draw your plans before your shit is halfway finished. This question doesn't even make sense. It's like asking how to install an elevator in a skyscraper which doesn't have one. The question is not how to install it afterwards, the question is why it wasn't planned at all.

Perhaps the designers didn't know that it was a meant to be a trap, think of the works that would take and what that does for your chances of a leak. He had his most loyal forces there for that reason.

There ALSO totally wasn't a shield in the way that would have meant the rebel fighters never could've gotten there in the first place. Oh wait.

I know it's a hard word... Redundancy.... It means that if one part of a system fails, another one can take over. It's common whereever important shit is done which mustn't be interrupted. You might have heard of what they call a harddisk RAID, just to give an example. Ever wondered why an elevator is attached to so many steel cables, while half of them would be sufficient? Or why you have a blast door in front of your DSII core.........oh.......

Except that without that you just shoot into the gaping woulds on the thing with a Mon Cal or, worse case, ram a full capital ship right down into an open section firing at full power all the way down. I'm sure blast doors will work against that. You're forgetting that fly fighters in was the first plan and that once their the rebels would do nearly anything to kill that station.

Now I wanted to do an edit cause I hit the wrong button before, but doesn't work anymore. So that previous post isn't really finished.... Here's the rest:

As evidenced by? The Alliance won by the will of the Force at Yavin, and likely would have been CURBSTOMPED if not for Tarkin's arrogance anyway. They STILL would have won hadn't it been for a certain youngish Jedi and a smuggler everybody at the time assumed to be a couple thousand lightyears away. The Empire DID win at Hoth.

I'm talking about the battle of Endor. With battleS I mean the one in space and the one on Endor itself, they lost both.

Vital parts of a project under construction being vulnerable WHILE it is under construction is INEVITABLE

Answer a simple question: What would have happened if there was said blast door in place, some 20km below the surface behind a turn, and the Falcon just smashed against it?

We both know the answer. And we (hopefully) both know, that if a single door (which you can hide) largely improves the station's security, eliminating the only weak spot the rebels know about (without them knowing you've eliminated it), you will have a door there as soon as you started building that vent. ESPECIALLY when half your station is already finished, so the core is not exposed to any other danger, than a fighter coming through the vent... I guess if the rebels could just have 'bombed' a hole in the DSII under construction part, which goes down to the core, they would have done it. So we can assume they couldn't do that, by no means. But what can happen is that the shield goes down for whatever reason. And then you better make sure you have something in place that prevents people to go the simplest and only way to your only weak spot and blow it up.

Now back to Norade:

Except when there are massive sections of said sphere not completed.

Uncompleted sphere still doesn't show you instantly that there's a hole going down to the reactor at this and that place I always thought the whole Lando / Falcon stuff was planned before the battle. Lando even knew that there's a way back to the surface once he was inside. So either this thing isn't at all shielded against sensors and the rebels can pretty easily scan through massive DSII parts. Or they have seen plans.

Except that without that you just shoot into the gaping woulds on the thing with a Mon Cal or, worse case, ram a full capital ship right down into an open section firing at full power all the way down. I'm sure blast doors will work against that.

The vent doesn't just go straight to the core, it has turns in it. Also, there are occasions where it's almost completely blocked by some pipes and other stuff. All I say is 'where the fuck is my satellite dish'... Imagine a thick metal bar in the middle there. You'd have 2x 1/2 Falcons not going much farther towards the core.

Yeah, those are all pretty much established points.

The stormtroopers really should be more terrifying. The soldiers from the anime Jin-Roh did the job. Completely outclassed the rebels in their story, seemingly unstoppable. Only drawback is our heroes couldn't survive tangling with stormtroopers that badass and effective.



There's no justification for the Death Star's exhaust port flaw. Lucas wanted to remake the Dam Busters and he invented a flaw that would justify the trench run. No, it doesn't make sense and it never will. Same goes with figuring out this fatal flaw in a few hours while the Imperials spent decades building the thing without realizing how bad it was.

All of your stormtrooper flaws pretty much fall under that category. They're easily-killed mooks because that's what the script called for. But if you think about it, the Empire has to have military flaws or else the Rebel Alliance could not win. The Empire had to make mistakes. The trick is making those mistakes plausible and less mook-like.

You can also question the wisdom of shielding a battlestation from a base on a planet. Why not put the generators in orbit and ring the whole site with turbo-laser batteries? Lucas wanted a ground battle and wanted wookies, later changed to ewoks. The needs of the fictional technologies did not drive the plot, the plot dictated how the fictional technology would be used, often inexplicably.

DotS wrote:

As evidenced by? The Alliance won by the will of the Force at Yavin, and likely would have been CURBSTOMPED if not for Tarkin's arrogance anyway. They STILL would have won hadn't it been for a certain youngish Jedi and a smuggler everybody at the time assumed to be a couple thousand lightyears away. The Empire DID win at Hoth.

I'm talking about the battle of Endor. With battleS I mean the one in space and the one on Endor itself, they lost both.

Yes, they lost the one in space after both command vessels were destroyed and an insubordinate office gave a retreat order once the Emperor's battle meditation was broken by his death,

On the ground they were taken by total surprise and had the most power vehicle in the immediate area turned against them after all others were destroyed. Not many forces can handle that.

Vital parts of a project under construction being vulnerable WHILE it is under construction is INEVITABLE

Answer a simple question: What would have happened if there was said blast door in place, some 20km below the surface behind a turn, and the Falcon just smashed against it?

They would have chosen a different route given that they would have needed to scan the damn thing. Now, what would have happened if the rebels heard, from an engineer adding blast doors to an unfinished battle station that nobody else knows about, that it was a trap? That's the bigger risk.

We both know the answer. And we (hopefully) both know, that if a single door (which you can hide) largely improves the station's security, eliminating the only weak spot the rebels know about (without them knowing you've eliminated it), you will have a door there as soon as you started building that vent. ESPECIALLY when half your station is already finished, so the core is not exposed to any other danger, than a fighter coming through the vent... I guess if the rebels could just have 'bombed' a hole in the DSII under construction part, which goes down to the core, they would have done it. So we can assume they couldn't do that, by no means. But what can happen is that the shield goes down for whatever reason. And then you better make sure you have something in place that prevents people to go the simplest and only way to your only weak spot and blow it up.

A) You assume that was the only route.

B) The risk of a spy saying hey, why are we suddenly building this, that doesn't make sense and telling somebody.

C) No, we assume that it was easier to fly in seeing as there was an open hole. Also the Spies would have told that that in the current state the station has holes reaching the core. If that wasn't the case you go to plan be.

Except when there are massive sections of said sphere not completed.

Uncompleted sphere still doesn't show you instantly that there's a hole going down to the reactor at this and that place I always thought the whole Lando / Falcon stuff was planned before the battle. Lando even knew that there's a way back to the surface once he was inside. So either this thing isn't at all shielded against sensors and the rebels can pretty easily scan through massive DSII parts. Or they have seen plans.

No, your spies do that you retarded too lazy to search sack off monkey ass.

Except that without that you just shoot into the gaping woulds on the thing with a Mon Cal or, worse case, ram a full capital ship right down into an open section firing at full power all the way down. I'm sure blast doors will work against that.

The vent doesn't just go straight to the core, it has turns in it. Also, there are occasions where it's almost completely blocked by some pipes and other stuff. All I say is 'where the fuck is my satellite dish'... Imagine a thick metal bar in the middle there. You'd have 2x 1/2 Falcons not going much farther towards the core.

So, you fire multi-TT blasts at the exposed unshielded core until it explodes then even if it means sacrificing a capital ship to do so.

jollyreaper wrote:Yeah, those are all pretty much established points.

The stormtroopers really should be more terrifying. The soldiers from the anime Jin-Roh did the job. Completely outclassed the rebels in their story, seemingly unstoppable. Only drawback is our heroes couldn't survive tangling with stormtroopers that badass and effective.

Except that as you increase the ability of the enemy you do the same to that of the heroes as well, but I guess retards don't think before they type.

There's no justification for the Death Star's exhaust port flaw. Lucas wanted to remake the Dam Busters and he invented a flaw that would justify the trench run. No, it doesn't make sense and it never will. Same goes with figuring out this fatal flaw in a few hours while the Imperials spent decades building the thing without realizing how bad it was.

How about the fact that the station needed to vent waste heat and gases... That and they never even considered an attack by ships so small to be a threat. Vader only had any idea, because of the force.

All of your stormtrooper flaws pretty much fall under that category. They're easily-killed mooks because that's what the script called for. But if you think about it, the Empire has to have military flaws or else the Rebel Alliance could not win. The Empire had to make mistakes. The trick is making those mistakes plausible and less mook-like.

Like them not being able to aim as claimed by idioys of course ignoring all the times when they can and do so very effectively? Or them wearing armor that is bright white because they have no need to hide? Yeah, really fatal flaws

You can also question the wisdom of shielding a battlestation from a base on a planet. Why not put the generators in orbit and ring the whole site with turbo-laser batteries? Lucas wanted a ground battle and wanted wookies, later changed to ewoks. The needs of the fictional technologies did not drive the plot, the plot dictated how the fictional technology would be used, often inexplicably.

Perhapes another shielding station would have needed to be the size of the Death Star so they were forced to use a planet?

DotS wrote: You mean stuff like this?

No one is under any illusions (except you) that the DSII was completed as it was designed to be

Yeah, you get 5 internets sent via mail if you show me where I wrote that.

Well, since I don't want 5 internets in my mail, whatever that means, I'll forgo it. But you implied the station was complete when rambling on about Palpatine's "full armed and operational" status.

My point is that the station was complete enough to have a door or whatever installed there to make fighter vs core impossible.

When any idiot can see it's not but a mere 60-70% complete just by looking at it.

Your plan revolves around putting up barriers in multiple entry points to the Death Star that they would then have to remove after the battle was over, all while the station was already being protected by a planetary shield. Not surprisingly, I see you conveniently ignored the entire point that getting the station even operational enough for Palpatine's plan was near impossible, made possible only by Moff Whatever's "redouble our efforts". Your brilliant strategy not only makes no sense, there was probably also no time to implement it. But I'm sure that's the fault of the engineers for not budgeting time for the whims of the Emperor. Oh wait, I forgot, the Emperor is the one who gives them their time table.

It wasn't an accident, it wasn't unlucky.

Are you kidding? Luck is always involved in war. Nevermind the influence of the Force itself. There's certainly ample evidence that the Empire might still have been victorious had the fleet at Endor not turned tail at ran or been routed after the Emperor's death. As for the DSII, well....

It was a calculated risk without any backup plans and it proved to be fatal. Maybe Palpatine should have asked someone who is actually good at strategic planning. Was he responsible for the mess on Endor too? And maybe for the DSII vent (in other words, for everything that went wrong)?

Yes, I would put a lot more of the responsibility of the failure on Palpatine than on the engineers.

They finished large parts of the hull. When looking at that station, I'd say they build from the inside out.

This would imply, or at least suggest that the missing pieces would be uniform throughout. It wasn't. The Death Star superlaser area was pretty much completed, but you had massive gaps in the "southern hemisphere" as well as the whole "east" side (your picture may vary). Doesn't look uniform to me.

So they have time for these large hull parts and the structures below, but not for the critical vent which ended in a 5 quadrillion credit fireworks the last time it was poorly protected...

Really? How much time does it take to wall up all the entrances? How much time did they have, do you think, when they were already scrambling to finish in time? Did you watch this movie?

*sigh*

Armor-

1)If you are designing armor to protect against blaster fire, why would it automatically be armor good enough for kinetic weapons? We don't know how it works, probably disperses energy across the plate or something, but that doesn't translate into being rock proof, or spear proof, it is supposed to be blaster proof.

2)It doesn't need to be blaster proof either, perhaps being blaster proof is impossible for man sized armor. Perhaps they just have SW version of flak jackets, something designed to lessen the effect of blaster fire, to make a hit more survivable. In which case, making armor that gives you a better chance of survival doesn't necessarily mean rock proof, or spear proof.

3)Why is it white and why do they wear it all the time? Why not? It is apparently their uniform. When on duty, they wear it. We have yet to see, in a movie, the Stormtrooper barracks, we have no idea what the wear and do not wear on their time off. But they wear it because they are symbols of Imperial strength, and white is probably a way to both make it obvious who they are and what they represent and to erase individuality, they are part of the Imperial machine.

Ground battle of Endor

1)The Ewoks had months, years, to scout out and put into place a plan to attack the Imperials. The Ewoks knew where the back door was, knew where the Imperial patrols would likely be, and placed tactical assets there.

2)Even then, with both strategic and tactical surprise on their side, the Imperials quickly recovered from it and were crushing the Ewoks who were by that time in full retreat. They started out in one spot and pushed the enemy out and gained room to maneuver. They out maneuvered their enemy and brought their superior firepower to bear.

3)It took the capture of, and utilization of one of those heavy gun platforms (realitive to the battle) against their own forces to stop the Imperial advance. Even then, elements of the Imperial forces still stayed on mission and pinned down enemy leadership elements at the back door.



The Deathstar trench run was pretty much a plot device, but even then, a huge piece of machinery will still need exhaust ports and intakes and other pieces of equipment that will be vulnerable. Bridges, radio antennae, exhaust ports, and other equivalent stuck out of battle ships on our world, it wasn't just one big chunk of metal. The rebels went after the only exposed and vulnerable thing they could.

after both command vessels were destroyed

On the ground they were taken by total surprise and had the most power vehicle in the immediate area turned against them after all others were destroyed.

Strategic and tactical fail in both cases. If you have an entire galaxy to pick your equipment, training methods and elite from, I'd expect them to do better than that.

So, you fire multi-TT blasts at the exposed unshielded core until it explodes then even if it means sacrificing a capital ship to do so.

If the door or bar is 20km inside the DS behind a turn, I doubt you could reach it even if you ram the Home One right into the vent.

No, your spies do that you retarded too lazy to search sack off monkey ass.

Well it doesn't matter if it were plans or if a spy told them. I doubt that if you really want to, you would not be able to install a door or metal bar deep inside some vent secretly.

Hey asshole, I got news: Your spies can all go fuck themselves if I have 10 guys work on this, supervised 24/7 and turn em into space junk once they're finished. Also, I'm sure there's no way of telling if somebody can be trusted and is loyal or not. It's not like the SW universe has advanced technology and should have something trivial like a better lie detection method. Which you don't even need if you kill them off after the work is done. And it is done quickly if you have Vader come by once a day or so.

If they have so many spies everywhere that they can't even install a fucking metal bar, I really wonder how the shitty thing could actually fire in the first place, without having the 100 spies on the station do some sabotage during the battle. Or prior to the battle....

Or them wearing armor that is bright white because they have no need to hide?

That's the stupidest piece of bullshit I have ever read. A soldier thrown into battle is just a dumbass if he really goes there in a white suit. There are situations and functions where a well visible armor or uniform makes sense. And that's NOT the battlefield. Except, of course, you really find stupid assholes which love to get killed easily.

Perhapes another shielding station would have needed to be the size of the Death Star so they were forced to use a planet?

Since when do planets create shields? It's still machinery doing that. And it doesn't look like an over 160km large structure to me. Or any structure at all that couldn't be put inside a ship. It's not like there are no 20km large ships flying around.....

Your plan revolves around putting up barriers in multiple entry points to the Death Star that they would then have to remove after the battle was over, all while the station was already being protected by a planetary shield. Not surprisingly, I see you conveniently ignored the entire point that getting the station even operational enough for Palpatine's plan was near impossible, made possible only by Moff Whatever's "redouble our efforts". Your brilliant strategy not only makes no sense, there was probably also no time to implement it. But I'm sure that's the fault of the engineers for not budgeting time for the whims of the Emperor. Oh wait, I forgot, the Emperor is the one who gives them their time table.

They could as well leave the barrier in place. Imagine they just leave the door open after that....

You conveniently ignore the fact that they could as well have just cancelled 500m² of the outer hull to have the men for the barrier and nobody would notice. Also, I can't imagine it would take so damn long and so many people to install a 'bar'. A bar is just as fine as a door, it blocks ships from getting in.

This would imply, or at least suggest that the missing pieces would be uniform throughout. It wasn't. The Death Star superlaser area was pretty much completed, but you had massive gaps in the "southern hemisphere" as well as the whole "east" side (your picture may vary). Doesn't look uniform to me.

Of course the superlaser area is finished, because it is critical and had to be finished quickly, it was their priority. And that's imo why it has these gaps all over the place where the superlaser isn't.

jollyreaper wrote:There's no justification for the Death Star's exhaust port flaw. Lucas wanted to remake the Dam Busters and he invented a flaw that would justify the trench run. No, it doesn't make sense and it never will. Same goes with figuring out this fatal flaw in a few hours while the Imperials spent decades building the thing without realizing how bad it was.

Does it really matter? At no point does the implausability of this design flaw actually detract from the drama in the film. These movies are basically modern mythology; the Death Star exhaust port is a classic "Achilles' heel" motif. Regardless, the exhaust port problem isn't necessarily so unbelievable. The vulnerability exploited by the Rebels was an edge-case that the Imperial engineers simply never considered. This sort of thing happens all the time in real life. For example, corporate giants like IBM and Microsoft have invested millions of dollars into designing incredibly complex software systems, only to have them exploited by some lone hacker who discovered a buffer he could overflow.