Is Luke Skywalker a pansy?

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2003-03-05 03:16pm

In the EU at least, Luke Skywalker's abilities with the force range from pitiful to Master. Where does he really stand? Sometimes it seems like he's no better than Padawan learner (look at Kevin J. Anderson here), and other times he could probably take on an entire fleet or army all by himself. What gives?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-03-05 03:26pm

Its hard to write for a character like Luke because he has made his hero's journey so essentially he is a complete person now, hard to write from that standpoint. (My general problem with the EU is that it sort of invalidates everything these characters went through for instance Palpatine coming back in the EU makes Anakin's sacrifice unneccessary and that is tragic.) As to power levels, no one really knew how powerful a master could be, no one really had a clue until the Prequel era movies starting coming out and we see the Jedi in their prime. So I can't blame the writers for having these widely varying power levels.

Also part of it I think is just lazy writing. Its hard to come up with a good challenge that could kill a Jedi master, so what does the lazy writer do? he powers down the Jedi Master instead of trying to work within the framework of the powers available to them.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-03-05 03:41pm

Stravo wrote:Also part of it I think is just lazy writing. Its hard to come up with a good challenge that could kill a Jedi master, so what does the lazy writer do? he powers down the Jedi Master instead of trying to work within the framework of the powers available to them.

That's the hallmark of bad writing. My first rule is to use what you have and think of what the characters would logically do in a given situation, not make them do something that is incomprehensible but convenient for the plot. If what the characters would logically do lets them easily solve the situation, your plot probably isn't very good.

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-03-05 05:38pm

The title of Jedi master is bestowed on people with enoungh experience in the force and not by sheer power and degrees of control, though those do hold some influence on who will be choosen.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-03-05 05:46pm

Stravo wrote:My general problem with the EU is that it sort of invalidates everything these characters went through for instance Palpatine coming back in the EU makes Anakin's sacrifice unneccessary and that is tragic.

Why do canon purists think this?

Did they think the Empire rolled over immediately after Endor?

The early scripts had a lot of themes and plot points that are reflected in Dark Empire. George Lucas himself loved it and corroborated with Vietch later on his Knights of the Old Republic project.

I agree with Stravo that the "crisis of the week" is stupid.

They should created a few generalized storylines for our heroes to go through, a couple well-planned well written trilogies and some books about the individual travels of some of the heroes: Luke on his quest to rebuild the Jedi and to find companionship, Leia and Han helping to rebuild a Republic of old and begin a family, Lando in some new scheme and adventure on the Outer Rim, etc.

Other than that they should not have over-abused the post-ROTJ period.

More stories should've been set in the Ancient period and maybe some in the future will visit the SW galaxy a thousand years in the future.

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2003-03-05 06:27pm

Just let Timothy Zahn write them all?

Darth Balls · Post by **Darth Balls** » 2003-03-05 06:38pm

In the NJO Luke is almost as big a pussy as Jacen.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-03-05 06:43pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Stravo wrote:My general problem with the EU is that it sort of invalidates everything these characters went through for instance Palpatine coming back in the EU makes Anakin's sacrifice unneccessary and that is tragic.
Why do canon purists think this?

Did they think the Empire rolled over immediately after Endor?

The early scripts had a lot of themes and plot points that are reflected in Dark Empire. George Lucas himself loved it and corroborated with Vietch later on his Knights of the Old Republic project.

Its not about the empire dying Illuminatus, I object to Palpatine coming back. Personally the Empire's slow gradual fall from power would have made a FAR better storyline than this Vong stuff I've read about or the "super secret weapon the Empire had hidden away" plotline that made me stop reading the EU.

It's about what the entire story was about, the rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker. He slew the Emperor, sacrificing his life to bring balance to the force.....bzzztttt Wrong, see Palpatine is back in a clone body (WTF?!? Is this a comic book now? I've seen villains comeback with more style than this in the X-Men.)

WHY then did Anakin risk his life? Seriously Illuminatus, did Anakin's sacrifice mean ANYTHING at that point? Oh but get this...after Luke defeats him in Dark Empire I HE COMES BACK. WTF?!?! You know you've run dry of ideas if the best villain you can scare up is the one you killed TWICE already.

Anakin's sacrifice is the central key point of BOTH trilogies, he sacrifices himself to become Darth Vader and restore order to the galaxy and takes the final plunge and is saved by his son, redeemed by the love of a child he never really knew....then it gets all SHAT on by GL and his "wonderful" ideas. Greedo shooting first is merely a symptom of what is to come.

So in closing what I am saying is that by all means, let the Empire fight on for decades if you want, the same people that love to pull out 25,000 ISD's and QUINTILLIONS of troops are seriously going to think that a rebel alliance who's main fleet strength was about 30 Capital ships took over the galaxy in the span of 5 years?! No, thats called lazy writing.

What bugs the purists? RESPECT the journey of the hero. RESPECT the fact that Anakin gave EVRYTHING including his soul to save the galaxy and the man he slew can come back to line GL's pockets for TWO more tries before he finally dies like a bad dream??? How about investing time and creative energy in creating a new villain that doesn't make Anakin's sacrifice and Luke's journey of discovery nest to useless. We hate the EU contrivances because it sullies a truly perfect hero journey tale with bullshit.

I agree with Stravo that the "crisis of the week" is stupid.

You see Illuminatus, damn you, agreeing with me on general points yet fighting with me on nitty gritty details. .

.

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2003-03-05 06:54pm

Yikes Stravo,

Very well said. But could you not also think that Anakin brought balance to the Force by killing all the old Jedi and fathering the new? I think his sacrfice at the end of ROTJ was not so much about the balance, the Force WILL be balanced, but his redemption.

P.S. Damn you, I've been waiting all week for Starcrossed!!

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-03-05 07:29pm

Stravo wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote: I agree with Stravo that the "crisis of the week" is stupid.

You see Illuminatus, damn you, agreeing with me on general points yet fighting with me on nitty gritty details. .

Isn't it odd how that happens?

Burak Gazan · Post by **Burak Gazan** » 2003-03-05 08:18pm

Part of the problem with NJO-Luke is that Del Rey wanted to kill him off in the very first book (VP) Since they were stopped from doing that, they had to make up on the fly what his role was in the storyline.
This has made him appear to be indecisive (at best) in some cases, a wuss in others

NJO-Luke is not the Luke who stood up to Palpatine and rejected the Dark Side......

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2003-03-05 09:26pm

I agree wholeheartedly with Stravo. The beautiful climax that is the Emperor's Throne Room scenes in ROJ is carelessly pissed on by Dark Empire (which, frustratingly enough, was otherwise good). And of course it's not only Dark Empire, but it's one of the prime offenders.

I personally would have loved for them to have elaborated about the slowly dying Empire. Have Palpatine II (not his clone, but someone else...son, friend, whatever) try to keep the Empire together, and have him slowly and incompetently fail. And don't give me that Trioculus bullshit.

Luckily, the EU doesn't preclude the slow death of the Empire, but it certainly didn't focus on it enough.

Also, what the EU needs is good new characters. Too much of the EU focuses on the "magnificent seven" from the OT, reiterating tired themes for them, and often introducing stupid crap for them. Too few of the new EU characters are actually interesting, to the point that the OT (and even PT) characters are.

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2003-03-06 01:11pm

Stravo Wrote

So in closing what I am saying is that by all means, let the Empire fight on for decades if you want, the same people that love to pull out 25,000 ISD's and QUINTILLIONS of troops are seriously going to think that a rebel alliance who's main fleet strength was about 30 Capital ships took over the galaxy in the span of 5 years?! No, thats called lazy writing.

The War against the Empire was not won until peace was called in VOTF in the HOTD! Yes the war was pretty much won by then anyway, but the Empire was not defeated in 5 years, they were in dissmay. the one man who had kept the Moffs, etc in line was gone and there was huge uprisings, look at the end of ROTJ SE what, IMHO was Coruscant, they were pulling down a statue of Palpatine, I'm not saying that would be it for the Empire after 5 years, but it wouldn't last for 25 years!

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2003-03-07 01:02am

Dorsk 81 wrote:Stravo Wrote
So in closing what I am saying is that by all means, let the Empire fight on for decades if you want, the same people that love to pull out 25,000 ISD's and QUINTILLIONS of troops are seriously going to think that a rebel alliance who's main fleet strength was about 30 Capital ships took over the galaxy in the span of 5 years?! No, thats called lazy writing.
The War against the Empire was not won until peace was called in VOTF in the HOTD! Yes the war was pretty much won by then anyway, but the Empire was not defeated in 5 years, they were in dissmay. the one man who had kept the Moffs, etc in line was gone and there was huge uprisings, look at the end of ROTJ SE what, IMHO was Coruscant, they were pulling down a statue of Palpatine, I'm not saying that would be it for the Empire after 5 years, but it wouldn't last for 25 years!

The Empire destroyed itself. Internal-squabbling, wasted resources, unprotected/unpacified sectors joining the rebellion in droves perhaps. No fighting spirit in the Imperial troops.

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2003-03-07 07:23am

Exactly. We see in Darksaber (IIRC) that Admiral Daala has to kill off the other squabling Imperials, who kept attacking each other and giving themselves more and more extravagent titles. With this kind of disaray in the governing body, if you can call it that, it's no wonder the Empire self destructed.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-03-07 09:25am

Dorsk 81 wrote:Exactly. We see in Darksaber (IIRC) that Admiral Daala has to kill off the other squabling Imperials, who kept attacking each other and giving themselves more and more extravagent titles. With this kind of disaray in the governing body, if you can call it that, it's no wonder the Empire self destructed.

Didn't the presence of an all-governing Emperor keep the high-ranking military officers from bickering among each other??

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-03-07 10:15am

That made no fucking sense because Daala gathered the Imperial Warlords and not anyone from the Empire proper. Unless she and Pellaeon actually turned off of the warlords forces over the the Empire and took charge then that book didnt make sense, oh yeah KJA wrote it. Nuff Said

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2003-03-07 11:04am

IIRC Daala gased all of the Imps who were arguing over who should gain control in Darksaber and then declared herself leader, then after her last attempt on the Jedi Accademy which was thwarted she handed control over to Pellaeon, but by then with all the squabling there wasn't really much to take control of, IMO.
One more thing, why does everyone have it in for KJA?

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2003-03-07 02:48pm

Dorsk 81 wrote:One more thing, why does everyone have it in for KJA?

Tell me you're kidding. Have you actually READ that drivel?

Oh, and Darth Fanboy, your Avatar REALLY pisses me off.

By all means keep it

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-03-07 03:05pm

Darth Fanboy wrote:That made no fucking sense because Daala gathered the Imperial Warlords and not anyone from the Empire proper. Unless she and Pellaeon actually turned off of the warlords forces over the the Empire and took charge then that book didnt make sense, oh yeah KJA wrote it. Nuff Said

Hey know the fuck what you're talking about. Your piss rant makes no fucking sense.

When Chairman Carivus of the Imperial Interim Council was executed by former Royal Guardsman Kir Kanos, the Galactic Empire ceased to exist. All of the Empire proper desintegrated. The warlords centered in the Deep Core while the Outer Rim was filled with fortress world holdouts administrating only themselves.

There was no Empire Proper. Don't shoot off your mouth if you don't know what you're talking about.

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2003-03-07 03:14pm

Batman wrote:
Dorsk 81 wrote:One more thing, why does everyone have it in for KJA?
Tell me you're kidding. Have you actually READ that drivel?

Oh, and Darth Fanboy, your Avatar REALLY pisses me off.

By all means keep it

Well, yea, I've read Darksaber and the JAT, but I didn't think it was THAT bad.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2003-03-07 03:18pm

Dorsk 81 wrote:Well, yea, I've read Darksaber and the JAT, but I didn't think it was THAT bad.

You know, to admit to that on this here board, you're either very brave or very foolish.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-03-07 03:44pm

I thot kja was good when I was in middleschool. . then I found that I myself could write better.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-03-07 03:55pm

I have two of the Jedi Academy trilogy. The last time I read them was years ago. Maybe I should read them again to see what everyone's beef against KJA is.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2003-03-07 04:02pm

Shinova wrote:I have two of the Jedi Academy trilogy. The last time I read them was years ago. Maybe I should read them again to see what everyone's beef against KJA is.

Hell, I have ALL of the JAT AND Darksaber, and I'm not going to reread them if it means conceeding that the earth is flat...