Jedi - Morally Reprehensible?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-03-06 01:51pm

A question was sparked in my mind that I will try to address in my latest fic, but if you knew that your son was a force sensitive, and that as part of the Jedi training he had to be seprated from you and most likely never see you again, WHY would you as a parent do that? What kind of paternal feelings are going on in this Republic that they regularly give up their children sight unseen to the Jedi, never to see them again?

Are the Jedi forcing them somehow to give up their children, are these families being bribed somehow? Is it a law in the Republic that you have to give up a child if they are force sensitive thus if you say no is the family somehow punished. Qui Gon seemed to hint that Shmee would have had no choice in the Republic, Anankin would have been identified and become a Jedi.

So these are good questions. Look at Count Dooku, one of the richest men in the galaxy, if you were supposed to give up all family ties and possessions WHY is Dooku wealthy??? Is there a strange sort of class struggle going on within the order where rich and powerful families give up their children but are allowed to see them and have contact while the poor families are abandoned where they are?

And what is the morality of taking children away from their families? How does that fit into the Light side of the Force to break up families and deny blood?

I just notice alot of fans simply accepting these disturbing ideas from GL and still consider Jedis good guys. I think I can see why Palpatine was able to garner so much support for a purge. Alot of questions I will mull over and will most likely show up in later chapters of The Twilight War, but what are your thoughts on these troubling questions?

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-03-06 01:57pm

Wasn't there something about it in Shadow Hunter? One of the stories characters was an Administrator at the Temple and his son was taken from him and he was given the sack from his job?

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-03-06 01:57pm

There is probably a loop hole in the laws that allows people to opt out. For most low income or middle income families in the SW universe, becoming a Jedi is a noble thing and an oppertunity to elevate their children that normally would not happen. However, the children of already nobel and powerful people would not feel inclined to give away their children because they can already provide a better existence for them. Also an heir for their riches and power and legacy is an issue that a middle income or low income person does not really have to contend with.

Parents of modest living probably are happy to elevate their kids into the position of the Jedi while I am sure some do opt out if they know about it. The rich probably opt out of it the most but I am sure some, probably out of patriotism or other nobel idea's, go ahead and have their kids join the order.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-03-06 02:05pm

It is not a cut and dry situation. On the one hand, Force users can be very dangerous and training is necessary.

On the other hand, to rip the children away from the parents is wrong.

And if it's true that the rich are priviliged, simply because they are rich and powerful, that is wrong as well.

It's kind of like the Psi Corps from B5. They serve an important and vital function. Though you might wish for a better way, there isn't always one.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-03-06 02:10pm

Knife wrote:There is probably a loop hole in the laws that allows people to opt out. For most low income or middle income families in the SW universe, becoming a Jedi is a noble thing and an oppertunity to elevate their children that normally would not happen. Yeah, but to NEVER see their children again, to have the children taken away as infants and not to see their mother or father again. Thats harsh and almost preys upon the hopelessness of poor families.

However, the children of already nobel and powerful people would not feel inclined to give away their children because they can already provide a better existence for them. Is that fair at all, that the poor family must give up their children so that they may have a better life but the rich family can opt out because they are rich? There's an inherent inequality in the system for Jedi so obsessed with balance and doing the right thing?

Also an heir for their riches and power and legacy is an issue that a middle income or low income person does not really have to contend with.

Parents of modest living probably are happy to elevate their kids into the position of the Jedi while I am sure some do opt out if they know about it. The rich probably opt out of it the most but I am sure some, probably out of patriotism or other nobel idea's, go ahead and have their kids join the order. Ah, but you still have Dooku with his wealth and family inheritance. I thought Jedi were not suppose to possess anything?

You see the problem, as you go up the economic scale, you start opting out more and more...is that fair?

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-03-06 02:22pm

neoolong wrote:It is not a cut and dry situation. On the one hand, Force users can be very dangerous and training is necessary.

.

Training is the point. The prequel establish that the kids are young when initiated into the order. One reason is their plyability in emotions and reasoning. One must undergo alot of training to be a force user, look at Luke, he did not go about on Tatooine and levitate wamprats about with the force, he shot them. He was suppost to be powerful in the force like his father, but major force abilities didn't just materialize in him, they had to be developed. If Luke started his Jedi training (the traditional way) at age 20(or so) he would be a basic Knight at 40 and the active time of his Knighthood would be reduced. A TRAINED FORCE USER is very dangerous and a person able to use the force is only dangerous in that the possibility to become a trained force user exists.

On the other hand, to rip the children away from the parents is wrong.

True, but we really don't know it the rip them away. Qui Jon's statment might be taken that most people in Smri's situation usualy give up their kids gladly and the issue of her saying no is remote and generally is not thought of.

And if it's true that the rich are priviliged, simply because they are rich and powerful, that is wrong as well.

Sorry, thats life. Protection is built into the laws for the small people, but power and money create influence.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-03-06 02:27pm

Knife wrote:
neoolong wrote:It is not a cut and dry situation. On the one hand, Force users can be very dangerous and training is necessary.
Training is the point. The prequel establish that the kids are young when initiated into the order. One reason is their plyability in emotions and reasoning. One must undergo alot of training to be a force user, look at Luke, he did not go about on Tatooine and levitate wamprats about with the force, he shot them. He was suppost to be powerful in the force like his father, but major force abilities didn't just materialize in him, they had to be developed. If Luke started his Jedi training (the traditional way) at age 20(or so) he would be a basic Knight at 40 and the active time of his Knighthood would be reduced. A TRAINED FORCE USER is very dangerous and a person able to use the force is only dangerous in that the possibility to become a trained force user exists.

Yet Anakin was able to at least show force precog as a young child. Who knows what a force-sensitive untrained person would be able to do if they still knew what a Jedi was.

On the other hand, to rip the children away from the parents is wrong.

True, but we really don't know it the rip them away. Qui Jon's statment might be taken that most people in Smri's situation usualy give up their kids gladly and the issue of her saying no is remote and generally is not thought of.

The Mace Windu Star Wars Tales shows that it isn't a happy situation for the parents for the kids to go off to be Jedi.

And if it's true that the rich are priviliged, simply because they are rich and powerful, that is wrong as well.
Sorry, thats life. Protection is built into the laws for the small people, but power and money create influence.

All I said was that it is wrong.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-03-06 02:29pm

Knife wrote:
neoolong wrote:It is not a cut and dry situation. On the one hand, Force users can be very dangerous and training is necessary.
Training is the point. The prequel establish that the kids are young when initiated into the order. One reason is their plyability in emotions and reasoning. One must undergo alot of training to be a force user, look at Luke, he did not go about on Tatooine and levitate wamprats about with the force, he shot them. He was suppost to be powerful in the force like his father, but major force abilities didn't just materialize in him, they had to be developed. If Luke started his Jedi training (the traditional way) at age 20(or so) he would be a basic Knight at 40 and the active time of his Knighthood would be reduced. A TRAINED FORCE USER is very dangerous and a person able to use the force is only dangerous in that the possibility to become a trained force user exists.

Yet Anakin was able to at least show force precog as a young child. Who knows what a force-sensitive untrained person would be able to do if they still knew what a Jedi was.

On the other hand, to rip the children away from the parents is wrong.

True, but we really don't know it the rip them away. Qui Jon's statment might be taken that most people in Smri's situation usualy give up their kids gladly and the issue of her saying no is remote and generally is not thought of.

The Mace Windu Star Wars Tales shows that it isn't a happy situation for the parents for the kids to go off to be Jedi.

And if it's true that the rich are priviliged, simply because they are rich and powerful, that is wrong as well.
Sorry, thats life. Protection is built into the laws for the small people, but power and money create influence.

All I said was that it is wrong.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-03-06 02:32pm

Yeah, but to NEVER see their children again, to have the children taken away as infants and not to see their mother or father again. Thats harsh and almost preys upon the hopelessness of poor families.

True, but it is probably more out of duty and the sheer size of the galaxy. I don't recall anything that said that Jedi can't go back and see their families, per haps you can point me to the source of that. Kids being taken into organization that basicly takes custody of the child and raises them is not unheard of in history. The saleing point in it is that they are afforded opertunities that the poor would not normally get.

Is that fair at all, that the poor family must give up their children so that they may have a better life but the rich family can opt out because they are rich? There's an inherent inequality in the system for Jedi so obsessed with balance and doing the right thing?

It is possible that the poor families want to give up their kids to encrease their chances in the world. I am sure that the opt out option is there for everyone, not just the rich, but that the rich are the ones that would regularly use the opt out. Yes people would have to balence out their (supposed) case of not seeing their kid again against their kid having every option in life that the parents could not afford to give them.

Ah, but you still have Dooku with his wealth and family inheritance. I thought Jedi were not suppose to possess anything?

It was my understanding, and I could be wrong since I have not read that much EU on the prequels, that Dooku left the Jedi order and then went back and claimed his heritage and estate, making him rich and powerful on top of being a trained Jedi.

You see the problem, as you go up the economic scale, you start opting out more and more...is that fair?

Its not a problem, the lower you go on the scale, the less options parents have to make their kids life better. Natually if there comes a group and say's that they can give your kid everything and you can't, people would start giving their kids to the group. Not all, but a lot more than those at the other end who can already give everything to their kids without an outside group. This is where nobility and duty and patriotism comes into play.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-03-06 02:41pm

They don't usually force people to give up their children.

Qui-Gon said Anakin would've been found early, but did not indicate that the Jedi force parents to give up their children. Seems impossible to me.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-03-06 02:44pm

I get the lack of seeing family again from the films and what is implied by others in the EU. For instance I don't think Obi Wan ever sees his family or even talks about them. Anakin has not gone to see his mother since he was taken in by the Jedi. Hardly an act of a loving son UNLESS he is not allowed to see his mother.

GL states that a Jedi are not allowed to have attachments. Posession is not allowed. That is why children are taken away as infants before they can bond with their parents, thus creating no attcahments save for the order itself.

I'm not arguing the system does not work. Let's face it the Jedi have been around for millennia and are only purged after they train someone who does not meet their crietria (Anakin) I'm arguing is that for an order that prides itself on a certain moral superiority is this system truly fair?

As to Dooku, didn't he recently leave the Jedi in the movie? (I don't read much of the EU like you so I base alot of my arguments off what I se ein the films.) Kind of quick to claim an inheritence particulalry if there were others in line.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-03-06 02:52pm

Stravo wrote:I'm not arguing the system does not work. Let's face it the Jedi have been around for millennia and are only purged after they train someone who does not meet their crietria (Anakin) I'm arguing is that for an order that prides itself on a certain moral superiority is this system truly fair?

Actually the Jedi Order as seen in the Prequels has only existed for 1,000 years, after Ruusan, reactionary "reforms" were implemented, banning marriage and multiple-apprentices for starters.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-03-06 02:53pm

"Jedi candidates are detected, identified and taken into the order as infants. One method of detection is through blood sampling -- those with great Force potential often have high midi-chlorian counts in their bloodstream. A prospective Jedi begins training in infancy. All connection to previous family life is lost. In this early stage of training, a single master instructs groups, or clans, of Jedi hopefuls."

Source

Authoritatively, I don't know where this falls in, but if still valid, then Jedi aren't allowed to see their families again.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-03-06 03:02pm

neoolong wrote:"Jedi candidates are detected, identified and taken into the order as infants. One method of detection is through blood sampling -- those with great Force potential often have high midi-chlorian counts in their bloodstream. A prospective Jedi begins training in infancy. All connection to previous family life is lost. In this early stage of training, a single master instructs groups, or clans, of Jedi hopefuls."

Source

Authoritatively, I don't know where this falls in, but if still valid, then Jedi aren't allowed to see their families again.

Ok, I accept that. I still don't think that it is a stricktly bad thing rather a factor in the deciesion for the parents.

On Dooku, I was under the impression that he left the order some ten years ago. It was mentioned that Fett was recruited by Tyranous to be the templet for the clones. Now I doubt that Dooku would start operating as Tyranous while still in the order, but it is a possibility.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-03-06 03:14pm

Knife wrote:On Dooku, I was under the impression that he left the order some ten years ago. It was mentioned that Fett was recruited by Tyranous to be the templet for the clones. Now I doubt that Dooku would start operating as Tyranous while still in the order, but it is a possibility.

Starwars.com says that Dooku didn't take on the name Tyranus until after he had left the Order.

Which means that it has been at least 10 years since Dooku left the Jedi. Probably longer since he would have had some training in the Sith ways.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-03-06 03:18pm

There may be widespread fear of "uncontrolled" Force-sensitives in the Republic, and the Jedi Order takes them in both to protect them and to train them to use their abilities to benefit the society. The Psi Corps performs a similar role in B5's Earth Alliance; the difference being that the Psi Corps seems to be far more corrupt than the Jedi Order.

If the Jedi Order serves in the capacity of protecting the public from rogue Force sensitives, then it probably is a legal requirement for parents to surrender sensitive children to them.

Count Dooku is an interesting case study. Was he born to wealth and power, or did he achieve them after leaving the order? The wealth itself isn't terribly hard to explain; Qui-Gonn Jinn demonstrated that a Jedi could conceivably clean out a casino and play stocks with little fear (two more reasons why the "mundane" public would fear Force sensitives). What circumstances allowed him to leave the order (since Obi-Wan says that commitments to the order "are not easily broken")? Mace Windu apparently still believed that Dooku would be a benign presence in "secular" society, so the circumstances of his departure couldn't have been criminal.

From our semi-omniscient perspective, Count Dooku seems to represent everything the public would have to fear from selfish, unrestrained Force sensitive in their midst. In other words, he demonstrates why the public would want an organization like the Jedi Order to separate Force sensitive individuals and train them as public servants.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-03-06 03:26pm

Dooku was born rich. After he left he took on his inheritance and title.

Count, is his title, and it's not a Jedi one.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-03-06 04:07pm

Personally I think Lucas made a mistake with the full separation of the jedis from family life.

I think a less than one year old child canot show any sign of being force-sensitive. So it seems that jedis regularly pop up somewhere in the Republic and take away a child saying that the baby is force sensitive. I can imagine only a very few mothers allowing that. I think most mothers would attack the jedi immediately. Besides since the force sensitivity seems to be hereditary the jedis cut their own recruitment not allowing strong emotions and family.

The Jedi Order seems to be more and more similar to the Psi Corp. And it is not good. They (the jedis) were previously thought to be the good guys but now they seem to be merciless, emotionless and not so good.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-03-06 04:17pm

vakundok wrote:Personally I think Lucas made a mistake with the full separation of the jedis from family life.

I think a less than one year old child canot show any sign of being force-sensitive. So it seems that jedis regularly pop up somewhere in the Republic and take away a child saying that the baby is force sensitive. I can imagine only a very few mothers allowing that. I think most mothers would attack the jedi immediately. Besides since the force sensitivity seems to be hereditary the jedis cut their own recruitment not allowing strong emotions and family.

Except a source that I have quoted shows that they can detect them as infants.

And force sensitivity is not just hereditary. If it was then you would just have to keep track of families that have a history of producing force-sensitive children. It may be biological, that doesn't mean hereditary.

The Jedi Order seems to be more and more similar to the Psi Corp. And it is not good. They (the jedis) were previously thought to be the good guys but now they seem to be merciless, emotionless and not so good.

The Psi Corp served an important purpose. It was highly corrupt due to the part it played in the story. However, its function was necessary.

And the Jedi are still the "good guys," they are only less one-dimensional now. Yoda explicitly stated they were getting arrogant. They are not some archetype of the typical good guy. They weren't even that way in the OT when you learn Vader was a Jedi and later when we see how Luke is willing to act as a Jedi.

It seems you are trying to show what is wrong with the Jedi Order in terms of what you want them to be, not what is actually wrong with how they act given their options.

vakundok · Post by **vakundok** » 2003-03-06 04:17pm

neoolong wrote:Dooku was born rich. After he left he took on his inheritance and title.

Count, is his title, and it's not a Jedi one.

Interesting. How was he able to return to his family? Obi Van forgot what Qui-gon told him about the lightsaber, so their memories were not so perfect. How was Dooku able to remember the name of his family since a less than one year old baby (especially a boy) canot speak. Or was it stored within the Jedi Archives?

TrekWarsie · Post by **TrekWarsie** » 2003-03-06 04:27pm

I think that ripping a child away from his or her parents is wrong and it has the potential to bring disaster. Suppose a child is around five and he/she wants to train to be a Jedi, but he/she doesn't want to leave his parents. The Jedi Master teaching him then tells him that he must supress his/her emotions. The child also learns that he/she can't marry legitimately. It seems to me that the child would be easy pickings for the Sith. All the Sith would have to do is convince the child that it is the Jedi who are evil for taking other force sensitive children away from their parents. And since children are impressionable, I think that it would not be difficult for a Sith to do this. The biggest mistake the Sith ever made was going to that rule where there are only two: an apprentice and a master. The Jedi ways were so flawed that if the Sith had stopped and thought about how many Jedi might embrace the Dark Side, or just not want to be confined to the foolish rules of the Jedi, they could have easily destroyed the Jedi order; or at least made the Jedi rethink their positions on certain views when half the kids become Sith lords and ladies.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-03-06 04:27pm

neoolong wrote:Dooku was born rich. After he left he took on his inheritance and title.

Count, is his title, and it's not a Jedi one.

Please back up these claims, since titles can be granted by anyone with the right authority.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-03-06 04:27pm

vakundok wrote:
neoolong wrote:Dooku was born rich. After he left he took on his inheritance and title.

Count, is his title, and it's not a Jedi one.
Interesting. How was he able to return to his family? Obi Van forgot what Qui-gon told him about the lightsaber, so their memories were not so perfect. How was Dooku able to remember the name of his family since a less than one year old baby (especially a boy) canot speak. Or was it stored within the Jedi Archives?

He was from a rich family. The rules work differently for them. It might not have been decided until later for him to enter the order. And then he became one of the Lost Twenty. The Jedi were arrogant. They let him leave because they didn't think he was dangerous.

Besides Count is an inherited title. Even if he was taken, he is still technically the Count of Serenno, that means that there would be more information about him than for poorer Jedi.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-03-06 04:28pm

Ted C wrote:
neoolong wrote:Dooku was born rich. After he left he took on his inheritance and title.

Count, is his title, and it's not a Jedi one.
Please back up these claims, since titles can be granted by anyone with the right authority.

Starwars.com "His birthright as the Count of Serenno also afforded him incredible wealth, which he used in his political career as Separatist leader."

Source

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-03-06 04:34pm

neoolong wrote: Starwars.com "His birthright as the Count of Serenno also afforded him incredible wealth, which he used in his political career as Separatist leader."

Source

Thank you. Not much, but it does appear to confirm that his title is inherited.

Since he was presumably take for training as an infant, we can only assume that the Jedi Order keeps records of where they pick up their assorted infant charges.

Unfortunately, there's no explanation of the circumstances under which he left the Jedi Order.