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First off the bat, it's written by David Sherman and Dan Cragg; more famous for their Starfist series. That story wasn't too bad, being some pretty decent mility SF... WITHIN THEIR OWN UNIVERSE! SWJT was basically written as a Starfist novel, with the names changed, it was that bad.

Time and time again, non-canon figures and attitudes came blasting their way out of the page, so I could only read a chapter or so at a time before throwing the book down and walking away for a while. Some examples? Sure, how about a LAAT/i with a rear ramp! Clone troopers suffering injuries that could only have been inflicted if they were wearing ST pyjamas! Oh, and a single proton torpedo destoying the Separatist flagship! In a Delta-7 Aethersprite armed with 'blasters', no less?

Oh, yeah, that was a common fuckup all through the book. Confusing blasters, laser cannon, turbolasers and freaking ion cannon! Capships arming their 'blaster cannon' to attack other Capships. Saying that Anakin's Delta-7 had 'aerofoils', which it apparently needed when flying below 20,000m. Days spent in hyperspace travelling between Coruscent and Praesitlyn (the latter a 'vital' Republic comms centre that, apparently, was in a galaxy next door).

Sherman and Cragg are supposedly US military vets, according to the only other post I've seen here discussing their work. Well, from what I read, one or the other of them could be a Gunner, given the details expounded on concerning the extraordinarily complex fires an artillery unit could be asked to set up. Unfortunately, I suspect that a lot of that could as easily been cribbed straight out of the relevant manuals, since an actual understanding of even so basic a fire mission as a 'Time on Target' stomp was never shown. Their use of AFVs was ludicrous, being blatantly wasted and regularly confusing who was actually using what vehicles, and they clearly have no fucking idea how to employ infantry. I'm a freaking Sailor, yet was wincing several times in this book before attacks had even begun because even I could see how badly they were fucking up. If Sherman and Cragg were once US soldiers, and had any kind of responsibility for men under their command, why, oh, why were they never fragged by their own people?

When I started reading this wankfest, I figured the authors were rabid trekkies either out to make a point, or not really aware of the differences between the universes. But over time, I came to realise that it was more than simple incompetence as authors. The only way I can explain how 'Starfist: Jedi Trial' was written, is if you posulate the existence of a committee. A committee of thoroughly bitter US Vietnam Vets, who blamed all of their experiences on the invisible higher-ups, and now wanted to get some of their own back by making them look like idiotic Col Blimps. Hell, their writing style works fine when its limited to a handfull of men, preferrably betrayed, cut off from support and already declared expendable (see where I'm going with this>), but NOT in a galaxy-wide conflict of such enormous proportions. Not quite as bad as the Travissty's, perhaps, but you could really tell that these guys were out of their depth when dealing with any unit larger than a squad. Oh, and you can tell when the manuals they've been copying out of weren't immediately available.

Fuck it. That book is going in the bin. Fuck you Sherman and Cragg, and fuck off back to your own lame, under-developed, weak-arsed, Vietnam-reanactment universe until you can actually follow the canon-rules for someone elses.

Just a nitpick: LAATi's were shown to have a rear ramp in incredible cross-sections and other sources. Whatever the novel's other faults, that isn't one of them.

It's been a while since I read the book, but I vaguely remember it as being okay. What sort of injuries that could only have been inflicted if they were wearing pyjamas are we talking about?

Ugolino wrote:Just a nitpick: LAATi's were shown to have a rear ramp in incredible cross-sections and other sources. Whatever the novel's other faults, that isn't one of them.

IIRC the ramp was to deploy speeder bikes, correct?

Srelex wrote:It's been a while since I read the book, but I vaguely remember it as being okay. What sort of injuries that could only have been inflicted if they were wearing pyjamas are we talking about?

An example is a brief scene at a MASH/RIMSU where a large number of clones are being brought in with extensive burns all over their bodies. My first thought on reading that was, for flames/plasma/etc to reach their torsos and cause the referenced injuries, the JOINTS in their armour should have been carbonised clean off! For flame to reach the body under the armour, it must get through the open joints somehow. The only way I could mentally explain the reported injuries was if their plastoid armour was actually made of plastic!

My complaint there was the complete disregard for the clone's Phase 1 armour having any beneficial protective effect whatsoever. While later replaced with Phase 2 armour, according to Wookiepedia, this was largely a matter of comfort for the clones rather than starting from scratch with something that actually did its job.

Imperial528 wrote:

Ugolino wrote:Just a nitpick: LAATi's were shown to have a rear ramp in incredible cross-sections and other sources. Whatever the novel's other faults, that isn't one of them.

IIRC the ramp was to deploy speeder bikes, correct?

Exactly. This is a sealed compartment in the rear of the craft, containing 2 speeder bikes (from memory). There is no internal access to that compartment or the rear ramp from the personnel compartment within the LAAT. Yet the damn book has them charging down this ramp when finally deployed.

Now, they may have been thinking of the CR20 troop transports, but that only makes it worse. The ramp on these landing craft is in the front! Plus, given their size and demonstrated lack of nimbleness when compared to LAATs, a worse choice for getting troops right into the fight didn't really exist.

Finally, the only option left is that they had to have used transports brought by Slake's troops, which were never properly identified or described. They may have had rear ramps, but that leaves us with trying to explain why clone troops (who've already landed with all of their kit) are using the landing craft of an ally who has already suffered extremely heavy losses in men and equipment. Doesn't really work...

SeaTrooper wrote:

Srelex wrote:It's been a while since I read the book, but I vaguely remember it as being okay. What sort of injuries that could only have been inflicted if they were wearing pyjamas are we talking about?

An example is a brief scene at a MASH/RIMSU where a large number of clones are being brought in with extensive burns all over their bodies. My first thought on reading that was, for flames/plasma/etc to reach their torsos and cause the referenced injuries, the JOINTS in their armour should have been carbonised clean off! For flame to reach the body under the armour, it must get through the open joints somehow. The only way I could mentally explain the reported injuries was if their plastoid armour was actually made of plastic!

My complaint there was the complete disregard for the clone's Phase 1 armour having any beneficial protective effect whatsoever. While later replaced with Phase 2 armour, according to Wookiepedia, this was largely a matter of comfort for the clones rather than starting from scratch with something that actually did its job.

Would it be possible to see some passages? I don't see that as being too unreasonable, if the droids were using heavy weapons or concentrated fire, or is there something I'm missing?

Regardin the OP several points
- Anakin's fighter was specially modifed at the time of this battle, hence his ability to fire Torpedoes see here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Azure_Angel_II
- Regarding hyperspace travel, it could be this station is locaed in a hazardous region of space. This is not a new concept, in Heir to the Empire speeds are shown to be only 20,000c in one scene while it was shown to be 1.2 million c in a scene in Dark Force Rising.
I really can't comment on the military aspects.

However I do agree slightly on the point that it seems that this story in many ways doesn't feel like Star Wars. To me this felt like a Tom Clancy novel that happened to take place in the Star Wars galaxy.

Srelex wrote: Would it be possible to see some passages? I don't see that as being too unreasonable, if the droids were using heavy weapons or concentrated fire, or is there something I'm missing?

Here is the relevant passage that he is refering to

Jedi Trial pg 256 wrote: The worst was the burn cases, clones stripped of their armor, so badly incinerated that their limbs had been reduced to charred sticks, their faces to blackened skulls, uniform fragments fused to their flesh. Yet Somehow they lived. None of these were put into the saved category. Others lay in pools of their own blood, limbs missing, internal organs exposed.

There is also this scene:

Jedi Trial pg 253 wrote:It has suffered a direct hit from a blaster cannon. Burning clones poured out of the vehicle and whirled and twisted awkwardly in their armor, like living corpses, before collapsing; the transport then exploded in an enormous flash,

Also does anyone know how these injuries compare to those seen in the Medstar dulogy ?

SeaTrooper wrote:

Imperial528 wrote:

Ugolino wrote:Just a nitpick: LAATi's were shown to have a rear ramp in incredible cross-sections and other sources. Whatever the novel's other faults, that isn't one of them.

IIRC the ramp was to deploy speeder bikes, correct?

Exactly. This is a sealed compartment in the rear of the craft, containing 2 speeder bikes (from memory). There is no internal access to that compartment or the rear ramp from the personnel compartment within the LAAT. Yet the damn book has them charging down this ramp when finally deployed.

Now, they may have been thinking of the CR20 troop transports, but that only makes it worse. The ramp on these landing craft is in the front! Plus, given their size and demonstrated lack of nimbleness when compared to LAATs, a worse choice for getting troops right into the fight didn't really exist.

Finally, the only option left is that they had to have used transports brought by Slake's troops, which were never properly identified or described. They may have had rear ramps, but that leaves us with trying to explain why clone troops (who've already landed with all of their kit) are using the landing craft of an ally who has already suffered extremely heavy losses in men and equipment. Doesn't really work...

Actually according to the AOTC ICS this ramp is acessible from the front of the ship. In this image the ramps is clearly acessible from the front. It is even easier to see in the ICS diagram but I can't find it. See here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:LAAT.jpg

In most dipections the side doors are used, bu the rear ramp is present.

I would assume that soldiers would use the rear ramp when deploying in heavy fire, since the gunship would act as good cover.

Imperial528 wrote:I would assume that soldiers would use the rear ramp when deploying in heavy fire, since the gunship would act as good cover.

Which would mean negotiating past speeder bikes, if loaded/carried. Even if not, the very small door leading back into that compartment (and, yes, sorry but I'd missed that earlier) would bottle-neck movement. Why waste the time filing through there, when you have two huge doors in the sides? Wouldn't everyone leaping out both sides in a single rush, and then dispersing as necessary, be far better than having the transport effectively pinned in place while everyone files out the back door? Hell, if you're under heavy fire, you want your troops unassed and the transport away again as fast as humanly possible.

Who's to say that the speeder bike may be deployed as well before the soldiers are? They would be useful for scouting out enemy positions in any engagement. It's also very much possible that if you plan to deploy through the ramp troops-first you can simply load the bikes to the side or the front of the transport cabin rather than the center of the ramp end, or simply not bring the bikes at all.

Also, what small door are you referring too?

Imperial528 wrote: Also, what small door are you referring too?

My mistake. Remove the speeders and there is clearly more than enough room for the troops to rush out in a body. More, in fact, than many AIFVs in common service today. Ah, well, one less bitch about this bloody book, then.

Out of curiosity, what was the character interaction like? I'd think a Corellian Jedi and Anakin interacting might be interesting.

Also, how effective were the non-clone forces?

Talhe wrote:Out of curiosity, what was the character interaction like? I'd think a Corellian Jedi and Anakin interacting might be interesting.

Also, how effective were the non-clone forces?

Boring, boring..... staid....... Stark was remotely interesting before Anakin forces got in.

For all the talk about military porn, it all devolved down to humdrum heroics.

PainRack wrote:Boring, boring..... staid....... Stark was remotely interesting before Anakin forces got in.

Slight nitpick, the commander of the renegade forces was Slayke.

PainRack wrote:For all the talk about military porn, it all devolved down to humdrum heroics.

Yeah that was really ironic in this story, there was all this talk that made it seem more militaristic and then it was resolved almost solely by Anakin.

I'm actually reminded of the unfinished strategy pages on the main site where there is a discussion of the strategic models, specifically how the spec ops model seems to dominate. Its interesting that while initially this book seemed to be going away from that, it ultimately reverted to the standard Star Wars hero endingTM

Talhe wrote:Out of curiosity, what was the character interaction like? I'd think a Corellian Jedi and Anakin interacting might be interesting.

Also, how effective were the non-clone forces?

The interactions between the 2 Jedi were very close, but mainly because they shared the same secret. BOTH were married, and well aware that this was more than simply frowned on in Yoda's Order. Indeed, there are some hints that Yoda may suspect Anakin, but not so much that he's ready for a confrontation. Of course, then we got into some back story of Nejaa Halcyon (apparently a VERY common name in the SW 'verse), having been sent to arrest CAPT Slayke, who then stole the Jedi's ship while he was distracted. Annoyingly, the ego's of all the senior officers in this story just have to spark off each other! Totally unnecessary and largely unwarranted contempt when they meet on Praesitlyn, with Slayke especially displaying a bipolar personality, which then shifts to mutual fan-club stroking for even less obvious reason.

I originally bought this book in the vain hope of learning more of what the Jedi Trials comprise. Well, in this case, Anakin's appears to have been getting through a whole lot of frustration, anger and pain without turning completely to the dark side. Not what I was looking for, but rather a trial that seemed specifically his. Much as Obiwan's trial was his fight with Darth Maul, I guess.

The clones? Yes, they fought well and obediantly, but were very badly used. The chapter where scouts were sent in to look for weak areas around the comms station, for example. The artillery stomp meant to cover the withdrawal of ALL the scout teams was initiated early solely because some womb-born troops needed to get back fast. This barrage not only cost the lives of (apparently) all of the clone scouts, but first mutilated and then killed the clone trying to get back with the intel the Republic's side most desperately needed! Given the authors of this story, thinking of the clone's as black or hispanic conscripts and the womb-born as their white officers, and the utter disregard for their lives, training and opinions becomes understandable. Hell, there's even a scene where a clone captain is trying to tell Anakin that he is making a big, fucking mistake, but the clone is too disciplined to push the matter further, and Anakin is left surprised that the clone would even raise the matter... as though he thought 'Soldier, Ask Not' was coded into their genes. The clones are seriously stereotyped as subhuman machines, inevitably leading to their 'betters' mis-using them woefully.

Frankly, the one good thing to come out of the this book was my increased sense of respect for the clones. Probably accidental on the part of the authors, but you could see that the clones would be a devastating weapon if given competent leadership. Don't expect to find any of that in this story, though.

Adamskywalker007 wrote:

PainRack wrote:Boring, boring..... staid....... Stark was remotely interesting before Anakin forces got in.

Slight nitpick, the commander of the renegade forces was Slayke.

PainRack wrote:For all the talk about military porn, it all devolved down to humdrum heroics.

Yeah that was really ironic in this story, there was all this talk that made it seem more militaristic and then it was resolved almost solely by Anakin.

I'm actually reminded of the unfinished strategy pages on the main site where there is a discussion of the strategic models, specifically how the spec ops model seems to dominate. Its interesting that while initially this book seemed to be going away from that, it ultimately reverted to the standard Star Wars hero endingTM

It's worse than that, Jim... After going into how aerial assaults were completely out of the question, due to the incredibly intentsive air defences in place, how does Anakin and his squad get in? Yep, they few two little transports in, landing effectively in the freaking MIDDLE of the facility! What I found annoying about that little scene, was having predicted it chapters earlier; and I didn't even need the Force to do so.

[quote="SeaTrooper] Given the authors of this story, thinking of the clone's as black or hispanic conscripts and the womb-born as their white officers, and the utter disregard for their lives, training and opinions becomes understandable. Hell, there's even a scene where a clone captain is trying to tell Anakin that he is making a big, fucking mistake, but the clone is too disciplined to push the matter further, and Anakin is left surprised that the clone would even raise the matter... as though he thought 'Soldier, Ask Not' was coded into their genes. The clones are seriously stereotyped as subhuman machines, inevitably leading to their 'betters' mis-using them woefully.

Frankly, the one good thing to come out of the this book was my increased sense of respect for the clones. Probably accidental on the part of the authors, but you could see that the clones would be a devastating weapon if given competent leadership. Don't expect to find any of that in this story, though.[/quote]
The opening of the conference was on how desperate the battle was and how important vital military concepts such as logistics, POL and etc was.
Yet, we never saw a glimmer of the desperation of the battle or the importance of such constraints.... Ok, not a problem.

So lead on to character development. Like you pointed out..... nuts.

Fine. What about plot? Just...... Thin on the ground.


Its was as if the author was being pressured to fit in all these sub themes and etc and couldn't decide whether he was writing an action thriller, a military/political thriller or a novel about commanders in war.