StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Why is it that, in the Old Jedi Order, anyone who fell in love with anyone was kicked out of the order or something if they didn't fall to the dark side first? Why does this big hangup for the old order seem really benign under Luke's? I mean, I think I get that Luke didn't know about that at first, but why doesn't the New Jedi Order have people falling to the dark side because of this like the old one did?

Maybe because the old order was a flawed institution with its head stuck so far up its own arrogant ass that it forgot the importance of compassion and couldn't figure out that some people do good not out of some abstract sense of duty but out of loyalty to people? This was, like, the entire point of the fall of Anakin in RoTS. Luke on the other hand showed he understood the difference when he chose to disobey Yoda and save his friends in Empire. When he reinstated the Jedi he didn't see the harm because there was no harm, at least not inherently. Sure, slippery slopes and all that, but that goes both ways.

The NJO had other fish to fry, namely all the cadets who fell to the dark side from just being introduced to massive power. The risk of falling to the dark side from attachment of love ones is a more refined problem that can be dealt with after they've got their teaching techniques down.

On a pragmatic note, all of the students Luke had were adults; turning them off from romantic attachment in the middle of their lives is probably going to be more difficult then a child you train from birth.

Of course, he probably didn't see a problem with romance, either; Yoda and Obi-Wan seemed to have skipped that part of his Jedi training.

Knife wrote:The NJO had other fish to fry, namely all the cadets who fell to the dark side from just being introduced to massive power. The risk of falling to the dark side from attachment of love ones is a more refined problem that can be dealt with after they've got their teaching techniques down.

It may also have something to do with the need being there to repopulate. After all, Palpatine was well known for wiping out force users.

Formless wrote:Maybe because the old order was a flawed institution with its head stuck so far up its own arrogant ass that it forgot the importance of compassion and couldn't figure out that some people do good not out of some abstract sense of duty but out of loyalty to people?

Please show evidence that the Jedi were not compassionate to others and stop spouting this fucking "Flawed Arrogant Order as a whole" brainbug that seems to be so prevalent today. As said by Yoda in the RoTS novelization, the Jedi lost because "they had trained to fight the last war" while the Sith had prepared for a new conflict. In other words what they were guilty of was being caught off guard by the Sith who had completely been reinvented and were thus more dangerous.

You're just blindly throwing out the criticisms of the Jedi order used by their opponents in the canon, at least a few of those opponents happen to be power hungry murderers and assassins.

This was, like, the entire point of the fall of Anakin in RoTS.

Sure, there is no blame on Anakin whatsoever for failing to take Yoda's advice, which was actually quite good. No blame on Anakin for failing to disclose details of the things that he had done in secret. No blame on Anakin for failing to make the ethical choice between helping Mace Windu or helping Palpatine, who was out in the open as Darth Sidious at this point.

The reason Anakin fell is because he was corrupted by jealousy, greed, and selfishness.

Luke on the other hand showed he understood the difference when he chose to disobey Yoda and save his friends in Empire. When he reinstated the Jedi he didn't see the harm because there was no harm, at least not inherently. Sure, slippery slopes and all that, but that goes both ways.

And yet, Yoda was absolutely correct in Empire Strikes Back. Luke only survived because Vader allowed him to, if he had been killed the chances for stopping the Emperor diminish greatly.

keen320 wrote:Why is it that, in the Old Jedi Order, anyone who fell in love with anyone was kicked out of the order or something if they didn't fall to the dark side first? Why does this big hangup for the old order seem really benign under Luke's? I mean, I think I get that Luke didn't know about that at first, but why doesn't the New Jedi Order have people falling to the dark side because of this like the old one did?

I assume that the newer material being written out of order had something to do with it, heh.

In universe, Luke had no idea how the Old Jedi Order had done things. And it most certainly wasn't benign given the terror that happened when Dolph's family was killed on Almania and he became Kueller.

Why is it that, in the Old Jedi Order, anyone who fell in love with anyone was kicked out of the order or something if they didn't fall to the dark side first

Not to nitpick, but it isn't entirely the case; Quinlan Vos and Tholme (who had a relationship with another Jedi) weren't kicked out of the Order for marrying, although it might be because they needed every Jedi they could get.

Granted, Vos should have been kicked out anyways for other reasons...

On a somewhat related note, does the NJO have a better record at keeping Jedi from falling then the OJO? Looking at them both, they've both had Jedi fall to the dark side, but the NJO seems to have avoided the whole 'we have a member from within murder us all' and whatnot.

Darth Fanboy wrote:Please show evidence that the Jedi were not compassionate to others and stop spouting this fucking "Flawed Arrogant Order as a whole" brainbug that seems to be so prevalent today.

What the hell? The prequels made it very clear that the Jedi are flawed. Qui-Gon, the main hero in TPM, is portrayed as a victim of the Jedi Council's conformity and politics. Anakin thrived under Qui-Gon's early guidance, and felt constrained by Obi-Wan's stricter and less trusting mentoring. Yoda clearly states that many Jedi have grown "arrogant" during AOTC. In ROTS, his big answer to Anakin's fears about losing someone close to him was to just let go. Anakin of course reacted very badly to everything that happened to him, but the other Jedi were flawed as well.

It's not that the Jedi don't care about people. It's that they're extremely caught up in their old doctrines, and hold onto a philosophy of self-denial and detachment. They cared about the ideal of serving the Republic, but didn't offer much on a personal level.

And yet, Yoda was absolutely correct in Empire Strikes Back. Luke only survived because Vader allowed him to, if he had been killed the chances for stopping the Emperor diminish greatly.

Yoda and Obi-Wan were wrong in ROTJ, when they told Luke to just kill Vader because he was beyond hope. "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." That was disproven when Luke successfully redeemed Vader.

One of the Star Wars saga's main themes is escaping the constraints of your parents. Obi-Wan is overly critical of Anakin and doesn't trust him. Anakin goes bad (because he can't control his rage, which is the other big theme of SW), but at the end of ROTS Obi-Wan also admits that "I have failed you." He goes off to Tatooine where he receives offscreen training from Qui-Gon's ghost, and presumably mellows out into the kinder, gentler Obi-Wan of ANH. Old Obi-Wan has much more success with Luke than he did with Anakin.

Uncle Owen wanted to keep Luke on the farm. When he dies, Luke leaves Tatooine and becomes a great hero. Vader (who's name comes from "vater," German for "father") was basically an abusive dad who kicked Luke's ass because his son didn't want to be just like him. As I said before, Yoda and Obi-Wan were wrong about whether Luke could redeem Vader.

Throughout the saga, heroes are shown succeeding or failing based on whether they can overcome their oppressive parent figures. The parental figures that are portrayed in a good light, such as Qui-Gon or Old Obi-Wan, are the ones who trust the young heroes and teach them in a way that equips them to handle life.

EDIT: fixed names

Jim Raynor wrote: What the hell? The prequels made it very clear that the Jedi are flawed. Qui-Gon, the main hero in TPM, is portrayed as a victim of the Jedi Council's conformity and politics. Anakin thrived under Qui-Gon's early guidance, and felt constrained by Obi-Wan's stricter and less trusting mentoring.

I am aware of the dialogue. But also note that it was Qui Gon who wanted Anakin Skywalker trained in the ways of the Force, which ultimately gave Palpatine one of the greatest assets he needed to bringing the galaxy under his control. I am not saying the Jedi Order was perfect by any stretch, and they had become complacent sure, but they are far from the arrogant and completely out of touch incompetent caricature they seem to have been transformed into by some.

The fact remains that the Jedi Council was not wrong when they initially decided against training Anakin Skywalker. The eventually agreed only out of sympathy for the recently deceased Qui Gon Jinn, a decision that did not sit well with Yoda even in the aftermath of Qui Gon's funeral.

Meanwhile, Anakin was under Qui Gon's guidance for how long exactly? Couldn't have been very long at all. To compare the scant time those two spent together compared to the many years spent together by Anakin and Obi Wan is not fair.

Yoda clearly states that many Jedi have grown "arrogant" during AOTC.

Yoda's commentary should not be taken so literally to the point that it can be reasonably interpreted that the Jedi "forgot the importance of compassion" as Formless stated. For 1,000 years the Jedi had kept the peace and had a astoundingly noteworthy reputation, a measure of arrogance is not entirely unexpected, but we still see plenty of depictions of Jedi selflessly protecting others.

In ROTS, his big answer to Anakin's fears about losing someone close to him was to just let go.

If Anakin had followed Yoda's advice, he would have been better off. Or if he had fully disclosed some very important details about his visions, then perhaps Yoda could have offered some better advice. It is easy for us to make judgments about Yoda's advice, but the fact that in the SW universe the dark side is a very tangible and corruptive force changes the way the matter should be percieved. Being 900 years old, Yoda has seen far more beings live and die than most others, and I am sure that his perspective might be different.

But he wasn't wrong at all. Anakin's fears were self fulfilling, by becoming consumed with his attachment to Padme he ended up fulfilling the visions he sought to prevent. Now I will not say that it was wrong for Padme and Anakin to get married, but Anakin allowed himself to be consumed by his greed and jealously. He was the one responsible for her death after all.

Anakin of course reacted very badly to everything that happened to him, but the other Jedi were flawed as well.

I never claimed the Jedi were perfect, but saying they are flawed isn't saying much. But in this situation it wasn't any kind of institutional flaw that caused Anakin to fall to the Dark Side.

It's not that the Jedi don't care about people. It's that they're extremely caught up in their old doctrines, and hold onto a philosophy of self-denial and detachment. They cared about the ideal of serving the Republic, but didn't offer much on a personal level.

Yes the JEdi were caught up in old doctrines and philosophies, I get that. But what does that really make them guilty of? As a result they were blindsided by the Dark Lord of the Sith, but can you or anyone tell me what actual harms were caused by the Jedi following their old traditions other than Anakin falling to the Dark Side (where Anakin bears responsbility that seems to get ignored)? It was a maverick Jedi who brought about the rise of Darth Vader, and another maverick Jedi who sought to avenge that Jedi's death that helped plunge the galaxy into Civil War.

Yoda and Obi-Wan were wrong in ROTJ, when they told Luke to just kill Vader because he was beyond hope. "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." That was disproven when Luke successfully redeemed Vader.

Agreed, you are correct, but you know what was awesome about that? The fact that it used to apparently be a big deal to redeem someone from the Dark Side, which was an amazing part of the story that got watered down when suddeny every Mary Sue and Gary Stu Jedi Knight were redeeming darksiders in the EU. I liked that Obi Wan and Yoda were wrong in that instance because it really made the moment more powerful. I liked that Yoda and Obi Wan were wrong because it was just so unlikely that Vader could be redeemed, but I think that's a different argument than the one we are on now.

One of the Star Wars saga's main themes is escaping the constraints of your parents. Obi-Wan is overly critical of Anakin and doesn't trust him. Anakin goes bad (because he can't control his rage, which is the other big theme of SW), but at the end of ROTS Obi-Wan also admits that "I have failed you." He goes off to Tatooine where he receives offscreen training from Qui-Gon's ghost, and presumably mellows out into the kinder, gentler Obi-Wan of ANH. Old Obi-Wan has much more success with Luke than he did with Anakin.

I am aware of the canon events that take place. But I disagree with your interpretation. I think Obi Wan eventually does trust Anakin more than you suspect. I think Obi Wan thinks he failed Anakin because, as a Jedi Council Member, he allowed Anakin to be put into a position (spying on Palpatine) that put him at an even greater risk than Obi Wan even realized. I think he feels that he failed Anakin not because of the way he instructed Anakin, but because he felt he delivered Anakin right into Palpatine's hands.

Uncle Owen wanted to keep Luke on the farm. When he dies, Luke leaves Tatooine and becomes a great hero. Vader (who's name comes from "vater," German for "father") was basically an abusive dad who kicked Luke's ass because his son didn't want to be just like him.

I greatly disagree with this simplistic interpretation.

As I said before, Yoda and Obi-Wan were wrong about whether Luke could redeem Vader.

As I said before I agree with you, but also as I said before, it used to be a really BFD that Vader could even be redeemed. Before the EU, we thought Luke was eventually going to be rebuilding the Jedi Order too.

Throughout the saga, heroes are shown succeeding or failing based on whether they can overcome their oppressive parent figures. The parental figures that are portrayed in a good light, such as Qui-Gon or Old Obi-Wan, are the ones who trust the young heroes and teach them in a way that equips them to handle life.

That is all well and good but I am seeing a lot of background but not a lot of specific evidence to where the Jedi Order has become so arrogant that compassion is no longer practiced, which was what I was more specifically responding to.

Talhe wrote:On a pragmatic note, all of the students Luke had were adults; turning them off from romantic attachment in the middle of their lives is probably going to be more difficult then a child you train from birth.

Of course, he probably didn't see a problem with romance, either; Yoda and Obi-Wan seemed to have skipped that part of his Jedi training.

Yoda tried, when he insisted that Luke not go to rescue his friends, then running out of time when Luke got back. While I would like to think that little green moron had learnt his lesson, inpending death had put a hand on his shoulder and forced him to concentrate on the priorities. As has been noted in many other threads, Yoda's extremely long lifespan (comparatively) meant that he'd had an over-sized influence on how the Republic's Jedi Order had developed. His own view of and insistence on 'no attachements' had thus become simply the way things are. Few questioned Yoda's Order, and those who did were largely barred from the Order. Thus the self-perpetuating tragedy in the making we saw in Anakin.

You're kidding about Yoda, right? He didn't want Luke to go so he wouldn't die or get captured, which nearly happened, if not for one of the biggest badasses of the franchise (R2-D2). Telling him not to go was practical, and probably the better option.

Darth Fanboy wrote:I am aware of the dialogue. But also note that it was Qui Gon who wanted Anakin Skywalker trained in the ways of the Force, which ultimately gave Palpatine one of the greatest assets he needed to bringing the galaxy under his control. I am not saying the Jedi Order was perfect by any stretch, and they had become complacent sure, but they are far from the arrogant and completely out of touch incompetent caricature they seem to have been transformed into by some.

The fact remains that the Jedi Council was not wrong when they initially decided against training Anakin Skywalker. The eventually agreed only out of sympathy for the recently deceased Qui Gon Jinn, a decision that did not sit well with Yoda even in the aftermath of Qui Gon's funeral.

Anakin is the Chosen One, destined to bring balance to the Force and destroy the Sith. Qui-Gon was right to want him trained. A combination of Palpatine's efforts, the Jedi's mistakes, and Anakin falling to his own fear and anger resulted in him turning his back on his destiny, until he finally fulfilled it and redeemed himself decades later.

Meanwhile, Anakin was under Qui Gon's guidance for how long exactly? Couldn't have been very long at all. To compare the scant time those two spent together compared to the many years spent together by Anakin and Obi Wan is not fair.

Movies only have so long to show things. TPM still communicated certain things, such as how trusting and encouraging Qui-Gon was. Obi-Wan was directly contrasted with Qui-Gon, and shown to be a far more conservative follower of the Jedi Order's rules and doctrines. He's someone who believes in authority and falls in line with it.

Also, look at the way Qui-Gon acts when Obi-Wan argues with him, as opposed to the way Obi-Wan acts toward Anakin. Qui-Gon's a big softie, while Obi-Wan comes down hard and is occasionally a bit overly critical.

If Anakin had followed Yoda's advice, he would have been better off. Or if he had fully disclosed some very important details about his visions, then perhaps Yoda could have offered some better advice.

Anakin would've been better off following Yoda's advice, but that's because his own personal decisions were so completely horrible. And it's true that he didn't disclose everything. But look at the way Yoda acts. Yoda doesn't even ask for more details so that he could give some more specific advice. He just falls back on the Jedi doctrine of detachment.

I never claimed the Jedi were perfect, but saying they are flawed isn't saying much. But in this situation it wasn't any kind of institutional flaw that caused Anakin to fall to the Dark Side.

The Jedi didn't directly cause Anakin's fall (which was his own fault), but what they did contributed to it. If they didn't have a doctrine of self denial and celibacy (which immediately sounds wrong to most of the audience), he wouldn't have had to keep his marriage a secret. If Obi-Wan hadn't been such an authoritarian (something he learned because he saw Qui-Gon being alienated by the Council), Anakin probably wouldn't have grown up so bitter.

Uncle Owen wanted to keep Luke on the farm. When he dies, Luke leaves Tatooine and becomes a great hero. Vader (who's name comes from "vater," German for "father") was basically an abusive dad who kicked Luke's ass because his son didn't want to be just like him.

I greatly disagree with this simplistic interpretation.

What part do you disagree with? ANH made it clear that Uncle Owen was hiding Luke's true heritage from him, and just wanted to keep him confined on that boring farm. The movie was very sympathetic to Luke's desire to leave and see what was out there. Everyone says that ANH portrays a classic hero's journey, where a young kid rises from humble roots to achieve greatness. And Vader is clearly a horrible father.

That is all well and good but I am seeing a lot of background but not a lot of specific evidence to where the Jedi Order has become so arrogant that compassion is no longer practiced, which was what I was more specifically responding to.

Someone who says that "compassion is no longer practiced" is overstating things. But the prequels clearly show the Jedi Order believing in dispassionate detachment, being conformist and complacent, and probably believing their old doctrines too much.

Jim Raynor wrote: Anakin is the Chosen One, destined to bring balance to the Force and destroy the Sith. Qui-Gon was right to want him trained. A combination of Palpatine's efforts, the Jedi's mistakes, and Anakin falling to his own fear and anger resulted in him turning his back on his destiny, until he finally fulfilled it and redeemed himself decades later.

Anakin fulfilled that prophecy by helping to wipe out both orders, something that certainly wasn't in the Jedi's best interests.

Movies only have so long to show things. TPM still communicated certain things, such as how trusting and encouraging Qui-Gon was. Obi-Wan was directly contrasted with Qui-Gon, and shown to be a far more conservative follower of the Jedi Order's rules and doctrines. He's someone who believes in authority and falls in line with it.

That doesn't change the fact that Anakin spent no more than days with Qui Gonn while he spent years paired with Obi Wan. Remember that Qui Gon did forsee that Obi Wan would become a Jedi, and was confident enough in him as of TPM that I don't think Qui Gon would have wanted anyone else.

Also, look at the way Qui-Gon acts when Obi-Wan argues with him, as opposed to the way Obi-Wan acts toward Anakin. Qui-Gon's a big softie, while Obi-Wan comes down hard and is occasionally a bit overly critical.

But is Obi Wan wrong? Rarely. I understand your points but I think you don't hold Anakin nearly responsible enough for his actions.

Anakin would've been better off following Yoda's advice, but that's because his own personal decisions were so completely horrible. And it's true that he didn't disclose everything. But look at the way Yoda acts. Yoda doesn't even ask for more details so that he could give some more specific advice. He just falls back on the Jedi doctrine of detachment.

Again, was that doctrine wrong? Yoda was trying to comfort Anakin, and offer advice that had served well for centuries. It's not Yoda's fault that Anakin's selfishness had taken root and that he failed to see the wisdom being offered. Yoda's advice isn't entirely unlike advice you could give to anyone else. For all Yoda knew Anakin was referring to Obi Wan or another Jedi who was at risk of dying in battle. I would venture a guess that if Yodfa had actually known that Anakin was talking about his wife and unborn child (children as we all know it turned out) that he might have offered different advice.

The Jedi didn't directly cause Anakin's fall (which was his own fault), but what they did contributed to it. If they didn't have a doctrine of self denial and celibacy (which immediately sounds wrong to most of the audience), he wouldn't have had to keep his marriage a secret. If Obi-Wan hadn't been such an authoritarian (something he learned because he saw Qui-Gon being alienated by the Council), Anakin probably wouldn't have grown up so bitter.

I've never seen "celibacy" printed anywhere but i'm not looking to start that debate. There are two very good reasons for Jedi not to have families though. The first being that the family members of Jedi could become targets easily enough, which brings on a laundry list of problems. The second being that the tangible nature of the dark side creates a big risk for Jedi and having a family invites this. The massacres perpetrated by Luke's student Dolph are evidence enough of this.

What part do you disagree with? ANH made it clear that Uncle Owen was hiding Luke's true heritage from him, and just wanted to keep him confined on that boring farm. The movie was very sympathetic to Luke's desire to leave and see what was out there. Everyone says that ANH portrays a classic hero's journey, where a young kid rises from humble roots to achieve greatness.

Not that part.

And Vader is clearly a horrible father.

This part. I don't think Vader's parenting in this situation is relevant because he didn't even know he had a son until after Luke had already blown up the first Death Star. By then Luke is an adult and calling "VadeR" an abusive dad is oversimplifying what Vader's goals for Luke really were. One could argue that Vader never even really truly saw Luke as a son until Return of the Jedi, and then was redeemed.

Someone who says that "compassion is no longer practiced" is overstating things. But the prequels clearly show the Jedi Order believing in dispassionate detachment, being conformist and complacent, and probably believing their old doctrines too much.

I would agree that the Jedi Order had placed a lot of importance on detachment and that said detachment was not always to their advantage. But I also feel that their intentions and motivations behind doing so are perfectly reasonable, given the (and yes I know i'm repeating myself) tangible nature of the Dark Side and the risk of the consequences of a Jedi giving in to those temptations.

We look at Anakin Skywalker and say "well it was wrong of the Jedi ORder to make rules to deny him a family" when the simple truth is that Anakin's love for Padme was his undoing and as a result one of the most powerful Jedi fell to the Dark Side at a crucial moment in Galactic History, and helped usher in a regime responsible for uncounted deaths and widespread oppression.

Formless wrote:Maybe because the old order was a flawed institution with its head stuck so far up its own arrogant ass that it forgot the importance of compassion and couldn't figure out that some people do good not out of some abstract sense of duty but out of loyalty to people?

I think they did, hence why they outlawed it...with much justification considering what evil Anakin's foolish obsession brought over the universe. How old exactly was that no attachments rule? The old Jedi order did last thousands of years after all so they must have been doing something right.

We saw Jedi forming attachments and falling in love - and getting away with it. However, the jedi in question were all associates/underlings of one Tholme, who was known for being both the spymaster of the Jedi as well as a necessary asset. So it seems to me that the Jedi can get away with it as long as they find a willing superior, which suggests the doctrine of "no love" is not always enforced.

Let's not forget that the "no attachments" doctrine is also a choice that Jedi make. There is nothing stopping them from saying "I'd rather have a family, i'm out" and then just leaving the order. Only twenty Jedi Masters ever left the order because of this, but there is no confirmation on how many Knights or Padawans may have left for just such a reason. The busts of these Masters were kept in the Jedi Archives as a reminder that the Jedi Order did not always meet the needs of its constiuents. I believe it was "Dark Lord" or "Labyrinth of Evil" where this was discussed.

Dark Lord and the RotS novel both mention it. Though I believe it was twenty Jedi not twenty masters. Anakin considers becoming the 21st 'lost jedi' in the novel and it was a big plot point that he wasn't ranked as master.

For marriage and what not, there is a Jedi Master that did have a wife and kids, even when he was a Jedi. The conehead, and hell he was on the Jedi Council.

For marriage and what not, there is a Jedi Master that did have a wife and kids, even when he was a Jedi. The conehead, and hell he was on the Jedi Council.

Ki-Adi-Mundi, the Mormon of the Jedi, had 4 wives.

The explanation given was because his species has a ridiculously low male-birthrate. On the other hand (and this is purely my own logic) the reason he was allowed even this exception was because he was fairly emotionally grounded; he didn't fall or go crazy when his family was killed in the Clone Wars.

I heard that Traviss introduced a group of Jedi that were allowed to mary and form romantic attachments, and that Callista was part of it. Anyone know anything more about it?

Talhe wrote: I heard that Traviss introduced a group of Jedi that were allowed to mary and form romantic attachments, and that Callista was part of it. Anyone know anything more about it?

Traviss didn't create it entirely, she just based it off of what was already put into Children of the Jedi. Start by reading the Wookiepedia article on Callista.

Darth Fanboy wrote:

Jim Raynor wrote: Anakin is the Chosen One, destined to bring balance to the Force and destroy the Sith. Qui-Gon was right to want him trained. A combination of Palpatine's efforts, the Jedi's mistakes, and Anakin falling to his own fear and anger resulted in him turning his back on his destiny, until he finally fulfilled it and redeemed himself decades later.

Anakin fulfilled that prophecy by helping to wipe out both orders, something that certainly wasn't in the Jedi's best interests.

Lovely bit of irony, there.

When hearing Obiwan state that the Chosen One was meant to restore balance to the Force by destoying the sith, I really didn't get it. How does removing one side of this conflict restore balance? Destoying BOTH sides, now that's a balance.

Because as I understand it, the light side is all about balance while the dark side is about chaos and such. So having no dark side presences means no imbalances.

Darth Fanboy wrote:Let's not forget that the "no attachments" doctrine is also a choice that Jedi make. There is nothing stopping them from saying "I'd rather have a family, i'm out" and then just leaving the order. Only twenty Jedi Masters ever left the order because of this, but there is no confirmation on how many Knights or Padawans may have left for just such a reason. The busts of these Masters were kept in the Jedi Archives as a reminder that the Jedi Order did not always meet the needs of its constiuents. I believe it was "Dark Lord" or "Labyrinth of Evil" where this was discussed.

Woah, I thought one of the novels stated that those were Masters who fell to the Dark Side? Were they singled out solely for leaving the Order? A form of 'naming and shaming', perhaps? Leave the Jedi Order, even if not for any overtly evil reasons, and you'll be branded forever!

Gandalf wrote:Because as I understand it, the light side is all about balance while the dark side is about chaos and such. So having no dark side presences means no imbalances.

Ah, might I direct your attention to this week's quote above?