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I was rewatching the original movies recently, and I noticed something confusing; the way that the force is detected varies wildly at times.

For instance 1.) When luke fights vader on cloud city he doesn't realize vader's there until he starts breathing; Shouldn't Vader's aura give him away? Vader himself sensed Obi Wan's aura at two seperate points in episode 4, and was at pretty much the same range from obi wan that luke was from him. Hell, when Vader tries to sneak up on luke later in the fight, Luke detects him.

2.) Does the person really have to be actively using the force in order to be detected, cause I have no recollection whatsoever of that happening, and vader fails to notice when Luke Force leaps out of the pit.

3.) how do force visions work? Palpatine saw visions a few times, yet he fails to see that Luke can become a threat until episode v, when he mentions a "disturbance in the force."

They're great films, but those little bits are rather confusing.

Darth Yan wrote:1.) When luke fights vader on cloud city he doesn't realize vader's there until he starts breathing; Shouldn't Vader's aura give him away? Vader himself sensed Obi Wan's aura at two seperate points in episode 4, and was at pretty much the same range from obi wan that luke was from him. Hell, when Vader tries to sneak up on luke later in the fight, Luke detects him.

This stuff you can probably write off to different levels of expertise. Vader is a lot more experienced at being a Jedi in Star Wars than Luke is in Empire. Obi-Wan's force aura might have been stronger than Luke's too.

those little bits are rather confusing.

I think the force was a bit less super-powery in the original movies than in the prequels, a little less predictable.

Jedi and Sith may be able to sense and predict things, but they're clearly not omniscient and miss things. I like to think that a skilled Force user can detect the Force in others, and that it becomes easier to pick someone up if they actively use their powers. And although they came later, the prequels imply that a skilled Force user can also hide his ability from others.

Darth Yan wrote:I was rewatching the original movies recently, and I noticed something confusing; the way that the force is detected varies wildly at times.

For instance 1.) When luke fights vader on cloud city he doesn't realize vader's there until he starts breathing; Shouldn't Vader's aura give him away? Vader himself sensed Obi Wan's aura at two seperate points in episode 4, and was at pretty much the same range from obi wan that luke was from him. Hell, when Vader tries to sneak up on luke later in the fight, Luke detects him.

Yeah, pretty sure you can chalk this one up as inexperience, or due to the rushed training he actually got, perhaps a skill he never developed.

2.) Does the person really have to be actively using the force in order to be detected, cause I have no recollection whatsoever of that happening, and vader fails to notice when Luke Force leaps out of the pit.

A couple things here. First, it may come down to probability. Yoda says, "Difficult to see, the future is. Always moving." Or something close to that, which means a Jedi using the Force to see into the future may or may not get a complete view of it since it's always moving. Or you could go the other route, where in ROTS, it is explained in the novel that Obi Wan became one with the ship, the floor, the walls, the droids, and pretty much everything in the room on the bridge of Grevious's flag ship. As part of everything around, he just knew what they were going to do as they themselves decided.

In those two ways, a Jedi can predict what's going on around them. Either Vader stopped caring, thinking he had Luke dead to rights in the carbon freeze, or he saw an incomplete vision in the Force where he indeed got Luke, where as in reality, he did not.

3.) how do force visions work? Palpatine saw visions a few times, yet he fails to see that Luke can become a threat until episode v, when he mentions a "disturbance in the force."

They're great films, but those little bits are rather confusing.

The future is always in motion bit again. All the little things that had to happen to put Luke in a position to save Vader, all the little things that had to go into it to want Vader to be saved, had to click into place before it could be seen as a probably future for Palpatine. Also, and not everyone sees it this way, but the Force can be interrupted as 'god' in such as way as it's conscious and not just a 'power source' for Jedi. If you view it from this direction, the Force itself was using Palpatine, and Vader, and Luke to it's own ends and would be feeding info to Palpy so he would do what he was doing but not enough information that Palpy would see Vader betraying him.

I did notice that the visions involved people the seer had active connections with. Is that a legitimate excuse?

"magic" most likely, probably with some sort of mana bar or mental stamina. you don't want to drain your magic energy by having all of your abilities constantly active.

Disregarding later retcons for the sake of argument, I find we may infer a consistent theme to Luke and Anakin in this regard. Neither of them is capable (in their youth, at least) of truly mastering farseeing, although during the OT Vader is far closer to it. My impression is that both Anakin and Luke want to change things from happening - they rail at possible futures and seek to prevent them, and they do not calmly face what might come. They feel powerless to stop what happens, so they try instead of doing.

In contrast, Palpatine and Yoda have both, each in their own way, overcome that tendency. Yoda managed it by truly accepting that what would be, would be; Palpatine did it through his faith in his own cunning, foresight and mastery, and because you can't render a complete egomaniac powerless unless his personal power is attacked. Regardless, Yoda and the Emperor are both able to look upon a future event without instantly launching into a desperate attempt at changing it. Anakin and Luke couldn't do that, because they were both too close to remain dispassionate.

For instance 1.) When luke fights vader on cloud city he doesn't realize vader's there until he starts breathing; Shouldn't Vader's aura give him away? Vader himself sensed Obi Wan's aura at two seperate points in episode 4, and was at pretty much the same range from obi wan that luke was from him. Hell, when Vader tries to sneak up on luke later in the fight, Luke detects him.

I always got the impression they could sense each other's presence, but were not exactly able to pinpoint where the other is at any given moment. Vader sensed Obi Wan the moment he entered the Death Star docking bay where the Falcon was parked, but couldn't put his finger on it right away. In Yoda's own words, "you will know when you are calm. At peace." He was referring to telling the good side from the bad, but an implied sense of calm seems to enhance the focus, and Luke definitely did not seem calm when he was wandering around Cloud City's dark corridors looking for a Dark Lord. He's probably still worrying about Han and Leia the whole time instead of focusing completely on Vader ("never his mind on where he was, what he was doing"). His training allowed him to survive as far as he did, but he is visibly shaking even before Vader amputates his hand.

Force sensing has always been inconsistent even for the greatest of Jedi and Sith. Also, Luke and Vader's connection in Empire and ROTJ was unusually strong, as the Emperor himself observed: "I have felt him." "Strange that I have not."

Visions of the future are even more unpredictable. Luke's only significant vision, that of his friends in pain in Cloud City, was essentially sent to him intentionally by Vader who tortured Han specifically for that purpose. Vader may have even directly broadcast Han's pain into the Force. The Emperor, on the other hand, is the all time champion at seeing the future, at times rivalling the Atreides dynasty (such as knowing that sending Obi-Wan and Anakin to guard Padme would be very beneficial to himself in the medium and long run) and his visions seem to have been accurate right up to Vader's unseen betrayal.

luke had it before they even arrived.

wow, i guess it is easy to miss alot. then again there are people who think that star wars promotes conservative idealogy.

When did palpatine say "strange that I have not felt him"? Vader sure as hell didn't notice luke till he was a short distance away (he didn't know luke was in system till an aide told him the xwing was in system, and he had to smoke luke out at dagobah

Darth Yan wrote:When did palpatine say "strange that I have not felt him"? Vader sure as hell didn't notice luke till he was a short distance away (he didn't know luke was in system till an aide told him the xwing was in system, and he had to smoke luke out at dagobah

That'd be the part where that quote is actually from ROTJ
'A small rebel force has penetrated the shield and landed on Endor.'
'Yes, I know.'
'My son is with them.'
'Are you sure?'
'I have *felt* him, my master.'
'Strange that I have not.'

Darth Yan wrote:For instance 1.) When luke fights vader on cloud city he doesn't realize vader's there until he starts breathing; Shouldn't Vader's aura give him away? Vader himself sensed Obi Wan's aura at two seperate points in episode 4, and was at pretty much the same range from obi wan that luke was from him. Hell, when Vader tries to sneak up on luke later in the fight, Luke detects him.

When it comes to Vader and Kenobi, I think it's important to keep in mind that there is a considerable history between them. As a powerful force user, I'm sure Vader senses different things over time but it's the familiarity of Kenobi's presence that gave him pause. Luke is a different character and may not conjure up the same reactions and emotions when Vader senses him.

Darth Yan wrote:luke had it before they even arrived.

To quote Doc Brown: "You're not thinking 4th dimensionally!" Force visions don't appear to follow the normal rules of causality, so it is possible Luke picked up Vader's hypothetically intentional broadcast before it was technically made. Of course, there's really no way to prove that.

Anyway, I don't think Vader was able to tell precisely where Obi-wan was, just that he was presumably on board the station. In that case, Luke not knowing that Vader was waiting for him makes sense; he could sense Vader was nearby, but nearby is pretty vague.

Darth Yan wrote:When luke fights vader on cloud city he doesn't realize vader's there until he starts breathing; Shouldn't Vader's aura give him away?

Palpatine managed to conceal his own force aura for years from the Jedi, maybe Vader can make use of the Dark Side's shroud as well. In ROTJ he wanted Luke to come to him, explaining why Luke could detect him there.

Vader himself sensed Obi Wan's aura at two seperate points in episode 4, and was at pretty much the same range from obi wan that luke was from him.

Not only that, he could even eventually pinpoint where Obi Wan was and intercept him on the way back to the hangar. I guess that's a result of the close relationship they used to have.

3.) how do force visions work? Palpatine saw visions a few times, yet he fails to see that Luke can become a threat until episode v, when he mentions a "disturbance in the force."

Honestly? I think the Force just likes to dick with people. It gave both Anakin and Luke visions that resulted in malady for them and even Palpatine who came to rely on it quite a bit got eventually shafted. Not a single explicitely mentioned vision of the force in the movie series compelled people to change the course for the better. Star Wars has a very "greek" attitude when it comes to visions it seems. Try to avert fate and you will get a force bolt shoved up your ass.

one more question. from what I see you don't have to utilize the force to be detected? Is that true or false?

Darth Yan wrote:one more question. from what I see you don't have to utilize the force to be detected? Is that true or false?

I would say it depends on the method. Seeing the future and where that particular person is, with is more of a passive scan if you will, or actively searching the Force for him/her.

Okay. I'm just confused cause Elfdart made a comment about how you must be reasonably powerful or actively using it. Yet when I rewatched them I never saw vader detecting anyone based on them actively tapping into the force.

Darth Yan wrote:Okay. I'm just confused cause Elfdart made a comment about how you must be reasonably powerful or actively using it. Yet when I rewatched them I never saw vader detecting anyone based on them actively tapping into the force.

Reasonably powerful--Vader sensed Luke was strong with the Force in the trench in ANH even before Luke turns off his targeting computer and actively uses the Force alone to assist him.

To be fair, it could simply be that Luke had been unconsciously using the Force to augment his piloting the entire time. Vader, who used to do the same thing in the podraces, might have picked up on that. Of course, the fact that Luke wasn't able to shake that one TIE earlier in the battle suggests otherwise.

Darth Yan wrote:3.) how do force visions work? Palpatine saw visions a few times, yet he fails to see that Luke can become a threat until episode v, when he mentions a "disturbance in the force."

Perhaps Luke didn't truly become a threat until after Obi-Wan appeared and told him to go to Dagobah. That's what set in motion the sequence events that would culminate in Luke finally becoming a Jedi, whereas he had remained untrained the entire preceding three years after Yavin and therefore of no real concern to the emperor.

Think you actively have to try and hide yourself, wasn't Kenobi known for his stealth, he sneaks around near Dooku and Mace jumps him. Could also be a passive vs active thing, when a Jedi really needed to hide they seemed to be able to do it. Was the shroud of the darkside ever explained? Was that all Palpatine, he didn't seem like it took much for him to keep that up if it was from him at all.

Meest wrote:Think you actively have to try and hide yourself, wasn't Kenobi known for his stealth, he sneaks around near Dooku and Mace jumps him. Could also be a passive vs active thing, when a Jedi really needed to hide they seemed to be able to do it. Was the shroud of the darkside ever explained? Was that all Palpatine, he didn't seem like it took much for him to keep that up if it was from him at all.

I think the shroud of the dark side was mainly the result of all the bloodshed and chaos of the Clone Wars. That caused the Force to become opaque even before it truly started.

Are you sure about that? The Clone Wars weren't that much worse than some of the other conflicts in the EU, but I don't remember anyone mentioning that their abilities were clouded elsewhere.

Eframepilot wrote:

Meest wrote:Think you actively have to try and hide yourself, wasn't Kenobi known for his stealth, he sneaks around near Dooku and Mace jumps him. Could also be a passive vs active thing, when a Jedi really needed to hide they seemed to be able to do it. Was the shroud of the darkside ever explained? Was that all Palpatine, he didn't seem like it took much for him to keep that up if it was from him at all.

I think the shroud of the dark side was mainly the result of all the bloodshed and chaos of the Clone Wars. That caused the Force to become opaque even before it truly started.

Really? Cause the two ideas I see floated are the 1) Darkside Shroud is inhibiting the Light Side, or 2) the Force as a whole is keeping the end game away from both sides, light side specifically and only some of it to the dark side.