How Many Star Destroyers?

[Axis Kast]

I read somewhere that up to twenty-five thousand Imperial-class Star Destroyers – not to mention countless tens of thousands of other support vessels from Victory-class Star Destroyers to Interdictor Cruisers on down – were in service during the height of Palpatine’s Galactic Empire.

If this is so, why do we constantly hear of the dirth of Star Destroyers among Imperial warlord armadas or even the present-day Rim Remnant? While thousands of those vessels might have succumbed to the attrition of time (without the fleet yards of Kuat, Fondor, or Bilbringi, it is conceivable to assume some collapsed into disrepair), outright combat (again, one could make a circumstantial argument that many Star Destroyers were destroyed during “clean-up” by the New Republic or suddenly independent sector fleets emboldened by the Emperor’s death), surrender (this is presumably the most common result; Star Destroyers abandoned (en masse) by their crews for the scrap yards at the close of the Galactic Civil War), or, more likely, incorporation into the fleets of petty warlords who quickly committed them to destruction via constant infighting. But even with all these variables, we’re still talking about a fleet of twenty-five thousand starships of the Imperial-class alone.

What happened, primarily, to the bulk of the Star Destroyers? Did more than twenty-four thousand fall prey to the scenarios I have envisioned above? Secondarily, what of their supporting elements? Even the Victory-class must have been far easier to operate and maintain. Why don’t we see these vessels in larger numbers only twenty years or so after the Second Death Star’s ultimate destruction? I find it hard to believe that they wouldn’t have been marshaled into a far larger force.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

AFAIK, after Endor, every Imperial commander in the Empire grabbed as many ships as he could and splintered off into warlord factions. So now we've got 25,000 ISDs split up amongst hundreds of squabbling Imperials. Youc an imagine how easy it would have been to focus NR fleets onto relativley small groups of ships and capture/destroy them. Small time warlords run out of fuel and stuff quickly, and their ships end up being scuttled. Big time warlords would start abosrbing the smaller ones, but usually their groups are still unimpressive next to the NR fleets.

Eventually, after all the small timers are dealt with, you have a few dozen warlords with a hundred ISDs or so and a couple thousand support ships uner there command, like Zsinj. But as seen time and time again these warlords fuck things up and lose all their ships.

Next Daala kills the top 12 warlords and reunites their forces for an attack on the NR. She loses badly, and so now the NR has practically ALL Imperial ships in one place.

As the NR begins refitting ISDs for their purposes, the remaining warlords face a daunting number of ships. Not skilled in guerrila like teh Rebels, they rush headlong into battle and lose all their ships too.

I can only guess that this may have been how the NR grinded down there numbers from 25,000 to almost nothing in a few years.

[Axis Kast]

But even Zsinj and Isard - two of the most successful warlords - were able to amass only a handful - we're talking around five - Imperial-class Star Destroyers each.

I suppose your assumption is the same as mine? That attrition and infighting really did ware down the force numbers - as difficult as it is for either of us to swallow that kind of reasoning?

[Sea Skimmer]

After Endor there was a month of full-scale civil war across the Empire as basically every significant commander fought. The fleet basically destroyed its self. It might take a long time to destroy 25,000 ISD's with other resources, but if 12,500 start fighting the other half you could have the whole force totally destroyed in minutes.

It also seems much of the Empires heavy capital ship strength was called to Byss by the Emperor, where they all died when the planet exploded. Combined that with the heavy's being prime targets during that one month, and we have a good explanation of why Thawn and other Imperial commanders generally had nothing bigger then an ISD to work with.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I read somewhere that up to twenty-five thousand Imperial-class Star Destroyers – not to mention countless tens of thousands of other support vessels from Victory-class Star Destroyers to Interdictor Cruisers on down – were in service during the height of Palpatine’s Galactic Empire.

If this is so, why do we constantly hear of the dirth of Star Destroyers among Imperial warlord armadas or even the present-day Rim Remnant? While thousands of those vessels might have succumbed to the attrition of time (without the fleet yards of Kuat, Fondor, or Bilbringi, it is conceivable to assume some collapsed into disrepair), outright combat (again, one could make a circumstantial argument that many Star Destroyers were destroyed during “clean-up” by the New Republic or suddenly independent sector fleets emboldened by the Emperor’s death), surrender (this is presumably the most common result; Star Destroyers abandoned (en masse) by their crews for the scrap yards at the close of the Galactic Civil War), or, more likely, incorporation into the fleets of petty warlords who quickly committed them to destruction via constant infighting. But even with all these variables, we’re still talking about a fleet of twenty-five thousand starships of the Imperial-class alone.

What happened, primarily, to the bulk of the Star Destroyers? Did more than twenty-four thousand fall prey to the scenarios I have envisioned above? Secondarily, what of their supporting elements? Even the Victory-class must have been far easier to operate and maintain. Why don’t we see these vessels in larger numbers only twenty years or so after the Second Death Star’s ultimate destruction? I find it hard to believe that they wouldn’t have been marshaled into a far larger force.

They lose territory this whole time.

By the NJO the Empire has only 8 sectors. A few hundred ISDs is to be expected.

[Axis Kast]

The Empire as of NJO has a dozen or so - not hundreds - of Star Destroyers.

I still find it difficult to believe that 25,000 disappeared so fast.

Also - because I didn't read the series -, did Daala die or just vanish into hyperspace?

[Darth Garden Gnome]

The Empire as of NJO has a dozen or so - not hundreds - of Star Destroyers.

I still find it difficult to believe that 25,000 disappeared so fast.

Also - because I didn't read the series -, did Daala die or just vanish into hyperspace?

I don't think that a dozen ISDs could've held off the Vong at Bastion for more than a few minutes. Then again, I haven't read Remenant yet, so feel free to provide numbers if they are available.

Daala dissapeared into hyperspace, and has yet to be heard from again. Which is perefectly fine with me-BASTARD CHILD OF KJA!!!

[Illuminatus Primus]

The Empire as of NJO has a dozen or so - not hundreds - of Star Destroyers.

I still find it difficult to believe that 25,000 disappeared so fast.

Also - because I didn't read the series -, did Daala die or just vanish into hyperspace?

No. The Empire has a couple hundred Star Destroyers.

Pelleaon says so in Vision of the Future.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

No. The Empire has a couple hundred Star Destroyers.

Pelleaon says so in Vision of the Future.

VOTF takes place about 5 years before the NJO. Its quite possible that the Imperials have lost numerous ships since then. But saying that went from one hundred to a dozen in 5 years is pretty absurd, considering that at the time of VOTF the NR signed a treaty with the Remenant.

[Axis Kast]

Where in 'Vision of the Future'?

SPOILER

During the course of 'Remnant', we learn that the Imperials must attempt to stave off a Yhuuzan Vong invasion with the help of only five - six at best - Star Destroyers. A further one is at their fall-back point. We've seen only one or two more besides - and I *think*, though I'm not certain, a Super Star Destroyer as well (in prior books).

/END SPOILER

Hm. I wonder if we'll meet up with Dalaa again soon.

[Sea Skimmer]

The Empire has a minimal squadron of ISD's and an SSD guarding Bastion in Destinys Way. Sounds like more shitty coordination between NJO authors, if it's true.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Where in 'Vision of the Future'?

SPOILER

During the course of 'Remnant', we learn that the Imperials must attempt to stave off a Yhuuzan Vong invasion with the help of only five - six at best - Star Destroyers. A further one is at their fall-back point. We've seen only one or two more besides - and I *think*, though I'm not certain, a Super Star Destroyer as well (in prior books).

/END SPOILER

Hm. I wonder if we'll meet up with Dalaa again soon.

Behind the scenes fighting, and fighting up until the force arrived at Bastion.

EU authors are morons when it comes to scale.

They have amnesia regarding TPM's 1000s of 3.1 km torodial battleships and the 30 or so ISDs used by Palpatine merely to contain a pityful group of Rebels in the ROTJ.

One must be reminded that this may have been the personal force under Pelleaon and there could have been other elements "off screen" or "holding off pincer fleets" or who knows.

Even Thrawn's personal command had only half a dozen SDs or so. Dumb, I know, but the Empire easily had 10-5,000 SDs at that point.

[Admiral Johnason]

I read somewhere that up to twenty-five thousand Imperial-class Star Destroyers – not to mention countless tens of thousands of other support vessels from Victory-class Star Destroyers to Interdictor Cruisers on down – were in service during the height of Palpatine’s Galactic Empire.

If this is so, why do we constantly hear of the dirth of Star Destroyers among Imperial warlord armadas or even the present-day Rim Remnant? While thousands of those vessels might have succumbed to the attrition of time (without the fleet yards of Kuat, Fondor, or Bilbringi, it is conceivable to assume some collapsed into disrepair), outright combat (again, one could make a circumstantial argument that many Star Destroyers were destroyed during “clean-up” by the New Republic or suddenly independent sector fleets emboldened by the Emperor’s death), surrender (this is presumably the most common result; Star Destroyers abandoned (en masse) by their crews for the scrap yards at the close of the Galactic Civil War), or, more likely, incorporation into the fleets of petty warlords who quickly committed them to destruction via constant infighting. But even with all these variables, we’re still talking about a fleet of twenty-five thousand starships of the Imperial-class alone.

What happened, primarily, to the bulk of the Star Destroyers? Did more than twenty-four thousand fall prey to the scenarios I have envisioned above? Secondarily, what of their supporting elements? Even the Victory-class must have been far easier to operate and maintain. Why don’t we see these vessels in larger numbers only twenty years or so after the Second Death Star’s ultimate destruction? I find it hard to believe that they wouldn’t have been marshaled into a far larger force.

During the height of the Empire, there were arounf 2,500,000 SDs. By the time of the Hand of Thrawn Series, that number had dropped to 25,000.

[Axis Kast]

I suppose we all underestimate scale. At the outside, force attrition (combat and maintenance requirements), the scrapping of the galaxy’s huge military-industrial complex after Palpatine’s rise, and sporadic infighting as well as isolated destruction or salvage of the Empire’s once-great fleet must have dictated its loss.

We are agreed however that the books do a horrible job. The Star Destroyer we once saw in Destiny’s Way made absolutely no appearance at Bastion. And the way the story was written (Remnant, that is), it seemed as if the Imperials would have put only their strongest foot forward.

At the height of the Galactic Civil War, Palpatine put forth a sector fleet – the equivalent of twenty-four Star Destroyers plus his command ship, the Executor. I suppose, for what it’s worth, I should point out that even West End Games classified the sector fleet as something most populations never see in a lifetime. It marks the passing of even one single vessel as a rare event – let alone two dozen. That said, I suppose we think of the Empire on too small a scale. With hundreds of millions of worlds – tens of thousands of star systems in the Remnant alone -, perhaps we’re out of scope?

[Commander_Arvel_Crynyd]

well in darksaber admiral daala amassed the entire imperial remnant in the core which consisted of 112 Victory star destroyers, 45 imperial star destroyers and the super star destroyer knight hammer

[Stormbringer]

The Empire has a minimal squadron of ISD's and an SSD guarding Bastion in Destinys Way. Sounds like more shitty coordination between NJO authors, if it's true.

Actually it's not that ridiculous. The if the Remanent has say 100 worlds (and that's probably low end) it's still mean two ISDs per plant. Maybe three as production gears up.

Mostly likely it's the same sort of situation that prevailed in the Original Empire. Military and political necessity forced Palleon to put a fair amount of covering forces on his worlds with the consequence that any concentration of forces is going to be pretty damn weak.

[Illuminatus Primus]

During the height of the Empire, there were arounf 2,500,000 SDs. By the time of the Hand of Thrawn Series, that number had dropped to 25,000.

I need what you're smoking.

Now.

[Admiral Johnason]

During the height of the Empire, there were arounf 2,500,000 SDs. By the time of the Hand of Thrawn Series, that number had dropped to 25,000.

I need what you're smoking.

Now.

It was in the first chapters of Spectre of the Past. And I do not smoke.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

It was in the first chapters of Spectre of the Past. And I do not smoke.

Sorry bubba, but in the first chapters of Heir to the Empire, it states that there are 25,000 ISDs left. If you think there's a different number stated in VOTF somewhere (which I don't recall ever seeing) please post a quote.

[Trytostaydead]

Also, bear in mind.. that MOST of the fleet was dispersed to keep systems from trying to kill each other. At any given point, the rebellion was only fighting a very very small portion of the Empire's armada, most of their energy and resources was in maintaining a forced tranquility.

Also, bear in mind.. even when Thrawn himself took over with fully a quarter of the Empire remaining, you never see him deploying more than a handful of Star Destroyers at a time, even on multiple pronged missions. Even when assaulting Coruscant, the CAPITAL of the NR, he deploys mainly Katana dreadnaughts. Of course, the actual effectiveness of an ISD varies between authors (except for VSDs, for some reason everyone agrees they were weak as shit). Zahn seems to have made ISDs as a highly effective mobile siege platform, while others have SDs being blown to shit left and right.

[Crayz9000]

Vision of the Future put the amount of ISDs held by the Remnant at 200, and the previous amount (at the Empire's height) at 25,000.

Neither figure makes much sense.

[Trytostaydead]

Vision of the Future put the amount of ISDs held by the Remnant at 200, and the previous amount (at the Empire's height) at 25,000.

Neither figure makes much sense.

Perhaps the 25,000 SDs were SDs that were those that could be pulled out of their sector fleets for various military actions? Like there could be hundreds of thousands of SDs, but only 25,000 could be pulled into task forces without leaving areas undefended or unpacified?

[Crayz9000]

That's one way to rationalize it, and IIRC that's the approach Marina took in her Imperial Fleet Size Calculations.

[Captain tycho]

I read somewhere that up to twenty-five thousand Imperial-class Star Destroyers – not to mention countless tens of thousands of other support vessels from Victory-class Star Destroyers to Interdictor Cruisers on down – were in service during the height of Palpatine’s Galactic Empire.

If this is so, why do we constantly hear of the dirth of Star Destroyers among Imperial warlord armadas or even the present-day Rim Remnant? While thousands of those vessels might have succumbed to the attrition of time (without the fleet yards of Kuat, Fondor, or Bilbringi, it is conceivable to assume some collapsed into disrepair), outright combat (again, one could make a circumstantial argument that many Star Destroyers were destroyed during “clean-up” by the New Republic or suddenly independent sector fleets emboldened by the Emperor’s death), surrender (this is presumably the most common result; Star Destroyers abandoned (en masse) by their crews for the scrap yards at the close of the Galactic Civil War), or, more likely, incorporation into the fleets of petty warlords who quickly committed them to destruction via constant infighting. But even with all these variables, we’re still talking about a fleet of twenty-five thousand starships of the Imperial-class alone.

What happened, primarily, to the bulk of the Star Destroyers? Did more than twenty-four thousand fall prey to the scenarios I have envisioned above? Secondarily, what of their supporting elements? Even the Victory-class must have been far easier to operate and maintain. Why don’t we see these vessels in larger numbers only twenty years or so after the Second Death Star’s ultimate destruction? I find it hard to believe that they wouldn’t have been marshaled into a far larger force.

During the height of the Empire, there were arounf 2,500,000 SDs. By the time of the Hand of Thrawn Series, that number had dropped to 25,000.

2 million ISDs? Where the fuck are getting that from?
And what kind of drugs are you doing?

[Vympel]

There were 25,000 Star Destroyers. That's it. Just 25,000. The official evidence is quite explicit.