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what are the capabilities of the armor and weapons of the Clone troopers and what training did they get? I need this for a debate over at Spacebattles some believe a Colonial Marine force from Aliens could beat clone troopers

In my opinion it canot be clearly decided. The clonetroopers' weapons seemed to have longer range. Their armor can stop fragments, but I higly doubt it could stop the fire from a pulse rifle. The marines' armor is very energy resistant but it isn't enough. For offensive purposes I would use the clonetroopers with speeder bikes and marines with autoguns for defense. But this is subjective, of course.

Hmmm...the training should matter that much...unless they is something showing Clone Troopers breaking ranks en masse.

As for the weapons the Clone have them beat mostly because the speed of such weaponry(km/sec in AoTC)

Plus if they are anywhere near level of Stormtrooper weaponry.

I'm sure someone here has far better calcs.

Typhonis 1 wrote:what are the capabilities of the armor and weapons of the Clone troopers and what training did they get? I need this for a debate over at Spacebattles some believe a Colonial Marine force from Aliens could beat clone troopers

Is this Clonetroopers as seen in the movie? Or are these neutered troops without Gunship/walker/etc backup?

vakundok wrote:In my opinion it canot be clearly decided. The clonetroopers' weapons seemed to have longer range. Their armor can stop fragments, but I higly doubt it could stop the fire from a pulse rifle.

Then I'd call you wrong(there's been quite a few threads on this), if anything, SW personal armor has alot easier time stopping KE weapons than energy weapons.

clonetroopers have what they hit Genois with cept for space support the Colonial Marines have there universes dropships and armor

Typhonis 1 wrote:clonetroopers have what they hit Genois with cept for space support the Colonial Marines have there universes dropships and armor

In that case, the gunships, AT-TEs, and SPHA-Ts all help the Clones hip the marines a MASSIVE new one.

His Divine Shadow wrote:

vakundok wrote:In my opinion it canot be clearly decided. The clonetroopers' weapons seemed to have longer range. Their armor can stop fragments, but I higly doubt it could stop the fire from a pulse rifle.

Then I'd call you wrong(there's been quite a few threads on this), if anything, SW personal armor has alot easier time stopping KE weapons than energy weapons.

Really? Despite stormtroopers were taken out by ewok slings and rocks thrown by ewoks? (And Wicket did not dashed his own head.)
EDIT: And nearby explosions as well ...
I forgot about the rate of fire and the (maybe double) 40mm grenade launcher of the pulse rifle. In the case of unsupported foot troopers I think the clonetroopers only chance is to take out the marines from range beyond the range of the pulse rifles (it is 400 or 500m I do not know exactly). So, I would use the marines as foot infantry.
The dropships have 8 heavy and 32 "smaller" rockets at least. Anti missile system is unconfirmed but likely. The heavies are at least as large as those of the gunships and it seems that full volley can be launched at once. I do not think a gunship would survive half of such a volley. However the range of those rockets is unknown. If longer than the range of the beam weapons of the gunships the dropships would rule the battlefield. If not, they would be fried.

Really? Despite stormtroopers were taken out by ewok slings and rocks thrown by ewoks?

That never happened, the armor held fine, the momentum and concussion and such threw the stormies off balance, we never really see them stay down for certain either(scene changes too fast).

Pulse rifles'd(which are just 5.56mm bullets IIRC) just go "pling pling" of the armor unless they hit a joint, and we're comparing them against blasters, solo's handblaster could probably pierce the armor of a modern tank if the movies are any indication(which they are ofcourse, highest canon).

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... sc-SW.html
Scroll down to the section on stormie armor

EDIT: And nearby explosions as well ...

Concussive force throwing them of balance and/or shrapnel hitting the joints, the armor itself is never under any problems.

If longer than the range of the beam weapons of the gunships the dropships would rule the battlefield. If not, they would be fried.

LAAT's have shields.

Their beam weapons are limited only by accuracy and the curvature of the planet, their missile range is unknown, though if one where to extrapolate from other WEG material it can be somewhere around 40km, they got variable yield missiles with a max focused charge of 100kg and several smaller .1kt rockets.

His Divine Shadow wrote:

Really? Despite stormtroopers were taken out by ewok slings and rocks thrown by ewoks?

That never happened, the armor held fine, the momentum and concussion and such threw the stormies off balance, we never really see them stay down for certain either(scene changes too fast).

The scene showed Wicket for a few second. And the ewoks throwing rocks even longer. There was no stormtroopers standing up and fire back during this time.
When Choowie got the walker we saw a nearby explosion and a stormtrooper fell some moments after and toward the explosion. It canot be a simple out of balance situation.

Pulse rifles'd(which are just 5.56mm bullets IIRC) just go "pling pling" of the armor unless they hit a joint, and we're comparing them against blasters, solo's handblaster could probably pierce the armor of a modern tank if the movies are any indication(which they are ofcourse, highest canon).

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... sc-SW.html
Scroll down to the section on stormie armor

Well I thought that the pulse rifles were 10mm. But it is possible that I remember wrong ...
I think a present day tank could survive the trees crashed the AT-ST and the armor of the AT-ST seems to be more powerfull than the stormtrooper armor.

EDIT: Please, forget everything what I wrote! You are right! Stormtrooper armor (likely clonetrooper armor as well) is more powerfull than the armor of everything we know or seen in the Alliens triology. Also, shields can withstand anything the marines could have and the beam weapons has no real range limitations. So, the marines would have no chance.

The scene showed Wicket for a few second. And the ewoks throwing rocks even longer. There was no stormtroopers standing up and fire back during this time

No, they where being pelted with rocks that weigh atleast several kilograms, a good hit on the head could break your neck, the momentum of the impact would definitly knock you down and shake you up a bit on the inside.
Just because the armor protects against impacts as in not letting them getting through. doesn't mean it can nullify momentum and become some invulnerability device.

When Choowie got the walker we saw a nearby explosion and a stormtrooper fell some moments after and toward the explosion. It canot be a simple out of balance situation

I will recheck that but I cannot remember it, if so, it was either shrapnel, likely hitting the joints, you don't get up after that, or it was concussive force from the pressure of the explosion showing the stormie away.

There are no examples of stormie armor being penetrated in the movies by KE weapons.

I think a present day tank could survive the trees crashed the AT-ST and the armor of the AT-ST seems to be more powerfull than the stormtrooper armor

Yes it would, but why do you compare the Imperial equivalent of a HumVee to a tank?

And thats a really shitty analogy, mostly because they're nothing alike, two different kind of armor, not that the AT-ST has any real armor.

And how on earth does that compare to being hit with a bullet? A bullet has very very little momentum, those logs where all about momentum, hitting two flat unarmored sides.

Stormie armor protected against a sharp impactor that was powerfull enough to pick a guy up in the air and throw him so hard against a wall he blacked out, the armor had only a little "nick".

vakundok wrote: Really? Despite stormtroopers were taken out by ewok slings and rocks thrown by ewoks? (And Wicket did not dashed his own head.)

It doesn't matter if your helmet is absolutely unbreakable, a rock thrown on your head will STILL knock you off balance, and if it's large enough, will knock you unconcious. Basic physics.

I forgot about the rate of fire and the (maybe double) 40mm grenade launcher of the pulse rifle. In the case of unsupported foot troopers I think the clonetroopers only chance is to take out the marines from range beyond the range of the pulse rifles (it is 400 or 500m I do not know exactly)

Clonetroopers kick the shit out of Colonial marines. Their weapons are inferior. A Clonetrooper rifle has more destructive power than a pulse rifle, more range (10km on tripod) and those 40mm grenades will not be effective against clonetrooper armor (whose qualities are known to us via official material).

So, I would use the marines as foot infantry.

Why? The Clonetroopers have superior armor, weapons, situational awareness (their helmets) and support. Colonial Marines have crappy cameras, infrared, and radios. Picture a bunch of colonial marines in the place of the Clonetroopers at Geonosis- specifically- when the TradeFed Core ship crashes. Would they remain combat effective in that massive storm of dust? No.

The dropships have 8 heavy and 32 "smaller" rockets at least. Anti missile system is unconfirmed but likely.

There is nothing to indicate that dropships have any anti-missile system.

The heavies are at least as large as those of the gunships and it seems that full volley can be launched at once.I do not think a gunship would survive half of such a volley.

Why not? Gunships are shielded and have vastly superior weapons. We know the capabilities of gunship missiles and they vastly exceed that of the USMC in both power and fire control.

However the range of those rockets is unknown. If longer than the range of the beam weapons of the gunships the dropships would rule the battlefield. If not, they would be fried.

The missiles can also be used as anti-air weapons- the beam turrets are not the only defence.

Typhonis 1 wrote:what are the capabilities of the armor and weapons of the Clone troopers and what training did they get? I need this for a debate over at Spacebattles some believe a Colonial Marine force from Aliens could beat clone troopers

USCM weapons are not like modern weapons. Those are 10mm rifle rounds with AP capability. It might take sustained fire to penetrate the Clonetrooper armor, but even hits that don't penetrate are going to be hurting the clone. The 35mm grenades are going to be even worse.

a 180 grain(one mass figure I found for a 10mm) bullet at 1000m/s would have 12kg*m/s of momentum, now due to the nature of clone armor, it would not really hurt, it's rigid, unlike kevlar, but it'd definitly knock a human down.

solo's handblaster could probably pierce the armor of a modern tank if the movies are any indication

Thats...an interesting way of looking at the movies.....

Yes it would, but why do you compare the Imperial equivalent of a HumVee to a tank?

I think it's more like the equivalent of a jeep. If an AT-AT is the equivalent of an APC, the AT-ST is the little jeep with a machingun running around over infantry and hoping a rocket doesn't come its way.

vakundok: Here's an experiment for you to try. Go get a kevlar vest. Put it on. Go out to the highway. Wait for a truck to come. Jump in front of it.

According to you, if kevlar is so good, it should be able to stop the truck dead in its tracks. Please tell us if your hypothesis holds up.

white_rabbit wrote:Thats...an interesting way of looking at the movies.....

Oh please, thats so cheap.

Thats...he only objective way bucko.

Torso sized holes in what is likely concrete from hand blasters, armored doors being blown to smithereens with the equivalent of a SMG(the ANH novellization has several incidents where hand weapons are used to melt doors, keep in mind what the Lightsaber in TPM did to that door required over a hundred megajoules).

Then one considers second-tier canon, and we have a probot vaporizing a wampa with a fullpower blast.

Then just for kicks we can look at the lightsaber from TPM that demonstrated to be able to keep a powerpack worth several hundred megajoules atleast in a small cylindrical space, that speaks volumes for energy density that can be used in SW weapons, since it gives them the ability to keep the required energy for their weapons in small powerpacks.

On the whole it's very clear.

And we've not even gone into the official material even.


EDIT:
Oh and just becase it could pierce the armor doesn't mean it'll blow the tank up, thats what you where thinking I bet.
More like a crater or hole on the armor is what one ought to expect, nothing that'll hurt the tank, not without many repeated shots.

Durandal wrote:vakundok: Here's an experiment for you to try. Go get a kevlar vest. Put it on. Go out to the highway. Wait for a truck to come. Jump in front of it.

According to you, if kevlar is so good, it should be able to stop the truck dead in its tracks. Please tell us if your hypothesis holds up.

Please? Kevlar? According to me?

Side question: Has anyone seen at least one occassion when a blast from a (hand held) blaster goes through a person (in and out)?

What era of Coloniual Marine are we talking about? Later on in the Aliens EU books the Marines are packing plasma rifles that can melt a tank.

Typhonis 1 wrote:clonetroopers have what they hit Genois with cept for space support the Colonial Marines have there universes dropships and armor

AT-TE is well more than powerful enough to defeat them. Consider this, Hailfire Droids were using missles similar to LAATs that were similar in most respects, save for the purple glow and sooty contrails. The missles aboard a LAAT are 100 kilotons, forcused to some-odd degree in order to deliver an enormous amount of energy all in one place. To that end, we can speculate that the AT-TE killed at Geonosis was done so with a 100KT missle! Even if considerably less than that, I don't think there are any sources claiming KT level weapons used by the USCM.

If we can consider the AT-TE similar to the AT-AT in armor, the numbers are even higher. In Isards Revenge, it si said that it would take several protorps to kill an AT-AT (something like three I think), thats HUNDREDS of MTs right there.

And of course, SPHA-T > USCM...

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:

Typhonis 1 wrote:clonetroopers have what they hit Genois with cept for space support the Colonial Marines have there universes dropships and armor

AT-TE is well more than powerful enough to defeat them. Consider this, Hailfire Droids were using missles similar to LAATs that were similar in most respects, save for the purple glow and sooty contrails. The missles aboard a LAAT are 100 kilotons, forcused to some-odd degree in order to deliver an enormous amount of energy all in one place. To that end, we can speculate that the AT-TE killed at Geonosis was done so with a 100KT missle! Even if considerably less than that, I don't think there are any sources claiming KT level weapons used by the USCM

Not to rain on your parade but the missiles have variable yields.

His Divine Shadow wrote:Not to rain on your parade but the missiles have variable yields.

I'm aware. I'm just saying that its probable (considering the LAATs missles were this way) that the Hailfires could be using KT level missles.

Of course, if you don't like it, diregard it. But it seems to make sense to me soooo