Are ISD II's Battleships or Dreadnoughts?

[Baffalo]

I got to thinking about this the other day and figured someone could help me out. Is the Imperial Star Destroyer Mark II a battleship or a dreadnought?

Now, a Dreadnought is a big-gun battleship that relies primarily on several large, big guns, whereas traditional battleships relied on several guns of various caliber. The advantages of dreadnoughts is that once you sight in one gun, all the guns are the same, and thus fire identically. But the ISD II has several types of guns, which I will kindly list.

• Octuple Barbette Turbolaser or Ion Cannons (8)
• Heavy Turblaser Batteries (5)
• Turbolaser Batteries (5)
• Additional Turbolaser Batteries (26+)
• Heavy Ion Cannons (20)
• Pylon Q7 Tractor Beam Projectors (10)

And that's not including the onboard compliment of TIE Starfighters or Imperial Walkers, which could easily classify the ship as a Carrier as well. So I'm wondering, what should the ISD II be classified as?

[Agent Sorchus]

Dumb question, the evolution of a dreadnought in our world had no bearing on star wars. In other words it really doesn't matter what sort of ship they might have been called in the WW2 era, because that doesn't change what they are in the story. Besides the limited thought of what specific type of battleship this might represent you are forgetting the more important question: Do you think of them as a Battleship or a Carrier?

[AniThyng]

I think SDN consensus on the matter is that they are "merely" Destroyers

With the 72 TIE Fighters being analogous to the 2 helicopters modern large destroyers tend to have.

Though being a "mere" destroyer doesn't really means it's weak - it's hard to find a modern surface combatant heavier and more powerful than a Burke after all.

[PainRack]

The problem with calling them a battleship is due to the scale of Imperial warships.

If they're battleships, what are Executors or other larger warships?

One should also note that the definitions of battleships and dreadnoughts evolved over the time.

We should be looking at the ROLES the ISD play and then trying to come up with a definition.

The ISD is used to destroy smaller vessels and escort larger vessels. It has a airwing that is used to support ground forces, it can land ground troops and even a strike force. Numerous vessels can be grouped together to put toghther a larger ground army.

It also plays a command role and can coordinate both space, fighters and ground assets.


Its arguably a destroyer, which has a cruiser role doubled on it in terms of C3.


Whether its more powerful than say a frigate or etc shouldn't really matter unless we're comparing scale of firepower such as ship of the line and other such classifications.

Battletech uses this where their frigates are more powerful than their destroyers, because of the roles each class play. Frigates escort dropship flotillas and thus have to have good firepower and staying power, whereas destroyers were meant to destroy smaller ships(dropships) and form outer screens for warship fleets, their fuel endurance were smaller in favour for increased speed and etc, and they thus massed lesser than frigates and usually have lesser firepower.

[The Romulan Republic]

The problem with calling them a battleship is due to the scale of Imperial warships.

If they're battleships, what are Executors or other larger warships?

One should also note that the definitions of battleships and dreadnoughts evolved over the time.

We should be looking at the ROLES the ISD play and then trying to come up with a definition.

The ISD is used to destroy smaller vessels and escort larger vessels. It has a airwing that is used to support ground forces, it can land ground troops and even a strike force. Numerous vessels can be grouped together to put toghther a larger ground army.

It also plays a command role and can coordinate both space, fighters and ground assets.


Its arguably a destroyer, which has a cruiser role doubled on it in terms of C3.

I mostly agree with this, though I personally prefer a cruiser designation.

In any case, they are not battleships by any stretch of the imagination.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Another point you need to think about is that "Dreadnought" and "Battleship" are not mutually exclusive; a dreadnought, historically, was a battleship that was based either on HMs Dreadnought or on evolutions of that ship.

This is why in descriptions of Jutland and similar WW1 battles strength is listed as "x Dreadnought battleships, y pre-dreadnought battleships" or whatever.

Personally, I would think the term "Star Destroyer" sums it up: it's a destroyer, in space. Designed to hunt down smaller warships (torpedoe boats or their equivalents) and escort larger ships. Which is exactly what we see them doing on the original trilogy.

[Serafina]

We should keep in mind that a destroyer suits the needs of the Empire just fine.

It is fast enough to fulfill police duties (hunt down pirates and smugglers) and can deploy fighters in order to provide greater coverage. Its armament is heavy enough to destroy smaller vessels such as corvettes, and most planetary government do not possess anything larger - neither do the rebels for most of their history.

A destroyer-sized vessel is therefore ideal for keeping the Empire together.
Smaller ships such as corvettes would be in danger from individual planetary governments or organizations. They might be better at hunting down pirates or rebels, but they lack fighter support and therefore coverage.
Meanwhile, larger vessels are simply too slow and expensive to be used against pirates or rebels. They are only necessary when someone manages to put up a large, organized resistance, which is exactly what the Star Destroyer is supposed to prevent.

I think the whole thing is pretty comparable to ships during the age of sail. You didn't send first-rate ships to police your colonies, because they were not fast, maneuverable and cheap enough to fight pirates - you used much smaller vessels to do so. Your large ships were supposed to fight the fleet of other governments - but there IS no opposing government for the Empire. And unlike in real life, a space fleet can actually dominate potential enemy governments (a ship can not bombard any point of an enemy territory, a spaceship can). That's probably the main reason the Star Destroyer is carrying heavy turbolasers - to intimidate hostile planets. That they are useful against enemy capital ships is just a side effect.


Bottom line:
- A Star Destroyer offers a good mix of speed, firepower and cost
- Those qualities make it good for police work - it is not threatened by small vessels such as corvettes and can easily catch them.
- The Rebels had ships similar to those of pirates and were therefore well covered by Star Destroyers
- The TIE-fighters were also useful for that role, as were the carried troops.
- The heavy turbolasers were ideal for intimidating planetary populations
- For all the task above, a larger vessel provides no additional benefits and might actually be disadvantageous

So, when you already control a large Empire and have no equally-sized enemies to fight, building a fleet of Star Destroyers to keep tight control makes perfect sense.

[AniThyng]

If anything, a historical Cruiser definition seems more appropriate, since it implies a relatively large and powerful ship capable of independent operations and with long range and speed. Cruisers historically were themselves grouped into squadrons of similar ships, or acted as flagships, or as escorts for comparatively rare larger ships.

[Batman]

Historical definitions are not always constant. The escort role didn't really come about until WW2, when the added antiair firepower was needed. In WW1, when cruisers worked with the Battle Fleet, they typically acted as a recon element, or flagships for torpedo boat/destroyer flotillas, while the destroyers in turned tried to keep the torpedo boats away from the capital ships, acting as escorts.

That being said, ISDs're definitely nothing larger than DD/CL equivalents on the in-universe scale, they're just so blasted big by modern day standards that they can comfortably roll functions we always needed separate ships for into one hull.

I'd tongue-in-cheek consider calling them CVLs in the original meaning-cruiser, aViation, light.

[Mr Bean]

I've always seen the Star Destroyers as Destroyers with the smaller Victory class as Frigates. The Executor's are either Heavy Cruisers or possibly Battleships or Battle cruisers. Just because Naval terms don't translate exactly the designations of Corvette, Frigate, Destroyer, Cruisers and Battleships help put things in prospective in related the roles of what these ships are expected to do and preform.

It also makes sense from a historical prospective if what is today's destroyers could have been two hundred years ago a Battleship as happened in our ship design. The Eclipse's mounting of sectional super laser for example could have marked a new evolution of ship design where previously Tubolasers were sufficient to fight any target any and any extra weapon strength was wasted, now planetary shields lets planets laugh off requests to surrender from enemy fleets, so we need a new ship that while not design to destroy worlds is designed to blow holes through planetary shields for fighters and gunboat sized craft to enter and destroy the shield generators and force capitulation.

[Connor MacLeod]

There is no "consensus" and I'm no longer sure that one can actually try to classify them by modern terms. And even if you do thta hardly means that the definition will remain consistnet (It never has in real life).

The mentality behind "destroyers" is because people want to think of ISDs as minor, insignificant and small warships. While SW can build bigger ships (and as many as they want, hypothetically) I am doubful that they are *minor* in the least. There's no real need for millions of multi-mile warships even if they have the building capabilitiy - what would they be good for that an ISD alreay can't achieve? I mean I suppose if a planet having an ocean offends you then maybe having the ability to boil it off is useful, but bigger ships also mean the need for correspondingly greater logistics.

I always used to argue they were "cruisers" after the fashion of WW1/WW2 cruisers, and because most of the canon evidence pointed ot them being cruisers (Han pointing out its an imperial cruiser.) But even that is going to be imprecise and arbitrary.

Frankly the "name" is meaningless just as the fact capital ship weapons are "turbolasers" are meaningless. An ISD is what it is, a Star Destroyer, and STar Destroyers are typically jack of all trades warships that are supposed to look menacing and generally justify the Imperila Navy's existence. No need to get more technical or complicated than that.

[Sea Skimmer]

The ‘all big gun’ concept of HMS Dreadnought didn’t last very long anyway before the 4in gun came back; and most foreign fleets always kept relatively heavy secondary guns the whole time except the USN which likewise had some ships with only 12pdr class weapons.

I think the best way to classify Star Wars ships is the methods used in the age of sail, ‘Rates’. Since all ships perform generally similar functions with similar weapons and do not have radical differences like battleship vs. carrier vs. guided missile destroyer would today logically they should just be rated in order of raw scale and capability. Something like Executor would be a first rate while a ISD is likely around a forth rate and a Corellian Corvette seven or eight rate. Or one can use more or fewer rates, but looking at what we know of Star Wars Ships I think seven or eight would provide a very reasonable disposition.

[atg]

Your large ships were supposed to fight the fleet of other governments - but there IS no opposing government for the Empire.

There's no real need for millions of multi-mile warships even if they have the building capabilitiy - what would they be good for that an ISD alreay can't achieve?

For the above comments there are a couple of things I'd note - Local governments such as Kuat operated heavy ships like the Mandator and Procurator classes. Having bigger ships such as the Executors around would help prevent Kuat getting uppity. Obviously Kuat was a special case due to the Kuat Drive Yards, but there is the possibility of other planetary/system governments operating ships more powerful than ISDs (e.g. The Trade Federation's battleships).

Also IIRC Palpatine knew that the Vong were coming - no doubt a fleet of battleships would be part of the plan to deal with them.

[Batman]

KDY stops being a concern the moment the Empire pulls funding (leave alone actually bothers to militarily intervene), and I very much suspect they knew that. I don't care if they can build individual ships that can outgun a Star Destroyer, not only is the Empire bound to have a lot more of those, but it can simply starve KDY by taking its business elsewhere.
Single system entities are a complete and utter nonthreat to the Empire (militarily, fiscally or otherwise).

[AniThyng]

KDY stops being a concern the moment the Empire pulls funding (leave alone actually bothers to militarily intervene), and I very much suspect they knew that. I don't care if they can build individual ships that can outgun a Star Destroyer, not only is the Empire bound to have a lot more of those, but it can simply starve KDY by taking its business elsewhere.
Single system entities are a complete and utter nonthreat to the Empire (militarily, fiscally or otherwise).

I have no idea if this has any canon basis, but surely by the time the Empire has solidified its grip on the core worlds, if those ships haven't been outright seized by the Imperial Navy, they would surely be under constant surveillance and the command crews monitored for any signs of rebellion. It's one thing to defect with a Nebulon-B frigate, it's quite another to defect with a capital ship, unless you happen to be an Admiral, and look what happened to them when they tried (Haarkov and Zairin).

[Batman]

And that assumes that KDY has any interest in defying the Empire, given they're making a fuckton of money supplying it.

[The Romulan Republic]

Your large ships were supposed to fight the fleet of other governments - but there IS no opposing government for the Empire.

There's no real need for millions of multi-mile warships even if they have the building capabilitiy - what would they be good for that an ISD alreay can't achieve?

For the above comments there are a couple of things I'd note - Local governments such as Kuat operated heavy ships like the Mandator and Procurator classes. Having bigger ships such as the Executors around would help prevent Kuat getting uppity. Obviously Kuat was a special case due to the Kuat Drive Yards, but there is the possibility of other planetary/system governments operating ships more powerful than ISDs (e.g. The Trade Federation's battleships).

Also IIRC Palpatine knew that the Vong were coming - no doubt a fleet of battleships would be part of the plan to deal with them.

To be strictly accurate, there are a number of governments that can field powerful warships. Isn't Corillea confirmed in canon to have battleships? And of course the Mon Calimari. There are probably others as well- those are just the ones I remember.

[AniThyng]

Your large ships were supposed to fight the fleet of other governments - but there IS no opposing government for the Empire.

There's no real need for millions of multi-mile warships even if they have the building capabilitiy - what would they be good for that an ISD alreay can't achieve?

For the above comments there are a couple of things I'd note - Local governments such as Kuat operated heavy ships like the Mandator and Procurator classes. Having bigger ships such as the Executors around would help prevent Kuat getting uppity. Obviously Kuat was a special case due to the Kuat Drive Yards, but there is the possibility of other planetary/system governments operating ships more powerful than ISDs (e.g. The Trade Federation's battleships).

Also IIRC Palpatine knew that the Vong were coming - no doubt a fleet of battleships would be part of the plan to deal with them.

To be strictly accurate, there are a number of governments that can field powerful warships. Isn't Corillea confirmed in canon to have battleships? And of course the Mon Calimari. There are probably others as well- those are just the ones I remember.

Considering Corellia's government has been co-opted by the Empire, it's probably a given that Corellia's sector Battleships are also kept on a tight leash by the Imperial Navy (I mean we saw this with the Death Star, with checks and balances to make sure Tarkin doesn't get any funny ideas. Or at least has to work much harder at it). In any case, I'm pretty sure these are all explicitly stated to have short legs, suitable only to operate within a given Sector - while mainline naval warships (ISDs or otherwise) have a much longer operating range, so even if they defect or turn traitor they aren't going very far and can be easily kept in check until loyal heavy warships can be deployed.

[atg]

It doesn't have to be Kuat or another system going up against the Empire. The Empire involved itself in stopping local civil wars (such as the Sepan Civil War), so this would likely have played some role in its procurement strategy.

As a what-if, lets say Kuat (or Corellia or whomever) folds in against itself, and the Empire decides to stop it. Would a few ISD's make an impact against something like a Mandator? Both in a straight up fight or in a show-of-force way. Lets say the Empire decides to force both sides to negotiate, they may not be inclinded to talk at first if ISD sized vessels are all the Empire sends, perhaps they might reason that the Empire is not really taking it seriously, or might try to bluff their way through against the Empire if their thinking is along the lines of "The Imps have destroyers, but we've got a few battleships". However parking an Executor or two in the system as well as some ISDs would no doubt get their attention.

This is of course just a theory, but the Empire did produce 'battleship' sized vessels and so must have felt a need for them. Until the Rebellion manages to aquire its bigger Mon Cal cruisers (i.e Home One) the only ships that I'm aware of that could out-do ISD's were in the fleets of the local powers such as Kuat. Of course anyone more familiar with the EU can feel free to correct me.

[AniThyng]

It doesn't have to be Kuat or another system going up against the Empire. The Empire involved itself in stopping local civil wars (such as the Sepan Civil War), so this would likely have played some role in its procurement strategy.

As a what-if, lets say Kuat (or Corellia or whomever) folds in against itself, and the Empire decides to stop it. Would a few ISD's make an impact against something like a Mandator? Both in a straight up fight or in a show-of-force way. Lets say the Empire decides to force both sides to negotiate, they may not be inclinded to talk at first if ISD sized vessels are all the Empire sends, perhaps they might reason that the Empire is not really taking it seriously, or might try to bluff their way through against the Empire if their thinking is along the lines of "The Imps have destroyers, but we've got a few battleships". However parking an Executor or two in the system as well as some ISDs would no doubt get their attention.

This is of course just a theory, but the Empire did produce 'battleship' sized vessels and so must have felt a need for them. Until the Rebellion manages to aquire its bigger Mon Cal cruisers (i.e Home One) the only ships that I'm aware of that could out-do ISD's were in the fleets of the local powers such as Kuat. Of course anyone more familiar with the EU can feel free to correct me.

Well no one's saying they don't have Battleships, just that they don't need that many, and can afford to keep the ones they do have at major fleet bases, ready to deploy where needed - Imperial battleships such as executor probably have the range to do so, where Kuati battleships do not (and again, there is no reason the Empire wouldn't keep such vessels on a tight leash at the command level, so the issue of them even turning traitor is moot - these aren't stationed far from home, they're in a Core sector that's heavily Imperialized). For day to day work, you don't want your expensive to run battleships running all over the place burning supplies and hypermatter for no reason - ISDs represent the ultimate jack of all trades - cheap enough to build en masse, powerful enough to intimidate nearly everyone, and with enough endurance to be on constant patrols. (come to think of it, it's also expendable enough that you could afford the risk of one going rogue...)

[TC Pilot]

Well, they're often called battleships in-canon. In the ESB novelization, for example, Needa is described as one of Vader's "battleship commanders." Though, even the Trade Federation coreships are called battleships, despite having a terrible armament. Trying to fit these things into terrestrial naming conventions and roles is bound to be an excercise in futility.

[Mr Bean]

Well, they're often called battleships in-canon. In the ESB novelization, for example, Needa is described as one of Vader's "battleship commanders." Though, even the Trade Federation coreships are called battleships, despite having a terrible armament. Trying to fit these things into terrestrial naming conventions and roles is bound to be an excercise in futility.

Here's the thing, there's a difference between a writer who does not bother to research terms before using them in literature and the terms themselves not being useful in a setting.

If I show you this picture

And I describe it as "A Machine Gun" does this make the term Machine Gun a bad term that's not helpful? Or does this make me incorrect in my usage of the term.

As we understand the concept and term "Destroyer" in modern current 2012 military parlance a Star Destroyer can best be described as a Destroyer because it is designed as a jack of all trades vessel used to hunt down gunboat style vessels, defend other ships and itself against fighters and escort other ships. One does not use Battleships to escort Merchant shipping unless you have nothing else to do with them at all because of how much of an investment a Battleship represents. If it does not represent a huge investment then typically unless tech gets in the way, today's Battleships will become tomorrow's heavy Cruisers or even Frigates.

[Connor MacLeod]

For the above comments there are a couple of things I'd note - Local governments such as Kuat operated heavy ships like the Mandator and Procurator classes. Having bigger ships such as the Executors around would help prevent Kuat getting uppity. Obviously Kuat was a special case due to the Kuat Drive Yards, but there is the possibility of other planetary/system governments operating ships more powerful than ISDs (e.g. The Trade Federation's battleships).

Which all had short range, local hyperdrives, if even that. Intergalactic warships were rare prior to the Clone Wars, and I suspect that after restrictions were placed back on them. And there would be good reasons for that, as it limits the amount of rampant destruction someone can inflict on the galaxy at large. (Besides you don't need long hyperdrive ranges if your sole point in having massive firepower is to defend yourself.)

For "police action" type activity which was the bulk of what the Empire did with the Rebellion, you don't need top of the line battleships. If anything, large numbers of smaller warships serves you better there.

Also IIRC Palpatine knew that the Vong were coming - no doubt a fleet of battleships would be part of the plan to deal with them.

There's no reason to build them until they need the, and he'd have to have far more control over the Empire than he did in the OT. Otherwise he could have just built a fleet of battleships to terrorize the galaxy.

That of course assumes he had an intention of crushing the Vong utterly at the outset. The Vong if anything would serve as another tool to justify him remaining in power and his military expenditures. HE's not exactly above sacrificing large numbers of people if it serves his ends.

As far as ship classification goes, Sea Skimmer's "rates" idea probably serves the best. (Which basically is what the whole "Star-<title>" thing amounts to anyhow. As I said before, people fixated on destroyre because they wanted ISDS to be small, unimportant warships and to have these huge hypothetical fleets of Executors duking it out to the death. Or something.)

[Mr Bean]

As far as ship classification goes, Sea Skimmer's "rates" idea probably serves the best. (Which basically is what the whole "Star-<title>" thing amounts to anyhow. As I said before, people fixated on destroyre because they wanted ISDS to be small, unimportant warships and to have these huge hypothetical fleets of Executors duking it out to the death. Or something.)

Err no we want the Destroyer classified as a Destroyer because it fits the modern interpretation of a being a destroyer. It fufills the roles and relative tonnage (Compared to a Nebulon-B or the Executor) of what we could expect from either a Destroyer and acts in the role a destroyer requires.

Know how many active Battlecruisers and Battleships the current US Navy has? Zero because they make no sense building that large with present technology, Aegis Cruisers and Nimitz Carriers are the biggest we build at present. In the SW universe dedicated carriers might make little sense if every Star destroyer can throw 72 fighters into the mix in addition to it's guns, even if your dedicated carrier can dump 720 fighters into the mix it might not make sense to do so from either a supply, defense or personnel prospective which is why there are no SW carriers running around.

We have the visual example of the Death Star on how big they can build ships as well, so yes in context a Star Destroyer is a small unimportant warship if you have Death Stars running around.

[Eternal_Freedom]

On the matter of the Mandator fleets protecting Kuat, I have a suspicion that they may have been seized by the government during the Clone Wars or thereafter.

Consider, in SW3ICS, it describes the Munificent frigates as needing 1000 to 1 odds to break even against a single Mandator. This implies that they saw active combat against the Seperatists. After all, you're a formerly peaceful governmetn shrown headlong into a war you are not prepared for, and one of your memebers has a very powerful fleets of warships that just need better hyperdrives. I would take them.

Even if that did not happen, I don't think Kuat had any Mandators or similar around by about 7 or so ABY. The only instance I can think of in the EU of a major incursion at Kuat was Warlord Zsinj's raid to steal the Razor's Kiss. For that, he brought his entire fleet, including the Iron Fist, an Executor.

We know of two ISD's that were present to defend the yards: Mauler and [/i]Gilded Claw[/i] which was lost. It is possible there were other ISD's around, nay even probable, they just aren't named. But nowhere is there mention of a large Star Dreadnought coming out to fight Iron Fist]/i].

That sets off some alarm belsl in my head.