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I stumbled upon this entry on wookiepedia the other day

Marrt is a clone trooper who during the Clone Wars uncovers information that an official of the Republic was gasp! selling weapons to the Separtists and two senators are discovered to be involved as well (ummm... the freaking head of the Republic is leading the Separtists).

In a daring mission in which 3 of his squad die, Marrt captures the official and retrieves the data tying the official to the Separtists and implicating the 2 Senators. Good job, Marrt! You really put a crimp in the plans of those nasty Separatists.

Good thing Palpatine's holo-prints weren't all over the place. That would have been akward to say the least.

"oh, ummm... yes about that... Order 66! Dammit, I was hoping to stretch this con out a while longer!"

Marrt gets busted up in the course of the mission and is hospitalized. He requests to only speak to the Jedi to turn over his evidence - not his superiors in the Clone Army but to the Jedi. Are they running this war then or this just some twisted irony on Marrt's part?

Anyhoo the clencher is when our favoritely-named Jedi, Kit Fisto, says: "Brave scout, you honour the Republic with your heroism!"

Oh, the bittersweet irony! And it gets better:

Fisto considered Marrt's actions on Belgaroth brave and reminded [Ahsoka] Tano—who had been reluctant to go to Sacorria in the belief that a meeting with some wounded clone was a waste of time—that even the actions of a single soldier could be very important

and

Ahsoka learns a valuable lesson in clone courage when she and Kit Fisto hear the tale of a badly wounded soldier.

Yes I hope she remembered that valuable lesson later later when she probably got shot in the back by one of those courageous clones when Order 66 came down.

ARE THESE PEOPLE OUT OF THEIR FREAKIN' MINDS?

What is the freaking point of making any of these clones herioc or personable when we all know they will eventually gun down their Jedi allies without the least bit of hesistation and later they will dominate the galaxy thru fear while killing a couple of defenseless Tatooine moisture farmers and a bunch of Jawas over some droids.

There is just something so wrong trying to make these clones anything more than Palpatine's pawns. I hate the whole clone army idea to begin with but if you are going to use it you shouldn't make them heroes nor give them human-like characteristics unless they are bad to begin with and are just playing the Jedi.

THEY'RE BAD GUYS FFS! They're aren't tragic characters like Anakin/Vader who are seduced by evil - they basically are evil or they're droid-like following pre-programmed instructions.

"Brave" Marrt and all his clone buddies were cloned from a disreputable individual under highly suspicious circumstance which we know was by Palpatine aka the freaking evilest man in the galaxy who apparently had these clones programmed from the start to one day wipe out the Jedi. And later they become Stormtroopers, the faceless jackbooted thugs of the Original Trilogy.

Why create a story about a heroic clone for the sake of a Jedi to learn a lesson who may eventually get gunned down by these clones like the rest of her Jedi buddies? Madness!

Because it makes the betrayal that much more so, because there is nothing wrong with giving the clones some individuality, because your opinion is based on admitted bias and hindsight.

Darth Fanboy wrote:Because it makes the betrayal that much more so,

So you admit they are evil then? Then why make a story about a heroic clone trooper who is just stringing the Jedi along?

Darth Fanboy wrote:because there is nothing wrong with giving the clones some individuality

Yeah - bad individual traits. Far better would have been the troopers showing some signs even if subtle of them not being the good guys errr... clones they appear to be. May be a little too much ruthlessness which they defend as being necessary due to the war but some of the Jedi begin to get wary

Darth Fanboy wrote:because your opinion is based on admitted bias and hindsight.

Yes the admitted bias of wanting a good consistent story. Marrt's story kind of sums up what's wrong the whole clone war saga. We know he's a bad guy. Either he's been evil from Day 1 or he is a programmed fleshy droid that one day is your friend and the next wants to kill you. The first scenario means he has free will and chooses to hoodwink the Jedi until Order 66 is given or he has no free will and is little more than a droid.

Also what bugs me about this story is how it almost seems to want to be a salute to those in the Armed Forces currently in Iraq and Afghanistan with its message of "that even the actions of a single soldier could be very important." I certainly hope that's not the case because it is so wrong on so many levels.

1) Marrt didn't choose to fight this war. He wasn't even drafted in a sense. He was created almost in the same way a droid was. He fights because he was created to fight and he was trained to do nothing else but be a soldier.

2) Marrt is one of the bad guys. Eventually by his own choice or pre-programmed choice he will turn on his Jedi allies and gun them down then he will go on to become one of the jack-booted thugs of the Empire who enforces the oppressive will of the Emperor

3) his actions mean diddly-squat because the Republic that he works for, its leader is controlling the Separatists and he secretly works for him to ultimately wipe out the Jedi and turn the democratic Republic into the tyrannical Empire.

No matter how heroic brave Wally Marrt was here or his clone brethern in the Clone Wars, I can't root or even sympathize for a bunch of clones that eventually wipe out their allies and go on to become the Storm Troopers.

Yeah. Valen forbid the people who died by the Acclamatorload to keep the Republic safe be given a little bit of individuality.
No, they were not evil. You obviously don't understand what that means. Evil requires intent. As in they intentionally did it. Newsflash-they didn't, they were programmed to do it. And up to and until the programming was triggered, they served the Republic not only loyally, but enthusiastically (to the point where individual Clones would go 'Leave us-we're Clones, we're expandable').

Batman wrote:Yeah. Valen forbid the people who died by the Acclamatorload to keep the Republic safe be given a little bit of individuality.

Keep the Republic safe? From what? Palpatine was calling the shots the whole time. The Separtists could never win the war because Palpatine didn't need them to or want them to. The Republic was never in any danger except from Palpatine and cluelessness of the Jedi and the Senate who couldn't see the obvious right in front of their noses.

Batman wrote:No, they were not evil. You obviously don't understand what that means. Evil requires intent. As in they intentionally did it. Newsflash-they didn't, they were programmed to do it.

Really? Is this some EU band-aid crap? In ROTS there was nothing to indicate any kind of programming. If you may remember a clone trooper leader in each different sector with a Jedi gets the message from Palpatine to "Execute Order 66." They then command their troops to fire on the Jedi most of whom didn't hear the order. With Yoda the clone who got the message walks over to the other clone and just nods and the other clone responds as though all along he knew this day was coming. If Palpatine had typed this command into some kind of clone central databank your theory might be believable but the clone grunts did not hear the order and did what their commander told them to do without a one of them going "Huh?" Sorry but your explanation doesn't wash with what was put on the screen.

And the other problem with your explanation is that if they were programmed then that makes them little more than robots with less free will and determination than a can-opener. Why should I care about them developing personalities when they're just going to shoot the Jedi down some day and take over the Republic?

Besides all the heroics these brave toasters did for the Republic was rendered null and void the moment they turned on the Jedi, backed up anakin when he slaughtered the Jedi kids, and helped to enforce the tyrannical rule of the Emperor. Yeah, thanks for the heroics, guys! Really appreciated that help! You guys were great!

Play Republic Commando. It will change everything you know about the Clonetroopers.

Keep the Republic safe? From what? Palpatine was calling the shots the whole time. The Separtists could never win the war because Palpatine didn't need them to or want them to. The Republic was never in any danger except from Palpatine and cluelessness of the Jedi and the Senate who couldn't see the obvious right in front of their noses.

So what? Literally so what.

Do you think the individual clone trooper ever actually knew that? For all they know the separatists were a real threat lead by a fallen Jedi and the Jedi were really fooling them all this time as Palpatine says. Keep in mind that they do not have the kind of out of character knowledge you do and that it is a huge galaxy. Chances are the average clone trooper would only ever see one or two Jedi in his life time and those would be the Jedi commanding him. For all he knows, that single Jedi might be the only good one or alternatively he might have been mind bending them all this time playing good.

Furthermore, the average stormtrooper again will have little or no knowledge of 99% of the things you know as an EU reader. He will be living on a diet of imperial propaganda and in case he is a clone spending his life in imperial run barracks in imperial run army bases with little contact with the population of that world, let alone the galaxy. For all he knows, the propaganda is right and the rebels are all a bunch of maniacs blowing civilians up and genociding the poor teddy bears of the forest moon.

Your problem is that you fail to take into account how the characters feel and what they know. It is completely possible for a good man to do bad deeds becouse he is convinced they are good or that they are doing it for a greater purpose. You don't even need magical mind control for that.

What's wrong with giving some individuality to living, breathing soldiers, minions or not? The idea of what was good becoming a tool of evil is a theme GL was aiming for, regardless of whether he succeeded with it or not. All I see here is a lot of fanboy whinging.

Purple wrote:

Keep the Republic safe? From what? Palpatine was calling the shots the whole time. The Separtists could never win the war because Palpatine didn't need them to or want them to. The Republic was never in any danger except from Palpatine and cluelessness of the Jedi and the Senate who couldn't see the obvious right in front of their noses.

So what? Literally so what.

It's a little something called tension. If you the audience know that the war has no consequence because one man is leading and manipulating both sides then all the tension is gone as is any interest. Marrt's actions here had no consequences. He discovered some Republic officials dealing weapons to the Separtists. So what? Literally so what? Did that set back their (Palpatine's) plans? The same with every action and battle in the CLone Wars from start to finish.

Purple wrote:Furthermore, the average stormtrooper again will have little or no knowledge of 99% of the things you know as an EU reader. He will be living on a diet of imperial propaganda and in case he is a clone spending his life in imperial run barracks in imperial run army bases with little contact with the population of that world, let alone the galaxy. For all he knows, the propaganda is right and the rebels are all a bunch of maniacs blowing civilians up and genociding the poor teddy bears of the forest moon.

You're making a lot of assumptions and defending the bad guys while overlooking one simple fact. Palpatine had the clones created. They were his tools from Day 1. When the time came in ROTS they gunned down the Jedi without hestitation or remorse as seen in the film, they backed up Anakin when he went to slaughter the Jedi kids, then they became the StormTroopers of the Empire. That spells bad guys.

Purple wrote:Your problem is that you fail to take into account how the characters feel and what they know. It is completely possible for a good man to do bad deeds becouse he is convinced they are good or that they are doing it for a greater purpose. You don't even need magical mind control for that.

And your problem along with Lucas and EU writers like the one who came up with Marrt's story, is you fail to understand how storytelling works. The clones were destined from Day 1 to turn on the Jedi. There is no reason to create stories of their heroic deeds in a war which their creator and master Palpatine is controlling both sides to begin with. If anything brave Marrt's action just seem to be a ruse to keep the Jedi and the Republic thinking there is a real war going on. If you have clones "bravely" risking their lives for the Republic, the Jedi will trust them and lower their guard till that day Order 66 comes along.

Face it, the clones are NOT good guys! No matter how you slice it. They either knew from the moment they were created that they were Palpatine's tools and their job was to lull the Jedi into a false sense of security till the day came to cut them down or they were like pre-programmed droids who with a flip of a switch turned evil. You don't make stories about heroic traitors. That's just pointless and downright weird.

Srelex wrote:What's wrong with giving some individuality to living, breathing soldiers, minions or not? The idea of what was good becoming a tool of evil is a theme GL was aiming for, regardless of whether he succeeded with it or not. All I see here is a lot of fanboy whinging.

A bad storyline is a bad storyline. I would think only fanboys would be the type to defend such. General audiences would think it strange to give individual traits to mostly faceless troopers who later gun down their allies and become the Storm Troopers everyone remembers from the original trilogy.

If Lucas had made Clone Wars series before ROTS he might have change the scene when Order 66 was given. Something along the line of Commander Cody sighing and saying "Sorry old friend!" before he orders his troopers to fire on Obiwan. The fact that there was none of that in ROTS made it appeared that clones had been a 5th Column the whole time. Making stories of clone heroism after that is a lame attempt at backtracking. It's too late. We the audience know who the troopers are, what they will do, and who they are secretly working for. They're bad guys

ronindave wrote:It's a little something called tension. If you the audience know that the war has no consequence because one man is leading and manipulating both sides then all the tension is gone as is any interest. Marrt's actions here had no consequences. He discovered some Republic officials dealing weapons to the Separtists. So what? Literally so what? Did that set back their (Palpatine's) plans? The same with every action and battle in the CLone Wars from start to finish.

Not this again. It was beaten to death in the TPM review thread (http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=146990) that I don't need to repeat it. Just go there and read how people replied to you last time.

Short version is you don't need an uncertain outcome to have tension. Tension comes from not knowing how you get from A to B.

You're making a lot of assumptions and defending the bad guys while overlooking one simple fact. Palpatine had the clones created. They were his tools from Day 1. When the time came in ROTS they gunned down the Jedi without hestitation or remorse as seen in the film, they backed up Anakin when he went to slaughter the Jedi kids, then they became the StormTroopers of the Empire. That spells bad guys.

And bad guys can't be human, can't have emotions and must generally be flat cardboard characters that only exist to be evil like the mooks from James Bond movies.

And your problem along with Lucas and EU writers like the one who came up with Marrt's story, is you fail to understand how storytelling works. The clones were destined from Day 1 to turn on the Jedi. There is no reason to create stories of their heroic deeds in a war which their creator and master Palpatine is controlling both sides to begin with. If anything brave Marrt's action just seem to be a ruse to keep the Jedi and the Republic thinking there is a real war going on. If you have clones "bravely" risking their lives for the Republic, the Jedi will trust them and lower their guard till that day Order 66 comes along.

That is your view point, one that it seems me the rest of the world and the authors of the actual work disagree with.
Well guess what, this is just one of your nerd rage tirades like on that other thread, and it will end the same way.

Face it, the clones are NOT good guys! No matter how you slice it. They either knew from the moment they were created that they were Palpatine's tools and their job was to lull the Jedi into a false sense of security till the day came to cut them down or they were like pre-programmed droids who with a flip of a switch turned evil. You don't make stories about heroic traitors. That's just pointless and downright weird.

No, it is completely brilliant. The idea that the clones are fundamentally good men doing what they feel is right being fooled or even forced into blind obedience by a magical switch is brilliant. The fact that you don't like it does not make it objectively bad.

ronindave wrote:A bad storyline is a bad storyline. I would think only fanboys would be the type to defend such. General audiences would think it strange to give individual traits to mostly faceless troopers who later gun down their allies and become the Storm Troopers everyone remembers from the original trilogy.

Unless you plan on giving us a citation on that we must assume that the general audience you speak of constitutes you alone.

PS. I think you need to consult TvTropes. As much as that site is low on the scale of reliable source of refrence it might actually help you understand things.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... ockVillain

Purple wrote:

ronindave wrote:It's a little something called tension. If you the audience know that the war has no consequence because one man is leading and manipulating both sides then all the tension is gone as is any interest. Marrt's actions here had no consequences. He discovered some Republic officials dealing weapons to the Separtists. So what? Literally so what? Did that set back their (Palpatine's) plans? The same with every action and battle in the CLone Wars from start to finish.

Not this again. It was beaten to death in the TPM review thread (http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=146990) that I don't need to repeat it. Just go there and read how people replied to you last time.

Yes this again because despite being "beaten to death" none of it was convincing. Not only is there no tension there is no feeling of satisfaction for the heroes' and even the villains' accomplishments because everything is being manipulated by Palpatine. He controls Dooku and Grievous who lead the Separtists. He controls the clone troopers. If what Dooku told Obiwan is correct, Palpatine controls much of the Senate. Even the Jedi are manipulated into fighting this war and accepting these clones of highly dubious origins.

No victory or defeat means anything in this type of story structure. I can't feel for Marrt's heroics because I know he will turn on the Jedi and I know his actions means nothing because his leader is controlling the enemy. For all we know, he knows the war is a farce and he was bred to keep the charade of a fake war going till Order 66.

Purple wrote:Short version is you don't need an uncertain outcome to have tension.

It has nothing to do with an uncertain outcome unless you really thought Luke wasn't going to blow up the Death Star. The point is that within the confines of the story the outcome is uncertain thus making the characters' struggles more real and applicable to the audience. Their actions have consequences and thus we the audience care about the characters, their actions, their setbacks, and successes.

Purple wrote:Tension comes from not knowing how you get from A to B

But we do know how we got from A to B. We saw it in AOTC and ROTS. The Jedi get the clones, the clones fight the droids, and eventually Palpatine has the clones wipe out the Jedi. What's the point of a Clone Wars TV show or a story like Marrt? Like I said it would have been different had ROTS not come out before the Clone Wars show. I don't think very few people saw the clones as anything but bad guys until the CLone Wars movie and TV show because there was nothing in the two films to suggest otherwise.

Purple wrote:

You're making a lot of assumptions and defending the bad guys while overlooking one simple fact. Palpatine had the clones created. They were his tools from Day 1. When the time came in ROTS they gunned down the Jedi without hestitation or remorse as seen in the film, they backed up Anakin when he went to slaughter the Jedi kids, then they became the StormTroopers of the Empire. That spells bad guys.

And bad guys can't be human, can't have emotions and must generally be flat cardboard characters that only exist to be evil like the mooks from James Bond movies.

Sure they can be human - bad humans, you know like the type who killed Luke's aunt and uncle and a bunch of Jawas and gunned down their former allies many of whom they shot in the back.

Trying to give the clones any type of individuality or humanity is pointless to the overall story. Their role in the story both in the Prequels and Original Trilogy is that of the faceless nameless henchmen of the bad guys. Did anyone care what the Stormtroopers were thinking when they were attacking Hoth? No because they aren't the focal point of the story. They're the unknown Nazis that get obliterated in Raiders of the Lost Ark, the Sheriff of Nottingham's men who get skewered by Robin Hood's arrows, the countless orcs killed in Lord of the Rings.

If you are going to have a story about clones who are individualistic and heroic you have to address that at or near the beginning and certainly before the end of their character arc such as when they gun down the Jedi. the problem is there was absolutely nothing in ROTS that shows the clones to be anything more than the bad guys and not tragic figures - that notion only came out after the Clone Wars TV series.

Just watch this scene again:



Do you see any hestitation or sense of tragedy here other than the tragedy of the Jedi being killed by those they assumed were their allies? At 0:20 Commander Cody, Obiwan's buddy for years, gets the order and immediately says to his troopers to "Blast him!" which they do right away. Look at 1:22 when they keep shooting the Jedi chick in the back after she has already fallen. Am I suppose to feel sorry for them? But yeah you're right the clones are human. The human traits I see here are deviousness, cowardliness, and treachery - all very human aspects but no tragedy.

Purple wrote:

And your problem along with Lucas and EU writers like the one who came up with Marrt's story, is you fail to understand how storytelling works. The clones were destined from Day 1 to turn on the Jedi. There is no reason to create stories of their heroic deeds in a war which their creator and master Palpatine is controlling both sides to begin with. If anything brave Marrt's action just seem to be a ruse to keep the Jedi and the Republic thinking there is a real war going on. If you have clones "bravely" risking their lives for the Republic, the Jedi will trust them and lower their guard till that day Order 66 comes along.

That is your view point, one that it seems me the rest of the world and the authors of the actual work disagree with.

The rest of the world? Sorry but that is laughably presumptious. And the authors are getting a paycheck. "You want me to write a story about clones saving a Wookie orphanage? How much is this going to pay? Sure!"

Purple wrote:Well guess what, this is just one of your nerd rage tirades like on that other thread, and it will end the same way.

you're so funny, purps! Try to keep it professional, alright?

Purple wrote:

Face it, the clones are NOT good guys! No matter how you slice it. They either knew from the moment they were created that they were Palpatine's tools and their job was to lull the Jedi into a false sense of security till the day came to cut them down or they were like pre-programmed droids who with a flip of a switch turned evil. You don't make stories about heroic traitors. That's just pointless and downright weird.

No, it is completely brilliant. The idea that the clones are fundamentally good men doing what they feel is right being fooled or even forced into blind obedience by a magical switch is brilliant. The fact that you don't like it does not make it objectively bad.

The clones are fundamentally good men? They're not even men. They were grown from a petri-dish, aged unnaturally, fed who knows what Nazi-esque propaganda in those 10 years, taught only to be a soldier and nothing else, and did I mentioned Palpatine was behind their creation?

watch this scene again -



The whole thing is unnatural and even the music is ominous. The only assurances of their complete obedience (which kind of takes away from them being individualistic) comes from the Kamino prime minister who for all we know is in cahoots with Palpatine directly perhaps for a lifetime contract of supplying him with clones. Watch the scene where they killed the Jedi again. Do you still see fundamentally good men when they are gunning down their former allies in the back? Those are not the actions of fundamentally good men.

Purple wrote:

ronindave wrote:A bad storyline is a bad storyline. I would think only fanboys would be the type to defend such. General audiences would think it strange to give individual traits to mostly faceless troopers who later gun down their allies and become the Storm Troopers everyone remembers from the original trilogy.

Unless you plan on giving us a citation on that we must assume that the general audience you speak of constitutes you alone.

PS. I think you need to consult TvTropes. As much as that site is low on the scale of reliable source of refrence it might actually help you understand things.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... ockVillain

Funny you mention TV tropes. PunchClockVillians - bad guys (not fundamentally good men) who have nothing personal against their enemy, like Mafia hitmen. You're right though perhaps the clones aren't evil, they're just amoral with no principles or standards.

You should check out this trope:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Mooks

Guess whose picture is the first one? Yep, storm troopers aka the clone troopers.

"They may be called the Palace Guard, the City Guard, or the patrol. Whatever the name, their purpose in any work of heroic fantasy is identical: it is, round about Chapter Three (or ten minutes into the film) to rush into the room, attack the hero one at a time, and be slaughtered. No one ever asks them if they wanted to. "

The clone troopers become like this when Yoda fights them. He wades into a pool of clone blood as he cuts down them down with impunity.

The clonetroopers/storm troopers also fall under this category:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... elessGoons

"When men wish to inspire terror and kill they put on such metal faces...They all looked alike."
In this case even without the mask they all look alike.

They go from being the Redshirt Army of the Republic to the amoral Punchclock Villains of Palpatine to the Faceless Goons and Mooks of the Empire without missing a step.

Yep, whole lot of tragedy going on here!

I can't feel for Marrt's heroics because I know he will turn on the Jedi and I know his actions means nothing because his leader is controlling the enemy.

The operative word here being I or rather you.
This is a purely personal stance on your part that has no objective value. You can try all day long to justify why YOU did not like the movies but that does not make them creatively bad.

It has nothing to do with an uncertain outcome unless you really thought Luke wasn't going to blow up the Death Star. The point is that within the confines of the story the outcome is uncertain thus making the characters' struggles more real and applicable to the audience. Their actions have consequences and thus we the audience care about the characters, their actions, their setbacks, and successes.

But you can not have an uncertain outcome in a prequel show. That is impossible by the very definition of a prequel.

But we do know how we got from A to B. We saw it in AOTC and ROTS. The Jedi get the clones, the clones fight the droids, and eventually Palpatine has the clones wipe out the Jedi. What's the point of a Clone Wars TV show or a story like Marrt? Like I said it would have been different had ROTS not come out before the Clone Wars show. I don't think very few people saw the clones as anything but bad guys until the CLone Wars movie and TV show because there was nothing in the two films to suggest otherwise.

I don't see what your problem is. Do you think the movies are so sacred that there is no place for anything other than them to flesh thins out ever? Or do you just think that the authors of every EU thing must obey the movies like a bible and newer write anything that is not first confirmed in them?

The movies obviously could not show the clones human side just as they barely showed the Jedi or anything else. They were for all intents and purposes the family drama of the Skywalker family with the other characters only getting some action if they happen to be needed to support the main cast. The average trooper was completely irrelevant save for being an extra that shoots at stuff.

The series on the other hand has much more time to work with, so they will naturally show the characters in much greater detail. Thus making for a better characterization of the little people. Just becouse the movies do not show something does not mean it can not exist. Nothing in the movies contradicts in any way that the clones might be good people with a human nature.


It just seems to me that you are constantly taking your own views of the show and turning them into blanket statements.
Your posts would make sense if I just substituted the word "Audience" with your name. But as they are, they are worthless and outright false. In fact, me arguing with you over this proves that you are wrong. Since obviously the audience can not agree with you if there are people like me who disagree with you.

Sure they can be human - bad humans, you know like the type who killed Luke's aunt and uncle and a bunch of Jawas and gunned down their former allies many of whom they shot in the back.

Now I feel the need to point out something to you. You don't have to be an evil person to do evil things in the line of duty like that. There was a fine discussion on the subject in the history forum recently. I will see if I can find it for you. Until than, the bottom line is that peer pressure, orders from above and the knowledge that it's better to shoot something that does not shoot back than to explain to Lord Vader why you disobeyed him will make even good people do evil things.

Looking at WW2 as the most recent example. Most Japanese, Germans, Russians and Americans were not monsters yet we have numerous war crimes on all sides of WW2. By your claim, every single soldier participating in those crimes had to be a sociopath. And yet most of them were actually fine church going people who would send letters home to their girlfriend and like to play with puppies.

It's a miracle what ordinary people will do given the right conditions.

Trying to give the clones any type of individuality or humanity is pointless to the overall story. Their role in the story both in the Prequels and Original Trilogy is that of the faceless nameless henchmen of the bad guys.

Becouse you said so? For someone who knows so much about the actual point of the movies you sure can't prove a thing. Perhaps you had dinner last night with mister Lucas and asked him about it? Unless this is the case, you have no authority to tell us and the writers what the point of the cartoon is.

Did anyone care what the Stormtroopers were thinking when they were attacking Hoth? No because they aren't the focal point of the story. They're the unknown Nazis that get obliterated in Raiders of the Lost Ark, the Sheriff of Nottingham's men who get skewered by Robin Hood's arrows, the countless orcs killed in Lord of the Rings.

And yet in the Clone Wars Cartoon Series they are the focal point of the story. It is the story of the Clone Wars and the clones fighting in them. The Jedi are the ones relegated to supporting roles here. In many ways it is the opposite of the movies.

If you are going to have a story about clones who are individualistic and heroic you have to address that at or near the beginning and certainly before the end of their character arc such as when they gun down the Jedi. the problem is there was absolutely nothing in ROTS that shows the clones to be anything more than the bad guys and not tragic figures - that notion only came out after the Clone Wars TV series.

And what exatcly were you expecting to see? I think the topic is perfectly adressed in the game SW Battlefront 2 at the begeaning of the Jedi Temple mission.

See the first minute of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTbGza2Lkl8

Do you see any hestitation or sense of tragedy here other than the tragedy of the Jedi being killed by those they assumed were their allies? At 0:20 Commander Cody, Obiwan's buddy for years, gets the order and immediately says to his troopers to "Blast him!" which they do right away. Look at 1:22 when they keep shooting the Jedi chick in the back after she has already fallen. Am I suppose to feel sorry for them? But yeah you're right the clones are human. The human traits I see here are deviousness, cowardliness, and treachery - all very human aspects but no tragedy.

They reacted in the same way any professional soldier would. Obey orders now, cry about it later on your own free time. Again look at the WW2 example. Soldiers would routinely perform war crimes on order without hesitation only to crack up later. War does that to a mind, and regardless of what you say they for them that was a real war.

The rest of the world? Sorry but that is laughably presumptious. And the authors are getting a paycheck. "You want me to write a story about clones saving a Wookie orphanage? How much is this going to pay? Sure!"

You are the only person I know of that levies the kind of criticism that you do against the series. On the other hand, all I can find on the net is how well the series is received by the audience. This is further proven by the fact that it is now in it's what 3rd or 4th season.

If the series was as bad as you paint it to be you would think there would be some article, some survey you could link to proving that you are not alone on this one. Therefore I call you out on this. Provide proof or give in.

The clones are fundamentally good men? They're not even men. They were grown from a petri-dish, aged unnaturally, fed who knows what Nazi-esque propaganda in those 10 years, taught only to be a soldier and nothing else, and did I mentioned Palpatine was behind their creation?

And that proves what exactly? That they are somehow inhuman? They are Clones, as in clones of a human (in this case Mandalorian). Just becouse they were grown from a vat does not diminish their humanity. I take it that you are also pro harvesting them for organs if need be to save the "real" human beings.

And I won't even address the notion that if someone was raised with propaganda he becomes subhuman in some way and therefore a mindless mook.

The whole thing is unnatural and even the music is ominous. The only assurances of their complete obedience (which kind of takes away from them being individualistic) comes from the Kamino prime minister who for all we know is in cahoots with Palpatine directly perhaps for a lifetime contract of supplying him with clones. Watch the scene where they killed the Jedi again. Do you still see fundamentally good men when they are gunning down their former allies in the back? Those are not the actions of fundamentally good men.

That scene pretty much is the manager of a factory giving a speech about how good her products are.

They can think creatively, they are immensely superior to droids they are perfect, they are obedient, we are proud of our training programs. It all screams of the same behavior you would rightfully expect from someone who makes her life selling stuff to people. Taking this and turning it into a factual statement about the capabilities of the individual clone would be pretty much like looking at a tv commercial and drawing conclusions from there.

Funny you mention TV tropes. PunchClockVillians - bad guys (not fundamentally good men) who have nothing personal against their enemy, like Mafia hitmen. You're right though perhaps the clones aren't evil, they're just amoral with no principles or standards.

No, they are professional soldiers doing their job fighting for Republic and Chancelor. And if that means killing your friend for the greater good than that is a sacrafice that a soldier must be willing to make. To find a paralel, look at any army that executes deserters or those labeled arbitrarily by command to be traitors. Does that make the soldiers that do the deed evil? Or does it simply make them soldiers fallowing orders and shutting up. Double so if every one of them were to have a face concealing mask that hides emotions but has a microphone inside to let everyone in the whole galaxy hear should he mutter a grump or complaint.

Yep, whole lot of tragedy going on here!

You don't get it becouse for some reason you dislike ever having to characterize with anyone other than the hero. The fact that you can not see the tragedy in there does not mean that there is none, just that you suck at looking.

For some reason of your own, you desperately want the clones to be nothing but flat characters, cardboard cutouts that exist only to add to the background. And when things are not like that, you go into a rage about how it is bad writing. You reject anything that is not according to your norm. You are like the people who rejected abstract art becouse it is not what everyone else is doing. You define good writing as fitting to your taste.

I'm not going to counter every point you make because I feel I have done that enough already and this getting way too much into quotes within quotes with quotes that become such a headache to read.

But I will comment on one aspect which is at the heart of the matter involving the story with Marrt and the story structure surrounding it. Whether you realize it or not you have insulted anyone who has ever been in the military to compare them and their actions to the clone troopers when they gunned down the Jedi.

What you are talking about has never happened within a modern military - the sudden turning on an ally and executing them in cold blood. Most of the Jedi we see killed are killed from behind. This is not the same as shooting at retreating enemy soldiers who can regroup and attack at a latter time. This is treacherously turning on your ally and killing them. Imagine if at Normandy on D-Day we suddenly attacked the British from the rear at Sword and Juno. That would be equivalent to what the clones did.

Then you say:

They reacted in the same way any professional soldier would. Obey orders now, cry about it later on your own free time. Again look at the WW2 example. Soldiers would routinely perform war crimes on order without hesitation only to crack up later. War does that to a mind, and regardless of what you say they for them that was a real war.

Sorry but "I was only following orders" went out with Nuremburg. Comparing clone troopers to WW2 soldiers (unless they were the Nazis which the Empire was pretty much based on) is pretty low and you might want to rethink your position.

This is the problem I had with this story about Marrt and its message, a message which in another story structure would be fine but here with a clone trooper who will one day turn on his allies and support a tyranny without question, that message comes off as twisted.

And your defense of their actions comes off as twisted. WWII soldiers did not routinely perform war crimes without hesitation (unless it was the Nazis). That is an insult to those who served and who serve now.

There was a fine discussion on the subject in the history forum recently. I will see if I can find it for you. Until than, the bottom line is that peer pressure, orders from above and the knowledge that it's better to shoot something that does not shoot back than to explain to Lord Vader why you disobeyed him will make even good people do evil things.

You're justifying cowardliness and willingfully obeying an illegal order. And no, whatever that discussion came to, it is not ok to blindly follow orders whatever the reason.

As a professional soldier you are duty bound to follow all LAWFUL orders. Whether the clones realized it or not their actions obviously weren't lawful because it was purge instigated by Palpatine so he could seize power. They are guilty of aiding in his usurption of power against the laws of the Republic.

As for your argument about following orders as a professional soldier would do, in Vietnam a private was charge with the murder of a Vietnamese citizen because he was ordered to do so (his superior was later diagnosed as insane). The response to that defense was:

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/military ... orders.htm
"the justification for acts done pursuant to orders does not exist if the order was of such a nature that a man of ordinary sense and understanding would know it to be illegal."

Apologies if this seems like dogpiling but since he initially responded to my post I feel obligated to reply.

ronindave wrote: So you admit they are evil then? Then why make a story about a heroic clone trooper who is just stringing the Jedi along?

The clones turned on the Jedi because they were bred/programmed to do just that, that in no way precludes them from acts of heroism or even benevolence. In fact it makes the betrayal all that much more tragic.

Yeah - bad individual traits. Far better would have been the troopers showing some signs even if subtle of them not being the good guys errr... clones they appear to be. May be a little too much ruthlessness which they defend as being necessary due to the war but some of the Jedi begin to get wary

This actually happened on Kashyyk around the time Quinlan Vos was stationed with Luminara Unduli. Rahm Kota from Force Unleashed has his misgivings as well so I read.

Darth Fanboy wrote: Yes the admitted bias of wanting a good consistent story. Marrt's story kind of sums up what's wrong the whole clone war saga. We know he's a bad guy. Either he's been evil from Day 1 or he is a programmed fleshy droid that one day is your friend and the next wants to kill you. The first scenario means he has free will and chooses to hoodwink the Jedi until Order 66 is given or he has no free will and is little more than a droid.

You are missing the point. The clones were bred to be soldiers and to fight for the Republic. They weren't bred to be good or evil and despite their individuality they by and large all held this opinion.

As far as your droid comment, this is an issue that has been touched on. The clones had been accused of being little more than meat droids. Some Jedi like Obi Wan Kenobi did their best to portray the clones in a more human and personal light to dispel this, but ultimately Order 66 and loyalty to the Chancellor took precedence because the clones were programmed to be loyal soldiers. The book "Dark Lord" does depict a unit of clones who actually resist Order 66, but they are the only known clones who refused the order.

Also what bugs me about this story is how it almost seems to want to be a salute to those in the Armed Forces currently in Iraq and Afghanistan with its message of "that even the actions of a single soldier could be very important." I certainly hope that's not the case because it is so wrong on so many levels.

Perish the thought that individuals might just have great moments?

1) Marrt didn't choose to fight this war. He wasn't even drafted in a sense. He was created almost in the same way a droid was. He fights because he was created to fight and he was trained to do nothing else but be a soldier.

So why do you chalk this up to some goofy idea of bad storytelling when it is part of the ultimate Sith deception? It has nothing with how evil the clones are and everything to do with the manipulations of Darth Sidious who has been literally plotting for decades.

2) Marrt is one of the bad guys. Eventually by his own choice or pre-programmed choice he will turn on his Jedi allies and gun them down then he will go on to become one of the jack-booted thugs of the Empire who enforces the oppressive will of the Emperor

Here you go with that "bad guys" bullshit, what are you seven years old? He's a soldier bred to be loyal to the Republic, if anything he has been duped into believing that the Jedi have rebelled more than anything else.

3) his actions mean diddly-squat because the Republic that he works for, its leader is controlling the Separatists and he secretly works for him to ultimately wipe out the Jedi and turn the democratic Republic into the tyrannical Empire.

Because every heroic action must be ultimately successful I forgot.

No matter how heroic brave Wally Marrt was here or his clone brethern in the Clone Wars, I can't root or even sympathize for a bunch of clones that eventually wipe out their allies and go on to become the Storm Troopers.

Yeah the millions of clones who died fighting alongside and sometimes even risking their lives for Jedi comrades and Generals are the gultiest of all.

I also feel the need to add the following:

Ronindave the entire point of the war and the chaos beforehand was to cloud the force so the Jedi would be less able to percieve what was taking place. The Clone Army was bred to fight alongside the Jedi and ultimately betray them without hatred or malice because a Jedi would sense anger and hatred and be more likely to prevent the attack. The deception itself was the final culmination of 1000 years of plotting by Darth Bane's Sith Order.

The Clones do not understand this and never do, the relative few original Fett clones that survive to become Imperial stormtroopers, loyal to the Republic/Empire above all else, fully believe that they are fighting for a just cause even when viewers with hindsight and third person perspective like you and I can see clearly that they aren't. Justification comes in the form of finding rebels and the ends justifying the means, which is a tactic Palpatine uses publically to gain support for even the most wicked of his policies.

We see clones fight and die heroically on Geonosis in Episode II, many dying to save the handful of Jedi in the Geonosian arena. To say that the story becomes inconsistent after that point by depicting heroic clones is contradictory.

ronindave wrote:

Purple wrote:Short version is you don't need an uncertain outcome to have tension.

It has nothing to do with an uncertain outcome unless you really thought Luke wasn't going to blow up the Death Star. The point is that within the confines of the story the outcome is uncertain thus making the characters' struggles more real and applicable to the audience. Their actions have consequences and thus we the audience care about the characters, their actions, their setbacks, and successes.

Is there no tension in a World War Two movie because we know who wins the war? I mean, I don't get this- you don't need an uncertain outcome, but the outcome is uncertain within the story.

Doesn't add up, not to me.

If you are going to have a story about clones who are individualistic and heroic you have to address that at or near the beginning and certainly before the end of their character arc such as when they gun down the Jedi. the problem is there was absolutely nothing in ROTS that shows the clones to be anything more than the bad guys and not tragic figures - that notion only came out after the Clone Wars TV series.

Pretty much all the media released since Episode II started to portray the clones as the good guys, or at least the foot soldiers fighting for the good guys who genuinely believed they were fighting for the Republic.

There's a lot of ambiguity there, mind you- some portrayals make the clones look like premeditated betrayers, while others have them fighting loyally and being suddenly mind controlled when Order 66 is enacted. But I don't think we should mindlessly adhere to one or the other. Hell, it might actually vary among different clone units, with some receiving more indoctrination to "prepare" them to oppose the Jedi, while others were simply programmed to kill Jedi and allowed to form their own attachments as long as they can be counted on to follow that programming when the time comes.

Darth Fanboy let me sum it up for you rather quickly about why none of the heroism matters that CLones like Marrt do and why making stories about clone heroism is pointless.

Benedict Arnold. You might have heard of him. Even 200 years later his name is synonymous with treachery and yet before he planned to sell out West Point he did considerable service for the cause of the American Revolution. Does anyone want to hear of his heroic deeds prior to his treachery? For the most part, no because he was a traitor. Whatever good he did was rendered null and void the moment he turned against his allies. For those who supported the Old Republic they would not have thought of these Clone Troopers soon to be Storm Troopers as heroes regardless of what they did in the Clone Wars nor would they wish to talk about their brave deeds.

And speaking of loyalty you mentioned they were bred to be loyal to the Republic. Considering Palpatine was behind their creation it's more apt to say they were bred to be loyal to him. They certainly had no problem when the Republic was overthrown and the Empire was created and later the Senate disbanded effectively removing any last vestige of the Republic you believe them to be loyal to. I'm sure some EU band-aid covers this but from the films themselves that's how the clones come off IMHO.

ronindave wrote:Darth Fanboy let me sum it up for you rather quickly about why none of the heroism matters that CLones like Marrt do and why making stories about clone heroism is pointless.

Benedict Arnold. You might have heard of him. Even 200 years later his name is synonymous with treachery and yet before he planned to sell out West Point he did considerable service for the cause of the American Revolution. Does anyone want to hear of his heroic deeds prior to his treachery? For the most part, no because he was a traitor. Whatever good he did was rendered null and void the moment he turned against his allies.

And yet very few people flip their shit when history books contain records of Arnold's role at Quebec or (more important) Saratoga... as you do about stories which portray clonetroopers as doing anything positive.

I mean, is it that important that clonetroopers be shown as unambigously evil minions? Does it equally bother you that there are pieces set in the EU which have stormtroopers being the good guys against some other threat? I mean, it's not as if you can reasonably argue that the average person does not or cannot like such stories, even if you don't like them.

The only way I can make sense of this is that you're somehow worried that having stories about how a person does something good, when that person later turns around and does something bad, will be objectively harmful.

Is this just your personal dislike of clonetroopers being portrayed as anything other than evil ogres, since only evil ogres would ultimately turn on Our Heroes at the villain's bidding?

I have to wonder at how much shit roninderp would flip over Legacy's Joker Squad.

ronindave wrote:Darth Fanboy let me sum it up for you rather quickly about why none of the heroism matters that CLones like Marrt do and why making stories about clone heroism is pointless.

Benedict Arnold. You might have heard of him. Even 200 years later his name is synonymous with treachery and yet before he planned to sell out West Point he did considerable service for the cause of the American Revolution. Does anyone want to hear of his heroic deeds prior to his treachery? For the most part, no because he was a traitor. Whatever good he did was rendered null and void the moment he turned against his allies. For those who supported the Old Republic they would not have thought of these Clone Troopers soon to be Storm Troopers as heroes regardless of what they did in the Clone Wars nor would they wish to talk about their brave deeds.

I know about Benedict Arnold and I especially know that your analogy is terrible. Arnold was not genetically conditioned for loyalty nor was he part of a plot by the British King who had been plotting in secret for many years. You also ignore that no clone switched sides and that not every clone became a stormtrooper since many of them, y'know...died. The Arnold comparison ignores that the clones were generally unwavering (almost entirely but not quite) in their loyalty to their nation.

And speaking of loyalty you mentioned they were bred to be loyal to the Republic. Considering Palpatine was behind their creation it's more apt to say they were bred to be loyal to him. They certainly had no problem when the Republic was overthrown and the Empire was created and later the Senate disbanded effectively removing any last vestige of the Republic you believe them to be loyal to. I'm sure some EU band-aid covers this but from the films themselves that's how the clones come off IMHO.

They were bred to be loyal to the office that Palpatine would eventually hold. Clones played no role in the abolition of the Senate. You ignored my earlier point about the Clones not having all of the information we do as third party observers. Order 66 to them was in place to counter a Jedi Coup and the truth was distorted by Palpatine, who fooled more than just the clone army.

Plus, you ignore the fact that the original Fett clones made up an increasingly small part of the Imperial Stormtroopers from Episode III on to the OT.

This is quite easily one of the dumbest Star Wars complaints I have ever heard.

ronindave wrote:I'm not going to counter every point you make because I feel I have done that enough already and this getting way too much into quotes within quotes with quotes that become such a headache to read.

So you are conceding every single point I made that you refuse to reply to? I will give you one replies time to change your mind.

But I will comment on one aspect which is at the heart of the matter involving the story with Marrt and the story structure surrounding it. Whether you realize it or not you have insulted anyone who has ever been in the military to compare them and their actions to the clone troopers when they gunned down the Jedi.

What you are talking about has never happened within a modern military - the sudden turning on an ally and executing them in cold blood. Most of the Jedi we see killed are killed from behind. This is not the same as shooting at retreating enemy soldiers who can regroup and attack at a latter time. This is treacherously turning on your ally and killing them. Imagine if at Normandy on D-Day we suddenly attacked the British from the rear at Sword and Juno. That would be equivalent to what the clones did.

It is exactly the same. After all, the Jedi are dangerous warriors. They can regroup and as Yoda has show make a mess of you if they sense the slightest cause for alarm. It's better to shoot them in the back out of sheer self preservation.

Sorry but "I was only following orders" went out with Nuremburg. Comparing clone troopers to WW2 soldiers (unless they were the Nazis which the Empire was pretty much based on) is pretty low and you might want to rethink your position.

No I do notn have to. You have to rethink yours. Becouse you blatantly refuse to believe in the facts.

This is the problem I had with this story about Marrt and its message, a message which in another story structure would be fine but here with a clone trooper who will one day turn on his allies and support a tyranny without question, that message comes off as twisted.

A tyranny he believes in is right? Why can't you see that you can not apply your ideas to the characters. After all, as far as things went for many people the Empire was an era of order and prosperity that came after a vicious civil war. In character, their actions make perfect sense. And that is all they need to. The writers can not and should not form the actions of their characters to make sense with the big picture that the characters can not know about.

And your defense of their actions comes off as twisted. WWII soldiers did not routinely perform war crimes without hesitation (unless it was the Nazis). That is an insult to those who served and who serve now.

Yes they did, on all sides. You have the numerous war crimes against German soldiers and civilians committed by the Russian army. And if you think war crimes did not happen in France fallowing D-Day you are sadly mistaken.

You're justifying cowardliness and willingfully obeying an illegal order. And no, whatever that discussion came to, it is not ok to blindly follow orders whatever the reason.

It is if you have any sense of self preservation. It's nice to be an arm chair moralist when you are not in such a situation. But if you were out there I bet you would be singing a different tune.

As a professional soldier you are duty bound to follow all LAWFUL orders. Whether the clones realized it or not their actions obviously weren't lawful because it was purge instigated by Palpatine so he could seize power. They are guilty of aiding in his usurption of power against the laws of the Republic.

And why do you think the actions were not lawful as you put it? Did the Republic suddenly sign up to our earth conventions while I was not looking? You can not apply our rules of engagement and customs of war to a different galaxy. And hell, you can not even apply our way of thinking. For all we know, it is customary in the SW galaxy for soldiers to be duty bound to fallow any order, lawful or not. There is certainly nothing in the movies ever counteracting that.

Also, what the others said.
Again and again I will repeat. One does not have to be absolutely and unredeemable evil to do things that are objectively evil to the outside observer. And I for one firmly believe that having characters who are not flat cardboard cutout mooks helps make the story better and does not detract from it. Hell even Tolkiens orks were shown to have character and personality beyond just kill rape burn.

Purple wrote:

ronindave wrote:I'm not going to counter every point you make because I feel I have done that enough already and this getting way too much into quotes within quotes with quotes that become such a headache to read.

So you are conceding every single point I made that you refuse to reply to? I will give you one replies time to change your mind.

To be fair, if what he does say manages to respond to the substance of what you said, no one is served by an additional thousand words of quote spaghetti and back-and-forth between you.

It is exactly the same. After all, the Jedi are dangerous warriors. They can regroup and as Yoda has show make a mess of you if they sense the slightest cause for alarm. It's better to shoot them in the back out of sheer self preservation.

Er... better if the clone army had not shot the Jedi at all. I would argue, much better. But that doesn't mean every clone is a terrible person who should always be portrayed as a monster.

You're justifying cowardliness and willingfully obeying an illegal order. And no, whatever that discussion came to, it is not ok to blindly follow orders whatever the reason.

It is if you have any sense of self preservation. It's nice to be an arm chair moralist when you are not in such a situation. But if you were out there I bet you would be singing a different tune.

I might- but then, I'd like to think I'd at least have the guts not to bitch about it if the victorious opposition refused to take "I was just following orders!" for an answer. The Nuremberg defense is seriously, seriously flawed, Purple; you should know this. The flaw is that it completely removes the obligation of individuals to consider their role in the state- ignores the fact that governments are ultimately accountable to their people, and that the people are ultimately responsible for policing their government.

People who serve a tyrant as willing slaves and assist him in his attempt to make slaves of others are not only not part of the solution to tyranny, they are part of the problem. It is their active decision to contribute to the problem, to make matters worse by becoming involved in evil acts, that makes it so hard to stop the tyrant in the first place. And this is why the Nuremberg defense is so weak- because it tries to effortlessly absolve the willing slaves of the tyrant for having obeyed him willingly, because it abandons their responsibility to live up to the standard of the people who were unwillingly placed under the tyrant's rule, and to the standard of those who opposed the tyrant's rule.

Now, to be fair, the clonetroopers are like robots in that they arguably do not have the mental capability to disobey an order. They, and just about only they, can conceivably make the Nuremberg defense work... but only if and when there is evidence that they weren't willing perpetrators of atrocities.

I certainly wouldn't use the Nuremberg defense to try and prove the clonetroopers are good guys.

To be fair, if what he does say manages to respond to the substance of what you said, no one is served by an additional thousand words of quote spaghetti and back-and-forth between you.

I disagree. But lets not start a second debate on this thread about that.

Er... better if the clone army had not shot the Jedi at all. I would argue, much better. But that doesn't mean every clone is a terrible person who should always be portrayed as a monster

.
All I was saying is that the clones acted in the very human way of thinking of them self first. After all, they are conditioned to fight for the good of the republic and to believe the republic leaders. And just now, they have been told that the guy in front of them who just hacked apart a bunch of droids like they were toys was going to turn on them. They reacted the same way I would have.

The Nuremberg defense is seriously, seriously flawed, Purple; you should know this. The flaw is that it completely removes the obligation of individuals to consider their role in the state- ignores the fact that governments are ultimately accountable to their people, and that the people are ultimately responsible for policing their government.

As a criminal defense perhaps. But this is not a criminal trial. We are not determining if the clones were criminal responsible before modern day earth laws but if they were complete monsters or just humans, doing their job and being pushed into it by a mixture of propaganda, fear and peer pressure. In other words, my argument is that the clones and by relation stormtroopers were not necessarily evil at all, just human.


The average soldier committing such acts is not in fact evil or a monster. The government official ordering it might be (Lord Vader anyone?) but the soldier would be insane to reject orders. Would you stand up to someone like Vader and say: "Sorry ser, but my continence does not allow me to shoot the Javas."

People who serve a tyrant as willing slaves and assist him in his attempt to make slaves of others are not only not part of the solution to tyranny, they are part of the problem.

But that does not make them evil in the slightest. Rome kept slaves but that did not make every roman citizen and soldier an evil monster. And nether was the average British, Spanish or French citizen or even soldier during the colonial eras. If the kind of behavior is considered socially acceptable or even desired than that is the way people will behave. In fact, the fact that the clones/stormtroopers served the empire like they did underscores my point. You don't have to be evil to be human.

It is their active decision to contribute to the problem, to make matters worse by becoming involved in evil acts, that makes it so hard to stop the tyrant in the first place. And this is why the Nuremberg defense is so weak- because it tries to effortlessly absolve the willing slaves of the tyrant for having obeyed him willingly, because it abandons their responsibility to live up to the standard of the people who were unwillingly placed under the tyrant's rule, and to the standard of those who opposed the tyrant's rule.

So what you are saying is that what should have happened is a mass clone rebellion? That is so unrealistic that it is silly.
The fact is that it is normal human behavior not to act in that way. The Nuremberg defense is simply a logical conclusion based on human nature and I for one consider it perfectly valid. It's all nice and well to say what someone should have done in hindsight from the safety of an armchair and years later. But being there and you would act the same way they did.

Now, to be fair, the clonetroopers are like robots in that they arguably do not have the mental capability to disobey an order. They, and just about only they, can conceivably make the Nuremberg defense work... but only if and when there is evidence that they weren't willing perpetrators of atrocities.

As far as I understand they were not so much incapable of disobeying as indoctrinated to obey. As in they truly believe that their orders are the right thing to do to the point that they simply have no doubt. And we even have canon sources showing that they did doubt. That video I linked to is from a PC game (a low canon source but canon none the less) essential gives a quote: "Did we have any doubt about what we were about to do? Perhaps, but we kept our mouths shut and did what we were told." Does that sound like the thoughts of an evil person to you?

I call the clones evil because they serve the cause of evil. Palpatine is without question evil. His Empire was established as evil way back in 1977 - the allusion to the Nazi Third Reich being rather evident. Everyone that serves the Empire is serving the cause of evil even if they themselves have a family and give money to orphans.

Palpatine, an evil man, was behind the creation of the clones. That much is obvious so we have to assume that he made sure the clones would be his effective tools and no one else's. For all we know he could have imbued the clones genetic material with the Dark Side.

The purpose of their creation was to twofold: 1) fight a fake war that Palpatine fabricated and was controlling in order for him to acquire more power; and 2) help Palpatine sieze ultimate power by eliminating his enemies.

And they fulfilled this purpose. They were the effective tools of evil and they continued to serve that evil. It doesn't really matter if they are robots or misguided, They serve evil and as simon jester points out in that case you are not the solution but part of the problem.

Because they are clones the question comes up can they be evil if they have no intent? They are following orders but that excuse didn't work in Nuremburg; however those at Nuremburg were humans capable of making a choice. The clones aren't human. They are tools, basically weapons.

They are tools that act and think but follow orders without question. Despite comparisons to professional soldiers (which is insulting IMHO), clone troopers have the capacity to commit atrocities (as they did with the Jedi) and not show the slightest hestitation or remorse. The clones turn on their former allies as we see in ROTS savagely gunning them down and others back up Anakin when he slaughters children. If they were human they would undoubtably be called evil for going along with these actions.

The clones aren't humans but what they are is dangerous. They can't be trusted. They're ammoral beings who seemingly can't even recognize the wrong in what they are doing. If all the clones at the end of ROTS became the Storm Troopers of the OT, I could imagine after ROTJ people wanting them destroyed after all the death and destruction they caused. Otherwise they would cheerfully serve the New Republic until the next clever bad guy came along and bam! you have another Jedi genocide on your hands.

As to what I said referring to Benedict Arnold, it has nothing to do about him being bred to be loyal to the Republic or any such nonsense. I was referring to how people view him as people in the SW universe would view the clones. Both did a lot of good in the beginning but once they turned on their country/Republic, all the good they did was rendered null and void. They were traitors whether by choice (Arnold) or pre-programmed/indoctrinated (clones). I doubt those who joined the Rebel Alliance would care for stories about the heroics of clones like Marrt considering what he and his kind did later. Regardless how those clones viewed it, they betrayed their allies and they allowed an evil man to sieze power.

Basically it just seems pointless and rather twisted to come up with stories of clone heroics when with a flip of the switch (literally or figuratively) those "heroes" commit mass murder at the order of an evil man. And trying to make a positive message and allusions to modern soldiers using the Clone Troopers in a positive light like here with Marrt is a bad idea for these reasons.