Mace Windu vs. Count Dooku

[ChosenOne54]

I've always wondered who would win in a duel. Mace Windu or Count Dooku, in an all out fight. All force abilities are allowed, and the fight takes place in the same room where Mace fought Palpatine in Episode 3.

Who wins?

[NettiWelho]

Magic eightball says "Absolute uncertainty"

Depends on how the writer dispenses his character-shield candy.

[Metahive]

Windu. Dooku isn't as formidable in either the Force or lightsaber fencing as Palpatine and Palpy lost to Windu (any debates whether Palpy threw the fight notwithstanding).

[Kingmaker]

I'm pretty sure Mace takes this one handily. By all accounts he is younger, more powerful, and more skillful a fencer than Dooku. Even if Palps threw the fight when Anakin showed up, Mace managed to keep up for that long, and nothing suggests that Dooku was in Palpatine's league.

[NecronLord]

I'm not sure about 'more skillful' as a fencer. Dooku's described as being hot-shit on matters of pure skill in that regard. Windu has this Vapaad thing going though.

Moved thread.

[Metahive]

More skillfull than Palpatine at least since he managed to disarm him.

[NecronLord]

There's more than skill as a fencer involved. Force powers matter at least as much and probably a lot more than skill with a blade - it's what enable all the silly twirling and things that Jedi do, it's also what enables Dooku to say, pick Obi Wan up, and then boot Anakin across the move.

If swordsmanship were the only thing that was important, Darth Vader (by dint of being straight up played by a RL master swordsman in the scenes where he fought) would be the best by far, followed by Dooku (Christopher Lee, at least as a younger man, fenced as a hobby). Without the force, Anakin would have simply been skewered by Dooku, for instance; his movements are broad sweeps of the sword with very little control, for instance, while a lot of Dooku's are very controlled movements that depend on forward movement and strokes to centre of mass, the kind of thing you see in olympic fencing. Some of the things Jedi, particularly in the new films, would just get them scored against in real fencing long before they could land a blow.

Dooku's actual technique as a fencer is rather good, though somewhat compromised by the need of the film to have him make showy gestures.

[Captain Seafort]

If swordsmanship were the only thing that was important, Darth Vader (by dint of being straight up played by a RL master swordsman in the scenes where he fought) would be the best by far, followed by Dooku (Christopher Lee, at least as a younger man, fenced as a hobby).

Don't forget Qui-Gon. Neeson had experience with how to use a sword properly from Rob Roy.

Dooku's actual technique as a fencer is rather good, though somewhat compromised by the need of the film to have him make showy gestures.

Regarding Dooku's fights, do you know if Lee did any of the fencing himself, or left all of it to his stunt double? If he actually did some of it himself that might explain some of the proper fencing rather than just waving a stick about

[Adam Reynolds]

I recall a source claiming that without Vaapad, only Dooku and Yoda were able to defeat Mace. As the only true master of Vapaad he was essentially undefeated.

[Knife]

I'm going to make a couple distinctions. I think Mace is more powerful in the Force but Dooku is more skilled with the Force in various places. Sort of the same difference between Anakin and Obi Wan. One is just more powerful, more Force power able to come to his need quicker, while the other has just more experience using what he has. I think the same is happening with the sword master side of the house. Mace is more powerful, younger, aggressive, able to bring his raw Force power into the mix, while Dooku has way more experience fencing, way more experience using his Force skills in a sword fight.

One of the themes of the prequels, and IIRC mentioned specifically in the books, was that the Jedi weren't really used to being in action. Their battle skills were pretty ornate at the start of the Clone Wars because of years of disuse. But with the coming of the Clone Wars their battle skills really got honed. A militarized Order was part of Palpatines plan to both distract the Jedi and sell the Order 66 later on.

[NecronLord]

Don't forget Qui-Gon. Neeson had experience with how to use a sword properly from Rob Roy.

Well, various actors do sword-fighting. But there's a bit more real background there, and in the original trilogy.

Regarding Dooku's fights, do you know if Lee did any of the fencing himself, or left all of it to his stunt double? If he actually did some of it himself that might explain some of the proper fencing rather than just waving a stick about

He states he did much of it himself, with a double doing the more vigorous footwork (presumably the shots where he turns to fight more than one jedi, or where he's going up the stairs) bits.

His curved lightsaber hilt was deliberately chosen by Lee to resemble the famous sword of his ancestor Emperor Charlemagne, too.

Vader's very good as well because his sword-scenes were done by Bob Anderson (Olympic Fencer), and most fights were arranged by him, while the prequel scenes were mostly done by Nick Gillard, a stunt man, which is why they're a lot showier, and a lot less realistic.

In universe, though, the prequel style battles are meant to truly be much more dangerous.

[Havok]

Windu. He's got the EU Vapaad and Shatterpoint fuckery. As pointed out, Windu is basically at the height of his power and only a betrayal by Anakin was able to best him. Fuck everyone that says that Palpatine threw that fight. Evidence on screen shows he got his ass handed to him and that's that.

I would imagine that Dooku would never even allow a confrontation between himself and Mace to even happen.

[Simon_Jester]

I think that Windu would carry this one on a combination of physical condition (younger, more aggressive, physically more powerful) and a... call it a 'style' of Force use which is more confrontational and focused on combat. That said, I don't think it would be a walkover.

Regarding Dooku's fights, do you know if Lee did any of the fencing himself, or left all of it to his stunt double? If he actually did some of it himself that might explain some of the proper fencing rather than just waving a stick about

Heh. For this reason, I'm convinced that the EU name for whatever 'school' of lightsaber fencing Dooku uses should translate into English as:

"Young man, I was practicing with edged weapons before you were born, and this wheeling and prancing about is utterly ridiculous; I'll have no part of it, not at my time of life."

Which Christopher Lee could quite reasonably have said to pretty much anyone involved in the creation of Episode II, including Lucas.

[PainRack]

And I would like to say again that I wish the lightsabre fight for Episode III was better chereographed and planned out. Only the battle between Anakin and Obiwan was enjoyable to watch.

Mace Windu, for all his so called awesomeness looked like a kid swinging a toy. Palpatine was worse.....

[Panzersharkcat]

I think the fight scene failure was because George Lucas insisted that Ian McDiarmid do the fight himself despite him being, you know, old.

[Havok]

I think the fight scene failure was because George Lucas insisted that Ian McDiarmid do the fight himself despite him being, you know, old.

I thought it was a head transfer like they did in the Lee/Dooku scenes in AOTC?

[Agent Sorchus]

Partially that McDiarmid is old yes, but so was Christopher Lee. What really did the Windu v.Palpatine fight in is that neither actor was a trained swordsman or had any actual practice in that type of stagefighting. The fight coordinator got each one to use exactly one type of attack and simple had it repeated throughout the fight (Windu> slashing; Palpatine >Stabbing).

edit: Christopher Lee actually has some fencing skills afk

[Panzersharkcat]

Christopher Lee is a trained fencer and "did much of the swordplay himself, though a double was required for the more vigorous footwork." Source. I assume that was what happened with McDiarmid, minus the fencing skills.

[TheHammer]

I'd have rather scene an Anakin Windu fight rather than the simple "lop of an arm and force lighting" finish we saw. Would have been much more interesting to see Anakin "draw upon the dark side" (as luke did in ROTJ) and defeat Mace Windu, with Palpatine remarking how his "hate has made him powerful". Would also make the Obi-wan upset victory over Anakin all the more compelling.

[Darth Tedious]

I'd have rather scene an Anakin Windu fight rather than the simple "lop of an arm and force lighting" finish we saw. Would have been much more interesting to see Anakin "draw upon the dark side" (as luke did in ROTJ) and defeat Mace Windu, with Palpatine remarking how his "hate has made him powerful". Would also make the Obi-wan upset victory over Anakin all the more compelling.

But Anakin drawing on the Dark Side wouldn't work against Windu, if we take all the Vaapad business into account. He's supposed to be able to channel Dark Side energy through himself and back on the user (without being affected by it). This was why he was able to use Palpy's Force Lightning against him, and why he was the only Jedi to have a reasonable chance of defeating Palpy.
But I agree, it would have been good to at least see Ani and Palpy team up against Windu to give him a more spectacular death.

[TheHammer]

I'd have rather scene an Anakin Windu fight rather than the simple "lop of an arm and force lighting" finish we saw. Would have been much more interesting to see Anakin "draw upon the dark side" (as luke did in ROTJ) and defeat Mace Windu, with Palpatine remarking how his "hate has made him powerful". Would also make the Obi-wan upset victory over Anakin all the more compelling.

But Anakin drawing on the Dark Side wouldn't work against Windu, if we take all the Vaapad business into account. He's supposed to be able to channel Dark Side energy through himself and back on the user (without being affected by it). This was why he was able to use Palpy's Force Lightning against him, and why he was the only Jedi to have a reasonable chance of defeating Palpy.
But I agree, it would have been good to at least see Ani and Palpy team up against Windu to give him a more spectacular death.

I don't buy the Windu Vaapad wankery. Anakin was supposed to be "the chosen one" and the most powerful force user alive. Seeing him defeat Windu alone would have been a far more impressive setup to the Obi-Wan duel than having him kill a room full of padawans followed by a room fulle of unarmed separatist leaders.