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I was just reading the newest strip from Darths and Droids and he says in the commentary:

David Morgan-Marr wrote:At this point in the movie, Yoda and Obi-Wan have figured out that Palpatine and Anakin need to be stopped. Palpatine is on the same planet as they are, and Anakin has gone off somewhere and needs to be tracked down. Yoda and Obi-Wan both know that alone they may not be strong enough to take on either one of Palpatine or Anakin. They could go tackle Palpatine together and then together go find out where Anakin has gone and chase him down. So what do they do?

They split up.

Would sticking together to tackle Palpatine have been a good idea or would it have ended up having both of them getting their asses kicked? They could get to Mustafar after if they go through the security tapes after defeating Palpatine, if those also record sound, and Padme might not have gotten choked by Anakin.

Palpatine was strong enough in the force to take Yoda on at this point. Obi-Wan while strong was nowhere near Yoda in power. most likely he would have just been in the way.

Yoda was the avatar of the LIght Side and Obi Wan was the Poster Boy of a Jedi. Yoda figured out at the end of the duel with Palpatine that the Jedi were not up to fighting the Sith. Wrong training, kind of like the old adage of 'fighting the last war' type thing. They, and he by default, weren't up to it, didn't have the right training, strategy, tactics. So adding in Obi Wan could have done nothing. Just another target for Palpy to fling pods at.

The only reason Obi Wan was up to taking on Anakin was Anakin hadn't really been trained in Sith techniques yet. He was more 'Dark Jedi' at that point than actual Sith. So it was classically trained Jedi vs classically trained Jedi. And, of course, an emotional edge with Anakin and Obi Wan due to their history that Palpy and Yoda didn't have.

So no, I don't think teaming up would have mattered against Palpy. Teaming up against Anakin? Yeah, that would have gone better. Now if Yoda had gone with Windu, I think things would have gone down differently. Or if Yoda, Windu, and Obi Wan had faced Palpatine the first time, could have staved off Anakin when he came in for a game changer.

Panzersharkcat wrote: Would sticking together to tackle Palpatine have been a good idea or would it have ended up having both of them getting their asses kicked?

Most likely not. We all saw what Sidious did to four of the most renowned members of the Jedi Order: he swept through three of them with the greatest of ease and held the four off for a good while until Anakin showed up. I doubt that Obi-Wan could have been of much use to Yoda, had he died...so why need bring him along? Yoda knew on the one hand that he was evenly matched with Sidious. On the other hand, I figure that Yoda chose wisely in guessing that Obi-Wan could take down Skywalker while he would slay the Emperor, and low and behold he evaluated both matchups quite right IMO.

Kenobi might do better than some think. He is one of the best swordsmen in the Order, and he beat the Chosen One. He was also strong enough to hold his own vs. Anakin in a TK shoving match in the duel on Mustafar. I'm not convinced he'd be as useless as everyone seems to think.

The Romulan Republic wrote:Kenobi might do better than some think. He is one of the best swordsmen in the Order,

Who lost to Dooku twice.

and he beat the Chosen One.

He beat the Chosen One because Anakin wasn't a trained Sith, he was a trained Jedi and Obi Wan knew all his moves, and Anakin his. Where Yoda and Palpatine's fight revolved around experience on each of their skill sets and Palpy's came out on top, Anakin and Obi had the same skill set. So it came down to experience in that skill set and Obi had it.

Moreover Kenobi wasn't fighting for the victory, but the defeat of Anakin. In one of the previous threads about swordsmanship in star wars it was noted that the falling back the way Obiwan did is a technic to survive versus a more skilled or powerful fighter, and that the way Obiwan played brinksmanship with Anakin in their duel around the lava should have been the end of both of them made it clear that Obiwan cared less about surviving the duel than ending Anakin. It was also noted that the fight played right into the psyche weaknesses of Skywalker who is brash and impulsive. Obiwan knew this and played Anakin like a cheap whistle, he couldn't really do much with it but it was enough to give him the victory.

Knife, the second fight with Dooku wasn't a loss due to inferior swordsmanship, but rather being chucked across the room.

The second part of your post sounds reasonable, but I see you ignored that Kenobi is apparently on a level with Anakin in TK.

Anakin had an immature mind, especially when it came to Obi-Wan. He didn't have the correct mentality to beat Obi-Wan at checkers, let alone a life and death struggle that Anakin wasn't even fully vested in.

Keep in mind, that at this point Anakin in his mind, he had been betrayed by the Jedi, Obi-Wan in particular and now Padme. He also already offered to betray Palpatine, a man he had just swore his allegiance to and had just decimated the Jedi Order, the Separatist leadership and murdered 20 little kids.

Obi-Wans method of just countering his moves, was frustrating him and continuing to beat him down mentally until he made his nearly fatal mistake.

Anakin couldn't beat Obi-Wan in a TK battle simply because he couldn't believe he could. His faith in everything was shattered and even his belief in his own power, one garnered by the Jedi, was faltering.

The Romulan Republic wrote:Knife, the second fight with Dooku wasn't a loss due to inferior swordsmanship, but rather being chucked across the room.

The second part of your post sounds reasonable, but I see you ignored that Kenobi is apparently on a level with Anakin in TK.

You really can't separate Force use and swordsmanship in Jedi since they extensively rely on one for the other. Obi Wan was powerful, but not up to the level of Dooku or Palpatine.

I don't really see why this is so controversial. One on one, things are more or less equal. Two on one, and the advantage lies with whoever has teamed up to bully the other guy. It's just a given, frankly. The decision to split up was retarded and contrived in my opinion.

Even if Obi-wan can't defeat Palpatine, he doesn't need to because he's not doing it by himself. He can serve as a distraction for Yoda to wtfpwn Palpatine. But even so, I don't buy this 'Palpatine is so much stronger' etc. The duel between him and Mace Windu was laughable.

To be fair, Windu was uniquely equipped to beat Palpatine, what with the Form VII thingy and all...

Stofsk wrote:I don't really see why this is so controversial. One on one, things are more or less equal. Two on one, and the advantage lies with whoever has teamed up to bully the other guy. It's just a given, frankly. The decision to split up was retarded and contrived in my opinion.

Even if Obi-wan can't defeat Palpatine, he doesn't need to because he's not doing it by himself. He can serve as a distraction for Yoda to wtfpwn Palpatine. But even so, I don't buy this 'Palpatine is so much stronger' etc. The duel between him and Mace Windu was laughable.

You mean where he killed 2 Jedi Masters in like 3 seconds, like he would have done to Obi Wan?

Stofsk wrote:I don't really see why this is so controversial. One on one, things are more or less equal. Two on one, and the advantage lies with whoever has teamed up to bully the other guy. It's just a given, frankly. The decision to split up was retarded and contrived in my opinion.

Even if Obi-wan can't defeat Palpatine, he doesn't need to because he's not doing it by himself. He can serve as a distraction for Yoda to wtfpwn Palpatine. But even so, I don't buy this 'Palpatine is so much stronger' etc. The duel between him and Mace Windu was laughable.

How was it laughable?

And given your logic, Palpatine should already have been dead as he faced 4 on 1 and was soundly defeate... oh wait.

And please, I have beaten the fucking tar out of three people at once that were all trying their hardest to fight me. Numbers is not always the answer.

Havok wrote:

Stofsk wrote:I don't really see why this is so controversial. One on one, things are more or less equal. Two on one, and the advantage lies with whoever has teamed up to bully the other guy. It's just a given, frankly. The decision to split up was retarded and contrived in my opinion.

Even if Obi-wan can't defeat Palpatine, he doesn't need to because he's not doing it by himself. He can serve as a distraction for Yoda to wtfpwn Palpatine. But even so, I don't buy this 'Palpatine is so much stronger' etc. The duel between him and Mace Windu was laughable.

How was it laughable?

And given your logic, Palpatine should already have been dead as he faced 4 on 1 and was soundly defeate... oh wait.

And please, I have beaten the fucking tar out of three people at once that were all trying their hardest to fight me. Numbers is not always the answer.

No, but given trained combatants it often is. Three drunks in a bar is very different from three trained martial artists, especially ones trained together and accustomed to fighting in groups.

The Romulan Republic wrote:Kenobi might do better than some think. He is one of the best swordsmen in the Order,

So were the three Jedi that he killed in the chancellery office, yet he eliminated them rather easily. They were among the best swordsman within the Order, but from what we have seen, they are hardly skilled on a level comparable to the likes of Sidious, Mace and Yoda.

and he beat the Chosen One. He was also strong enough to hold his own vs. Anakin in a TK shoving match in the duel on Mustafar.

Given that he was Anakin's former master, I presume that he knew his fighting style inside out, and thus could hold him off before being slaughtered like some of the other Jedi during "Op. Nightfall." And that should apply not only to the various forms of lightsaber combat but also to Anakin's characteristic way of using the Force. As such, he was likely one of best suited to kill Anakin. Also, Obi-Wan unlike Anakin had maximized his chances of surviving by using his experience against Anakin's misdirected rage. Had he stayed in one spot, he would have fallen much sooner. He knew that, which is why he survived Anakin's fury by giving up as much ground as he could while waiting for Anakin to exhaust himself and make a foolish mistake (and it worked to his credit).

I'm not convinced he'd be as useless as everyone seems to think.

I can't imagine Obi-Wan standing for any decent amount of time with a lightsaber against Sidious. And even had he survived such a fight, the odds of him surviving Sidious's Lighting and TK attacks are slim....

Havok wrote:

Stofsk wrote:I don't really see why this is so controversial. One on one, things are more or less equal. Two on one, and the advantage lies with whoever has teamed up to bully the other guy. It's just a given, frankly. The decision to split up was retarded and contrived in my opinion.

Even if Obi-wan can't defeat Palpatine, he doesn't need to because he's not doing it by himself. He can serve as a distraction for Yoda to wtfpwn Palpatine. But even so, I don't buy this 'Palpatine is so much stronger' etc. The duel between him and Mace Windu was laughable.

How was it laughable?

And given your logic, Palpatine should already have been dead as he faced 4 on 1 and was soundly defeate... oh wait.

Well, he was soundly defeated... until Anakin showed up and gave Palpatine the odds.

Havok wrote:

Stofsk wrote:I don't really see why this is so controversial. One on one, things are more or less equal. Two on one, and the advantage lies with whoever has teamed up to bully the other guy. It's just a given, frankly. The decision to split up was retarded and contrived in my opinion.

Even if Obi-wan can't defeat Palpatine, he doesn't need to because he's not doing it by himself. He can serve as a distraction for Yoda to wtfpwn Palpatine. But even so, I don't buy this 'Palpatine is so much stronger' etc. The duel between him and Mace Windu was laughable.

How was it laughable?

Everything about it just felt silly. Like the way Palpatine launched himself from his desk at the Jedi like some kind of spinning torpedo. Then how he stabbed two of the Jedi while moving so slowly it's a wonder they didn't guard against it. Or how he's fighting Mace and the latter leaves himself wide open for stab to the chest and for some reason Palpatine doesn't take advantage of it. Which doesn't matter because Mace proceeds to kick his ass anyway until Anakin shows up.

And given your logic, Palpatine should already have been dead as he faced 4 on 1 and was soundly defeate... oh wait.

Yeah well here's the thing, if the best Mace could have scrounged up were the Jedi equivalent of hobos at the bus shelter who probably never held a lightsabre before in their lives, 4 to 1 odds don't mean squat, I agree.

But people tell me those guys were Jedi Masters.

And please, I have beaten the fucking tar out of three people at once that were all trying their hardest to fight me. Numbers is not always the answer.

Oh come on. I knew a guy who was set upon by thugs at a bar. He needed hospitalisation afterwards. We both have anecdotes. While yes I was oversimplifying it by claiming that 2 vs 1 has a numbers advantage for the two guys versus the one, I think the claims that Obi-wan wouldn't last long against Palpatine because a bunch of nameless noobs were cut to pieces earlier in the movie doesn't strike me as convincing. Obi-wan's a bit more than just your average Jedi hobo.

keen320 wrote:

Havok wrote:

Stofsk wrote:I don't really see why this is so controversial. One on one, things are more or less equal. Two on one, and the advantage lies with whoever has teamed up to bully the other guy. It's just a given, frankly. The decision to split up was retarded and contrived in my opinion.

Even if Obi-wan can't defeat Palpatine, he doesn't need to because he's not doing it by himself. He can serve as a distraction for Yoda to wtfpwn Palpatine. But even so, I don't buy this 'Palpatine is so much stronger' etc. The duel between him and Mace Windu was laughable.

How was it laughable?

And given your logic, Palpatine should already have been dead as he faced 4 on 1 and was soundly defeate... oh wait.

Well, he was soundly defeated... until Anakin showed up and gave Palpatine the odds.

Err... No. While it was 4 vs 1. Palpatine owned hard. When it was 1 on 1 with Mace he may have been beaten. Though arguably he may have thrown it. There's little direct evidence but it was very convenient when it comes to forcing Anakin to make a choice.

In fact. There seems to be an inverse jedi law going on. The first two jedi masters die like punks. The third Fisto manages some blocks and then when they're one on one, its a more or less fair fight between Palps and Windu.

I checked the novel and it too provides little in the way of explanation for the split. Though it does make much of the symbolism of the two remaining jedi and the two sith. It also has Obi-wan express the opinion than even together the two of them wouldn't be able to take Sidious.

David Morgan-Marr wrote:At this point in the movie, Yoda and Obi-Wan have figured out that Palpatine and Anakin need to be stopped. Palpatine is on the same planet as they are, and Anakin has gone off somewhere and needs to be tracked down. Yoda and Obi-Wan both know that alone they may not be strong enough to take on either one of Palpatine or Anakin.

I didn't get that impression at all. Yoda was quite confident when he entered Palpatine's office. Even after taking a shot of lightning (which he was unprepared for, seemingly having underestimated the Sith Lord), he was talking smack. Palpatine seemed to doubt his ability to beat Yoda as well, given how he tried to run.

They could go tackle Palpatine together and then together go find out where Anakin has gone and chase him down. So what do they do?

They split up.

Would sticking together to tackle Palpatine have been a good idea or would it have ended up having both of them getting their asses kicked? They could get to Mustafar after if they go through the security tapes after defeating Palpatine, if those also record sound, and Padme might not have gotten choked by Anakin.[/quote]

That assumes that Anakin would just stay in one spot, which doesn't make sense. They had no idea he was on Mustafar at the time that they made the decision to split up.

It depends on whether security cameras recorded, and if it has sound, when Palpatine told Anakin to go to Mustafar after killing the Jedi at the temple. Then again, he may have left Mustafar by the time they arrive, assuming they even beat Palpatine.

Everything about it just felt silly. Like the way Palpatine launched himself from his desk at the Jedi like some kind of spinning torpedo. Then how he stabbed two of the Jedi while moving so slowly it's a wonder they didn't guard against it. Or how he's fighting Mace and the latter leaves himself wide open for stab to the chest and for some reason Palpatine doesn't take advantage of it. Which doesn't matter because Mace proceeds to kick his ass anyway until Anakin shows up.

Yeah. The fight choreography of Palpatine was terrible in the movie. At leas the novel explains two of the deaths as a sort of trick move. In the movie Palpatine just waves the lightsaber around and Jedi Masters fall at his feet.

Rogue 9 wrote:

Havok wrote:

Stofsk wrote:I don't really see why this is so controversial. One on one, things are more or less equal. Two on one, and the advantage lies with whoever has teamed up to bully the other guy. It's just a given, frankly. The decision to split up was retarded and contrived in my opinion.

Even if Obi-wan can't defeat Palpatine, he doesn't need to because he's not doing it by himself. He can serve as a distraction for Yoda to wtfpwn Palpatine. But even so, I don't buy this 'Palpatine is so much stronger' etc. The duel between him and Mace Windu was laughable.

How was it laughable?

And given your logic, Palpatine should already have been dead as he faced 4 on 1 and was soundly defeate... oh wait.

And please, I have beaten the fucking tar out of three people at once that were all trying their hardest to fight me. Numbers is not always the answer.

No, but given trained combatants it often is. Three drunks in a bar is very different from three trained martial artists, especially ones trained together and accustomed to fighting in groups.

Nice assumption, but incorrect. And come the fuck on, but how often in real life do "trained martial artists" fight in groups. You guys watch way to many fucking movies.

I will give that the actual choreographing of the scene was bad, as it showed Palpatine moving far to slow, but what it showed was that the person that strikes first usually gets the upper hand. That and the Jedi were not truly prepared to fight a Sith, something Yoda pointed out, and as we saw from all the movies, doesn't usually work out well for Jedi. Only Mace seemed truly prepared for what was coming.

I also attribute some of the ass kicking to the confines of the doorway the Jedi left themselves in. They had pretty much zero room to maneuver or react without slicing each other up, which I feel is backed up by the scene itself as each Jedi gets killed, the surviving Jedi are able to defend themselves a little more, but that is just how I reconcile the scene.

Havok wrote:

Rogue 9 wrote:No, but given trained combatants it often is. Three drunks in a bar is very different from three trained martial artists, especially ones trained together and accustomed to fighting in groups.

Nice assumption, but incorrect. And come the fuck on, but how often in real life do "trained martial artists" fight in groups. You guys watch way to many fucking movies.

I know a few thousand. SCA combat is of course heavily nerfed to avoid actually killing each other, but the principles of working together in combat against lesser (or greater) numbers remain exactly the same, and there is huge crossover between that and the study of Western martial arts. 2v1, 3v1, and 3v2 (and occasionally 4v2) drills are something I have personally spent hours and hours on (both as part of the team and defending as a single combatant), and I fully expect you to scoff at the idea, but the main skills of maintaining local superiority are all in footwork and maneuver focused on preventing the one from getting out of reach of any members of the group, and can easily be transferred to other forms of martial arts. It is entirely possible for a single combatant to defeat multiple opponents, but when it happens it is almost always the result of a mistake by the numerically superior side being taken advantage of to isolate members of the team; very few people, given two arms to work with, are able to repel attacks from four or six arms (and other limbs as the martial art in question allows) simultaneously.

Which is peripheral to the point; the current popularity or lack thereof of team martial arts has little to do with the fact that given the existence of a martial tradition that emphasizes combat in pairs (as the Jedi Order's does), that martial tradition would train people to fight effectively in pairs in a way that random people off the street could not.