Questions about 1st-movie-only canon and ep4+5-only canon

[iquestion]

First of all I want to say that I came here because I heard this was where the hardest core of SW fans hang out.

I came to learn more about the way of thinking, where only the 1st movie (or the 1st 2 movies) are treated as canon. I find it very attractive...just 1 movie's worth of info, freeing me from having to bother thinking about the rest, letting me just pick-and-choose the awesome parts. Not having to think about what the hell lightsabers are made of, crap like plasma and force fields and chants and 9 styles, just a simple laser sword made out of light. Darth is a first name, not a title, and he had a red lightsaber because it's not blue like the Jedi's.

I've heard that some fans are hardcore enough to refer the 1st film strictly as "the star wars". I think.

Questions:

- Is there a community name for this philosophy? like 'minimalist star wars'?
- are there 'landmark threads' where this is discussed?
- what's so special about ESB that there's an alternate ep4-5-only-canon thinking?

and of course

- please tell me more. Anything and everything you can about this.

[Stofsk]

First of all I want to say that I came here because I heard this was where the hardest core of SW fans hang out.

I came to learn more about the way of thinking, where only the 1st movie (or the 1st 2 movies) are treated as canon. I find it very attractive...just 1 movie's worth of info, freeing me from having to bother thinking about the rest, letting me just pick-and-choose the awesome parts. Not having to think about what the hell lightsabers are made of, crap like plasma and force fields and chants and 9 styles, just a simple laser sword made out of light. Darth is a first name, not a title, and he had a red lightsaber because it's not blue like the Jedi's.

I've heard that some fans are hardcore enough to refer the 1st film strictly as "the star wars". I think.

Questions:

- Is there a community name for this philosophy? like 'minimalist star wars'?

OT purist comes to mind. But that can include RotJ as well.

- are there 'landmark threads' where this is discussed?
- what's so special about ESB that there's an alternate ep4-5-only-canon thinking?

Don't know about landmark threads, but ESB is one of the best films in the entire saga, whether you're an OT purist or not.

- please tell me more. Anything and everything you can about this.

Galvatron is a good guy to talk to about this. Drop him a PM if you want to discuss it some more.

[The Romulan Republic]

First of all I want to say that I came here because I heard this was where the hardest core of SW fans hang out.

Oh, I wouldn't say we're the most hard core fans persay. We are one of the groups most likely to apply careful analysis to how the Star Wars universe works, however, particularly weapons and technology.

I came to learn more about the way of thinking, where only the 1st movie (or the 1st 2 movies) are treated as canon. I find it very attractive...just 1 movie's worth of info, freeing me from having to bother thinking about the rest, letting me just pick-and-choose the awesome parts. Not having to think about what the hell lightsabers are made of, crap like plasma and force fields and chants and 9 styles, just a simple laser sword made out of light. Darth is a first name, not a title, and he had a red lightsaber because it's not blue like the Jedi's.

While there are no doubt others who share your view, I would hesitate to use that approach in a debate. Cherry-picking evidence is frowned on here, to say the least. In such circumstances, we usually follow official canon policy.

I've heard that some fans are hardcore enough to refer the 1st film strictly as "the star wars". I think.

I wouldn't call that being "hard core". I'd call that being hyper picky and ignoring canon, myself. But others no doubt disagree.

Questions:

- Is there a community name for this philosophy? like 'minimalist star wars'?

Echoing Stofsk, "Purist" would probably be better than "minimalist". Around here, at least, "minimalist" tends to be used to refer to people who downplay the scale in-universe- ie having major battles with only a few ships, and the whole 3 million Clone Troopers debacle.

- are there 'landmark threads' where this is discussed?

None I can recall, actually.

- what's so special about ESB that there's an alternate ep4-5-only-canon thinking?

Like Stofsk said, its a good film.

[Havok]

First of all I want to say that I came here because I heard this was where the hardest core of SW fans hang out.

Like The Romulan Republic says, we aren't the most hardcore, but we are going to analyze the living fucking shit out of it. Whether the outcome is good or bad.

I came to learn more about the way of thinking, where only the 1st movie (or the 1st 2 movies) are treated as canon.

I can't say that I have ever heard of this myself, but I can see how the most butt hurt of us could choose to discard everything but A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back.

I find it very attractive...just 1 movie's worth of info, freeing me from having to bother thinking about the rest, letting me just pick-and-choose the awesome parts. Not having to think about what the hell lightsabers are made of, crap like plasma and force fields and chants and 9 styles, just a simple laser sword made out of light. Darth is a first name, not a title, and he had a red lightsaber because it's not blue like the Jedi's.

Ah... I see. You want the magic and mystery back and most importantly, the possibilities. I can definitely feel that.

I've heard that some fans are hardcore enough to refer the 1st film strictly as "the star wars". I think.

Again, not something I have heard of.

Questions:

- Is there a community name for this philosophy? like 'minimalist star wars'?

Not here. I'm sure we could come up with something colorful for them though.

- are there 'landmark threads' where this is discussed?

Again, not that I know of, but we can make one.

- what's so special about ESB that there's an alternate ep4-5-only-canon thinking?

It's like I said. There was still magic and mystery back then. The Emperor was an ominous hologram. No ewoks. Vader was still Vader and not a withered guy in a suit. Yoda was still alive. There was still "another" and it wasn't Leia. There was still all this possibility left and George Lucas hadn't let anyone down yet.

- please tell me more. Anything and everything you can about this.

There is lots of good discussion in this forum. It depends on how nerdy you want to get.
I myself am a movie plus purist, meaning I will tolerate the novels of the movies, novels that were written to go with the movies or in between them. I ignore pretty much everything after ROTJ as it's foundation is crap based on an incomplete story, so none of it stands up to much scrutiny.
There are those more purist then I am though.

Most people here are middle ground though and accept the EU with all it's glaring faults, at least until Lucas Licensing decides to scrap it and start over. They will one day.

Then there is Publius. He takes every nook and cranny from everywhere and weaves it into a believable, non crap tapestry of Star Wars. He doesn't post much anymore, but all his threads are still here and highly valued by pretty much everyone.

[Tiriol]

I came to learn more about the way of thinking, where only the 1st movie (or the 1st 2 movies) are treated as canon.

I can't say that I have ever heard of this myself, but I can see how the most butt hurt of us could choose to discard everything but A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back.

I don't remember his name since I wasn't affiliated with him in any shape or form, but there was one particular kendo practioner who considered RotJ to be such an utter pile of crap (and regarded PT as even worse) that he only accepted the first two published movies as canon. He has left Star Wars fandom a long time ago, I think.

[Eleas]

I came to learn more about the way of thinking, where only the 1st movie (or the 1st 2 movies) are treated as canon.

I can't say that I have ever heard of this myself, but I can see how the most butt hurt of us could choose to discard everything but A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back.

I don't remember his name since I wasn't affiliated with him in any shape or form, but there was one particular kendo practioner who considered RotJ to be such an utter pile of crap (and regarded PT as even worse) that he only accepted the first two published movies as canon. He has left Star Wars fandom a long time ago, I think.

You're thinking of Brian Young.

[RogueIce]

I don't remember his name since I wasn't affiliated with him in any shape or form, but there was one particular kendo practioner who considered RotJ to be such an utter pile of crap (and regarded PT as even worse) that he only accepted the first two published movies as canon. He has left Star Wars fandom a long time ago, I think.

You're thinking of Brian Young.

Actually, I believe he's talking about Robert Brown. Who seemed to have a meltdown of sorts over Episode II.

Brian Young is the Turbolaser Commentaries guy. He seems to have left the fandom, although TBH I've never heard his views on canon and such.

[Eleas]

I don't remember his name since I wasn't affiliated with him in any shape or form, but there was one particular kendo practioner who considered RotJ to be such an utter pile of crap (and regarded PT as even worse) that he only accepted the first two published movies as canon. He has left Star Wars fandom a long time ago, I think.

You're thinking of Brian Young.

Actually, I believe he's talking about Robert Brown. Who seemed to have a meltdown of sorts over Episode II.

Brian Young is the Turbolaser Commentaries guy. He seems to have left the fandom, although TBH I've never heard his views on canon and such.

Fuck, that's embarrassing. Yeah, I meant to say Robert Brown. IIRC he was supposedly (or claimed to be) among the Episode II arena crew, but claims his scenes were cut out in favor of the massively inept extras we saw. I can believe that happened, and I can believe that it was an abysmal choice. Hard to say, really. It would explain his being pissed off.

[Knife]

I've seen Young post on Wong's FB, so he's still 'around; though not on any BBS I know of.

[iquestion]

Thanks for all the pointers...I do remember reading Bob Brown's site after Ep1 came out (but before Ep2). I'm glad I found a name for this thing ('OT purist'). Amazingly I had no idea Bob Brown was one of the purists at the time, I just thought his way of analysis was methodical.

From here on I guess I'll have to diplomatically start new threads to discuss OT purist thoughts, since the most popular analysis styles that I've read here incorporates EU material. For example, I do remember that when I 1st watched ep6, my thoughts include 'who are all these things and why are they clogging up the screen' during the Jabba scenes and the emperor's posse (among other things).

[Connor MacLeod]

Brian doesn't post on forums much, but he's around and he's still got some ideas kicking about.. he's just not into SW or B5 anymore per se.

I wasn't aware Mike was posting on facebook. UGH everyone gets caught up in its insidious claws!

And yes, Rob Brown was the kendo guy who was in episode 2. As far as I know this is true.

[dworkin]

To quote the discordians, "Everything is true, even the untrue bits."

Star Wars is a mythology, like King Arthur. Unlike Arthur however the original artist for Star Wars is alive, kicking and wants to be paid for his efforts. Fair enough. But to declare all parts true (for given values of true) is a bit wacky. After the silliness of wankatine, world devastators, bunny jedi, Anakin's (for want of a better word) actors and lizards inserted everywhere in the new releases it's tempting to chuck it all and declare it's all about the holy trilogy (or duology, whatever).

And to never mention the Christmas Special

However, on the other hand you may want the extra detail. Want a story about how Luke made a new lightsabre between Empire and Jedi? Well, there's going to be details about how to make one. A tale about Obi-Wan's training? You may have to accept that an order of mystic knights will have a set of different fighting styles and there's all sorts of rock/paper/scissors stuff about how the styles work. Sort of like the running commentary between Inigo and Wesley during the duel in The Princess Bride, but more internalised. And since you can see a person's thoughts in a written narrative, well there you are.

The trouble is that you don't want it all to be true because that's a mess a Jesuit wouldn't touch. The best approach is to deal with each story individually. They're additional legends surrounding a core of common knowlege and most can be enjoyed on thier own. Even Dark Empire, it's a comic with some impressive art, the words are just there to string the pretty pictures together. Like porn. Or the not so serious tale about a droid who takes over the DSII intent on a droid uprising and it's only unfortunate that this happens seconds before it goes boom. A funny tale, a very silly one. But that's it.

[Batman]

I'm not sure I understand the dilemma. As far as I see it, this is a binary solution set.
1)You accept the official canon policy.
2)You don't.
If 2), frankly, what's there to talk about? Everything outside the OT (ANH and ESB, if we go by your buddy) is not canon. The OT wasn't exactly all that hot on in universe details you know.

[Knife]

I have sympathies for the OT purists, even though I'm not one. I mean if you're going to argue SW you should use all the lore, that said, I have a personal 'cannon' that when I think about SW I think about only those bits and pieces I like. There are just some bits of the EU that is so fucked up that hasn't been championed by fans/authors to fix. I'd be happier to be a 'include all EU' type person if we could fix way older problems than a 3 million man GAR; like the poor Mon Cal ships in the EU. All 1.2km ships are cruisers, all are constructed differently. Blah.

I have a lot of sympathies for OT purists when it comes to themes and symbols in SW as well. The very old example of Dark Empire totally fucking up the sacrifice and redemption of Vader at the end of RotJ is a sore spot with me. The trend in a lot of the books of the Force being D&D mana and not a black/white good/evil aspect to it. And to be frank, with so much EU that often contradicts, it's hard to shoe horn it all into on consistent mythology.

[Batman]

Trust me, If I had my druthers the EU would be a lot smaller and look quite different
What I was trying to say was that once you've decided to not go by the canon policy, one can do exactly as you said: decide your own personal canon policy, including and excluding as you see fit. Whether that be only the OT, only the PT (though I doubt the sanity of the person who goes by that), only the Thrawn trilogy, OT plus Thrawn trilogy, whatever. Once you've decided to toss at all, you may as well toss as selectively as you like.

[Stofsk]

(seriously though, I read that hesitated to shoot Luke idea years ago on the internet and I loved it. Yes, ESB makes us think he didn't know he was luke's father until the emperor tells him there, but fuck that noise. ESB is non-canon)

I never got that impression from ESB. I think it was pretty clear from the opening crawl that Vader already knew, because he had become 'obsessed' with finding Luke to the exclusion of any other priority.

Bear in mind that the special edition changed the dialogue in a significant fashion, to the point where your interpretation may have validity. For me, it's the theatrical edition or nothing.

i guess this makes me a super-OT purist oh noes

[Batman]

I'm sorry, at which point does Palpatine tell Vader he is Luke's father? Because as I recall it, Special Edition or original, the issue doesn't come up until Anakin senior says 'I am your father.'

[Stofsk]

The part where Papa Palpatine goes 'lol i found out today the young rebel who blew up the death star is the offspring of one Anakin Skywalker'

and then like Vader goes HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE, and then Palps was like lol noob search your feelings you will know it to be true ok so stfu

If you take the lines literally it's even hilarious. Maybe someone should have told Vader when he was a wee lad about the birds and the bees.

HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE well you fucked Natalie Portman and nine months later whaddayaknow.

[Batman]

I'll take it as an 'that never actually happened', then.

[dworkin]

Surely canon is useful for recognising a product as Star Wars.

Exhibit A: Eragon. If ever there was a product that screamed 'inspired by Star Wars' it is this steaming turd. However since it's set in a fantasy setting and is only using the same themes as Star Wars (the exact same themes mind) it's not recognisably Star Wars in the eyes of most.

Exhibit B: In a fit of creative madness I write and publish a story in which Luke is a sassy black chick, Vader's a pimp cruising in his 'Funk-Star', Palpatine cranks out phat beats from his crib on Corruscant and C3PO is Cassanova on speed. Is this truly Star Wars? One would have to say no.

[Batman]

I completely fail to see how any of this is relevant. I'm either going with official canon, in which case this would be thrown out on account of not being, you know, Star Wars, or I'm not, in which case it's pick and chose as you like. Once you drop canon it comes down to what you think is Star Wars, and even around here that's not exactly something that's written in stone.

[Havok]

He says "Offspring of Anakin Skywalker" (that is the updated version) to which Vader responds, "How is that possible?"
It is in the Emperor hologram scene.

The original runs...
"What is thy bidding, my master."
"There is a great disturbance in the Force."
"I have felt it."
"We have a knew enemy, Luke Skywalker."
"Yes my master."
"He could destroy us."
"He is just a boy. Obi-Wan can no longer help."
"The Force is strong with him. The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi."
"If he could be turned, he would become a powerful ally."
"Yes. Yesss. He would be a great asset. Can it be done?"
"He will join us or die, master."

The new version...
"What is thy bidding, my master."
"There is a great disturbance in the Force."
"I have felt it."
"We have a knew enemy. The young rebel who destroyed the Death Star. I have no doubt that this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker."
"How is that possible?"
"Search your feelings Lord Vader. You will know it to be true. He could destroy us."
"He is just a boy. Obi-Wan can no longer help."
"The Force is strong with him. The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi."
"If he could be turned, he would become a powerful ally."
"Yes. Yesss. He would be a great asset. Can it be done?"
"He will join us or die, master."

In the original, it is clear that Vader is hunting for his son and he knows it, even though, the Emperor just found out.
In the new version, it is clear, it seems like he may have just been hunting the people that blew up the Death Star and the rebels in general, and Palpatine sets him on the path towards Luke.

[Tiriol]

I actually got the implication that both Sith Lords were toying with each other in that scene. Listen to their tones: both are monotone, almost emotionless. Vader particularly stands out. It's like two liars who both know that they are lying to each other but doing it anyway.

The fact that the Emperor decided to speak about offspring of Skywalker to Vader could show that Vader had no idea about Luke's actual identity (pretty doubtful, though, considering that the opening crawl still states that "the evil Lord Darth Vader, obsessed with young Skywalker", which means that he's the biggest idiot in the galaxy if he had no suspicions about the similar surname); Palpatine genuinely wanted to inform his apprentice about this newest development since he also genuinely believed that Vader didn't know about it (Palpatine is no idiot, either, though, and used to treachery, so this seems unlikely); or that Palpatine wanted to make a veiled reminder to Vader who is still in charge and who still knows what goes on in the galaxy.

Personally I support the third option.

[Lord Insanity]

Keep in mind in both the original and updated ESB, Vader (upon seeing the Hoth base image from the probe droid) states: "That's it, the Rebels are there and I'm sure Skywalker is with them." This was before his conversation with the Emperor. Its obvious the implication is he knew who Luke was before the conversation with Palpatine and was simply "playing dumb" during it.

[Darth Tedious]

Regardless of all that, it isn't until RotJ that Obi-Wan explains that Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker are the same person.

If you only take episodes 4 and 5 as canon, it remains entirely possible that Vader was just fucking with Luke's head at Bespin. Personally, I love the idea that it was all a big psyche-out.

Edit: Or, even better, Vader was Luke's father, but is still a seperate person to Anakin, giving him the "Haha, I did your mom!!!1!" factor! Ultimate psyche-out!