Daily TF.net Wanking

[Illuminatus Primus]

http:// boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=10919351

Remove space and enjoy.

And you ignore the basic unit of space combat in the GFFA.

The starfighter.

The advantage the X-wing has over the Tie is miniscule compared to what a skip would have over a Tie.

And worse the skips something close to a parity of numbers.

The Workhorse of the Empire, the Star Destroyer, is completely outclassed by the Vong. The Empire would literally have to throw everythign and the kitchen sink in the way of the onrushing vong hordes to try and slow them, stopping them would be completely out of the question.

Unless and until the Empire resorted to superweapons.

At that point The Empire proabbly come sout on top simply because The vong can't destroy the Empire fast enough before the Empire can destroy the Vong. The galaxy would be wrecked with probably thousands of systems quarentined to try and restrain the remnants of Vong Bio weapons, but yes the Empire at it's height would win.

Phyrric though wouldn't begin to cover it.

[Stormbringer]

What a dumbass. At best the X-Wing can damage heavy capships. The skip is far inferior to the TIE and especially the X-wing.

Even in Stackpoles novels X-wings never destroy an ISD on their own.

[Illuminatus Primus]

He seems to think GFFA combat is supposed to be like modern carrier tactics and believes that the NJO is seperated from the OT by a 20-year RL style tech rollover. He's an idiot.

[Vympel]

NJO- haven't read it. He's still a dumbass though- probably related to fanboy retardicus, who thinks that the Hapan Battle Dragon is a good ship.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Join the Jihaaad Vympel.

I'm writing a rebuttal as we speak.

[Ender]

Has he noticed that, post Vector Prime, a SD beat the crap out of a Vong ship of equal strength all the time? Point out how the Lusankya tore through an entire fleet by herself, how a fleet of Vong reserves and one ot theri best commanders were mauled by 3 republic class SDs and finished off by a fe far far far inferior Hapan battle Dragons. How about in Remnant when the Defiant mand mincemeat out of the Vong ships?

No, fighters packing cap killers can do alot. But Capital ships still reign supreme, and for equal class on equal footing, the Star Destroyers beat down the Vong.

[Ender]

What a dumbass. At best the X-Wing can damage heavy capships. The skip is far inferior to the TIE and especially the X-wing.

Even in Stackpoles novels X-wings never destroy an ISD on their own.

In firepower yes. In defenses, possibly. In terms of speed and agility, no. The Coralskipper is the fastest, most agile fighter in space because of its drive.

[Cal Wright]

The skip isn't that much better. There's no way it's more manuverable. Even if there's a mention or a description that they out class the other fighters, the actions prove otherwise. Even during the procog fighting unit, the Republic pilots constantly manage to tackle and out pace the skips. Only through sheer numerical advantage and the combined efforts of the yammosk do the Vong stay ahead until the end of the battle, when some shit faced scheme drops, which most of the time is the yammosk ship dying or fleeing. However, Even in the craptacular writings of Destiny's Way a Republic Fleet manages to slip in and kick the living crap out of a Vong fleet. In Remnant the Imperials manage to beat back an invading Vong force, AFTER taking heavy losses. I've said it before, the NJO sucks, but is starting to make a heel turn in some books. However, the ill contrived Yuzhan Vong were given bio tech that somehow 'outclasses' the Star Wars universe, SOLEY on the premise that the inhabitants don't understand this new 'threat'. Which is an overly astounding amount of, 'rikes shaggy.' 'Like Zoinks Scoop, we're knee deep in a case of...'

BULL-FUCKING-SHIT

The lesser bio tech manages to beat out the more powerful units of the Star Wars universe because the SW side doesn't understand or hasn't encountered thier kind of tech. Yet the Vong can easily confront and beat the SW side, even though for all we know they haven't encountered thier tech either. Except for the spies like Nom Anor that have infiltrated the universe. It's really just fucked up because the EU officials got thier hands tied a bit and couldn't figure out which way to go through the wet paper bag. Nonetheless, with all the evidence that has been presented in the NJO thus far, ignorance coupled with arrogance has allowed the the Vong to progress as far as they have, and it's been shown quite blatantly that the SW universe can defeat the Vong without much of a sweat.

[Raptor 597]

Everyone, joi
n our battle front.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Its sad really, that people can call X-Wings cap ship killers. I happened to have found my EGTC the other day, coffee stained and all. It says the Lusankya was disabled by a measly fucking 80 proton torpedoes. Eighty. WTF happened to Endor, where dozens of capships were pounding on her shields, delivering teratons of energy a second? Unless you'd like to consider 80 protorps the equivilent to a half an hour of bombardment by heavy turbolasers.

More on topic, official literature > this idiot. Just plop some quotes on his lap, and he'll be forced to concede (or more likely run away).

[Kuja]

Its sad really, that people can call X-Wings cap ship killers. I happened to have found my EGTC the other day, coffee stained and all. It says the Lusankya was disabled by a measly fucking 80 proton torpedoes. Eighty. WTF happened to Endor, where dozens of capships were pounding on her shields, delivering teratons of energy a second? Unless you'd like to consider 80 protorps the equivilent to a half an hour of bombardment by heavy turbolasers.

It wasn't 80, it was over a hundred, plus salvos from an ISD and a smaller cruiser. And even all that made the Lusy lose only 35% of its combat capability.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Keep in mind those were heavy torps intended for quite heavy fixed emplacements on a space station.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

It wasn't 80, it was over a hundred, plus salvos from an ISD and a smaller cruiser. And even all that made the Lusy lose only 35% of its combat capability.

'fraid you're goign to have to provide quotes then, because my EGTC clearly states:

"At the bacta planet, the Rouges and teh Lusankya both emerged from hyperspace and fell upon one another with a vengeance. More than eighty proton torpedoes impacted against the Super Star Destroyer, collapsing its shields and ripping its guts open."

Ok "more than" 80 torps did her in, but lets not get excessive and start saying over a hundred. It doesn't mention any capships firing on her. Another quote, more to the point on Stackpole's wanking:

"the station suddenly locked on to the Super Star Destroyer with over three hundred torpedoes. Knowing full well no vessels shields could sustain such a volley..."

How are 300, or even 400 torpedoes supposed to equal getting pounded on by capships turbolasers for a half an hour? Using Jango's torp from AOTC for the calc, the entire volley would have equaled 60GT. One medium TL does more damage than that.

[Captain tycho]

It wasn't 80, it was over a hundred, plus salvos from an ISD and a smaller cruiser. And even all that made the Lusy lose only 35% of its combat capability.

'fraid you're goign to have to provide quotes then, because my EGTC clearly states:

"At the bacta planet, the Rouges and teh Lusankya both emerged from hyperspace and fell upon one another with a vengeance. More than eighty proton torpedoes impacted against the Super Star Destroyer, collapsing its shields and ripping its guts open."

Ok "more than" 80 torps did her in, but lets not get excessive and start saying over a hundred. It doesn't mention any capships firing on her. Another quote, more to the point on Stackpole's wanking:

"the station suddenly locked on to the Super Star Destroyer with over three hundred torpedoes. Knowing full well no vessels shields could sustain such a volley..."

How are 300, or even 400 torpedoes supposed to equal getting pounded on by capships turbolasers for a half an hour? Using Jango's torp from AOTC for the calc, the entire volley would have equaled 60GT. One medium TL does more damage than that.

Stackpole's books are really screwy this way.
The ICS clearly proves otherwise.

[Illuminatus Primus]

How are 300, or even 400 torpedoes supposed to equal getting pounded on by capships turbolasers for a half an hour? Using Jango's torp from AOTC for the calc, the entire volley would have equaled 60GT. One medium TL does more damage than that.

That one burst collapsed the bow shield.

Jango's missile was a highly manuverable and fast anti-fighter small missile.

These are long-range heavy fixed-position torpedo tubes for mounting on space stations.

Keep in mind the Lusankya was modified and stripped down so it could provide power for a repulsorlift bed and as a facility for the prisons and as a stash for Palpatine's treasures. After all, it was his gettaway vehicle. It was not a standard Executor-class.

[Stormbringer]

What a dumbass. At best the X-Wing can damage heavy capships. The skip is far inferior to the TIE and especially the X-wing.

Even in Stackpoles novels X-wings never destroy an ISD on their own.

In firepower yes. In defenses, possibly. In terms of speed and agility, no. The Coralskipper is the fastest, most agile fighter in space because of its drive.

They might be manuverable but it doesn't seem to save them. They're like the zero, tough to hit but a few shot are all it takes to kill it. Once you strip away their fancy tricks the skips are a pretty pathetic fighter compared the X-Wing or TIE.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

That one burst collapsed the bow shield.

Jango's missile was a highly manuverable and fast anti-fighter small missile.

These are long-range heavy fixed-position torpedo tubes for mounting on space stations.

Keep in mind the Lusankya was modified and stripped down so it could provide power for a repulsorlift bed and as a facility for the prisons and as a stash for Palpatine's treasures. After all, it was his gettaway vehicle. It was not a standard Executor-class.

Fair enough, there seems to be some reasoning here. Yet, seems so ludicrous that roughly eighty torps would be enough to break even part of a shield on a downgraded SSD (how much weaker could it have been?). Still, in light of the new evidence, I will-grudgingly-except that maybe it wasn't so bad.

[Stormbringer]

How are 300, or even 400 torpedoes supposed to equal getting pounded on by capships turbolasers for a half an hour? Using Jango's torp from AOTC for the calc, the entire volley would have equaled 60GT. One medium TL does more damage than that.

It depends on the missle. Those are clearly capship scale missles rather than the smaller ones that starfighters fire. Those missles are mounted on frieghters and such, I'd wager they were a lot heavier than Jango's missles.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I'd wager they were larger than the Acclamator's heavy torpedoes.

We're talking things meant to be mounted in fixed heavy tubes on space stations.

And there are some big freighters out there.

They used the X-Wing's targetting locks, so all of those eighty ubertorpedoes were concentrated into 12 impact points max. Piled-up all-at-once firepower is the exact antithesis of SW shields.

Besides, the fact that some Mon Cals were pounding for an hour means nothing. SW shields work on a threshold dependent on watts. As such, a couple of ships could pound away on the shield of a SW craft and if their concentrated fire didn't reach the threshold, it would hold until the ship's fuel ran dry.

What really ripped the shields was Ackbar at the end ordering Home One and her escorts to concentrate everything on the Executor, and probably bombard it with those fireships.

It is the piled-up firepower in a short span of time that matters. The "hour of bombardment" is really meaningless.

[Ender]

The skip isn't that much better. There's no way it's more manuverable. Even if there's a mention or a description that they out class the other fighters, the actions prove otherwise.

Yes, the NR was on par with them. IN NEWER MODEL UPGRADED FIGHTERS.

It was specifically stated that they are faster and more manuverable. IN fact they ae still better, simply the newer X-wings can almost but not quite keep up.

Even during the procog fighting unit, the Republic pilots constantly manage to tackle and out pace the skips. Only through sheer numerical advantage and the combined efforts of the yammosk do the Vong stay ahead until the end of the battle, when some shit faced scheme drops, which most of the time is the yammosk ship dying or fleeing. However, Even in the craptacular writings of Destiny's Way a Republic Fleet manages to slip in and kick the living crap out of a Vong fleet. In Remnant the Imperials manage to beat back an invading Vong force, AFTER taking heavy losses. I've said it before, the NJO sucks, but is starting to make a heel turn in some books. However, the ill contrived Yuzhan Vong were given bio tech that somehow 'outclasses' the Star Wars universe, SOLEY on the premise that the inhabitants don't understand this new 'threat'. Which is an overly astounding amount of, 'rikes shaggy.' 'Like Zoinks Scoop, we're knee deep in a case of...'

BULL-FUCKING-SHIT

Tell you what, how about you make specific examples instead of glossing over everything simply because you don't care for the series, K?

The lesser bio tech manages to beat out the more powerful units of the Star Wars universe because the SW side doesn't understand or hasn't encountered thier kind of tech. Yet the Vong can easily confront and beat the SW side, even though for all we know they haven't encountered thier tech either. Except for the spies like Nom Anor that have infiltrated the universe.

Who have been feeding them information for 50 + years. That is more hen enough time to develop a counter measure

It's really just fucked up because the EU officials got thier hands tied a bit and couldn't figure out which way to go through the wet paper bag. Nonetheless, with all the evidence that has been presented in the NJO thus far, ignorance coupled with arrogance has allowed the the Vong to progress as far as they have, and it's been shown quite blatantly that the SW universe can defeat the Vong without much of a sweat.

Beat them? Yes. Without much of a sweat? Not at all.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Okay IP you win, you win, I concede! Maybe I'm just looking at it from a more romantic standpoint. Such a mighty, majestic ship be utterly crushed by what seems to be so few things. Versus the mighty struggle as enormous craft share broadsides in lenghty combat, hundreds of guns firing unfathomable amounts of energy, almost uslessly, into each other.

*wipes tear from eye*
Oh well, not everything is as romantic as I'd like it to be.

[Ender]

You know, I'm really getting tired of this "It's bio tech, there for it's crap" stuff comiing from Wong and everyone else. Whatever happened to "basing something on it's effects, not it's name"? What about "objective observation"? Guess that gets tossed out the airlock. Yes, it's biotech. But guess what? If it achieves comparable or superior results then hard metal tech, guess which one sucks, and which one is good?

Vorlons use bio tech, so their weapons should be weak and their hulls squishy!
Guess what, not the case.

Vong use biotech, so everything else should outpreform them!
Funny, their ships are just as good and in some cases superior.

Judge by what the stuff does. NOT by what it is made of.

[Stormbringer]

Judge by what the stuff does. NOT by what it is made of.

Mike and other have pointed out the utter stupidity of it. Yes, we do debate based on suspension of disbelief but that doesn't mean we have to think the idea's great. And making this wonder biotech in a decidely heavy metal universe like Star Wars is doubly stupid.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Okay IP you win, you win, I concede! Maybe I'm just looking at it from a more romantic standpoint. Such a mighty, majestic ship be utterly crushed by what seems to be so few things. Versus the mighty struggle as enormous craft share broadsides in lenghty combat, hundreds of guns firing unfathomable amounts of energy, almost uslessly, into each other.

*wipes tear from eye*
Oh well, not everything is as romantic as I'd like it to be.

Yeah, it amounts to a terrorist attack/ambush on a stripped-down commandship reduced to a gettaway craft doubling a prison staffed with incompetant crew and an idiot captain.

I feel for you.

[His Divine Shadow]

The Workhorse of the Empire, the Star Destroyer, is completely outclassed by the Vong. The Empire would literally have to throw everythign and the kitchen sink in the way of the onrushing vong hordes to try and slow them, stopping them would be completely out of the question.

What. A. Fucking. Moron.

Maybe he missed the Errant Venture who destroyed two 1.2km long Vong battleships with two simoultaneous broadsides?

ISD's are vastly superior, what a godamned fuck head.