Oops. Me in trouble

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MKSheppard
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Oops. Me in trouble

Post by MKSheppard »

Got this in my yahoo.com email a few days ago:
(Preface: I found this email address on the "Commence Operations"
website [
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rcrierie/index.htm ], home of "The
Vault". If you aren't the author of that section, then you have my
apologies and please pass this on to them if you know who they are.)

I was made aware of your website today; specifically the section titled
The
Vault [ http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rcrierie/ ... source.htm
]. This website contains absolutely HUGE amounts of copyright material
which is being distributed illegally and against both United States and
international copyright laws. While the books published by West End
Games
may no longer be in print, they are still protected under copyright
laws
just as much as they were when they were first released.

The existence of this much copyrighted material on a website is simply
an
open invitation for the copyright holders (both West End Games and
Lucasfilm, Ltd.) to take notice and start cracking down on SWRPG
websites. There is precedent for this type of behavior in the past
when
Lucasfilm started a large crackdown on Star Wars-related websites in
the
mid 1990s. None of us want this to happen again.

Therefore, I'd like to ask you to remove all of the material from your
website that you have posted in violation of copyright law. Action may
have to be taken with the website provider if nothing is done. Thanks
for
your time.

--
Chris Curtis
I'm very tempted to tell this guy to screw off,
as I've been looking for a copy of this book
for the last FIVE YEARS in used book stores,
and never found a copy of it until someone posted
an e-book on a newsgroup:

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Alyeska
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Post by Alyeska »

I say leave it up. If a company can't profit off your purchasing the book and they won't raise a finger to provide more copies then there is nothing wrong with what your doing.
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."

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Post by Stormbringer »

Alyeska wrote:I say leave it up. If a company can't profit off your purchasing the book and they won't raise a finger to provide more copies then there is nothing wrong with what your doing.
Morally maybe. But he can still get himself into a heap of legal trouble. A copyright violation is still a copyright violation unless he can make a case that it's some how a fair use exception.
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Post by Alyeska »

Stormbringer wrote:
Alyeska wrote:I say leave it up. If a company can't profit off your purchasing the book and they won't raise a finger to provide more copies then there is nothing wrong with what your doing.
Morally maybe. But he can still get himself into a heap of legal trouble. A copyright violation is still a copyright violation unless he can make a case that it's some how a fair use exception.
Shep is not profiting from this violation and it is not financially hurting the company that created the books. Thats good enough for me.
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."

"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
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Post by HemlockGrey »

Tell him to screw off.
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Post by Cpt_Frank »

Keeping it up would be cool but you might get into trouble so I'd suggest removing it.
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Post by Kerneth »

Eh, it doesn't matter if it's good enough for you, it matters if it's good enough for the judge if he gets sued for copyright infringement.
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Post by Stormbringer »

Alyeska wrote:Shep is not profiting from this violation and it is not financially hurting the company that created the books. Thats good enough for me.
But he's still in a legally actionable position. That's the long and the short of it. I agree that morally this doesn't matter one bit but the legal sense is much different. This something company created that was stolen, not a fanfic or fan film that while technically illegal are overlooked for the sake of fan appreciation.

If they really want to be hard asses about it (and they could be), Shep could be looking at 2-3 years jail time and a $100,000 in fines per violation. The law doesn't care about whether it's out of print or not, at least so far as the legality. Sentencing might be lighter should it come to that.

I'd advice Shep to take it down and apologize or they could very well initate legal action.
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Post by Patrick Ogaard »

Alyeska wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:
Alyeska wrote:I say leave it up. If a company can't profit off your purchasing the book and they won't raise a finger to provide more copies then there is nothing wrong with what your doing.
Morally maybe. But he can still get himself into a heap of legal trouble. A copyright violation is still a copyright violation unless he can make a case that it's some how a fair use exception.
Shep is not profiting from this violation and it is not financially hurting the company that created the books. Thats good enough for me.
I believe the argument actually used would be that Lucasfilm, Limited, as the actual copyright holder, is potentially being damaged. Specifically, Lucasfilm's current efforts to market its intellectual properties would be hampered by someone making available older materials for free, constituting a consumer disincentive to purchase current materials.

The real problem is that West End Games, which was supposedly sunk because of a bad Italian shoe deal, is not in fact the copyright holder of the Star Wars Imperial Sourcebook. My first printing copy specifically states that the copyright, trademark, etc. all accrue to Lucasfilm, Ltd. (LFL), all rights reserved, with trademarks of LFL sued by WEG under authorization.

Thus, WEG does not figure into the matter at all, and the demise of that company has no bearing on the potential infringement. It is strictly a question of whether or not LFL wants to pursue the matter.

I almost sound like I know what I'm talking about. Almost.
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Post by Stormbringer »

I believe the argument actually used would be that Lucasfilm, Limited, as the actual copyright holder, is potentially being damaged. Specifically, Lucasfilm's current efforts to market its intellectual properties would be hampered by someone making available older materials for free, constituting a consumer disincentive to purchase current materials.
The company doesn't have to prove damages at all. Simply violating copyright is enough to make a case.

The only way damages to the company enter into it would be sentencing.
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Post by Dalton »

I've forgotten that I put the entire Imperial Sourcebook on my site as a favor for Shep. Shep, let me know what happens with this - because I'm gonna remove it if there are any further threats of legal action.
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Post by Alyeska »

Copyright laws fucking suck. They allow companies to hold the consume hostage without any way to remedy the situation. Work is being lost because there are not enough copies to go around for the people who want them.
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."

"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
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Post by Jason von Evil »

Isn't this covered by the Fair use act?
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Post by Patrick Ogaard »

Stormbringer wrote:
I believe the argument actually used would be that Lucasfilm, Limited, as the actual copyright holder, is potentially being damaged. Specifically, Lucasfilm's current efforts to market its intellectual properties would be hampered by someone making available older materials for free, constituting a consumer disincentive to purchase current materials.
The company doesn't have to prove damages at all. Simply violating copyright is enough to make a case.

The only way damages to the company enter into it would be sentencing.
True enough.

In terms of being detrimental to the property's marketing, Hasbro, of which Wizards of the Coast, the current publisher of Star Wars role-playing game products, is a division, would actually also have a potential claim. If old stuff is available free, it might cut into Hasbro's bottom line.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Aya wrote:Isn't this covered by the Fair use act?
I don't think so, since it's a total reproduction.
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Post by Stormbringer »

Aya wrote:Isn't this covered by the Fair use act?
Simply posting it wouldn't. Fair Use requires a fairly specific set of circumstance, none of which Shep's use meets as far as I can tell.
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Post by MKSheppard »

The thing that pisses me off are jackasses like him. I spent forty fucking
dollars recently to get the best star wars game ever made, a table top
pen and paper starfighter wargame that is so good, people still refer to
all starfighter games as "Star Warrior clones".

The game came out in 1984 or something, by WEG, and has been out of
print for the last what, twenty years, and I was planning on transcribing it
to HTML so all of us could get together and wargame away with a modified
version of Star Warriors...

And when i pick up WOTC's Starships of the Galaxy, I see deckplans
done by WEG ten years ago. For example "a typical docking bay" in WOTC's
starships of the galaxy is a verbatim copy of the docking bay from
the FAR ORBIT Nebulon B Frigate from WEG's "Far Orbit Sourcebook"
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong

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Post by Darth Wong »

From my Stilgar Hatemail page, addressing Stilgar's threats of legal action based on copyright violation by quoting his E-mails in their entirety:
I wrote:Editor's note: does he always attack criticism as thievery? By the very nature of debating, rebuttals have no meaning unless the original arguments are quoted. I'd rather not dwell too much on law because it frankly isn't very interesting to me, but all engineers in Ontario are required to take courses in liability law before we can graduate.

I am therefore not totally unfamiliar with law, and in the case of an oft-contested subject like fair use, many of the relevant documents are freely available for public perusal. Just as he did in the original argument with his vague allusions to superior study, he again tries to bluff. He thinks he can make me believe that he's researched the relevant laws in depth, even though it's quite obvious he has not. In Campbell vs Acuff-Rose Music 1994, the US Supreme Court made 4 very clear statements in its judgement, each of which severely weakens Stilgar's claim of unlawful copyright infringement. Together, they totally destroy it:
  1. The Court stated quite clearly that even a "parody, like other comment and criticism, may claim fair use", even for commercial purposes, never mind the non-profit purposes to which I am using Stilgar's arguments. So much for the distinction he attempts to draw between criticism and character assassination; even mockery is protected under "fair use".
  2. The Court stated that a lower court of appeals erred in giving weight to the excessive quantity of excerption, because the quantity was "reasonable in relation to the copying's purpose", just as it would be for the discussion of a public "back and forth" exchange such as a debate. In other words, excessive quantity of excerption is evaluated on a situational basis. The excerption of entire sections from his posts is not only reasonable in this situation, but it is actually necessary, in order for rebuttals targeted at his individual points to make any sense.
  3. The Court stated that fair use depends on the extent to which the use is "transformative, altering the original with new expression, meaning, or message". Once again, a debate obviously qualifies, since the meaning of his arguments are heavily affected by the nature of my rebuttals as well as my editorial commentaries.
  4. The Court stated quite clearly that even in cases where the defendant is using the copyrighted material for commercial gain, "the cognizable harm is market substitution, not any harm from criticism". Unless Stilgar can show that there's a real or potential commercial market for his arguments (highly unlikely) and that my website is taking profits which belong to him (utterly impossible, since my website generates no profit at all), he has no case. Any emotional harm from perceived "character assassination" is thoroughly irrelevant to copyright law.
In other words, this page is completely protected by §107 of the U.S. Copyright Act, and most countries which respect copyright treaty have similar provisions in their own laws. The document is a criticism. The quantity of excerption is reasonable in relation to its purpose. The work is heavily transformative (the volume of my replies and editorial comments greatly exceeds the volume of his quoted text, and changes it from a pro-Trek pseudoscience tirade into an attack on Trekkie pseudoscience). And finally, there is no "cognizable harm" as defined by the US Supreme Court. This is just another bluff: just as he did with nuclear fusion, he is pretending to have in-depth knowledge of copyright law which he obviously doesn't have. Fraudulent claims of detailed study seem to be habit-forming for him.

In case you're curious about the international aspect of this dispute, copyright infringement is defined using the laws of the country in which the offense occurred. In this case, this means it would fall under Canadian jurisdiction. Our laws have been slowly moving towards the American model, but there are still distinctions. In Canada, we call it "fair dealing" instead of "fair use". Instead of defining four criteria for "fair use", Canadian copyright law simply states that copying is permissible for the purpose of criticism, review, or news reporting as long as the following are mentioned:
  1. The source
  2. If provided in the source, the name of the author
In Hubbard v. Vosper (1972), the following statement was entered into the record:
"It is impossible to define what is "fair dealing". It must be a question of degree. You must consider first the number and extent of the quotations and extracts. Are they altogether too many and too long to be fair? Then you must consider the use made of them. If they are used as a basis for comments, criticism or review, that may be fair dealing. If they are used to convey the same information as the author, for a rival purpose, that may be unfair. Next you must consider the proportions. To take long extracts and attach short comments may be unfair. But, short extracts and long comments may be fair. Other considerations may come to mind also. But after all is said and done, it must be a matter of impressions".
In other words, Canadian courts will assess copyright infringement on a case by case basis, based on many criteria, including purpose and relative proportions (between my contributions and his statements). Since the purpose is criticism and my text greatly outstrips his text in volume, there would be no problem on either count. In any case, I would like to see Stilgar care to try his hand at Canadian copyright law, in order to convince a judge that the use of heavily commented excerpts for the purpose of criticism constitutes copyright infringement. It would probably be quite amusing, particularly since Canadian law, unlike American law, has a "loser pays" provision in order to discourage frivolous lawsuits.

Moreover, in U&R Tax Services vs H&R Block (1995), Mr. Justice Richard listed some major criteria to be used when determining whether "fair dealing" had occurred:
  1. The quality and quantity of the material taken
  2. The extent to which the defendant's use adversely affects the plaintiff's activities and diminishes the value of the plaintiff's copyright
  3. Whether the material taken is the proper subject-matter of a copyright
  4. Whether the defendant intentionally appropriated the plaintiff's work to save time and effort
  5. Whether the material taken is used in the same or a similar fashion as the plaintiff's
These criteria make it quite obvious that the intent of Canadian copyright law is to prevent copying for plagiaristic, gainful purposes, not to give people a weapon to stifle criticism of their statements (as if this even needs to be said). The last two criteria are particularly enlightening in this regard.
The problem Shep might run into is that by simply quoting the entire text on his webpage, he may not satisfy the "fair use" requirement that the use of the text is sufficiently "transformative". The intent of the original text was to provide a resource for authors and role-player s, which is the same as the intent of Shep's page. What Shep needs to do here is critique the text or annotate it in some way, which would transform its purpose and satisfy the requirements of fair use.
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Post by Ender »

If he's just a private citizen with no connection to LFL or WEG, I'd say tell him to fuck off.
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Post by Axis Kast »

You commit copyright infringement by posting it, since they can argue that we can see many of the articles without having to seek or buy the books.

But I assume - and I'm not positive - that you can re-distribute some copies of their material - via e-mail - for "private" use.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Darth Wong wrote:The problem Shep might run into is that by simply quoting the entire text on his webpage, he may not satisfy the "fair use" requirement that the use of the text is sufficiently "transformative". The intent of the original text was to provide a resource for authors and role-player s, which is the same as the intent of Shep's page. What Shep needs to do here is critique the text or annotate it in some way, which would transform its purpose and satisfy the requirements of fair use.
To Wong you listen.

Do that and tell them to fuck off.

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Post by MKSheppard »

This screwball is from:

http://www.starwars-rpg.net/

I have a mind to tell him to sod off and replace all the URLs
to pictures of Goat.ce.x and give y'all the secret hidden links
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Post by Cal Wright »

I'm with you on that one Shep. Do what Wong says, then royally fuck things over for the asshats. Is this guy like an LFL official or some role playing wanker?

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Post by Macross »

MKSheppard wrote:This screwball is from:

http://www.starwars-rpg.net/

I have a mind to tell him to sod off and replace all the URLs
to pictures of Goat.ce.x and give y'all the secret hidden links
I dont think there is any reason to be overly hostile towards him. Hes just trying to defend the online RPG community, and his concerns are valid.

I would simply thank him for his concern, and tell him that the material falls under the catagory of 'fair use' and use some of the material that others have posted above to support your claim.

To antagonize him would only invite him to cantact your web provider, and/or LFL lawyers. This is not worth all that aggrevation.
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

If he's just some Wankers of the Coast gan bitch please do have fun but no trolling his stie.

Remind them that they did not create RPGs and I have met with some of the original war gamers that were the first RPGers.
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