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Hey. Well, I figured I'd open a thread to discuss the morality of some of the Jedi's actions, namely how they acquire Jedi at such a young age. Let's please try to keep this debate civil. I am going into this with an open mind and will acknowledge anything anyone says as long as it is reasonable and has logic and evidence to back up and you are polite. Also, please forgive me if I ramble too much; I'm still a little new to online debates, and I may end up just making points that others elaborate on. Plus I'm a little slow. With that said, let's get into the discussion proper.

It's been said in several EU books that the Jedi during the Old Republic only accepted really young children, as in babies or toddlers. Are the Jedi kidnapping babies and turning them into brainwashed state police? Technically, they can't do it without the parents' permission, but that's slipped by them before. A Jedi's life is difficult, as we've seen many times, and the Jedi of the Old Order were very flawed. These children will not be allowed to form attachments to anything, and their whole life is about service: service to the Force, service to the greater good, service to justice, service to authority, service to the Republic - you get the idea. But would the children ultimately be better off with their parents than with the children? With their parents, they would form attachments and turn out good or evil either way, depending on their own beliefs, choices, and how they were raised. Then there is the possibility that some rogue Jedi or Sith would take the child and raise him or her as their own apprentice, which is more than likely how Palpatine became a Sith Lord.

Another point is that it's implied heavily (but nowhere near as strongly as in Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords or Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader) that being a Jedi is not as important as being a human being, and the Jedi we've seen are more like emotionless droids who fear even the slightest emotion for fear that it will lead to the dark side. I don't care what Mace Windu says, the Jedi were aggressive soldiers dedicated to keeping the peace through any means necessary, and in that aspect, it's no different than movies like Soldier or Halo, where children are taken away from their parents and trained to kill or destroy.

In the Revenge of the Sith novelization, Palpatine outright states that the Jedi choose their candidates at such a young age because their "victims" will be more receptive to their teachings and grow up not to question the great wisdom or the Council or the rule of law, like some sort of advanced indoctrination program, and I have to admit, even though I know most of what Palpatine says are lies, I found what he said to actually be making sense and I believed him in spite of myself. So, I guess I've said all I can say on this subject. I'll leave it up to the rest of you to carry on. Do the Jedi brainwash young children, or are their actions justified?

What do you think? XD

I think it was the biggest mistake Lucas made with TPM (and he made many) to have Yoda reuse the "too old he is" line on ten year old Annakin.

Especially since in Empire Strikes Back, it was obviously Yoda looking for excuses to not do it at all.

Whom ever raises a particular child, 'brainwashes' them in what ever views and values that particular person believes in. So, not sure if I'd use that term, as it seems a bit prejudicial. As far as if it's moral or note, in our society, to do so, I'm not sure. Certainly in the SW universe, being a Jedi is an amazing opportunity, a position of power and wealth (maybe not personally but as an Order itself, it is very wealthy) that a majority of the galaxy can only dream of. I would find the your charge of 'training them to be super duper soldiers or secret police to the Republic' would be more on target if they didn't spend so many years training them. As it is, they spend almost two decades training these guys/gals, half of it in a apprenticeship type relationship with a Master. That the Republic/Jedi take so long to make what they consider a properly trained Jedi (not that they don't have flaws) and so have to start early is vastly different morally than if they took young apprentices and trained them for a couple years and sent them out to work.

So... if it takes 15-20 to get them to the level it takes to be a useful Jedi, then it does make sense to start early so you can have them out there doing their thing before they turn 40.

Lord Falcon wrote:Are the Jedi kidnapping babies and turning them into brainwashed state police?

No. The Jedi recruit children from willing parents or from those found in orphanages. The idea that Jedi kidnapped children was purposeful misinformation from Holonet News (a fake news site operated by Lucas Films to make canon articles of Star Wars news) where they wanted an article about a pointless happening that the news media would latch onto.0

This was the baby Ludy custody case wherein after a natural disaster occurred baby Ludi's parents couldn't be found and were presumed dead, she was sent to a state orphanage where the Jedi found and adopted her. Then her mother came forth, however, when Baby Ludi was transferred to another training facility at fourteen months old (which was standard OP) her mother was too busy working on the equivalent of a made-for-tv drama to answer questions.

This is then pushed by Karen Traviss who will latch onto anything to discredit the Jedi.

Jedi, at least of the New Jedi Order, seem to be promoted within 5-10 years to Master level, and while they are no doubt not quite as highly trained as the Jedi of the Old Order, they are still considered quite powerful. I don't quite think the power/training argument will fly here.

The Jedi of the prequel trilogies were shown to be highly aggressive also in the books as well as the movies. I don't have the book with me, but in the Jedi Apprentice book #7. The Captive Temple Qui-Gon goes after Xanatos with intent to kill him, even thinking that it was not borne out of malice or hate, but simply because he was too dangerous to let live. Before anyone says so, I'll add that you could argue Qui-Gon was a maverick among Jedi and it was personal with Xanatos, but Qui-Gon surely couldn't have been the ONLY Jedi with that type of personality.

And here's a quote from The Rise of Darth Vader:

"I never wanted you to be found," Jula said when she had deactivated the holoprojector. "To this day I don't understand how your father could hand you over to the Jedi. When I learned he had contacted the Temple, and that Jedi agents were coming for you, I tried to talk your father into hiding you."

"That rarely happens," Shryne said. "Most Force-sensitive infants were voluntarily surrendered to the Temple."

"Really? Well, it happened to me."

There you go.

Lord Falcon wrote:And here's a quote from The Rise of Darth Vader:
There you go.

That's nice, but it still says his father voluntarily gave the child over and does not elucidate on whether Jula or her parents were justified in attempting to hide children from the Jedi. Remember that there's only ~10k Jedi at the height of the Order, most of what people heard about Jedi is hearsay. Going by the fact that state testing for force-sensitivity is a requirement, there's no way they could've stopped the Jedi from knowing about Jula or Roan and no way for them to stop the Jedi if they really wanted to abduct them. It's pretty much the Star Wars version of 'the Jews are poisoning our wells'.

If the Jedi taking the child was legal, then that suggests that the law allows a father to hand over a child for adoption without the mother's consent, which is fucked up in its own way.

Either way, it does not reflect well on the state of the legal system.

then that suggests that the law allows a father to hand over a child for adoption without the mother's consent

Just a note that the mother in this case was a notorious smuggler, that might have played a part in the Jedi taking the child on only the father’s wishes. Alternatively there could be no way for the Jedi to check if both parents of a child are still alive, Jen could have simply told the Jedi she was dead.

The Jedi of the prequel trilogies were shown to be highly aggressive also in the books as well as the movies.

One quote from a book does not make a universal trend for a 10,000 strong organisation. Not to mention that Qui-Gon actually tried to capture Xanatos. The movies are quite clear in that the Jedi don’t go around butchering people!

Going by the fact that state testing for force-sensitivity is a requirement

Where is this established? Screening out a few hundred people a year out of an entire galaxy strikes me as a horrendously expensive task, especially when most planets won’t see a Jedi for hundreds of years at a time to give them a reason to have such an expensive screening system. There would be something like a 0.000004% chance of having a Jedi padawan on your planet per year!

General Schatten wrote:

Lord Falcon wrote:Are the Jedi kidnapping babies and turning them into brainwashed state police?

No. The Jedi recruit children from willing parents or from those found in orphanages. The idea that Jedi kidnapped children was purposeful misinformation from Holonet News (a fake news site operated by Lucas Films to make canon articles of Star Wars news) where they wanted an article about a pointless happening that the news media would latch onto.0

This was the baby Ludy custody case wherein after a natural disaster occurred baby Ludi's parents couldn't be found and were presumed dead, she was sent to a state orphanage where the Jedi found and adopted her. Then her mother came forth, however, when Baby Ludi was transferred to another training facility at fourteen months old (which was standard OP) her mother was too busy working on the equivalent of a made-for-tv drama to answer questions.

This is then pushed by Karen Traviss who will latch onto anything to discredit the Jedi.

No. Even if we were to ignore the Holonet article, the Jedi abducted my baby formed a significant subplot and motivation for one of Darth Maul novels antagonists.(Shadow Hunter)

Although in this scenario, the permission was apparently revoked post hoc so..................

Acck... Missed the edit button.

One should note that the actual scenario displayed in Shadow Hunter was arguably worse than the mere abduction of children. The Jedi did not enter the contract in good faith, as they failed to tell Pavan that he would not be able to see his son due to the Jedi philosophy of non attachment. To make matters worse, they actually fired Pavan from his job at the Jedi Temple so that he wouldn't make any more attempts to continue to see his son.

Even if we were to accept that his firing was in reaction to Pavan attempts to see his son, the moral ramifications of your employer terminating your job merely because you wished to see your own child is quite disturbing.

A similar fate happens to the parent's of Jedi Lorana Jinzler, whose parents worked at the Jedi Temple and who had all their children tested as soon as they could. When Lorana was chosen her parents were fired and banned from approaching the Temple. (As explained in "Outbound Flight/Survivor's Quest").

I'm not entirely sure how far back in the Order's history this policy goes. The 'babies only' rule was at first unique to the prequel movies, but the wider EU seems have pushed it further and further back into SW history, to the point where the amnesiac Revan's age was commented-upon in KOTOR. The fact that the Jedi did not turn him away suggests that infancy was considered merely ideal, not compulsory, at that stage.

In the Tales of the Jedi comics, covering the careers of Ulic Qel Droma and Exar Kun (whose exploits were still in living memory in KOTOR IIRC), the Jedi Order seems to have been a comparitively loose and decentralized institution. Jedi seem to have free choice in terms of clothing, and it is implied that would-be Jedi begin their training in their teens. Nomi Sunrider was a grown woman with a young daughter when she began her training, having held back from it until the death of her Jedi husband, who had known for some time of her potential and had from time to time tried to persuade her to undergo training.

The story of Zayne Carrick provides a reminder that the Jedi are still 'human' and capable of severe misjudgement. His fellow Padawans were murdered by their own Masters (the First WatchCircle of the Jedi Covenant) on the basis of a vision that one of them would become a Sith in the future (the vision actually showed someone in a red environmental suit of the kind the Padawans happened to be wearing when the vision took place). On top of this the Masters framed Zayne for the crime, forcing him to flee for his life. Funnily enough their leader, Lucien Draay, was the son of Jedi Master Krynda Draay, the Covenant's founder. This shows that it was quite acceptable for Jedi to marry (at least to other Jedi) and have children, though Zayne was himself taken into the Order as a Youngling at a very young age.

The best explanation I've been able to find for the babies-only rule comes from the Holonet timeline on the 'The Old Republic' website. It mentions that the Sith actually managed to infiltrate the Jedi Order over many generations, raising their ostensibly Jedi children as Sith infiltrators in turn. This suggests that the no-attachments and babies-only rules were derived at least in part from a need to prevent such infiltrations in the future. If outsiders cannot marry into the Jedi community, and every Jedi is raised under their total control from babyhood, then such a thing cannot happen again.

My current theory is that this was part of a long-term process by which the Jedi became increasingly centralized, disciplined, and closetted. A side effect of this 'loss of innocence' was that the Jedi became increasingly suspicious of outsiders, especially other force-using groups and cultures, though according to 'The Jedi Path' there are some (such as the Aing-Tii and the Baran do) whom they at least tolerate. This same source gives some insight into the thinking behind the recruiting process. It states that blood testing for Midi-Chlorians is mandatory within the Republic, and that the Jedi have the legal authority to take custody of Force-sensitive children. Their reasoning behind this is that training takes a lifetime, and that the Jedi can offer the best possible environment for training. Luke Skywalker's note in the margin states that he has no intention of reviving this custom, and that membership in the New Jedi Order will be completely voluntary.

Those are some good points, Juubi Karakuchi. The only EU material I know of which deals with this issue is the Jedi Apprentice book #9. The Fight for Truth, and it's quite obvious to me that the only reason they needed parental permission to secure the child was because the family in question came from the Outer Rim, in which the Republic had no authority. I never got to see what the same process was like inside the Republic.

Juubi Karakuchi wrote:I'm not entirely sure how far back in the Order's history this policy goes. The 'babies only' rule was at first unique to the prequel movies, but the wider EU seems have pushed it further and further back into SW history, to the point where the amnesiac Revan's age was commented-upon in KOTOR. The fact that the Jedi did not turn him away suggests that infancy was considered merely ideal, not compulsory, at that stage.

That entire scene is best viewed through the lens of what the Jedi council on Dantooine knows about Revan that Revan himself doesn't know on account of the amnesia.

The Jedi know amnesiac-Revan has the potential to become a great and powerful Jedi knight. That's exactly what they're afraid of, because they don't really want to risk unlocking his full potential and having him fall to the dark side again. In a real sense, their "training" of Revan is a sham, because all Revan is doing is unlocking power and skill he already possessed. So the fact that Revan is unusually old can't be taken as evidence one way or the other.

In the Tales of the Jedi comics, covering the careers of Ulic Qel Droma and Exar Kun (whose exploits were still in living memory in KOTOR IIRC), the Jedi Order seems to have been a comparitively loose and decentralized institution. Jedi seem to have free choice in terms of clothing, and it is implied that would-be Jedi begin their training in their teens. Nomi Sunrider was a grown woman with a young daughter when she began her training, having held back from it until the death of her Jedi husband, who had known for some time of her potential and had from time to time tried to persuade her to undergo training.

All this does seem to be true. Jolee Bindo's wife (well, I'm not sure they ever married, but either wife or lover) likewise took some Jedi training as an adult.

The story of Zayne Carrick provides a reminder that the Jedi are still 'human' and capable of severe misjudgement. His fellow Padawans were murdered by their own Masters (the First WatchCircle of the Jedi Covenant) on the basis of a vision that one of them would become a Sith in the future (the vision actually showed someone in a red environmental suit of the kind the Padawans happened to be wearing when the vision took place). On top of this the Masters framed Zayne for the crime, forcing him to flee for his life. Funnily enough their leader, Lucien Draay, was the son of Jedi Master Krynda Draay, the Covenant's founder. This shows that it was quite acceptable for Jedi to marry (at least to other Jedi) and have children, though Zayne was himself taken into the Order as a Youngling at a very young age.

This much seems true- the Jedi of the "thousands of years ago" period were much less strict about the puritanical rules of the movie era. Personally, I suspect Yoda had a lot to do with shaping the Order into what it was over centuries of being the wisest, and among the most powerful, of its leaders. There are passages from his point of view in the Episode III novelization that delve into this- I'm afraid I can't recall the exact text, though.

There might have been a retcon in this regard in recent times.

People might recall that when Cad Bane was running around, impersonating a Jedi master to kidnap Force sensitive babies for Palpatine's experiments, there was explicit mention by one of the mothers' that 'it was earlier than agreed' or some such thing, with the implication that those robot-attended nurseries in the Jedi Temple's basement might have been discretely excised from continuity.

It is also entirely possible that when the Jedi located a child, the parents had final say on if the child went to the temple.

In that case, it's possible the mother in question said 'Okay, you can take my baby from training, when he reaches' followed by an age and date.

After all, the Jedi had to make consession to the Corellians about Jedi training and family connections.

Simon_Jester: Are these the passages you mean?

Finally, he saw the truth.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known . . .

just—

didn't—

have it.

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

He had lost before he was born.

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi—

The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

And:

"My failure, this was. Failed the Jedi, I did."

He spoke to the Force.

And the Force answered him. Do not blame yourself, my old friend.

As it sometimes had these past thirteen years, when the Force spoke to him, it spoke in the voice of Qui-Gon Jinn.

"Too old I was," Yoda said. "Too rigid. Too arrogant to see that the old way is not the only way. These Jedi, I trained to become the Jedi who had trained me, long centuries ago—but those ancient Jedi, of a different time they were. Changed, has the galaxy. Changed, the Order did not—because let it change, I did not."

More easily said than done, my friend.

"An infinite mystery is the Force." Yoda lifted his head and turned his gaze out into the wheel of stars. "Much to learn, there still is."

Didn't Jolee Bindo keep his wife/lover a secret, and it was only revealed after he failed to kill her even though she had fallen to the dark side?

The babies-only rule of the old Jedi Order is very flawed, when you think about. Luke and Leia were raised outside the Jedi, yet they still turned out okay. So did Kyle Katarn and Corran Horn. Whether or not one falls to the dark side seems to be dependent on their experiences and their own personality. It really feels as though they are taking away potential Jedi's choices, something very important to the Star Wars mythos, when they take them into the Jedi Order as younglings. Children are more receptive at that age (some might say more susceptible to brainwashing) than they are if they joined the Order at 20 like Luke did.

Like Jolee himself says:

"The Jedi, with their damnable sense of over-caution, would tell you love is something to avoid. Thankfully, anyone who's even partially alive knows that's not true."

The evidence is self-explanatory; the Jedi are so afraid of a fall to the dark side that they will take any steps to avoid themselves or anyone else succumbing to it.

Solauren wrote:It is also entirely possible that when the Jedi located a child, the parents had final say on if the child went to the temple.

In that case, it's possible the mother in question said 'Okay, you can take my baby from training, when he reaches' followed by an age and date.

After all, the Jedi had to make consession to the Corellians about Jedi training and family connections.

That makes a lot of sense, at least in certain cases. The Republic is essentially a UN-like entity trying to be a unitary state (and by the prequel movies failing miserably). It contains polities and identities that are truly ancient, moreso than any real-life state or culture, with whom it has to make all manner of compromises to stop them storming off in a huff. I would not be surprised if the Jedi had to do likewise.

Lord Falcon wrote: The evidence is self-explanatory; the Jedi are so afraid of a fall to the dark side that they will take any steps to avoid themselves or anyone else succumbing to it.

That was pretty much my conclusion. They became somewhat like the 'Open Palm' philosophy in 'Jade Empire' when taken to its extreme.

Lord Falcon wrote:Simon_Jester: Are these the passages you mean?
(snip)
And:
(snip)

Yes, those were exactly the ones. Thank you.

Didn't Jolee Bindo keep his wife/lover a secret, and it was only revealed after he failed to kill her even though she had fallen to the dark side?

Perhaps. I can't remember.

The babies-only rule of the old Jedi Order is very flawed, when you think about. Luke and Leia were raised outside the Jedi, yet they still turned out okay. So did Kyle Katarn and Corran Horn. Whether or not one falls to the dark side seems to be dependent on their experiences and their own personality. It really feels as though they are taking away potential Jedi's choices, something very important to the Star Wars mythos, when they take them into the Jedi Order as younglings. Children are more receptive at that age (some might say more susceptible to brainwashing) than they are if they joined the Order at 20 like Luke did.

Like Jolee himself says:

"The Jedi, with their damnable sense of over-caution, would tell you love is something to avoid. Thankfully, anyone who's even partially alive knows that's not true."

The evidence is self-explanatory; the Jedi are so afraid of a fall to the dark side that they will take any steps to avoid themselves or anyone else succumbing to it.

Yes. On one level, it's hard to blame them- every really significant crisis in the history of the civilized galaxy revolved around dark side Force users, often Dark Jedi who rebelled against the Order. The strict monasticism of the Order has always been intended to combat that- and the Jedi themselves tend to interpret all their successes and failures in terms of their own mysticism. When a Jedi does not fall it is because they stuck to the Code; when a Jedi falls it is because they gave in to passion, which just proves that all passion is bad.

The strict monasticism of the Jedi might very well be the reason why certain of its members get fed up and go out looking for Sith holocrons, reviving the order time and time and again. What good is getting taught in the ways of the Force if your only career choice afterwards is to live as an ascetic public servant?

A slightly tangential question. Most of Jedi training seems to be about honing their instincts, intuition, and empathy or just teaching them to rely on these things. "Let go, trust your feelings." "Feel, don't think." Even "Trust the Force" seems to be trusting the Force to influence you to make the right decisions.

So why seperate them from their parents at a young age, and have them live a monastic lifestyle in a cold marble temple? Doesn't that seem sort of antithetical to that sort of training?

I think their emphasis is on "feel, without distractions." If you had feelings for others (family, friends, SOs) that would cloud your ability to feel "truly" with the Force.

Forgothrax wrote:I think their emphasis is on "feel, without distractions." If you had feelings for others (family, friends, SOs) that would cloud your ability to feel "truly" with the Force.

Pretty much this. The monastic thing is to prevent them from forming attachments that might come back to bite them in the ass later. Plus it lets Yoda and Co keep a close eye on things.

I'm personally torn on whether the babies-only rule is a good thing.

On the one hand I'm completely distrustful of any state-sponsored organisation that will only train kids and will cast them out if they don't fulfill certain unnecessary requirements.It seems like a very conveniently justified form of brainwash. Also Jedi have turned out fine without being trained at birth.

On the other hand, for a group of supposedly neutral diplomats/warriors it's a good idea that everyone be worried only with the cause. Yes, you can train people to be impartial but how far can you take that? Also we've seen the damage caused when Jedi go rogue. We've also seen what happened when they weren't stopped for emotional reasons. Jacen Solo comes to mind (although to be fair to the NJO there was very little they could do then considering that they hadn't quite begun their democracy-subverting ways) excuses were constantly made for him simply because he was family. And Luke nearly fell as well at the end of Sacrifice, hell some would consider his actions a temporary fall.

All in all I guess the problem comes from not being selective. If you choose the right adults then you probably won't have problems, but how to choose, how do you know how good someone is or if they'll stay that way? The Jedi aren't infallible, they have to go on their gut which could lead to disaster. It's that or institute a set of strict requirements similar to that of the OR Jedi.