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Here's a thought: How much of force use in the story is based on faith, and how much on sheer ability? I have a thought.

Luke is constantly chided to clear his mind, trust his feelings, have faith. When yoda yoinks his fighter out of the mud, Luke declares the feat impossible and that he doesn't believe it. Yoda bites back with, "That is why you fail." Yoda seems to insinuate that faith makes the force stronger.

In the movies, faith is mentioned a lot by force-users as being important. Vader is told of his sad devotion to an 'ancient religion' and Vader responds with the famous, "I find your lack of faith disturbing." He too insinuates that jediism is a religion built to honor their 'god' - the Force - and that they are stronger BECAUSE of their affiliation with it (the Christian 'we're better BECAUASE we believe in God' statement).

Now, this all brings up a neat point: does force use have anything to do with faith? Anakin obviously posesses force abilities without any faith in the force, but his abilities are unrefined, and remain so until his religious conversion to the Sith. In their universe, force users seems to be chosen at random, but hard application of the force seems to be rooted in 'accepting the faith' that the Jedi propegate.

I believe that the Jedi feel that faith is key to their interaction with the force. They have a Christian-like arrogance in their belief system. When a non-believer (Anakin) does superb things, they tell him that it's because the Force lets him do those things, and he should become a believer. Now, in their universe this is because the Force DOES exist, but it's a similar parallel to Christians saying that whenever something good happens, it's because god allowed it to happen, because to them god does exist, too. This extends the Jedi notion that faith makes the force interaction stronger, not just training.

What's more, when a force-user does force-things, the effects are at their most impressive when faith is pure and they don't rationalize the impossibility of what they are doing - in effect, trusting their 'god' to create 'miracles' through them - Luke's 1000:1 shot in ANH, yoda lifting the fighter, etc.

I believe Force use is tied directly not to ability, but faith. Any other opinions?

What's more, when a force-user does force-things, the effects are at their most impressive when faith is pure and they don't rationalize the impossibility of what they are doing - in effect, trusting their 'god' to create 'miracles' through them - Luke's 1000:1 shot in ANH, yoda lifting the fighter, etc.

Then Consider, Dathmoir Witchs who never had any information about the "Force" rather they though they where using Magic and chanted spells and the like yet they where capable of things Luke could never dream of such as a real-time model of the Imperal Prision made of nothing but sand, The Force Storm and one was able to snap every Imperals neck on the landing field with a word

I'd like to see Vadar do THAT or Luke(Though Wussy him never would )

Mr Bean wrote: one was able to snap every Imperals neck on the landing field with a word

I'd like to see Vadar do THAT or Luke(Though Wussy him never would )

I'd be more surprised if Vader couldn't do that myself. Luke well.... depends which book in some he's uber god Jedi in others he's about as powerful as a semi retarded 6 year old initiate.

Mr Bean wrote:

Then Consider, Dathmoir Witchs who never had any information about the "Force" rather they though they where using Magic and chanted spells and the like yet they where capable of things Luke could never dream of...

Okay, I admit I don't know what a Dathmoir Witch is. I'm assuming it's from one of the many books and/or comics. Based on that input, I still think that the Jedi derive the main benefits of the force through faith in general, not training. Do these witches actually USE the force, or another power entirely? And do they use it naturally, or is honing their skills through religious behaviour and training?

Think of the argument as: could a non-initated force user in that universe (someone who is strong in the force, but has no OUTSIDE help) self-train to the levels of a Jedi or these witches?

Do these witches actually USE the force

Yes they do. Dathomir was orgional a colony (forced colony) of bad nasty people who had done wrong(crimals) well one of them was an old diying Jedi, She passed on her Jedi Abilites to her female offspring and a few how-tos but never any training(All mentioned in Court-ship of Princes Leia)
So they had no instruction in Jedi abilites and no only that when the Jedi came back fifty years later they got there rears handed to them
Yoda inculded

Well, that's just wierd. Still technically Jedi upbringing, since the original mother must have passed on the basic philosophical and religious tenets of the Jedi order, which got warped over time by the isolated community.

And that whole thing raises the other point of whether the Force is hereditary or not.

Well, that's just wierd. Still technically Jedi upbringing, since the original mother must have passed on the basic philosophical and religious tenets of the Jedi order, which got warped over time by the isolated community.

Her oldest daughter was six, they where living in the Wilderness how much she learned(And how much time they acutal had to teach her) is quite debatable and unlikly

Mr Bean wrote:

Her oldest daughter was six, they where living in the Wilderness how much she learned(And how much time they acutal had to teach her) is quite debatable and unlikly

Hrm. Hard to call. Jedi are trained from a ludicrously young age (earlier than 10 or so, if Ep.I is clear), so if the child was ever identified as a Force-user she may have recieved some training, even in the wilderness (wilderness not really being a barrier to religious or physical training by, say, mom).

On the other side, if we're considering her faith in the force as training (again talking about my idea that honing force-skills is as much faith as training), I know six year olds who have recieved massive amounts of religious training, and who know all about the basic stories of god and jesus and the like, so the kid *could* have recieved the necessary training to give her a base on which to build her faith in the 'higher power' of the Force, right?

Hrm. Hard to call. Jedi are trained from a ludicrously young age (earlier than 10 or so, if Ep.I is clear), so if the child was ever identified as a Force-user she may have recieved some training, even in the wilderness (wilderness not really being a barrier to religious or physical training by, say, mom).

No no you misunderstand me
They where living in the woods with RANCORS(This is there home planet after all) and lots of other nasty things with NO Lightsabers/Tools/Tecnology and where stranded there. The Jedi in question was not a Master but a Knight and from indications she had gone a little bit to the dark side before she died. She died when her first daughter was six and the second four, I think se died in labor with number 3 not sure I'll have to check but keep in mind she had none of the nice things that Yoda and Co have to teach there Students this was simple backwater danguerous hellish planets

Second they refer to the "Force" as magic describe the orgional Jedi and her desdiants as Witchs, chant when they use the Force and do things and use abilites Luke is constantly left amazed at(Like I said Yoda and Co got thier rears handed to them when they tried to retrive a ship that went down on thier planet)

Okay, Bean. So the chance of them being trained in any Jedi arts was zero, you're saying. Okay, then. I'd have to read the book for myself. Which book is it?

Still think that if they're chanting, etc., they're practicing based on faith. I mean, their mom must have at least said, "There's this mystical power, it's the force, it guides us and gives us powers, etc."

Nevertheless, I'll read the book, since I'm flying blind otherwise on that particular tangent of the force's application. Chants are often used to help focus concentration or meditation, for example.

Despite that, I'm still convinced that at least the Jedi amplify their abilities with the force through their faith in it's guidance.

I'll give you that some of it does appear to be mental

The Book is Courtship of Princess Leia deals with the Witchs, The fact Han has a ton of illeagle goodies on his ship he never get to use, Hapans and lots of people diying(ALOT)

But doesn't that story support the Faith argument?

They have faith in their witch craft that is much stronger than the Jedi faith in the force - even if it is the force which is providing the power - or in this case (as it sounds) the dark side.

It sounds to me like this story supports the argument. That faith is the driving power behind the force.

-Personally I always saw it more Zen like than faith based. Seeking a Force state - or alignment of the person and the force. If the uninitiated think of it as a religion - that serves Vader's purposes even more. -Though that doesn't answer the Yoda question.

They have faith in their witch craft that is much stronger than the Jedi faith in the force - even if it is the force which is providing the power - or in this case (as it sounds) the dark side.

No acutal they don't have any faith in thier craft. Its like saying Vadar has faith in those 200 GT Turbolasers, No he just uses them to make people go kaboom!

They view the force as nothing more than a tool. Its there, it works, so who cares?

Now, this all brings up a neat point: does force use have anything to do with faith? Anakin obviously posesses force abilities without any faith in the force, but his abilities are unrefined, and remain so until his religious conversion to the Sith. In their universe, force users seems to be chosen at random, but hard application of the force seems to be rooted in 'accepting the faith' that the Jedi propegate.

Is there anything to suggest that Anakin Skywalker has no faith in the force, at least after he is inducted into the Jedi Order? I'm not being a smartass, I'm just asking out of curiousity.

The big difference between Christians and Jedi is that the Jedi's faith in the force produces physical, tangible results, while the faith of a Christian can do precisely dick in that realm.

Durran Korr wrote:

Now, this all brings up a neat point: does force use have anything to do with faith? Anakin obviously posesses force abilities without any faith in the force, but his abilities are unrefined, and remain so until his religious conversion to the Sith. In their universe, force users seems to be chosen at random, but hard application of the force seems to be rooted in 'accepting the faith' that the Jedi propegate.

Is there anything to suggest that Anakin Skywalker has no faith in the force, at least after he is inducted into the Jedi Order? I'm not being a smartass, I'm just asking out of curiousity.

The big difference between Christians and Jedi is that the Jedi's faith in the force produces physical, tangible results, while the faith of a Christian can do precisely dick in that realm.

And what of Moslems, Buddhists, Mormons, Jews, or other religions, or does only Christianity retain this dubious honor? Interesting that you single out Christianity, however....

Tangible results of Christian faith are as countless as the stars. I'll not go into monotonous detail of the many schools, hospitals, orphanages, etc., etc., etc., that have been built by those claiming faith in Christ.

There are also those who misuse the name of Christ to work atrocities, following none of the teachings of Jesus. Of course the same can be said of every other major religion and political causes as well.

And what of Moslems, Buddhists, Mormons, Jews, or other religions, or does only Christianity retain this dubious honor? Interesting that you single out Christianity, however....

I singled out Christianity because that's the only religion this thread seems to be dealing with. You're right though, all other religions are like Christianity in that sense.

Tangible results of Christian faith are as countless as the stars. I'll not go into monotonous detail of the many schools, hospitals, orphanages, etc., etc., etc., that have been built by those claiming faith in Christ.

OK, but these are all things within the capability of normal human potential. Is there a documented case of a Christian being able to do truly superhuman things on account on his/her faith, like levitate objects and deflect incoming projectiles?

Insofar as the ability to conduct physical manipulation of objects as we see in the Force, only Bilblical references speak of miracles done by Christ (healing, changing water into wine, etc.). Unless I'm mistaken, only the original disciples (Judas notwithstanding) had some of the capacity of Jesus to perform miracles on his level, and then for not very long.

Some religions outside of Christianity claim to be able to manipulate objects, although I can't think of their name just now.

Jeebus, Jegs, you'd think Durran told you that Christ hung by the cross with a nail in his arse for balance. Look, Christians and all the other faiths can tout their successes and bury their failures as much as they want, that's not relevant to the discussion. And Durran, don't taunt the Christians after midnight or they turn into little green guys that eat biology teachers and...or is that Gremlins...whatever.

The issue at hand is whether truly ADVANCED (ie. 'miracle-working') force power is tied to the affinity of the user, or whether it is tied into the user's faith in their 'higher power'. My argument is that the Jedi require faith to hone their skills, or you'd see reckless, self-trained Force users all over the place in the outer rim worlds of the Empire.

It seems that the Jedi's power is based around the Force itself and not necessarily their faith in it.

We have two sides to the force, light and dark - depending on personality and strength you stay with one or fall to the other. But it is one force - two sides of the coin - but one force. Or the absolute.

I think its the definition of the world faith that is being used incorrectly - this is why I still think of the force based on Zen or some other light vs. dark belief system versus a western religion.

If you interpret faith to equate belief? Then both Vader and Yoda's statements make sense.

So Vader says 'I find you lack of faith (or belief in the dark side) disturbing.' and proves the man wrong by choking him.
Same deal can be done with Yoda - it is the belief in the power of the force that causes Luke to fail. He hasn't bought the whole deal yet.
Hasn't accepted the absolute and become one with it yet - given himself to it to control it.

Han's statement also makes sense if you use the word faith in reference to a belief. He doesn't believe in the force.

I'm not sure I'm being real clear in the difference. Your power isn't determined by the amount of belief or faith that you have. Its determined by accepting the force and then being lucky enough to be strong in it. Hence 'the force is strong in this one.' You enter the absolute that is the force, give yourself to it and thus can manipulate the physical world via your own will. So the faith or belief is that the force exists. How powerful you are is determined by some other unknown factor.

Any way - this isn't a christian view of the universe at all. When you give yourself to Christ - you don't gain power - you gain freedome from stress, sin, worry etc... but you don't get to manipulate the world.

Does that make sense to anyone?

I haven't read all the replies, so I apologise if I cover something that someone else has already stated;

Lagmonster wrote:Here's a thought: How much of force use in the story is based on faith, and how much on sheer ability? I have a thought.

Luke is constantly chided to clear his mind, trust his feelings, have faith. When yoda yoinks his fighter out of the mud, Luke declares the feat impossible and that he doesn't believe it. Yoda bites back with, "That is why you fail." Yoda seems to insinuate that faith makes the force stronger.

In the movies, faith is mentioned a lot by force-users as being important. Vader is told of his sad devotion to an 'ancient religion' and Vader responds with the famous, "I find your lack of faith disturbing." He too insinuates that jediism is a religion built to honor their 'god' - the Force - and that they are stronger BECAUSE of their affiliation with it (the Christian 'we're better BECAUASE we believe in God' statement).

For the Yoda quote, I guess I should point out that you are leaving out the whole context of the demonstratin, Yoda also says; 'You must unlearn all that you have learned'. While this could also be reasoned to more of the whole faith issue, I prefer to interpret it as Luke is like Darth Wong,

When most of us were claiming that with magic, and the I consider the Force to be like magic, existed outside the laws of science i.e. the one ring can only be unmade in the fires of Mount Doom, and not be a certain level of heat, Darth Wong's excellent scientific mind went the wrong way with it. I believe that Luke at the time of TESB was like that, he could believe that he could move rocks with his mind, he could do that with his hands, but not something as massive as an X-Wing.

Now Yoda was trying to demostrate that real world cans and cannots don't apply or better yet limit the Force. I mean Newton's third law, should have squashed Yoda when he was levitating the X-Wing, and Luke couldn't understand how this was possible. So yes in a sense it is about faith, or as I prefer to understand it, understanding that there is more than one possibility when the supernatural comes into play.

I prefer to think that Yoda was chastising Luke, for not having faith in his own abilities rather than an absence of faith in the Force.

And as for the Vader quote, once again I believe he was chastising the Empiral officer that did not have faith in him, more than anything else.