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I came up with an interesting notion regarding lightsabre use.

Why are they not more prevalent in Imperial, or even Republic, society? They're not mystical weapons. They're technology, capable of being manufactured by anyone. Yet they're not in use anywhere but the Jedi and Sith orders.

The most obvious reason would be social. The Empire was out to kill Jedi, and carrying a lightsabre could mean a death sentence. Still, you don't see them in use in republic life either, or by criminal factions. Why? This is a universe where LOTS of people carry vibroblades, primitive axes, and all manner of close-combat weaponry (Save knives. No one carries a simple chiv even). The lightsabre is probably the BEST of the close-range weapons. It's light, concealable, and has a myriad of practical uses outside of combat. Despite the dangers of wielding it, it's more effective than ANY other hand-to-hand weapon in the SW universe (from the movies), given its ability to cleave through other weapons without having to parry off of them.

The reason can also not be that the weapons are hard to build: Luke builds a lightsabre from spare parts in a hut on an uncivilized planet with no help. There seems to be no logical reason, outside of social and political considerations (and half the universe are criminals anyway, so what do they care) to not carrying one as a secondary weapon.

Maybe there is something about lightsabers that only jedi have access to. Or that force ability is how you make one.

Or maybe they are really expensive. and local scum can't afford it.

There's nothing mystical about a lightsaber. Never has been.

What may have happened is the Jedi put pressure on the Senate to outlaw them for use by non-Jedi. This would fit in their typical arrogance.

If the cops trying to use them in Conquest (or was it Rebirth?) are anything to go by then it's a good thing that people don't use them.

Crazy_Vasey wrote:If the cops trying to use them in Conquest (or was it Rebirth?) are anything to go by then it's a good thing that people don't use them.

What what? There have been book examples of a non-Jedi using a lightsabre in regular life? Does anyone know of any reference to lightsabres being used regularly by galactic citizens in the SW universe?

I always wondered why they didn't put short bladed lightsabres on the ends of rifles, to be activated when a soldier or Stormtrooper found himself in a melee combat situation--a lightsabre bayonett. They would have been useful at Endor, I think, and in situations like a boarding where fighting takes place in confined corridors.

They'd also make a great demolition weapon. Someone slams a blast door in your face? Use a couple of lightsabres to slice it open. Wanna bring a building down? Send in a droid with a lightsabre to cut the support beams. Et cetera.

Lightsabers are easy to build in that they can be constructed with relatively common materials. Lightsabers, however, require substantial skill to construct. They must be precisely adjusted, which generally requires the Force, or they can be extremely dangerous. Also, many lightsabers were destroyed during the Great Jedi Purge (when the Emperor first took power). The others were hidden away, and many have been lost to time.

I would say that the simplest explanation would be that very few people are able to use them effectively. You would probably need to be a Jedi to be able to anticipate where blaster shots will go, so not every Joe soldier would find use for it.

corporial wrote:I would say that the simplest explanation would be that very few people are able to use them effectively. You would probably need to be a Jedi to be able to anticipate where blaster shots will go, so not every Joe soldier would find use for it.

Obviously for things like that you would need to be a Jedi or similar, but it would not require a Jedi to use such a weapon in simple melee combat, particularly since the weapons are so easily concealed (ref. BFC), that they can be smuggled easily onto worlds that generally forbid weapons. I think that my explanation, that they require considerable skill to construct if not exotic equipment, is the most likely.

corporial wrote:I would say that the simplest explanation would be that very few people are able to use them effectively. You would probably need to be a Jedi to be able to anticipate where blaster shots will go, so not every Joe soldier would find use for it.

Bah. If you're a Joe in a bar, and a Gamorrean comes at you swinging a metal axe, you don't need Jedi reflexes to draw the sabre, ignite it, and cut yourself some pork chops.

No one's talking about blocking blaster shots. The lightsabre would be a good secondary weapon in melee situations. Me, even with a lightsabre, I'd still have a blaster where my right hand could draw it.

What may have happened is the Jedi put pressure on the Senate to outlaw them for use by non-Jedi. This would fit in their typical arrogance.

Given the fact that it appears that virtually every small, personal weapon imaginable appears to be available to the average person in both the Old Republic and the Empire, this seems unlikely.

Also, in the ANH novelization, didn't Obi-Wan say something about lightsabres still being in common use in a number of systems?

I personally would NOT want to carry a lightsabre without either force-assisted reflexes, or years of training. These things are very, very difficult to wield, being virtually massless. Not being careful with a lightsabre could easily lose you a limb.

According to Shadow Hunter, after the last great Sith Rebellion (with Bane, not Kun), the Jedi concealed the method of making lightsabres. If you could get your hands on one, it would be easy enough to reverse engineer, but how often are you going to get your hands on a lightsabre?

Lagmonster wrote:

Crazy_Vasey wrote:If the cops trying to use them in Conquest (or was it Rebirth?) are anything to go by then it's a good thing that people don't use them.

What what? There have been book examples of a non-Jedi using a lightsabre in regular life? Does anyone know of any reference to lightsabres being used regularly by galactic citizens in the SW universe?

Yes. ANH novelization, where Ben indicates that lightsabers were once widely used throughout the Galaxy - "still are, in some parts".

I personally would NOT want to carry a lightsabre without either force-assisted reflexes, or years of training. These things are very, very difficult to wield, being virtually massless. Not being careful with a lightsabre could easily lose you a limb.

But a lightdagger would not have this problem. The short blade would not be in danger of contacting your legs or catching you on the backstroke. In short, I think Lagmonster has a valid question... and a tricky one to answer.

Lagmonster wrote:

Crazy_Vasey wrote:If the cops trying to use them in Conquest (or was it Rebirth?) are anything to go by then it's a good thing that people don't use them.

What what? There have been book examples of a non-Jedi using a lightsabre in regular life? Does anyone know of any reference to lightsabres being used regularly by galactic citizens in the SW universe?

It's been a while but I'll try and answer. They confiscated them off a couple of teenage Jedi (Anakin and Tahiri) when they arrested them. When the Jedi escaped they found two policeman trying to fight with them as the rest egged them on.

They weren't very successful, they were cutting up chairs and tables and all sorts trying to hit each other, Very clumsy.

According to Shadow Hunter, after the last great Sith Rebellion (with Bane, not Kun), the Jedi concealed the method of making lightsabres. If you could get your hands on one, it would be easy enough to reverse engineer, but how often are you going to get your hands on a lightsabre?

It's doubtful that the Jedi could have concealed the method for thousands of years. During the early days of the Industrial Revolution, the British government attempted to keep new industrial technologies from leaving England, but did not succeed. Given the fairly free flow of information throughout the galaxy - the Rebels were able to get DEATH STAR plans, for Christ's sake - this theory seems unlikely.

I just think that the manufacture of the weapons requires great skill, and that it has nothing to do with the processes used. Note the abundance of holocrons before the Purge. All of those had instructions on how to build lightsabers, and many of them got out of the Jedi Temple (etc.), but only a few lightsabers can be constructed due to the relative lack of people with sufficient skill to cosntruct the weapons.

Master of Ossus wrote:Only a few lightsabers can be constructed due to the relative lack of people with sufficient skill to cosntruct the weapons.

Now this argument, I've seen a few times, and I don't get it. Why wouldn't they be able to build a machine capable of handling the parts necessary to build one? Say a human isn't dexterous enough without the force. Right, fine. This is a society that has members who regularly build, repair, and make use of equally or more impressive technologies than lightsabres. I'm sure that 'not enough dexterity' isn't it.

Durran Korr wrote:

According to Shadow Hunter, after the last great Sith Rebellion (with Bane, not Kun), the Jedi concealed the method of making lightsabres. If you could get your hands on one, it would be easy enough to reverse engineer, but how often are you going to get your hands on a lightsabre?

It's doubtful that the Jedi could have concealed the method for thousands of years. During the early days of the Industrial Revolution, the British government attempted to keep new industrial technologies from leaving England, but did not succeed. Given the fairly free flow of information throughout the galaxy - the Rebels were able to get DEATH STAR plans, for Christ's sake - this theory seems unlikely.

And yet it is what happened.

It's not that an extreme idea. For example, only a few people in the world now know how to properly make a true katanna because the technique was not shared with outsiders. We also lost "Greek Fire" because the Byzantines kept it that well concealed.

It's not that an extreme idea. For example, only a few people in the world now know how to properly make a true katanna because the technique was not shared with outsiders. We also lost "Greek Fire" because the Byzantines kept it that well concealed.

But lightsabers remained in use for thousands of years; Greek Fire and Katanas are no longer in use today. Plus Greek Fire and the Katana are relics of a very different time, when information did not flow as quickly or as freely as it obviously does in the SW universe. Given the fact that there are so many Jedi during the time of the OR, isn't it a possibility that _one_ would leak the plans for a lightsaber to the highest bidder? Perhaps a failed Padawan?

Durran Korr wrote:But lightsabers remained in use for thousands of years; Greek Fire and Katanas are no longer in use today. Plus Greek Fire and the Katana are relics of a very different time, when information did not flow as quickly or as freely as it obviously does in the SW universe. Given the fact that there are so many Jedi during the time of the OR, isn't it a possibility that _one_ would leak the plans for a lightsaber to the highest bidder? Perhaps a failed Padawan?

By and large, neither were lightsabres. And 10,000 out of the millions of trillions in a galaxy is not very much, so the tech is really rare. And anyone who leaves the Jedi order has to give up their lightsabre.

Look, this is really kind of pointless. What you think should have occured is all well and good, but we have statements telling us something else happened.

No, we have contradictory statements; Obi-Wan Kenobi clearly states in the ANH novelization that lightsabres are still in use in some parts of the galaxy. Granted, this may have changed with the advent of the Empire, with Obi-Wan being unaware of the change, but the fact that Obi-Wan knew of places where lightsabres were still in use at some point during his life in the Old Republic directly contradicts the statements put forth in Shadow Hunter. So no, it isn't pointless.

I think that part of the scarcity of lightsabers is reflected in Han's attitude. "Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a blaster at your side kid." I think that there is simply too much effort involved in the use of lightsabers that make blasters far more attractive. Lightsabers are not so easy to make when one considers that part of passing your trials for knighthood is construction of your own saber. The force must be used to properly attune the crystal. And there is a concern about self wounding. A lightsaber can only be properly wielded by a jedi, because the force helps him fight with a weapon that has essentially no mass and whose real potential can only be realized by a force user.

Think about how clumsy Luke looked using his lightsaber in ANH, and he certainly never activated it while he was on the DS, he relied solely on his blaster because it was far easier. In ESB he uses it, but still keeps a blaster handy. It is only until ROTJ that Luke forgoes all weapons save his lightsaber and that is after he has achieved knighthood and could do all the things a Jedi can do with a lightsaber (eg, reflect or deflect blaster bolts.)

It takes a lifetime of training to wield it wothout killing yourself and the force to make you truly deadly with the thing. Compare it to a blaster or vibro blade and you see that in the end, at least to me, the negatives outweigh the positives for non Jedi to wield Lightsabers.

It should be noted however that GL originally intended the lightsabers to be used by everyone, including stormtroopers as a back up melee weapon. How cool would that have been??

Wow, very well said Stravo.

Stravo wrote:Lightsabers are not so easy to make when one considers that part of passing your trials for knighthood is construction of your own saber. The force must be used to properly attune the crystal. And there is a concern about self wounding. A lightsaber can only be properly wielded by a jedi, because the force helps him fight with a weapon that has essentially no mass and whose real potential can only be realized by a force user.

Okay, point 1) The force must be used to properly attune the crystal (emphasis mine). Why is that so? Where is that written?

2) Okay, this whole 'jedi get the most out of it' isn't a factor in choosing to wield a lightsabre over, say, a giant axe or force pike. A professional stunt driver gets the most out of a car, but that doesn't mean a normal person can't use one effectively. Even if the blade is massless (and they don't move like it is), that doesn't really complicate matters as much as you think. I grant you can't use it with the finesse and delicacy as a Jedi, but how much danger of self-wounding do you think you'd be in if you were up against an angry bar patron with a chair when you have a lightsabre?