Lord Vitiate vs Darth Sidious (RotS)

[Luke Skywalker]

Ever since the release of the Revan novel, there has been raving about Lord Vitiate possibly taking over Palpatine's mantle as the most powerful sith lord in the mythos. Some even have argued that he could defeat Dark Empire I-can-tear-apart-fleets-and-ravish-planets Sidious, or even Luke Skywalker in his prime.

Location: Senate Pod Chamber (where Yoda and Sidious dueled)

Round 1: Lightsaber duel, only passive Force powers allowed.
Round 2: Force Fight
Round 3: All out

Personally, I'd still put RotS Sidious above the sith Emperor. There are various sources, for one, quantifying Sidious as the "most powerful sith lord of all time". Breaking SoD, one could dismiss these as having been created prior to the conception of Vitiate. But even the Darth Plageuis novel specifies that Plageuis was the most powerful sith lord of all time, the obvious rationalization being that Plageuis was the most powerful in history until Sidious. Keeping with SoD, this would put Sidious at 1 and Plageuis at 2 among only sith.

Furthermore, Vitiate's feats, while very impressive (admittingly, going by feats alone, Vitiate defeats all incarnations of Sidious in the Force contest until TUF), are severely overhyped. Most of his mind domination feats involved rituals that would be impractical in a fight. In actual combat, He was disarmed by Meetra (the Exile), albeit by suprise and Scourge noted that Meetra could have killed Vitiate had she not insinctually defended Revan., whereas Palpatine defeated three of the greatest swordsmen in the Order within a matter of seconds.

[Lord Revan]

do we have any real data on how good the Sith Emperor (to use Lord Vitiate's prefered title) is in a one on one fight?

EDIT:the Emperor seemed to prefer to work thru avatars or minions as from what I've read/heard.

[Darth Fanboy]

Naga Sadow blew up stars. Perhaps that's an oversimplification, but he did it along with other feats that are pretty fucking insane compared to what non-clone original flavor Palpatine accomplished.

So if you're going to try and judge the power of Sith Lords based on their most impressive individual feats you have to include him in the discussion.

[Tiriol]

Naga Sadow blew up stars. Perhaps that's an oversimplification, but he did it along with other feats that are pretty fucking insane compared to what non-clone original flavor Palpatine accomplished.

So if you're going to try and judge the power of Sith Lords based on their most impressive individual feats you have to include him in the discussion.

He used some type of Force amplifier machine to do so. Even Aleema Keto blew up a star using the same apparatus and she was nowhere near as powerful as Palpatine or her contemporaries Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma.

[Ritterin Sophia]

[He used some type of Force amplifier machine to do so. Even Aleema Keto blew up a star using the same apparatus and she was nowhere near as powerful as Palpatine or her contemporaries Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma.

It was a series of Force enhancing crystal built into the Deriphan-class Battlecruiser Corsair, you are correct in asserting they didn't do it of their own power.

As for Vitiate's abilities he's a step below Dark Empire wankatine in his abilities: At age ten he used his powers to casually mindwiped his father who was the ruling Sith Lord of the planet they were on, by the end of the Great Hyperspace War he drained the life and power of hundreds of Sith Lords to give himself immortality, he's quite adept at essence transfer.

I'd say RotS Palpatine loses this, but it'd be a trivial fight for Wankatine.

[Lord Revan]

[He used some type of Force amplifier machine to do so. Even Aleema Keto blew up a star using the same apparatus and she was nowhere near as powerful as Palpatine or her contemporaries Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma.

It was a series of Force enhancing crystal built into the Deriphan-class Battlecruiser Corsair, you are correct in asserting they didn't do it of their own power.

As for Vitiate's abilities he's a step below Dark Empire wankatine in his abilities: At age ten he used his powers to casually mindwiped his father who was the ruling Sith Lord of the planet they were on, by the end of the Great Hyperspace War he drained the life and power of hundreds of Sith Lords to give himself immortality, he's quite adept at essence transfer.

I'd say RotS Palpatine loses this, but it'd be a trivial fight for Wankatine.

Spoiler

doesn't the player Jedi Knight beat Vitiate in 1 on 1 fight (or close)?

Also how much of these powers does Vitiate have avaible in combat and how good are Vitiate's dueling skills without his without a dout powerfull force abilities?

[Luke Skywalker]

Naga Sadow blew up stars. Perhaps that's an oversimplification, but he did it along with other feats that are pretty fucking insane compared to what non-clone original flavor Palpatine accomplished.

So if you're going to try and judge the power of Sith Lords based on their most impressive individual feats you have to include him in the discussion.

K J Anderson:

"No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine."
On TFN.net, official response to the strongest Sith: "Palpatine at his peak."

Blowing up stars was done through an ancient sith artifact/ritual. You might as well include Tarkin for blowing up Alderaan.

As for Vitiate's abilities he's a step below Dark Empire wankatine in his abilities: At age ten he used his powers to casually mindwiped his father who was the ruling Sith Lord of the planet they were on, by the end of the Great Hyperspace War he drained the life and power of hundreds of Sith Lords to give himself immortality, he's quite adept at essence transfer.

Nyriss herself admits that this is all just legend and rumour. If he really did dominate so many sith lords' minds and kill them, that begs the question as to how anybody knows that it actually happened. Sure, the planet was doubtlessly drained of the Force (through a Force ritual rather imapplicable in a fight), but nothing suggests that Vitiate actually overpowered the minds of hundreds of sith. For all we know, he could have parked a ship in orbit and bombed them the moment they landed.

[Lord Revan]

tbh manipulating several powerfull darkside users isn't nesserly a major feat, Lord Kaan was able to able do it without too much effort (it was in fact the main source of his power as de facto leader of the brotherhood of darkness), how ever Lord Kaan's abilities weren't perfect there were people too strong willed for him to manipulate (Darth Bane for example).

tbh for this discussion we need feats that can be performed in combat without major prep time, so Sidious and Vitiate would get force lightning and similar abilities but anything that needs the users to stop fighting and meditate for it to work is out of the questions (as the men wouldn't be afraid to kill the opponent while he's not focusing on the fight).

[Luke Skywalker]

tbh manipulating several powerfull darkside users isn't nesserly a major feat, Lord Kaan was able to able do it without too much effort (it was in fact the main source of his power as de facto leader of the brotherhood of darkness), how ever Lord Kaan's abilities weren't perfect there were people too strong willed for him to manipulate (Darth Bane for example).

Well, to be fair, if we assume Nyriss's legend to be correct, literally enslaving the minds of hundreds of powerful sith lords (read: not the weaklings of the brotherhood) is certainly more impressive than subtly manipulating some, as much with politics as with the Force. Especially when said manipulation was weak enough so that a sith apprentice saw through his deception.

What is certain is that Vitiate enslaved pre-KotoR Revan and Malak without even rising from his chair, which alone makes him the most impressive telepath in the mythos. Yet it certainly would be ineffective against Sidious, given that Revan in his prime, who is canonically weaker still than Sidious, resisted it without any noticeable difficulty.

[Ritterin Sophia]

If he really did dominate so many sith lords' minds

Who said he did? I certainly didn't say anything to imply it. I said that he mindwiped a well-established Sith Lord at ten and at the end of Hyperspace War he drained the life and power of hundreds of Sith Lords to bolster his own, nothing about mindfucking the lot of them. Perhaps your reading capabilities need some work.

tbh manipulating several powerfull darkside users isn't nesserly a major feat, Lord Kaan was able to able do it without too much effort (it was in fact the main source of his power as de facto leader of the brotherhood of darkness), how ever Lord Kaan's abilities weren't perfect there were people too strong willed for him to manipulate (Darth Bane for example).

With obvious exceptions Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness was not particularly impressive except in sheer size.

[Lord Revan]

I know Lord Kaan was one of the if not the weakest of the ruling Sith Lords and rest of the brotherhood wasn't any better that was kind of part of my point, if someone as weak as Lord Kaan could manipulate (thru the force) several Sith lords of about his own power level with minimal effort, it cannot be major feat of strength as far as force powers go.

and tbh the question isn't if did do the drain of his homeworld we all know he did, but rather the question is how much of that power can he call to his use during combat.

[Luke Skywalker]

If he really did dominate so many sith lords' minds

Who said he did? I certainly didn't say anything to imply it. I said that he mindwiped a well-established Sith Lord at ten and at the end of Hyperspace War he drained the life and power of hundreds of Sith Lords to bolster his own, nothing about mindfucking the lot of them. Perhaps your reading capabilities need some work.

I cannot decide whether the benefit of the doubt would go to your reading capabilities being horribly overstated, or it being that you're simply BS'ing and got your facts from wikipedia.

"Once they arrived on Nathema, they quickly fell under Lord Vitiate's control. He dominated their minds, crushed their resistance. He turned them into slaves of his will, forcing them to participate in the most complex ritual of Sith sorcery ever attempted." - pg 155, hardcover version.

I know Lord Kaan was one of the if not the weakest of the ruling Sith Lords and rest of the brotherhood wasn't any better that was kind of part of my point, if someone as weak as Lord Kaan could manipulate (thru the force) several Sith lords of about his own power level with minimal effort, it cannot be major feat of strength as far as force powers go.

As I recall, Bane did concede that, in individual power, Kaan was no weakling (it went something like "Kane was not weak", in PoD). He was powerful enough to direct the thought bomb; and sith alchemy is stated to be reserved for only the most powerful sith. He is a pathetic weakling compared to Sidious/Yoda/Luke or probably even Obi Wan, but he's no pushover.

[Darth Fanboy]

K J Anderson:(snip)

Kevin J Anderson is so goddamned stupid he can only count to 21 if he's naked from the waist down. If he were to say in one of his books that 2+2=4, I would be so shocked that he got something right that I would briefly consider that the answer must actually be 5.

[Darth Fanboy]

He used some type of Force amplifier machine to do so. Even Aleema Keto blew up a star using the same apparatus and she was nowhere near as powerful as Palpatine or her contemporaries Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma.

The point was that if we're going to be forced to try and quantify "power" based on individual achievements, there are other impressive things that have been done also, and that it would take more than that to decide the power of an individual. Since I know jack shit about Vitiate or his Sith Empire i'm not going to get too deeply involved in the discussion.

[Luke Skywalker]

K J Anderson:(snip)

Kevin J Anderson is so goddamned stupid he can only count to 21 if he's naked from the waist down. If he were to say in one of his books that 2+2=4, I would be so shocked that he got something right that I would briefly consider that the answer must actually be 5.

Am I missing something here? Isn't Anderson the author who created Kun?

The point was that if we're going to be forced to try and quantify "power" based on individual achievements,

How else are you supposed to quantify the power of an individual, exactly? With non individual prowess? And how is blowing up a star with an ancient artifact representative of individual power? Is Tarkin the most individually powerful being in the canon because he destroyed Alderaan?

there are other impressive things that have been done also, and that it would take more than that to decide the power of an individual.

More than feats to quantify power? Like what? Yes, there are acolytes and statements, and in this category, Palpatine is without question the most powerful sith lord in the mythos, and likely the second most powerful being on record barring Sekot and Abeloth.

What I was stating earlier, is that Lord Vitiate's raw Force feats are unrivaled until TUF Palpatine. Actually, that is still very stretchy; it isn't until the reborn Palpatine that Vitiate's feats are outdone. I suppose that Nihilus TK'ing his starship out of a mass shadow generator would be comparable, but we have no idea as to the time duration of the event, and he was being amped by a DS nexus.

[Lord Revan]

for the purposes of this debate the best way to quanify powers is to use the Sith Lord's in combat feats (like Palpatine throwing those senate pods) as those generally give us the best gauge as to what kind of power these Sith Lords can summon to their use at moments notice (opposed to during a ritual that may last anything from minutes to days)

[Darth Yan]

Kun had a somewhat compelling backstory when properly fleshed out, and I liked his work with Ulic. The way that he saved Sylvar from walking his path (forcing her to face that she was becoming like him) and the fact that he and Exar were actually smart (they do throw a treacherous minion under a bus but in a way that ensures that she still helps the cause, and the way that Ulic pragmatically keeps mandalore around in a way that doesn't make him resentful (allowing him to keep overall command with the condition that he take orders from ulic from time to time) while giving him leeway was genuinely intelligent.

[Luke Skywalker]

for the purposes of this debate the best way to quanify powers is to use the Sith Lord's in combat feats (like Palpatine throwing those senate pods) as those generally give us the best gauge as to what kind of power these Sith Lords can summon to their use at moments notice (opposed to during a ritual that may last anything from minutes to days)

To be fair, Vitiate did dominate the minds of pre KotOR Revan and Malak, in combat, without rising from his chair. Nothing proves that it would have any effect on what is canonically the most powerful sith lord of all time, but still. If we just go by combat feats, then in a Force contest, Sidious during RotS loses to quite a handful of contestants. Yet his kill-three-of-the-most-celebrated-swordsmen-in-the-Order-in-five-seconds feat is still more impressive than being disarmed by the Exile.

[Scrib]

I don't know why Sidious is considered the most powerful Sith Lord. He was certainly the most successful but that doesn't necessarily mean powerful. I mean, wasn't the whole point of the Rule of Two to abandon brute force and focus on deception?

[avatarxprime]

Although Sidious didn't do anything super impressive in the movies (in the exploding a star vein that is), his feats in the EU have greatly expanded the level of power that guy can throw around. Just as an example, it's assumed that he was mentally influencing (using the dark side version of Jedi Battle Meditation) the entire Imperial Armed Forces essentially from Day 1. There are also the Force Storms referenced earlier in the thread that Palpatine created, which were capable of eating entire fleets and could be created lightyears away from him. Most of the stupidly powerful feats Palpatine has accomplished require various rare dark side artifacts for anyone else to even think of doing, hence him being considered the most powerful ever.

[Scrib]

I know. I just don't know why writers need him to be the most powerful. But I guess this was before we found out how he became Emperor so it was as good a guess as any that he used brute force.

[Lord Revan]

well the way Sith Order works he really can't be a total push over in a fight (if he was Maul, Tyranus or Vader would have killed him and taken his place), or be that weak in raw power, basically if the apprentice ever becomes more powerfull then the master, he/she kills the master and takes his/her place, this is both the main strength and the main weakness of the Sith Order.

[Luke Skywalker]

I don't know why Sidious is considered the most powerful Sith Lord. He was certainly the most successful but that doesn't necessarily mean powerful. I mean, wasn't the whole point of the Rule of Two to abandon brute force and focus on deception?

On quite the contrary, Darth Sidious has been stated to be the most powerful sith lord by multiple sources. Just one of them:

“Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.” (Vader: the Ultimate Guide, page 19)

Others are more fallible, being from in universe sources such as Vader himself:

“The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course [that the Rebel Alliance would be troublesome]; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith who had ever existed.” (Death Star, page 76)

[Lord Revan]

something to consider for those wondering if Darth Sidious was that powerfull

Peace is a lie there's only passion
thru passion I gain strenght
thru strenght I gain power
thru power I gain victory
thru victory my chains are broken
the force shall set me free

nothing there says that strenght must mean physical strenght and the sith lords of Darth Bane's order weren't the only ones using cunning and trickery to achive their goals (though they were the most prominent), lord/Darth Zash is a good example of pre-bane sith lord using manipulation to achive the intended goal Spoiler

she failed but that's due to elements she didn't predict and not due her manipulation failing

as for the rule of two

always 2 there must be, a master and an apprentice, one to posses power and one to covet it

when you combine this with the teachings of Darth Bane, it's less "we should abanddon brute force in favor of scheming" and more "we should be more carefull and effientcient on when to use brute force and when to just work in the shadows to undermine the enemy".

one must not assume it's a black and white case of "use brute always" and "use scheming always" (this sentence is btw not directed towards anyone but rather is a reminder to not fall into that trap).

[Luke Skywalker]

nothing there says that strenght must mean physical strenght and the sith lords of Darth Bane's order weren't the only ones using cunning and trickery to achive their goals (though they were the most prominent), lord/Darth Zash is a good example of pre-bane sith lord using manipulation to achive the intended goal

Dude, have you been reading any of my responses?

“Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.” (Vader: the Ultimate Guide, page 19)

Now go ahead and claim that Darth Vader was referring to Sidious's political power, despite the context of needing his own apprentice to defeat the Emperor in a fight. Really, it's not that hard to understand that Sidious is established as the most powerful sith lord to have ever lived from a combat context.

"Yoda could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history." -- The New Essential Chronology