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Watching TPM again (in 3D!) has got be thinking about the Prequels.

When Obi Wan is imprisoned by Count Dooku, Tyrannus reveals that the Senate is under control of a Dark Lord of the Sith named Darth Sidious. After a giant battle in which the clone army lined up in a clustered formation and hoped to the Force that the Seperatists would be too stupid to destroy the entire GAR with a turbolaser strike, the Jedi vowed to look for the second sith lord.

Now, they realized that Dooku's right hand man, Jango Fett, was the template for their army. But that aside, by Revenge of the Sith, the Council is extremely suspicious of Palpatine. In among the most blatantly obvious implications in cinema history, Mace Windu notes that "the dark side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor". Yes; they are looking for a man trained in the ways of the dark side, who has great control over the Senate. The Council notices that the Chancellor is gaining more and more control over the Senate, and that he is surrounded by the dark side. Yet Windu is genuienly surprised by Anakin's revelation.

Of course, they send Anakin to spy on Palpatine, even when they have security holograms of the Chancellor's office in the Jedi temple. You know, pretty darn incriminating evidence that they could have brought before the Senate. The Jedi Purge could have been prevented, if one of the two had occured:

1. Mace Windu had sent a high priority message warning Jedi that Palpatine was Darth Sidious before he went in to arrest him, or have otherwise had a failsafe in the case that he failed.

2. Mace Windu had killed Sidious immediately instead of gloating and raising his lightsaber dramatically to show us how badass he is.

And then, of course, Yoda could have had a significantly improved chance of defeating...

I think that part of the point is that the Jedi are stupid and arrogant. The prequels have so many problems that this doesn't come across at all, but I think that this was part of it, especially when you consider the political analogies of the Star Wars movies. The OT, especially in the ANH movie and novel, presents the Emperor as essentially Richard Nixon- a corrupt tyrant erasing the last vestige of democracy. Lucas has admitted to this in interviews. Then, in the prequels, we have (especially in Episodes II and III), George W. Bush as the inspiration for Palpatine. So Palpatine thus comes to power through a failure of the public/Jedi to stop him. This was probably inevitable to maintain the overall inspiration, but I think that Lucas' personal disgust with the Bush administration colored the scripts. Lucas has said words to these effect in various interviews about the prequels as well, but they generally are ignored because the prequels are of such low quality that we must believe that they were made by an uncaring buffoon without any subtext to be found.

Luke Skywalker wrote:Watching TPM again (in 3D!) has got be thinking about the Prequels.

When Obi Wan is imprisoned by Count Dooku, Tyrannus reveals that the Senate is under control of a Dark Lord of the Sith named Darth Sidious. After a giant battle in which the clone army lined up in a clustered formation and hoped to the Force that the Seperatists would be too stupid to destroy the entire GAR with a turbolaser strike, the Jedi vowed to look for the second sith lord.

I'm sure the Jedi were operating under the assumption that Dooku's story was disinformation. I mean, they knew they had a Sith infestation, and were looking for him in the go-between novel that ends right at the start of RotS, but they just found out that Dooku was actively working against the Jedi and the Republic, and to boot he was with the Sith, so assuming his information was false is a reasonable explanation. Off screen, they were investigating it but in the conversation at the end of AotC, Yoda and Mace pretty much say you can't trust what Dooku said, he's a lying piece of Sith now.

As far as battle tactics of the GAR, you did notice those huge assualt ships landing right? The ones that must have punched their way through any orbital defenses the Geonosians must have had? In fact, I do vaguely remember the novel mentioning a battle in orbit before the ships landed. Either the assualt ships neutralized the threat of a counter attack like that, or perhaps their shields were acting like an ad hoc theater shield for the ground troops.

Or perhaps the commanders just considered it an acceptable risk for a TRAP/NEO mission.

Now, they realized that Dooku's right hand man, Jango Fett, was the template for their army.

The GAR being in the republic is kind of a stretch of SOD, but Jango as a factor has little to do with it. For all the Republic or the Jedi know, he was used 10 years ago as the templet. He's a gun for hire, not to far a stretch to think he serves a couple masters.

But that aside, by Revenge of the Sith, the Council is extremely suspicious of Palpatine. In among the most blatantly obvious implications in cinema history, Mace Windu notes that "the dark side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor". Yes; they are looking for a man trained in the ways of the dark side, who has great control over the Senate. The Council notices that the Chancellor is gaining more and more control over the Senate, and that he is surrounded by the dark side. Yet Windu is genuienly surprised by Anakin's revelation.

Look, a major theme of the movie is the corruption of the Republic and the stagnation of the Jedi. The Jedi are so set in their ways that major changes in the system are totally outside their vision. I'm one of the ones who think the 'Shroud of the Darkside' isn't some Sith spell cast at 5 manna a sec, rather the Force making a blank spot on what is coming so that it cannot be avoided. The arrogance of the Jedi blinds them similarly to what is coming. The very idea that the Republic could fall is alien to them. The idea that the Sith are back in force and have already infiltrated the Republic to such an extent never entered their minds.

That arrogance is displayed again when Mace went to the Senate and with his lightsaber drawn, tried to arrest Palpatine. Can you imagine the FBI, guns drawn, going into the Oval Office to arrest the President of the United States? Even if POTUS was guilty of XY or Z, it would be seen as a coup by the Justice Department. That's how it was probably seen in universe. We the viewer know Palpy is a shit stain, but in universe, that kind of thing would just make most people line up behind Palpy in demolishing the Jedi Order.

Of course, they send Anakin to spy on Palpatine, even when they have security holograms of the Chancellor's office in the Jedi temple. You know, pretty darn incriminating evidence that they could have brought before the Senate. The Jedi Purge could have been prevented, if one of the two had occured:

1. Mace Windu had sent a high priority message warning Jedi that Palpatine was Darth Sidious before he went in to arrest him, or have otherwise had a failsafe in the case that he failed.

Can't really argue against that, makes sense. Altough, he did take a bunch of jedi masters with him to arrest Palpy. A move that in just about anything else would mean a successful mission.

2. Mace Windu had killed Sidious immediately instead of gloating and raising his lightsaber dramatically to show us how badass he is.

Oh come on, it's a movie, gotta have your monologues.

And then, of course, Yoda could have had a significantly improved chance of defeating...

Yoda losing to Palpy is the culmination of everything I typed above. It's spelled out pretty solidly in the novel as well. Yoda...just...didn't...have...it. The Sith had changed, evolved, improved. Yoda had trained the current Order to be just like the Order that trained him almost a thousand years ago. Not only were they fighting the 'last war', they were fighting the war a thousand years past, while the Sith were preparing to fight a new war in a new way. Yoda realized that this disaster was going to happen, nothing could stop it, they the Jedi lost before it was begun. To his credit, Yoda switched gears immediately and dropped the 'old ways' and started moving on.

Knife wrote:
I'm sure the Jedi were operating under the assumption that Dooku's story was disinformation. I mean, they knew they had a Sith infestation, and were looking for him in the go-between novel that ends right at the start of RotS, but they just found out that Dooku was actively working against the Jedi and the Republic, and to boot he was with the Sith, so assuming his information was false is a reasonable explanation. Off screen, they were investigating it but in the conversation at the end of AotC, Yoda and Mace pretty much say you can't trust what Dooku said, he's a lying piece of Sith now.

As I recall, in the ending discussion scene in the Jedi Temple in AotC Windu, although skeptical, suggests that they should “keep a closer eye on the Senate”. Ie, they did not dismiss it as a definite lie. When Anakin reveals Palpatine's identity to Windu, he calls him the "one we've been looking for".

And if they did decide to disregard Dooku's warning...well, then that makes them even bigger morons.

As far as battle tactics of the GAR, you did notice those huge assualt ships landing right? The ones that must have punched their way through any orbital defenses the Geonosians must have had? In fact, I do vaguely remember the novel mentioning a battle in orbit before the ships landed. Either the assualt ships neutralized the threat of a counter attack like that, or perhaps their shields were acting like an ad hoc theater shield for the ground troops.

Which obviously wouldn’t work. Even if they outnumbered and outgunned the Seperatists in space by a ten to one margin; which they probably did, all that it takes is a single turbolaser bolt, or nuclear weapon, or anything, to hit the Republic ground army, and they all die. Or a single Seperatist ground turbolaser emplacement, or a single proton-torpedo armed ground vehicle. It’s not as though they would fuss over killing a few million battle droids. Moreso, they take out a good portion of the Jedi Council, including Yoda and Windu.

Really, see those giant trade federation core ships lifting off? If even one of them powered up a light turbolaser and fired it as a big fuck you to the Republic, millions of clone troopers and much of the Order's most prominent Jedi would be dead instantly. Again, the Separatists can afford to lose their army far better than the Republic can afford to lose 200 Jedi and much of the GAR.

Or perhaps the commanders just considered it an acceptable risk for a TRAP/NEO mission.

“Acceptable risk”? Literally, even if the Seperatists did not want to use orbital bombardment; maybe Sidious ordered them to let Anakin live, a single miss in the space battle above could have killed off the entire Republic army. They could have destroyed the entire GAR by accident.

If Trekkies were smart, they would bring this up more often. It is without a doubt the most concrete counter to Saxtonian calculations: Stupid Writing.

The GAR being in the republic is kind of a stretch of SOD, but Jango as a factor has little to do with it. For all the Republic or the Jedi know, he was used 10 years ago as the templet. He's a gun for hire, not to far a stretch to think he serves a couple masters.

No, but it certainly raises suspicion, especially given that Jango Fett was still working with the Kaminoians as of AotC, as he regularly stays on the planet. Yet nowhere do we ever see the Jedi doing as much as making the connection. The closest they get is their brief questioning over the possibility of the army being involved in the assassination attempts of Padme; and then they drop it. Just like how they drop the Sifo-Dyas mystery.

Look, a major theme of the movie is the corruption of the Republic and the stagnation of the Jedi. The Jedi are so set in their ways that major changes in the system are totally outside their vision. I'm one of the ones who think the 'Shroud of the Darkside' isn't some Sith spell cast at 5 manna a sec, rather the Force making a blank spot on what is coming so that it cannot be avoided. The arrogance of the Jedi blinds them similarly to what is coming. The very idea that the Republic could fall is alien to them. The idea that the Sith are back in force and have already infiltrated the Republic to such an extent never entered their minds.

There's being arrogant and stagnant, and then there's the intelligence that the Council displays in RotS. Yes, their "ability to use the Force has diminished." This does not mean that their ability to think intelligently has diminished as well. Did the Council notice their equivalent to IQ scores lowered between TPM and RotS? Because it is established that they know that the dark side surrounds the Chancellor, and it is established that they know [suspect] that the Senate is being influenced by a Sith Lord. You don't need the Force to piece this together.

Heck, I remember when my mother saw the opening scene of Revenge of the Sith, she looked at Palpatine and said "that guy looks evil."

That arrogance is displayed again when Mace went to the Senate and with his lightsaber drawn, tried to arrest Palpatine. Can you imagine the FBI, guns drawn, going into the Oval Office to arrest the President of the United States? Even if POTUS was guilty of XY or Z, it would be seen as a coup by the Justice Department. That's how it was probably seen in universe. We the viewer know Palpy is a shit stain, but in universe, that kind of thing would just make most people line up behind Palpy in demolishing the Jedi Order.

Mace was right in this regard, because wait any longer, and Order 66 would have been enacted. By that point, it would be too late to arrest him. Better detain him, then use Anakin's (a celebrated war hero) testimony and the security holograms as evidence. Take a midichlorian test. Even if the Jedi Order is discredited, it's better than letting Palpatine win.

Can't really argue against that, makes sense. Altough, he did take a bunch of jedi masters with him to arrest Palpy. A move that in just about anything else would mean a successful mission.

Surely Windu must have realized that a sith capable of clouding the minds of the entire Jedi Order, and one that Dooku, one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order's 25,000 year history, would be willing to serve, would be no weakling. In fact, Anakin told him just this. Really, there's no excuse for Windu rushing off to confront the Dark Lord of the Sith without bothering to warn the Jedi in the case that he fails. This is also one of the major plot holes in the Revan novel.

Oh come on, it's a movie, gotta have your monologues.

Of course. Usually, it is the overconfident Evil Villain that does this, not a protagonist.

Yoda losing to Palpy is the culmination of everything I typed above. It's spelled out pretty solidly in the novel as well. Yoda...just...didn't...have...it. The Sith had changed, evolved, improved. Yoda had trained the current Order to be just like the Order that trained him almost a thousand years ago. Not only were they fighting the 'last war', they were fighting the war a thousand years past, while the Sith were preparing to fight a new war in a new way. Yoda realized that this disaster was going to happen, nothing could stop it, they the Jedi lost before it was begun. To his credit, Yoda switched gears immediately and dropped the 'old ways' and started moving on.

[/quote]

Really, all of your points are extremely abstract. I'm not talking about the Orders' ability to adapt here; I'm talking about the duel itself.

First, Yoda walks slowly into Palpatine palace, making no effort to better arm himself or check for traps, and clearly attempting to look badass, as though some invisible audience were watching him, rather than saving the galaxy from the Sith. He and Palpatine exchange a few words, and the latter raises his hands, very clearly telegraphing his next move, and then launches Force lightning at Yoda, who is like "wait...he's actually attacking me? No fair!" and fails to stop it.

After putting Palpatine on his ass and making no attempt to capitalize on this, the two duel for a long time. Yoda is the slightly superior duelist, and it is heavily implied that he disarms Palpatine; when Yoda launches the pod back at Sidious and the Dark Lord loses sight of him, he has a look of fear on his eyes and fails to do the obvious thing: ignite his lightsaber, implying that he lost it. Somehow, Palpatine gets the high ground and begins to lob senate pods at Yoda, who still holds onto his lightsaber in one hand and pointlessly spins it.

Finally, he stops one of the pods and slowly spins it, rightly assuming that the Dark Lord would be too busy manically laughing to hit Yoda while he is distracted. Then, he manages to lose Sidious's line of sight, and finally has him cornered and unarmed. What does he do? He lands on the other side of the senate pod and stops, posing, and is then genuinely surprised when Sidious tries to electrocute him.

This latter part is more easily excusable simply because it is no more stupid than most action sequences in modern cinema, but from an in universe perspective, it reveals Yoda's glaring arrogance. Like, unbelievable amounts of arrogance. And don't get me wrong; I like RotS, it's IMHO the best of the prequels. But it's still filled with plot holes.

Luke Skywalker wrote: As I recall, in the ending discussion scene in the Jedi Temple in AotC Windu, although skeptical, suggests that they should “keep a closer eye on the Senate”. Ie, they did not dismiss it as a definite lie. When Anakin reveals Palpatine's identity to Windu, he calls him the "one we've been looking for".

And if they did decide to disregard Dooku's warning...well, then that makes them even bigger morons.

Or so used to trusting in the Force and being the big dog of the junkyard, the idea of a sith telling the truth is alien to them. It jives with the theme of them being stagnant and arrogant.

Which obviously wouldn’t work. Even if they outnumbered and outgunned the Seperatists in space by a ten to one margin; which they probably did, all that it takes is a single turbolaser bolt, or nuclear weapon, or anything, to hit the Republic ground army, and they all die. Or a single Seperatist ground turbolaser emplacement, or a single proton-torpedo armed ground vehicle. It’s not as though they would fuss over killing a few million battle droids. Moreso, they take out a good portion of the Jedi Council, including Yoda and Windu.

Really, see those giant trade federation core ships lifting off? If even one of them powered up a light turbolaser and fired it as a big fuck you to the Republic, millions of clone troopers and much of the Order's most prominent Jedi would be dead instantly. Again, the Separatists can afford to lose their army far better than the Republic can afford to lose 200 Jedi and much of the GAR.

This would be a standing problem for any ground combat in the Star Wars universe, that we don't see it, or don't hear of it in passing means that it is impractical in some way. Again, could be as easy as the shields of the assault ships covering the troops. And IIRC, the core ships aren't armed or something. The major weapons being on the docking arm ring thingies.

“Acceptable risk”? Literally, even if the Seperatists did not want to use orbital bombardment; maybe Sidious ordered them to let Anakin live, a single miss in the space battle above could have killed off the entire Republic army. They could have destroyed the entire GAR by accident.

LoL, you don't know that much about military operations and risk do you. A high profile Senator, and a large amount of high profile Republic officials (read Jedi Masters) being in the middle of a melee. Yeah, I'm feeling pretty good about some commander thinking the risk of losing a command by extracting high profile assets like that is ok. Hell, how many assets were thrown into the mix in ROTS when Palpy got kidnapped? All those ships that ker'sploded at the start of ROTS were 'wiped out' much like you think the GAR would have been. It was an acceptable risk to lose those ships in order to attempt to rescue the Chancellor.

If Trekkies were smart, they would bring this up more often. It is without a doubt the most concrete counter to Saxtonian calculations: Stupid Writing.

Anytime a ground force 'lands' at it's initial assembly point, there is a risk of counter attack that could devastate the assaulting force. This is a well known concept in military operations. That the GAR did this means they either have counter measures to this, or it was an acceptable risk for the high value targets on Geonosis and the VIP's to rescue.

No, but it certainly raises suspicion, especially given that Jango Fett was still working with the Kaminoians as of AotC, as he regularly stays on the planet. Yet nowhere do we ever see the Jedi doing as much as making the connection. The closest they get is their brief questioning over the possibility of the army being involved in the assassination attempts of Padme; and then they drop it. Just like how they drop the Sifo-Dyas mystery.

*sigh* the only connection is that, to the Jedi, Sifo-Dyas used the same merc that later Dooku did. I wonder how many shady people used the services of Black Water while the US was contracting them as well. Yes, yes, in the end there was something to it, Jango was in on the plot, as it were. That we, the audience, can see that doesn't mean in universe, the in's and out's of the various characters doesn't make them blind to this and being blind to it doesn't mean they are dumb.

There's being arrogant and stagnant, and then there's the intelligence that the Council displays in RotS. Yes, their "ability to use the Force has diminished." This does not mean that their ability to think intelligently has diminished as well.

Sure it does, they are used to using the Force to do things, now that is diminished. They are literally trained to do things one way, and now that way is failing them. The crutch has been kicked out from under them, of course their 'thinking' will be skewed.

Did the Council notice their equivalent to IQ scores lowered between TPM and RotS? Because it is established that they know that the dark side surrounds the Chancellor, and it is established that they know [suspect] that the Senate is being influenced by a Sith Lord. You don't need the Force to piece this together.

*shrug* I don't remember the quote about the darkside being around Palpy, but even then, you can suggest that Palpy is corrupt and thus a darkside taint. Not sure why you think darkside=sith. That said, I do believe in the novel, the Jedi were operating under the belief that the Sith were high in the government, possibly in Palpy's inner circle. It never occurred to them that the Republic had been infiltrated to the extent that it had.

Heck, I remember when my mother saw the opening scene of Revenge of the Sith, she looked at Palpatine and said "that guy looks evil."

LOL, there were plenty of scenes put in to show Palpy as 'evil' that the audience got to see and in universe characters didn't. So what.

Mace was right in this regard, because wait any longer, and Order 66 would have been enacted. By that point, it would be too late to arrest him. Better detain him, then use Anakin's (a celebrated war hero) testimony and the security holograms as evidence. Take a midichlorian test. Even if the Jedi Order is discredited, it's better than letting Palpatine win.

LOL. Palpy set it up to win no matter what. If Mace had walked into the Senate and arrested Palpy and succeeded, Mace would have been committing a coup and the Jedi would have been blamed. Hell, in the novel, there is a little scene about how Palpy recorded the encounter right up until he attacked. Mace accused him of being a Sith and Palpy simply stated that in the Republic there were laws defending people in their choice of religions. Mace was every bit as guilty as Anakin in attachments, Anakin loved Padme, and Mace loved the Republic. he was corrupt and not thinking clearly. He was advocating a coup, and Yoda even cautioned them about it.

Could he have sent out a general warning that Palpy =Sith? Sure, and it would have been smart. But, he did go after Palpy with some of the most powerful Jedi on Coruscant, that's not reckless. Now starting a coup is fairly reckless.

Surely Windu must have realized that a sith capable of clouding the minds of the entire Jedi Order, and one that Dooku, one of the most powerful Jedi in the Order's 25,000 year history, would be willing to serve, would be no weakling. In fact, Anakin told him just this. Really, there's no excuse for Windu rushing off to confront the Dark Lord of the Sith without bothering to warn the Jedi in the case that he fails. This is also one of the major plot holes in the Revan novel.

Meh, more of a plot hole I would say. Rushing off with a bunch of powerful masters isn't dumb. Anyone left behind that didn't send an alarm is the dumb part.

Of course. Usually, it is the overconfident Evil Villain that does this, not a protagonist.

*shrug*

Really, all of your points are extremely abstract. I'm not talking about the Orders' ability to adapt here; I'm talking about the duel itself.

First, Yoda walks slowly into Palpatine palace, making no effort to better arm himself or check for traps, and clearly attempting to look badass, as though some invisible audience were watching him, rather than saving the galaxy from the Sith. He and Palpatine exchange a few words, and the latter raises his hands, very clearly telegraphing his next move, and then launches Force lightning at Yoda, who is like "wait...he's actually attacking me? No fair!" and fails to stop it.

After putting Palpatine on his ass and making no attempt to capitalize on this, the two duel for a long time. Yoda is the slightly superior duelist, and it is heavily implied that he disarms Palpatine; when Yoda launches the pod back at Sidious and the Dark Lord loses sight of him, he has a look of fear on his eyes and fails to do the obvious thing: ignite his lightsaber, implying that he lost it. Somehow, Palpatine gets the high ground and begins to lob senate pods at Yoda, who still holds onto his lightsaber in one hand and pointlessly spins it.

Finally, he stops one of the pods and slowly spins it, rightly assuming that the Dark Lord would be too busy manically laughing to hit Yoda while he is distracted. Then, he manages to lose Sidious's line of sight, and finally has him cornered and unarmed. What does he do? He lands on the other side of the senate pod and stops, posing, and is then genuinely surprised when Sidious tries to electrocute him.

This latter part is more easily excusable simply because it is no more stupid than most action sequences in modern cinema, but from an in universe perspective, it reveals Yoda's glaring arrogance. Like, unbelievable amounts of arrogance. And don't get me wrong; I like RotS, it's IMHO the best of the prequels. But it's still filled with plot holes.

LOL, I'm sorry the final fight wasn't choreographed the way you would have done it, it doesn't make it a plot hole though. Yoda went in arrogant, there is that damned theme again, the avatar of the light and got his ass handed to him. He...just...didn't...have...it. I kind of find it redeeming that he acknowledges this and moves on.

As for why the Republic marches in formation- it looks better on the big screen and conjures up images of what war "should be". Contrast Hoth and Endor, where we see something closer to a naturalistic portrayal- chaotic, with only small pieces visible at any given time. What probably should have been done to transition us would be to showcase naturalistic fighting in Revenge of the Sith, to show that the Republic is, at this point, effectively the Empire.

Now, let us take a look at how the Empire befits the Vietnam-era American military-industrial complex as perceived by the political radicals Lucas was a part of. The Executor is a bigger Star Destroyer. The Second Death Star is bigger than the first. When Galactic America fails, it does it again only bigger and more wastefully. Then, too, it uses massive force against peaceful individuals (think of Alderaan as, in the final analysis, every brutal suppression of peaceful protest from Kent State on down), but falters not only against the valiant opposition (who wear cosmonaut-inspired uniforms), but against diminutive "primitives". While it may seem distasteful to think that the Rebels are stand-ins for the USSR and the Ewoks the Viet Cong/PLF, think of it in context with the monstrous actions of the US in Southeast Asia and then it will probably become more palatable, especially when you remember that the USSR was effectively the only alternative.

While costume design for the Empire is based off of Imperial Japan's military, we can see that although the Rebel Alliance becomes more diverse in the sequels (largely because of conscious decisions by Lucas), the Empire remains white male human the whole way through. The Empire is thus The Man unveiled, as brutes and tyrants with fascistic thugs to enforce order.

Well, they kind of did on Kashyak.... the Wookie world. Spread out, combined fire, defensive positions, camo armor...

We only really see that from above, with a fairly clinical disposition. I was thinking something more inspired by Vietnam War reporting- cleaned up, of course, but showcasing the disparity between the clinical, newsreel-esque AOTC ending and the true nature of war.

Bakustra wrote:We only really see that from above, with a fairly clinical disposition. I was thinking something more inspired by Vietnam War reporting- cleaned up, of course, but showcasing the disparity between the clinical, newsreel-esque AOTC ending and the true nature of war.

I agree, for my own tastes, a little more grit in the prequels would have been nice.

Knife wrote: Or so used to trusting in the Force and being the big dog of the junkyard, the idea of a sith telling the truth is alien to them. It jives with the theme of them being stagnant and arrogant.

Except that the end conversation in AotC blatantly contradicts this idea, and confirms that Windu and Yoda at the least agreed to keep a closer eye on the Senate. Anakin reveals in RotS that they have been looking for Darth Sidious in particular.

This would be a standing problem for any ground combat in the Star Wars universe, that we don't see it, or don't hear of it in passing means that it is impractical in some way.

...that's my whole fucking point.

Again, could be as easy as the shields of the assault ships covering the troops.

Oh, come on. You know that this is impossible. How could the assault ships cover up the surface area of the entire combat theater? And this does not shield the Republic army from the in-atmosphere core ships or simply from a droid tank with a proton torpedo.

And IIRC, the core ships aren't armed or something. The major weapons being on the docking arm ring thingies.

So Yoda banked everything on the hope that none of the core ships had any weapons.

LoL, you don't know that much about military operations and risk do you. A high profile Senator, and a large amount of high profile Republic officials (read Jedi Masters) being in the middle of a melee. Yeah, I'm feeling pretty good about some commander thinking the risk of losing a command by extracting high profile assets like that is ok.

No, genius, those "high profile Republic officials" made the same mistake that the army did. Windu decided to have his Jedi pose off and fight in an open arena that could have been wiped out by a single modern carpet bombing run. After they rescue the Jedi, they decide to stay and fight in large clustered formations instead of getting the hell out of there. They're incalculably lucky that not a single stray shot in the space battle above landed within a dozen kilometers of their napoleonic battle, because perhaps the highest concentration of Important People and a not insignificant portion of the GAR would have been reduced to subatomic particles within nanoseconds.

Hell, how many assets were thrown into the mix in ROTS when Palpy got kidnapped? All those ships that ker'sploded at the start of ROTS were 'wiped out' much like you think the GAR would have been. It was an acceptable risk to lose those ships in order to attempt to rescue the Chancellor.

Except that those ships had shields and armor and could fire back. None of this applies to the Jedi and clones, all of which would theoretically be instantly annhihilated, by accident, but a stray shot from a starfighter.

Anytime a ground force 'lands' at it's initial assembly point, there is a risk of counter attack that could devastate the assaulting force. This is a well known concept in military operations. That the GAR did this means they either have counter measures to this, or it was an acceptable risk for the high value targets on Geonosis and the VIP's to rescue.

This is no "risk" in the sense of the risk of shootable bombers doing strafing runs on your ground forces. This would be the equivalent of assembling a clustered, conventional army with several high profile generals and senators against an enemy with gigaton-nuclear ICBMs and the will and capacity to use them. Or walking slowly into a row of snipers.

*sigh* the only connection is that, to the Jedi, Sifo-Dyas used the same merc that later Dooku did. I wonder how many shady people used the services of Black Water while the US was contracting them as well. Yes, yes, in the end there was something to it, Jango was in on the plot, as it were. That we, the audience, can see that doesn't mean in universe, the in's and out's of the various characters doesn't make them blind to this and being blind to it doesn't mean they are dumb.

later Dooku did? Jango Fett was still working with the Kaminoans! He was training Arc troopers and still stayed in Kamino regularly. The contract was not up.

Sure it does, they are used to using the Force to do things, now that is diminished. They are literally trained to do things one way, and now that way is failing them. The crutch has been kicked out from under them, of course their 'thinking' will be skewed.

So in other words, they're complete and utter, inflexible retards.

*shrug* I don't remember the quote about the darkside being around Palpy,

Mace Windu:

"The dark side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor".

Does it ring a bell?

but even then, you can suggest that Palpy is corrupt and thus a darkside taint. Not sure why you think darkside=sith.

No, darkside = bad Force user. When they are looking for a sith with significant control over the Senate, and then find the dark side in the one person with the most control over the senate...they sit there and do nothing.

That said, I do believe in the novel, the Jedi were operating under the belief that the Sith were high in the government, possibly in Palpy's inner circle. It never occurred to them that the Republic had been infiltrated to the extent that it had.

And where did this "belief" come from? Did they simply never even consider the possibility that Palpatine was a sith lord? Despite having the most influence over the Senate out of any being in the galaxy, and despite being surrounded by the Dark Side?

LOL, there were plenty of scenes put in to show Palpy as 'evil' that the audience got to see and in universe characters didn't. So what.

Nah, it was during the crash landing at the beginning of RotS. The protagonists could see him just fine.

LOL. Palpy set it up to win no matter what.

LOL. Palpy didn't bother to delete his own security footage.

If Mace had walked into the Senate and arrested Palpy and succeeded, Mace would have been committing a coup and the Jedi would have been blamed.

Show the fucking security holograms. Take a midichlorian test.

Hell, in the novel, there is a little scene about how Palpy recorded the encounter right up until he attacked. Mace accused him of being a Sith and Palpy simply stated that in the Republic there were laws defending people in their choice of religions.

Incorrect. The sith are an outlawed organization. Read the EU.

Mace was every bit as guilty as Anakin in attachments, Anakin loved Padme, and Mace loved the Republic. he was corrupt and not thinking clearly. He was advocating a coup, and Yoda even cautioned them about it.

What are you, an imperial apologist? Mace Windu was "corrupt" for trying to dethrone the Dark Lord of the Sith?

Could he have sent out a general warning that Palpy =Sith? Sure, and it would have been smart. But, he did go after Palpy with some of the most powerful Jedi on Coruscant, that's not reckless. Now starting a coup is fairly reckless.

So what would you have done in Windu's position? Try to file a lawsuit in Galactic Court?

Meh, more of a plot hole I would say. Rushing off with a bunch of powerful masters isn't dumb. Anyone left behind that didn't send an alarm is the dumb part.

...that's my point.

*shrug*

LOL, I'm sorry the final fight wasn't choreographed the way you would have done it, it doesn't make it a plot hole though.

It has nothing to do with coreography. The coreography and music were brilliant. Yoda's supidity was not. Your idea that Sidious would have won no matter what is false. The Jedi would likely have won if they were not retarded. Even when all else has failed, Yoda still had the golden chance to kill Palpatine more than once in their fight.

Yoda went in arrogant, there is that damned theme again, the avatar of the light and got his ass handed to him. He...just...didn't...have...it. I kind of find it redeeming that he acknowledges this and moves on.

Except...that...he...did. Yoda did have it in him to defeat Palpatine; by all indications, he was still [slightly] stronger than him by this point. There is being arrogant (a characterization that is never given to Yoda in any other movie), and then there's still being arrogant, after getting your ass shocked from it, and after you have one last chance to defeat the Dark Lord of the Sith. That's being a moron.

Luke Skywalker wrote: Except that the end conversation in AotC blatantly contradicts this idea, and confirms that Windu and Yoda at the least agreed to keep a closer eye on the Senate. Anakin reveals in RotS that they have been looking for Darth Sidious in particular.

Indeed, there is a whole EU book dedicated to that particular issue. The Jedi were watching the Senate and the Chancellor, and they assumed that the Sith infiltrated Palpatine's inner circle. It never occurred to them, until the very end of the book, where a security officer finds the secret tunnel from the Senate to Sidious lair, that Palpy himself is the Sith. Too bad that dude died.

...that's my whole fucking point.

Oh, come on. You know that this is impossible. How could the assault ships cover up the surface area of the entire combat theater? And this does not shield the Republic army from the in-atmosphere core ships or simply from a droid tank with a proton torpedo.

Come on dude, think for a moment. In a universe with space ships and turbolasers, you don't think the Generals and Admirals haven't thought... Gee, a broadside from a capship could wipe out my regiment. Is there anything we can do about it or do we just never use ground troops ever? We see multiple landing ships coming in from orbit, their combined shields would be a good ad hoc defense of ground troops from orbital fire. Hell, the fact that those ships are there means they had to battle through and neutralize orbital defenses in that area, further diminishing the threat of orbital anti infantry fire. A ground strike by a gigaton level weapon by the Separatists would have wiped out their own forces as well, as well as the Geonosian factories. A scorched earth policy wasn't exactly a tactical option for them, they had lots of opportunity to escape if they wished, the Nemonians in fact did escape, as did Dooku. What you're suggesting is the same as why the US isn't using tactical nukes with artillery in Afghanistan or Iraq. You don't do that because that AOE weapon will hurt you just as much, if not more, than the enemy.

So Yoda banked everything on the hope that none of the core ships had any weapons.

Dude, you don't go to war with the notion of 'you won't get hurt, we can do this without one casualty', you go to war when the benefits outweigh the risks. At the very basic, was the risk of losing or decimating the new Clone Army worth the extraction of a high profile Senator, multiple high ranking officials such as the Jedi, and the possibility of destroying an enemy droid factory and capturing multiple high profile enemy commanders?

Hell fucking yes.

No, genius, those "high profile Republic officials" made the same mistake that the army did. Windu decided to have his Jedi pose off and fight in an open arena that could have been wiped out by a single modern carpet bombing run.

You are starting to sound silly. Why the hell would the Geonosians carpet bomb their stadium with thousands of their people in it and their King being in the area? Later, why would they carpet bomb the area with a significant amount of their own troops in the target area? Once the Republic landed, did you notice the huge amounts of Republic craft in the air? The Republic quickly established areal superiority, thus negating the chance of the Separatists to mount such a campaign to boot.

After they rescue the Jedi, they decide to stay and fight in large clustered formations instead of getting the hell out of there. They're incalculably lucky that not a single stray shot in the space battle above landed within a dozen kilometers of their napoleonic battle, because perhaps the highest concentration of Important People and a not insignificant portion of the GAR would have been reduced to subatomic particles within nanoseconds.

Whatever, so you don't like big blocks of troops. Gotcha. The Republic was establishing a beach head on an enemy planet, little groups of troops spread out over large area would have been annihilated. Once the troops landed, they started moving out and engaging the enemy, I really don't see the problem... well not any problem than any actual landing would have not had in the first place.

Except that those ships had shields and armor and could fire back. None of this applies to the Jedi and clones, all of which would theoretically be instantly annhihilated, by accident, but a stray shot from a starfighter.

So... you don't remember all the gunships, all the assualt ships, all the walking pieces of artillery? They did bring armor, shields, and the ability to fire back.

This is no "risk" in the sense of the risk of shootable bombers doing strafing runs on your ground forces.

Republic pretty much had areal superiority at that point, good luck with those bombers.

This would be the equivalent of assembling a clustered, conventional army with several high profile generals and senators against an enemy with gigaton-nuclear ICBMs and the will and capacity to use them. Or walking slowly into a row of snipers.

Happens all the time lately, and oddly enough, the US just doesn't nuke the shit out of them, causes too many problems, too risky for our own troops, and we don't want to ruin the entire area we would have to nuke.

later Dooku did? Jango Fett was still working with the Kaminoans! He was training Arc troopers and still stayed in Kamino regularly. The contract was not up.

Oh, you have a point, I just don't think it's as important as you do.

So in other words, they're complete and utter, inflexible retards.

For lack of a better word, they are human. Which means they are falable, which actually makes them better characters.

Mace Windu:

"The dark side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor".

Does it ring a bell?

No, but fair enough. I still think it tracks that the Jedi were investigating and assuming that the Sith were close to the Chancellor, not the Chancellor himself.

No, darkside = bad Force user. When they are looking for a sith with significant control over the Senate, and then find the dark side in the one person with the most control over the senate...they sit there and do nothing.

Because, you just don't arrest the President for his religion. If you do, he gets to send the army out to shoot up your temple. If you're a Jedi, it seems like a good idea, if you're the populace and the Jedi attack you're beloved Chancellor that has held the Republic together through these troubling times, you then hate the Jedi and don't blink twice when the army puts down the rebellion of spoon benders.

And where did this "belief" come from? Did they simply never even consider the possibility that Palpatine was a sith lord? Despite having the most influence over the Senate out of any being in the galaxy, and despite being surrounded by the Dark Side?

I don't actually have that book or I'd look it up. I remember they just thought Palpy was a corrupt politician who was probably being used by the Sith.

LOL. Palpy didn't bother to delete his own security footage.

Incorrect. The sith are an outlawed organization. Read the EU

From an except of the novel that is prefaced with... the following is a transcript of an audio recording presented before the Galactic Senate on the afternoon of the first Empire Day; identities of all speakers verified and confirmed by voiceprint analysis...

Rots hardback pg 324 wrote: MACE WINDU: You're under arrest.

PALPATINE: Really, Master Windu, you cannot be serious. On what charge?

MACE WINDU: You're a Sith Lord.

PALPATINE: Am I? Even if true, that's hardly a crime. My philosophical outlook is a personal matter. In fact- the last time I read the Constitution, anyway- we have very strict laws against this type of persecution. So I ask you again: what is my alleged crime? How do you expect to justify your mutiny before the Senate? Or do you intend to arrest the Senate as well?

That was the security tapes from the Chancellors office. One of a coup. Palpatine went on further in the novel, crying treason and murder as if he was being attacked while he ruthlessly cut down two Jedi Masters.

What are you, an imperial apologist? Mace Windu was "corrupt" for trying to dethrone the Dark Lord of the Sith?

This passage from novel is before Anakin comes in to tell Mace Windu that Palpatine is Sidious...

RotS hardback pg 306-307 wrote:"Time it is to execute our plan."

"I will personally deliver the news of Grievous' death." Mace flexed his hands. "It will be up to the Chancellor to cede his emergency powers back over to the Senate."

"Forget not the existence of Sidious. Anticipate your action, he may. Masters will be necessary, if the Lord of the Sith you must face."

"I have chosen four of our best. Master Tiin, Master Kolar, and Master Fisto are all here, in the Temple."....

"on watch you have been too long, my Padawan. Rest you must."

"I will, Master. when the Republic is safe once more."....

Mace, before he knew Palpatine was a Sith, was going to arrest him and for all intents and purposes do a coup. I'm not a Imperial apologist, rather can see that the heroes don't do themselves any favors by trying to arrest the leader of the Republic with no actual evidence. This is the same Chancellor described in the beginning of the book as being beloved by the people. They guy who held the Republic together.

So what would you have done in Windu's position? Try to file a lawsuit in Galactic Court?

No, I would have collected every single piece of info about it and put it out there, once the Jedi's side of the story is out there, then go get the guy. By keeping it all hush hush, and close to the vest, then rushing over there to get him played right into his trap. He was able to show the people and the Senate how the jedi attempted a coup and then got to send the army in to route them out. The Jedi fucked themselves. To the Jedi, being a Sith is a bad thing, the people of the galaxy don't give two shits about that. Now, Sidious is responsible for the war, and the people care about that. Expose that truth, that Palpy is Sidious and he's playing both sides of the war for power and profit. The people will care about that, and then you can arrest the guy.

It has nothing to do with coreography. The coreography and music were brilliant. Yoda's supidity was not. Your idea that Sidious would have won no matter what is false. The Jedi would likely have won if they were not retarded. Even when all else has failed, Yoda still had the golden chance to kill Palpatine more than once in their fight.

Except...that...he...did. Yoda did have it in him to defeat Palpatine; by all indications, he was still [slightly] stronger than him by this point. There is being arrogant (a characterization that is never given to Yoda in any other movie), and then there's still being arrogant, after getting your ass shocked from it, and after you have one last chance to defeat the Dark Lord of the Sith. That's being a moron.

RotS hardback pg 396 wrote: It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the jedi refined into one single Jedi.

It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark. In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.

Finally, he saw the truth.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...

just-
didn't-
have it.

He'd never had it. he had lost before he started.

He had lost before he was born.

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi-

The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. how could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?

He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him. Hmmm, Yoda thought. A problem this is...

Yoda didn't have it, admitted to himself he didn't have it. He could never have won against Palpatine. Now, I think Mace would have won, if Anakin would not have come in at that time. I don't buy the notion of Palpy acting weak until Anakin came in. More like he took advantage of the situation. But Mace is slightly special in that he channels his darkness into light, instead of being just light. He could have beat Palpy dark to dark. But even then, the Sith would have won, with a very powerful dark Jedi loose on the Republic.

There was no listening device in Palpatine's office depicted in the film* of Episode III. This is a common misinterpretation of the security holo Kenobi views in the Temple. Palpatine comes to the Temple after the battle, congratulates Skywalker, and sends him on his way. It is NOT the conversation that Palpatine and Skywalker had in Palpatine's office. If it were, please note that Kenobi would not have needed to stow away with Amidala, because Palpatine told Skywalker to go to Mustafar in his office!

*(In the novel, which had a different set of events take place there, the presence and eventual destruction of such a device is a minor plot element.)

Speaking of stupidity, Kenobi and Yoda splitting up to go after the two Sith Lords was a bonehead move. Facing Anakin together, they would have mopped him up before breakfast. (And Obi-Wan's emotional attachment to Anakin would have been somewhat mitigated by Yoda being there.) Palpy still would have presented more of a challenge than Anakin, but still two is better than one in pretty much any case when you are going after *this* guy. (He just greased three Jedi masters in how many seconds, plus gave Windu almost as much as he could handle just a few hours ago?)
By the same token, the Sith were pretty foolish to stay separated as well since they had no idea how many Jedi were still alive and coming for them.

Knife wrote: Indeed, there is a whole EU book dedicated to that particular issue. The Jedi were watching the Senate and the Chancellor, and they assumed that the Sith infiltrated Palpatine's inner circle. It never occurred to them, until the very end of the book, where a security officer finds the secret tunnel from the Senate to Sidious lair, that Palpy himself is the Sith. Too bad that dude died.

How does it not occurring to them that Palpy was a sith excuse their stupidity...for not realizing that Palpy was a sith?

Come on dude, think for a moment. In a universe with space ships and turbolasers, you don't think the Generals and Admirals haven't thought... Gee, a broadside from a capship could wipe out my regiment.

Not could, would. If the enemy commander wants you dead and has a space fleet, and you have no planetary shield, you have exactly a zero percent chance of surviving. It's only because the Separatists are just as retarded as the Jedi that they did not get wiped out.

You seem to be comparing this in your head to, say, a large modern formation risking being hit by strafing runs. The chances of survival are not comparable in the slightest.

Is there anything we can do about it or do we just never use ground troops ever?

No, you just don't deploy them in clustered formations right below ships with nuclear weapons.

We see multiple landing ships coming in from orbit, their combined shields would be a good ad hoc defense of ground troops from orbital fire. Hell, the fact that those ships are there means they had to battle through and neutralize orbital defenses in that area, further diminishing the threat of orbital anti infantry fire.

No, you don't. The entire Republic fleet present combined in the most geometrically efficient manner possible would not cover 1% of the surface area under danger of attack. This is also not the bronze age; if the enemy has line of sight (and, in the case of missiles, even if he/she doesn't), your ground forces and some of the most high profile people in the Republic are dead. Even if the enemy wants them alive, they will probably kill them off by accident, unless if absolutely none of their turbolasers or torpedos ever miss.

A ground strike by a gigaton level weapon by the Separatists would have wiped out their own forces as well, as well as the Geonosian factories. A scorched earth policy wasn't exactly a tactical option for them, they had lots of opportunity to escape if they wished, the Nemonians in fact did escape, as did Dooku. What you're suggesting is the same as why the US isn't using tactical nukes with artillery in Afghanistan or Iraq. You don't do that because that AOE weapon will hurt you just as much, if not more, than the enemy.

1. The repercussions for Earth in the case of nuclear weapons being used are infinitely larger than that of using them once in a galactic civilization that regularly uses them anyway. So that's a poor analogy.

2. You may be right in saying that the Separatists would have a reason not to use WMD's. However, they also have counter reasons to use them; it depends on whether killing Yoda, Padme, much of the Jedi Council and hundreds of thousands of clone troopers is worth pissing off the geonosians, which is just a single species on a single planet, and destroying a few million battle droids of which they have quadrillions or quintillions of, depending on the source.

But we are looking at this from the PoV of Yoda, as he was apparently in charge of the battle. He was banking some of the most important assets of the Republic on the hope that the Separatists choose not to, with no failsafe in the case that he and his allies are turned into whisps of ionized gas within microseconds.

3. So do SW weapons only have two weapon dials now: overkill and underkill? Just because using nuclear level weaponry is too much doesn't mean that you couldn't at least use...like, precision turbolaser strikes or ground weapons dialed down to the yields of large conventional bombs.

4. Again, even if all of the above is waved away, the fact still remains that a single stray shot from the battle above would have killed off the entire ground army. Apparently, those turbolasers are very accurate.

Dude, you don't go to war with the notion of 'you won't get hurt, we can do this without one casualty', you go to war when the benefits outweigh the risks. At the very basic, was the risk of losing or decimating the new Clone Army worth the extraction of a high profile Senator, multiple high ranking officials such as the Jedi, and the possibility of destroying an enemy droid factory and capturing multiple high profile enemy commanders?

Hell fucking yes.

No, you are risking the high profile people by engaging in a protracted ground war, not saving them. In fact, your assessment, designed to make the answer seem obvious, actually isn't. I mean, losing the new army that is your apparent only hope to fend off the Separatists? For destroying a single factory?

But that is irrelevant. There's taking risks, and there's walking into a situation where you have literally no defense against the enemy. A single stray shot would have vaporized the entire ground army before they ever knew it, and before they would ever have time to retaliate with their SPHATs (which, strangely, never fired on enemy ground targets). There is nothing that could be done to defend against this with Yoda's battle plan, and the only requirement for the worst eventuality to occur is for the enemy to order it. If their intelligence is even marginal, the chance of failure is 100.00%.

Taking risks such as infiltrating an enemy base is different. For one, the enemy actually has to spot you, which is not a given. Then, you still have a chance of escaping. Here, the enemy has to perform no action that isn't guaranteed to succeed, and you have no chance of survival. Well, they did survive, because the CIS is full of deluded retards. Who knew. Sort of proves my point.

You are starting to sound silly. Why the hell would the Geonosians carpet bomb their stadium with thousands of their people in it and their King being in the area? Later, why would they carpet bomb the area with a significant amount of their own troops in the target area? Once the Republic landed, did you notice the huge amounts of Republic craft in the air? The Republic quickly established areal superiority, thus negating the chance of the Separatists to mount such a campaign to boot.

Firstly, the geonosians and Dooku could easily evacuate the building and then destroy it; and if they are ruthless enough, only Dooku and his lackeys need to escape.

Secondly, there is no "campaign" needed to destroy a medium sized arena. You just need one hit from a turbolaser or a torpedo, or even a laser cannon.

Whatever, so you don't like big blocks of troops. Gotcha. The Republic was establishing a beach head on an enemy planet, little groups of troops spread out over large area would have been annihilated. Once the troops landed, they started moving out and engaging the enemy, I really don't see the problem... well not any problem than any actual landing would have not had in the first place.

They "moved out" and engaged the enemy, but were still in a position so that a single turbolaser would have killed them all instantly. Mathematically, the chances of them not dying by an accidental stray bolt is incalculably small.

So... you don't remember all the gunships, all the assualt ships, all the walking pieces of artillery? They did bring armor, shields, and the ability to fire back.

How the fuck would LAAT gunships and artillery do anything when they too are vaporized with the ground army in a microsecond? Did you see them ever firing at CIS ships? Certainly not the LAATs, whose weapons were demonstrably too weak to even dent the core ships.

The assault ships do not have any means to stop a turbolaser bolt from striking the army. They would respond too late.

Republic pretty much had areal superiority at that point, good luck with those bombers.

It was a real world analogy. There would be no need for any strafing runs, there literally would only need to be a single hit from a single ship. It is impossible, even with a thousand to one odds, for the Republic to tie up all Separatist vessels so that none can divert one turbolaser to aim at the planet for a second. And even then, it would not stop stray shots. And even then, there would be no defense against those core ships from dropping a proton torpedo on their asses.

Happens all the time lately, and oddly enough, the US just doesn't nuke the shit out of them, causes too many problems, too risky for our own troops, and we don't want to ruin the entire area we would have to nuke.

Huh. I wasn't aware that the Iraqis had gigaton nuclear warheads, could deliver them accurately against moving ground targets, and were willing to cause the end of industrial civilization in doing so. The CIS has these, can deliver them on a whim from the ultimate high ground, and in a galactic civilization have no need to fear of a nuclear winter.

Oh, you have a point, I just don't think it's as important as you do.



For lack of a better word, they are human. Which means they are falable, which actually makes them better characters.

They are stupid humans/aliens. Really stupid humans/aliens.

No, but fair enough. I still think it tracks that the Jedi were investigating and assuming that the Sith were close to the Chancellor, not the Chancellor himself.

Which means that they are stupid. Which proves my point, doesn't it?

Because, you just don't arrest the President for his religion. If you do, he gets to send the army out to shoot up your temple. If you're a Jedi, it seems like a good idea, if you're the populace and the Jedi attack you're beloved Chancellor that has held the Republic together through these troubling times, you then hate the Jedi and don't blink twice when the army puts down the rebellion of spoon benders.

Um, you're misreading the topic here. We were discussing the Council's inability to figure out who Palpatine really is, not their actions when they finally did (and Anakin was such a retard that Palpatine had to bluntly tell it to his face for him to figure it out).

I don't actually have that book or I'd look it up. I remember they just thought Palpy was a corrupt politician who was probably being used by the Sith.

Right, and it does not take a genius to consider the possibility that Palpatine is the sith.

From an except of the novel that is prefaced with... the following is a transcript of an audio recording presented before the Galactic Senate on the afternoon of the first Empire Day; identities of all speakers verified and confirmed by voiceprint analysis...

Rots hardback pg 324 wrote: MACE WINDU: You're under arrest.

PALPATINE: Really, Master Windu, you cannot be serious. On what charge?

MACE WINDU: You're a Sith Lord.

PALPATINE: Am I? Even if true, that's hardly a crime. My philosophical outlook is a personal matter. In fact- the last time I read the Constitution, anyway- we have very strict laws against this type of persecution. So I ask you again: what is my alleged crime? How do you expect to justify your mutiny before the Senate? Or do you intend to arrest the Senate as well?

That was the security tapes from the Chancellors office. One of a coup. Palpatine went on further in the novel, crying treason and murder as if he was being attacked while he ruthlessly cut down two Jedi Masters.

The dialogue you quoted clearly did not occur, and contradicts the differing dialogue used by Palpatine in the same instance. Ergo, it is non-canon.

This passage from novel is before Anakin comes in to tell Mace Windu that Palpatine is Sidious...

RotS hardback pg 306-307 wrote:"Time it is to execute our plan."

"I will personally deliver the news of Grievous' death." Mace flexed his hands. "It will be up to the Chancellor to cede his emergency powers back over to the Senate."

"Forget not the existence of Sidious. Anticipate your action, he may. Masters will be necessary, if the Lord of the Sith you must face."

"I have chosen four of our best. Master Tiin, Master Kolar, and Master Fisto are all here, in the Temple."....

"on watch you have been too long, my Padawan. Rest you must."

"I will, Master. when the Republic is safe once more."....

Mace, before he knew Palpatine was a Sith, was going to arrest him and for all intents and purposes do a coup. I'm not a Imperial apologist, rather can see that the heroes don't do themselves any favors by trying to arrest the leader of the Republic with no actual evidence. This is the same Chancellor described in the beginning of the book as being beloved by the people. They guy who held the Republic together.

Wait...according to your excerpt, Yoda already knew that Palpatine was a Sith?

This just totally increases the retardation level of the Jedi by ten orders of magnitude.

No, I would have collected every single piece of info about it and put it out there, once the Jedi's side of the story is out there, then go get the guy. By keeping it all hush hush, and close to the vest, then rushing over there to get him played right into his trap. He was able to show the people and the Senate how the jedi attempted a coup and then got to send the army in to route them out. The Jedi fucked themselves. To the Jedi, being a Sith is a bad thing, the people of the galaxy don't give two shits about that. Now, Sidious is responsible for the war, and the people care about that. Expose that truth, that Palpy is Sidious and he's playing both sides of the war for power and profit. The people will care about that, and then you can arrest the guy.

So in other words, hope to the Force that Palpy will not decide to execute Order 66 in the meantime.

RotS hardback pg 396 wrote: It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the jedi refined into one single Jedi.

It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark. In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.

Finally, he saw the truth.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...

just-
didn't-
have it.

He'd never had it. he had lost before he started.

He had lost before he was born.

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi-

The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. how could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?

He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him. Hmmm, Yoda thought. A problem this is...

Yoda didn't have it, admitted to himself he didn't have it. He could never have won against Palpatine. Now, I think Mace would have won, if Anakin would not have come in at that time. I don't buy the notion of Palpy acting weak until Anakin came in. More like he took advantage of the situation. But Mace is slightly special in that he channels his darkness into light, instead of being just light. He could have beat Palpy dark to dark. But even then, the Sith would have won, with a very powerful dark Jedi loose on the Republic.

Yoda was thinking abstractly, in regards to how the sith had outsmarted and outmaneuvered the Jedi on a grand scale, which they had. It has nothing to do with the specific duel itself.

Luke Skywalker wrote: Of course, they send Anakin to spy on Palpatine, even when they have security holograms of the Chancellor's office in the Jedi temple. You know, pretty darn incriminating evidence that they could have brought before the Senate. The Jedi Purge could have been prevented, if one of the two had occured: .

What evidence is there that the Jedi had security holograms of the Chancellor's office? The scene where Obi-Wan was watching security footage was of the Jedi temple. Is it more likely that Palpatine went to visit the Jedi Temple after it was secured. Its not like politicians don't ever visit the front lines(Bush's Mission Accomplished speech)

1. Mace Windu had sent a high priority message warning Jedi that Palpatine was Darth Sidious before he went in to arrest him, or have otherwise had a failsafe in the case that he failed.[/quote]
According to the novelization he did this, at least telling Yoda and activating security at the Jedi temple. Unfortunately the Jedi hadn't accounted for Order 66 or that Anakin would have turned to the Dark Side. The rest of the Jedi presumably believed that the clones would have loyalty to them over the Chancellor which did occur in at least one case(the novel Dark Lord).

Regarding the issue of orbital bombardment, there does seem to be a rather bizarre honor code in SW that prevents the use of WMDs, even when lacking shields. Also, you seem to be implying that that was the entirety of the GAR. Even the most minimalist numbers never claim that was anywhere near the entire army. Even by the 1.2 million number the entire million were still in the final stages of training.

In addition, the problem with using orbital bombardment is that it will lead your opponents to doing the same thing in retaliation, there is a sense of self preservation among the CIS during the war on that issue until Grievous takes over and does whatever he wants. For a useful analogy, we could have used tactical nuclear weapons to kill Bin Laden but Pakistan could have done something about it with their own arsenal as well as with their political power in the region.

Besides this element, amphibious assaults are often potentially vulnerable to counter attack and bombardment, one of the reasons that Naval Gunfire Support is such an important issue for the Marines. This is the same issue for the GAR, which according to the AOTC ICS, used surgical strikes from the RAS fleet to give support and presumably neutralize enemy orbital defenses. Also Jedi were stated to have neutralized some of the orbital defenses in other sources.

Luke Skywalker wrote: Wait...according to your excerpt, Yoda already knew that Palpatine was a Sith?

This just totally increases the retardation level of the Jedi by ten orders of magnitude.

There's an "if" in Yoda's statement for a reason. He doesn't know but bring some Masters just in case he is.

Kreller1 wrote:Speaking of stupidity, Kenobi and Yoda splitting up to go after the two Sith Lords was a bonehead move. Facing Anakin together, they would have mopped him up before breakfast. (And Obi-Wan's emotional attachment to Anakin would have been somewhat mitigated by Yoda being there.) Palpy still would have presented more of a challenge than Anakin, but still two is better than one in pretty much any case when you are going after *this* guy. (He just greased three Jedi masters in how many seconds, plus gave Windu almost as much as he could handle just a few hours ago?)
By the same token, the Sith were pretty foolish to stay separated as well since they had no idea how many Jedi were still alive and coming for them.

That was raised a while back. Bringing Ob-Wan to fight Palpatine wouldn't have done much. Even if they win, there's no guarantee that Anakin would stay on Mustafar. Obi-Wan and Yoda against Anakin would have resulted in Anakin getting stomped but by the time that happens, Palpy may have gotten around to better increasing security or be on the alert from sensing the death of his apprentice.

Panzersharkcat wrote:

Kreller1 wrote:Speaking of stupidity, Kenobi and Yoda splitting up to go after the two Sith Lords was a bonehead move. Facing Anakin together, they would have mopped him up before breakfast. (And Obi-Wan's emotional attachment to Anakin would have been somewhat mitigated by Yoda being there.) Palpy still would have presented more of a challenge than Anakin, but still two is better than one in pretty much any case when you are going after *this* guy. (He just greased three Jedi masters in how many seconds, plus gave Windu almost as much as he could handle just a few hours ago?)
By the same token, the Sith were pretty foolish to stay separated as well since they had no idea how many Jedi were still alive and coming for them.

That was raised a while back. Bringing Ob-Wan to fight Palpatine wouldn't have done much. Even if they win, there's no guarantee that Anakin would stay on Mustafar. Obi-Wan and Yoda against Anakin would have resulted in Anakin getting stomped but by the time that happens, Palpy may have gotten around to better increasing security or be on the alert from sensing the death of his apprentice.

Assuming that the smart thing is for Obi-Wan and Yoda to stay together, there is still the 'Chosen One Prophecy' to consider. Perhaps rather than letting the two Jedi spank each Sith in turn, the Force itself made them go 'herp derp lets split up!' so the prophecy could be fullfilled?

That works with the numbers theory of balance. Lucas has stated it is simply the Dark Side being powerful that creates the imbalance though, so that doesn't really hold.

panzersharkcat wrote:That was raised a while back. Bringing Ob-Wan to fight Palpatine wouldn't have done much. Even if they win, there's no guarantee that Anakin would stay on Mustafar. Obi-Wan and Yoda against Anakin would have resulted in Anakin getting stomped but by the time that happens, Palpy may have gotten around to better increasing security or be on the alert from sensing the death of his apprentice.

I don't agree, Yoda and Palpatine are about evenly matched power-wise, giving Obi-Wan plenty of opportunities to strike Palpy down while he's busy taking care of his "little green friend". Besides, killing Palpatine would nip the Galactic Empire in the bud and cause his whole conspiracy to crash down hard since there is no one capable of replacing him. Getting rid of Anakin, who possesses not even a shred of political cloud or savvy whatsoever is just not that much of a priority in face of that. Splitting up was just a stupid mistake.

Although the sudden removal of the top brass of both the Republic and the Confederacy coupled with the death of most of the Jedi might result in anarchic chaos for decades to come so there's that.

Well yes, going after Palpatine together would have been the smart move. It wouldn't necessarily have worked out though - Palpatine would probably kill Kenobi just after he blasted Yoda with Force Lightning at the beginning of their encounter. He DID manage to kill three Jedi Masters within a few seconds, and they were accompanied by Mace Windu (who, unlike Yoda, actually was a match for Palpatine) - and it didn't do them much good either.

However, the objective of Yoda and Obi-Wan was to take down the Sith. In order to do that, they had to take them down simultaneously, otherwise the other one would slip back into the shadows and elude them, then train a new apprentice and the whole thing would start all over again.

At least that's what they thought - because that was the Modus Operandi of the Sith for the last thousand years. They focussed to much on the Sith as Sith, rather than considering the political and mundane power Palpatine had. They saw him as "the Sith Lord" rather than "the guy who has political control over the whole Galaxy". Their fault was in their perspective.

They didn't consider Palpatine as the Sith Lord for the same reason - they thought of the Sith as secret manipulators. Palpatine on the other hand was a highly public figure with plenty of benevolent policies, lot's of charisma etc. - all attributes they did not consider Sith-attributes.
Or in other words, the Jedi were fighting the Sith of the last war, not the current one.

By that point Anakin had been a Sith for what, a few hours? Hardly sufficient time to learn enough secrets of the Sith to potentially become a vector for Dangerous Forbidden Knowledge (TM) for the next generation, Yoda and Obi-Wan should have figured as much. Better go after Palpatine with combined forces as long as his muscle is chilling on a far away volcano planet. Also, considering how obtuse, naive and obnoxiously proudful Anakin is, I wouldn't be afraid of the possibility of him disappearing into the shadows and elude any pursuit. Just follow the whines!

Metahive wrote:By that point Anakin had been a Sith for what, a few hours? Hardly sufficient time to learn enough secrets of the Sith to potentially become a vector for Dangerous Forbidden Knowledge (TM) for the next generation, Yoda and Obi-Wan should have figured as much. Better go after Palpatine with combined forces as long as his muscle is chilling on a far away volcano planet. Also, considering how obtuse, naive and obnoxiously proudful Anakin is, I wouldn't be afraid of the possibility of him disappearing into the shadows and elude any pursuit. Just follow the whines!

We know that. Neither Obi-Wan nor Yoda do.

Metahive wrote:By that point Anakin had been a Sith for what, a few hours? Hardly sufficient time to learn enough secrets of the Sith to potentially become a vector for Dangerous Forbidden Knowledge (TM) for the next generation, Yoda and Obi-Wan should have figured as much. Better go after Palpatine with combined forces as long as his muscle is chilling on a far away volcano planet. Also, considering how obtuse, naive and obnoxiously proudful Anakin is, I wouldn't be afraid of the possibility of him disappearing into the shadows and elude any pursuit. Just follow the whines!

I agree. Go together and ice Palpatine first, and then worry about the much weaker "chosen one" after that. 2v2, (Yoda/Obi vs Palpy/Vader) now that would be a huge mess.

Havok wrote:That works with the numbers theory of balance. Lucas has stated it is simply the Dark Side being powerful that creates the imbalance though, so that doesn't really hold.

Do you actually have a source on this? The idea of Anakin fulfilling the prophecy by destroying both Jedi and Sith at the end of ROTJ by killing the Emperor and then dying works so well that I'm loath to believe that Lucas doesn't see it.