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In the original script for ROTJ, the Death Star was orbiting Kashyyyk, and it was Wookiees, not Ewoks, who helped the Rebels defeat the Empire. In this thread we discuss an alternate version of ROTJ which might have existed if Lucas stuck with his original idea. Source.

I could see a much sadder version of ROTJ, where the Wookiees are slave labor in the Death Star's construction. Instead of being captured in a net and being rescued by 3PO, they could by chance run into the Wookiee resistance, masters of guerrilla warfare who hid in tunnels and use stolen Imperial tech to rescue fellow Wookiees. The end fight would be epic! We could get some background on how Han and Chewie met.

Does anybody have an early version of the script featuring Wookiees?

Well, for one it wouldn't be the rebels getting most of the kills in the ground battle.

Wookiees are slightly more dangerous then Ewoks, and wouldn't be that annoyance that distracts the stormtroopers while rebels kill them.

on the other hand the Imperials would be probably more alert on Kashyyyk then on Endor because the natives are more dangerous, one the reasons the ewok ambush was as effective as it was, was due the imperials more or less ingnoring the ewoks

now out of verse IIRC one the reasons that draft was changed was that it would have been too expensive to make enough wookiee suits (rememeber this was about 30 years ago so no CGI extras) and hire enough tall people to play the parts (you could use kids for the Ewoks thus giving you a greater recruiting pool), even in ROTS there only about a dozen or so people in suits and the rest is CGI.

The whole Endor battle plan was a bit like the Frodo Gambit, risk the whole army on the slim chance of a hail Mary play succeeding.

For Palpy to bait the trap, he had to make the Death Star seem vulnerable without taking precutions the Rebels could accidentally find out about.

The Rebels needed to know there was a shield generator on the moon they could destroy with a commando raid and an exposed reactor to destroy inside the Death Star.

Palpy was able to conceal the redeployment of a legion of troopers on the ground, redeployment of the fleet and an operational superlaser. Would a few steel walls in the vent shafts have been that much more difficult?

Regardless of whether he turned Luke or killed him without Vader rebelling, the Death Star would still be destroyed. I would think that his original plan would still involve the destruction of the shield so that the rebels would be tempted to press the attack home despite the losses they were taking. Without the rebels relying on a Frodo Gambit, they should have turned to run.

Palpy needed to make them feel this would be a decisive battle and draw them out and commit whatever the cost because he was sick of them remaining a force in being. When an insurgency fights pitched battles, it usually gets slaughtered.

In terms of story, I understand why there needed to be a commando raid. But tactically, it's not quite justified. In Empire, the base shield explains the ground assault vs bombardment. Was a base shield ever mentioned in Jedi? And if an AT-AT can walk under one, what's rhe clearance? Could x-wings fly under? If you want the commando raid which seems like a more complicated solution, there needs ro be a reason why the obvious solution doesn't work.

And along those same lines, Palpy needs the rebels to really believe the plan can work, he doesn't have to really make it possible!

If they went with Wookies the rebels could have been flying in weapons and commandos to join up with a local resistance, Chewie would be a liaison, we find out the shield generator is in the middle of a huge city and taking it out by ship would cause a multi-megaton explosion so they need to cripple it from inside without blowing the reactors.

Yeah, that would break the budget but at least it holds together story-wise. Can't nuke Wookies. I doubt the rebels would risk the whole war to save ewoks they didn't even know were there.

jollyreaper wrote:In terms of story, I understand why there needed to be a commando raid. But tactically, it's not quite justified. In Empire, the base shield explains the ground assault vs bombardment. Was a base shield ever mentioned in Jedi? And if an AT-AT can walk under one, what's rhe clearance? Could x-wings fly under? If you want the commando raid which seems like a more complicated solution, there needs ro be a reason why the obvious solution doesn't work.

The shield had to be lowered for Shuttle Tydirium to land, so it seems that it covers the base and generator as well as the Death Star.

YT300000 wrote:

jollyreaper wrote:In terms of story, I understand why there needed to be a commando raid. But tactically, it's not quite justified. In Empire, the base shield explains the ground assault vs bombardment. Was a base shield ever mentioned in Jedi? And if an AT-AT can walk under one, what's rhe clearance? Could x-wings fly under? If you want the commando raid which seems like a more complicated solution, there needs ro be a reason why the obvious solution doesn't work.

The shield had to be lowered for Shuttle Tydirium to land, so it seems that it covers the base and generator as well as the Death Star.

Well, it's probably not safe to fly nap-of-the-earth and try to make it in under a shield in a shuttle like that. If you are authorized, you go in through the front door, all nice and civil. But a good point, confirmation the landing zone is shielded. Can't just drop into orbit and start firing away with your capital ships. But the question remains, how low does the shield reach? Does it reach lower than an AT-AT? Is it impossible for starfighters to sneak under, even if they put on the repulsors and inch along just slightly off the ground?

While that plan may work on some worlds...


It'd probably never work on Endor. The forest would make fast moving fighters a deathtrap low to the ground. And inching along the ground exposes them just as greatly as they'd have to find clear paths. It's why for the most part speeder bikes were used. They could navigate the forest with ease and not have to worry about clipping a wing on a thick branch and crashing.

I'd say the shield probably went like the Gungan one of Ep1. It reaches to the ground. Far larger scale of course most likely, but still.

Speeder bikes were fairly lethal, too. And the low bit should only be necessary for clearing the shield edge.

The whole coordination thing with the Endor attack seems pretty dicey. I'm thinking back to the Pacific war with the Japanese attempting complicated shuttle bombing attacks with aircraft taking off from and landing at different airfields. The concept never worked in practice because coordination of all the moving parts was so difficult.

The whole reason why the attack had to proceed without go codes is because the rebels couldn't carry a hyperspace transmitter with them on the ground and they lacked any means of externally verifying the destruction of the shield generator. Otherwise they could just have a scout ship sitting a light-minute out wih a telescope trained on the moon. When there's a plume of smoke rising from the generator location, head back to the fleet with the go code.

If none of that is possible, you're left with what we saw in the movie which remains dicey.

Well, that assumes said smoke would be clearly visible from orbit .

As it is, I believe they timed it so they strike the station right after the shield goes down (was how they timed it at least) and not give the Empire time to go "Crap, get the station out of here!" or "Call reinforcements now!" and get hit by an incoming fleet at the same time they start the attack.

The death star was supposed to be immobile at that point.

Still, the rebels didn't leave themselves much wiggle room there. I wonder what their total losses were. The power vacuum after the loss of an autocrat like Palpy must have been dramatic.

The new crap Lucas stuck in Jedi makes it look like Coruscant locals were happy he was gone. As if! They would be the most upset. All the sycophants would be living there. Empire is good for business.

The establishment of the New Republic would be fascinating and messy. Who were Palpy's enablers? How many survived his reign? How do you de-sithify the government bureaucracies?

I think the EU establishes that those parties were in part staged by resistance cells and were soon cracked down on. IIRC its mentioned in one of the rogue or wraith squadron books - been too long since I've read them to remember exactly.

It's in X-Wing - Iron Fist I think.

Grand Admiral Thrawn suggests that one reason Endor was such a defeat for the Imps was the emperor was using Battle Meditation / slight mind control to increase the efficiency of the fleet so when he dies the fleet is suddenly less coordinated. It's mentioned in Heir to the Empire IIRC.

I never liked battle meditation. The easier answer is that he has a hierarchical organization that deplores independent thing. A little ambition is good but too much is dangerous. Degraded operation efficiency but dependable is preferable to efficient and questionable loyalties.

Therefore when you lose the emperor, his right-hand man, and possibly the entire command staff in charge of the fleet at Endor, it becomes chaos. Even if the imperials retained the numerical superiority to defeat the surviving rebels, their morale is shot and they are likely in a panic mode. Retreat, regroup, wait for orders.

If the collapse and route made no sense, then possibly you might need to invoke something like battle meditation to explain the outcome. If nobody fired on the reactor and the death star still blew up, you'd have to explain the Emperor's body exploded with just that much force. That sounds silly and fortunately is not necessary to explain what we saw.

Personally, I don't like power creep where Jedi are turned into demigods. They are a bit stronger and faster than normals, they aren't dragonball characters. That game Force Unleashed was ridiculous with pulling Star Destroyers out of the sky. Size matters not but lifting an x-wing kicked Yoda's ass. Battle meditation seems like that kind of creep. I can buy influencing individuals in a room but coordinating entire battle fleets? No, that's just crazy powerful.

jollyreaper wrote:They are a bit stronger and faster than normals, they aren't dragonball characters.

You realize that you're talking about people who can deflect blaster bolts in mid-air with their laser swords, right?

Or with their bare hands in the case of Vader..

In TFU case... The Star Destroyer was already on a flight path toward the ground even ingame (I've read here the novel variant says it was going to crash, and Starkiller merely redirected it to case into the ore cannon)

While TFU might take the force to the extreme end, I still think they did kinda open it up. I mean, with the force you can lift X-wings and move them a distance. Or leap good distances or communicate across space.

I'm sure plenty went "I wonder if I could use the force to knock over an AT-ST." or "What if one grabbed a ship with the force and pulled toward the ground?" Heck, imagine if you gripped the side of an AT-AT and yanked hard enough with the force? .

And, didn't the EU have a scene where a group of jedi combined their focus and pushed an entire star destroyer fleet out of a system?

Ralin wrote:

jollyreaper wrote:They are a bit stronger and faster than normals, they aren't dragonball characters.

You realize that you're talking about people who can deflect blaster bolts in mid-air with their laser swords, right?

Precognition. The way it's presented, they aren't like the Flash, seeing and reacting at the same time. They are seeing into the future slightly and moving the blade to intersect with the blaster. The reflexes might be fast but we've never seen anything like the robot cliche of having an android character perform 20 minutes of work in five seconds with the film sped up. We've seen superhuman leaps and telekinetic stunts but I haven't seen a Jedi in the film lift a speeder with one hand or punch his way through a bulkhead.

The only really crazy bit was force speed that we only saw once and was never repeated.

Agility, acrobatics, hand-eye coordination, that's all clearly superhuman but their strength and durability hasn't been portrayed as highly superhuman.

atg wrote:Or with their bare hands in the case of Vader..

Wouldn't exactly call Vader's hand bare.

jollyreaper wrote:Personally, I don't like power creep where Jedi are turned into demigods. They are a bit stronger and faster than normals, they aren't dragonball characters. That game Force Unleashed was ridiculous with pulling Star Destroyers out of the sky. Size matters not but lifting an x-wing kicked Yoda's ass. Battle meditation seems like that kind of creep. I can buy influencing individuals in a room but coordinating entire battle fleets? No, that's just crazy powerful.

I agree, and there are even more ridiculous force feets. Exar Kun made a star go supernova and Palpatine made a wormhole. And as for blaster deflection, most blaster bolts are about the speed of arrows. People can catch arrows in mid-air.

Yoda was 900 and out of practice. Even in ATOC he shows signs of fatigue due to his age.

In all honesty, incredible Force feats are the least of my concerns when it come to the EU, at least it falls in with what Vader says in ANH "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of The Force.".

Post-ROTJ EU shows the Jedi relearning the amazing feats that the mythos of the Jedi was built on and Pre-TPM EU shows them being used by only the strongest of the Jedi/Sith.

As for TFU I don't think the game mechanics, even though they actually constitute part of the story, are all that bad as they simply illustrate the upper limit of what is possible and also show why cloning Force users is a very good idea.

Havok wrote:

atg wrote:Or with their bare hands in the case of Vader..

Wouldn't exactly call Vader's hand bare.

I did like how in KOTOR2 you can actually take hand to hand as a weapon and learn skills to deflect blaster bolts without having a lightsaber.

I liked when the force was still mysterious. You didn't know the extent of it's power in the original trilogy, each episode showed something new. I really wish the prequels did that, rather than the "midichlorians" route. That's one reason I love the KOTOR games almost as much as the original trilogy. There were wounds in the force, and Darth Sion and Darth Nihilus were undead sith lords. Revan and Darth Traya had unique perspectives on force philosophy.

Oh for fucks sake the midichlorians do NOTHING to demystify the Force.

What is the Force?
How does it work?
Why does it work?
Is it alive?
Does it really have a will?
Does it really control destiny?

All the midichlorians did is say "Oh hey, this guy may have some Force potential, lets train him."

And EVEN THEN, the guy who is supposed to have all the midichlorians in the universe, KEEPS GETTING HIS ASS KICKED.
Fucking Yoda's explanation of the Force in TESB does more to demystify the Force than midichlorians do.

Skywalker wrote:I liked when the force was still mysterious. You didn't know the extent of it's power in the original trilogy, each episode showed something new. I really wish the prequels did that, rather than the "midichlorians" route. That's one reason I love the KOTOR games almost as much as the original trilogy. There were wounds in the force, and Darth Sion and Darth Nihilus were undead sith lords. Revan and Darth Traya had unique perspectives on force philosophy.

Nihilus.... do we even know what he was? Sion we know was literally sustained by his rage and the dark side, hence his horrifically scarred body from so many 'deaths'. (Hell, in one case we theorized if he was in halo universe, and the ring fired, he would be completely unaffected. Likewise, I bet he could survive many doomsday bombardments as long as he wasn't directly hit.)

Nihilus... I admittedly know less of. He fed off the force and could consume entire planets, but I don't know anything about him physically.

Havok wrote:Oh for fucks sake the midichlorians do NOTHING to demystify the Force.

What is the Force?
How does it work?
Why does it work?
Is it alive?
Does it really have a will?
Does it really control destiny?

All the midichlorians did is say "Oh hey, this guy may have some Force potential, lets train him."

And EVEN THEN, the guy who is supposed to have all the midichlorians in the universe, KEEPS GETTING HIS ASS KICKED.
Fucking Yoda's explanation of the Force in TESB does more to demystify the Force than midichlorians do.

Lol, I recently heard a good explanation of the midichlorians. "They don't actually effect how powerful you are. Instead, they deal with how sensitive you are to the force. A person with less would not feel the death of all the jedi or the destruction of the planet in episode IV, a person with more (Like yoda, obi-wan, or even Anakin) would feel it clearly, maybe if it's horrific enough go like the Jedi exile and become a wound in the force."

So, midichlorians really don't answer any of Havok's questions. At least, them alone. Sure it kinda 'grounds' it more into a science, but it doesn't explain why a Jedi can manipulate inorganic objects (as opposed to, if it was required to be affected by the force, a jedi could never force push a droid or lift a crate.)

Daefaron wrote:Nihilus... I admittedly know less of. He fed off the force and could consume entire planets, but I don't know anything about him physically.

From my memory of the game, Nihilus' physical form was the robe and the mask. Past those there was just the manifestation of the hunger he had been consumed by, almost like a wraith when you think about it. Before that, I think he was a human, or at least humanoid.