What if Luke and Leia were never conceived?

[Spiderman Fanboy]

While it's very plausible that Palpatine could have formed the Galactic Empire, with or without Anakin/Darth Vader, even if Anakin was never born or if he was never taken away from Tattoine by Qui Gon Jinn, what I find to be very interesting is that if he could have formed the Empire without a pregnant Padme. I know this sounds very crazy-what does Padme being pregnant have to do with the formation of the Empire? Well.....

Palpatine had the threat of Padme's death to turn Anakin towards the darkside.

It wasn't just about saving Padme that had led Anakin Skywalker into becoming Darth Vader. He didn't only want to save Padme. He was also a very power hungry Jedi. Padme's pregnancy had only sped up his fall to the darkside. Here are some quotes that prove that his fall to the darkside was only about Padme.

"The Jedi have planned to overthrow the Republic. I saw master Windu try to assassinate the Chancellor himself"
"I am more powerful than the Chancellor. I can overthrow him. And together you can I can rule the galaxy. Make things the way we want them to be"
"Don't lecture me Obi-Wan, I see through the lies of the Jedi"
"I have brought freedom, justice and security to my new empire"
"I should have known the Jedi were plotting to take over"
"From my point of view the Jedi are evil"

Anakin stayed on the darkside after Padme died because of his desires for political power, as implied in AOTC.

However, I don't think that Anakin would have cut off Mace Windu's hand, thereby saving Palpatine's life from him and allowing Palpatine to live and create the empire, if there was no saving pregnant Padme from childbirth death involved. The only reason that he saved the future Emperor's life from Mace Windu was to keep Sidious alive to get the power of Darth Plageuis to save Padme.

But would Sidious have tempted Anakin towards the darkside without a pregnant Padme? Maybe. Maybe not. Let's all feel free to speculate on that paticular plot point. And, also.....

And, also, Sidious didn't need a Jedi attack to commence Order 66. He could have started it at any time if he wanted to, with his clonetroopers. The question is-would Anakin have survived Order 66 to eventually defeat Sidious and, the Empire too?

Anakin (the young good guy Jedi Anakin) could have killed Sidious as early as ROTS. Here are some quotes to prove that, from Wookipedia.

"In the The Making of Star Wars Revenge of the Sith, George Lucas, the creator and ultimate authority regarding the Star Wars universe, responded to the question of whether Mace Windu brought a weak group of Jedi with him for the confrontation with Palpatine by replying that "one would have to be either Windu or Yoda to compete with Palpatine," and that if Anakin had suffered none of his injuries, he could have beaten the Emperor."

Obi Wan Kenobi and Yoda had both survived Order 66, for reasons that are not explicitly told to us, and neither of them defeated the Sith, and they went into hiding in order to wait until Luke and Leia to do the job. Would Anakin have been able to defeat Sidious during ROTS had he survived Order 66? I think so, if he had survived.

So, does this mean that, Luke and Leia's very existence may have been not only unintentionally responsible for the Empire's formation, but that the galaxy would have been better off without them?

No Pregnant Padme?

[img]https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSdsnw1T1sFo7g1IocCs_sH5ph58qLshKXDDHAgH5Gt8hRlhwaxZQ[/img]

Means no Galactic Empire?

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[Spiderman Fanboy]

In my opinion, no Luke and Leia means no Empire.

[Zwinmar]

My opinion so take with liberal amounts of salt but...

Anakin was a whiner. As a former slave he felt that the Republic owed him for their non-intervention of his mothers fate as well as the hardships brought on by it.

As the Sidious' plan, it being centuries if not millenia old, did not rely upon Skywalker, in fact if it was not for him disobeying orders the mobilization of the Clone Army would not have happened, at least not as quickly as it did.

[biostem]

Well, if the so-called prophecy of Anakin being the "chosen one" was indeed true, then perhaps he'd have fallen in some other way - like instead of due to Palpatine manipulating him with promises of saving Padme, he'd have used his anger toward not being treated as a true Jedi Master.

What I would find interesting would be what if the Republic went and freed Shmi ASAP? She could have continued to be a positive influence on Anakin, and he might not have had the kind of immaturity and cynicism that led to his downfall.

[Metahive]

Anakin/Vader turned out to be totally irrelevant for Palpatine's rise, so as it stands, nothing important would change, other than Palpatine getting to stay emperor for longer.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

I want to create a seperate thread discussing the hypothethical in which Anakin was never born/or if Qui Gon Jinn had never rescued him from slavery on Tattoine with the podrace. I don't want this thread to be derailed any further, in talking about that hypothethical situation.

Now, don't get me wrong. I appreatice you guy's input and conversation and ideas that you're posting over here. I just want to be discuss that in a seperate thread.

This thread is about mainly two things (A), would Anakin Skywalker have become Darth Vader by turning to the darkside without Padme being pregnant with Luke and Leia, and (B), would the Empire have been created if Padme hadn't become pregnant with Luke and Leia, because Anakin's turn to the darkside because of Padme had given him a partial responsibility in forming the Empire, as shown in the films.

Anakin Skywalker was the person that saved Darth Sidious from Mace Windu by blocking his lightsaber from killing Palpatine. The only reason that he cut off Mace Windu's hand, thereby saving Palpatine and allowing the Galactic Empire to be formed, was because he needed Palpatine alive to save Padme's life with the power of the darkside.

Without Padme in the picture, or rather, suppose Anakin had married Padme but she had never gotten pregnant with Luke and Leia, then Palpatine might have still told Anakin that he was Darth Sidious, and Anakin still would have reported him to Mace Windu, but Mace Windu would've killed Sidious because Anakin wouldn't want to keep him alive to save Padme, and thus, no Empire is formed.

Remember, Padme may have been Anakin's biggest factor in turning him to the darkside, but he was also very power hungry too, for political power, a paranoia against the Jedi, and other things too. Padme's pregnancy had driven Anakin towards the darkside. He stayed on the darkside because of his political goals. However, with no pregnant Padme, there would have been no "Mace Windu moment" to drive Anakin towards the darkside.

[Kreller1]

Without the pregnancy, Palpy could have come up with some other contingency, like Padme' contracting some disease, that nothing except the Dark Side could cure. I mean, Palpy was so patient, plotting and methodical, that I am sure he had backup plans from A through Y. The pregnancy was just one method of pushing Anakin in the direction Palpy wanted him to go.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Without the pregnancy, Palpy could have come up with some other contingency, like Padme' contracting some disease, that nothing except the Dark Side could cure. I mean, Palpy was so patient, plotting and methodical, that I am sure he had backup plans from A through Y. The pregnancy was just one method of pushing Anakin in the direction Palpy wanted him to go.

But without the threat to save Padme's life, the Empire is never formed?

Also, would Anakin have survived Order 66 or not? George Lucas's quotes prove that the young, without the robot suit, Anakin could have defeated the Emperor. Suppose Padme never gets pregnant, and then Sidious has order 66 commence anyways, and then

For some reason, Obi wan and Yoda survived. On another star wars message board forum website, somebody had told me that without Anakin being involved in Palpatine's plan, and thus Sidious has Order 66 happens at a different time, even then, Obi wan kenobi and yoda would have still survived Order 66. Why is that? Is that even true?

In a similar hypothetical scenario, with Anakin, but no pregnant Padme, maybe Anakin could have survived Order 66 and went to go and defeat the Empire early on, as early on as ROTS.

[Lord Revan]

Without the pregnancy, Palpy could have come up with some other contingency, like Padme' contracting some disease, that nothing except the Dark Side could cure. I mean, Palpy was so patient, plotting and methodical, that I am sure he had backup plans from A through Y. The pregnancy was just one method of pushing Anakin in the direction Palpy wanted him to go.

But without the threat to save Padme's life, the Empire is never formed?

GFFA is a dangerous galaxy, a death by childbirth doesn't have to be reason for a threat to padme's life, for all we know Sidious used that because it was convinient to his plans even if he didn't think of it himself.

the Sith Order had worked to this end for a millenia, I dout they would fail due something as simple as a person not getting pregnant when she was "suppose" to.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Without the pregnancy, Palpy could have come up with some other contingency, like Padme' contracting some disease, that nothing except the Dark Side could cure. I mean, Palpy was so patient, plotting and methodical, that I am sure he had backup plans from A through Y. The pregnancy was just one method of pushing Anakin in the direction Palpy wanted him to go.

But without the threat to save Padme's life, the Empire is never formed?

GFFA is a dangerous galaxy, a death by childbirth doesn't have to be reason for a threat to padme's life, for all we know Sidious used that because it was convinient to his plans even if he didn't think of it himself.

the Sith Order had worked to this end for a millenia, I dout they would fail due something as simple as a person not getting pregnant when she was "suppose" to.

Yes, but, without Padme as his wife, and/or without Luke and Leia being conceived, Anakin would have simply killed Sidious in ROTS and fullfilled the prophecies decades earlier, meaning that the billions of Aldearanian deaths, not to mention all of the imperial citizens that were killed during imperial sith atrocities, never would have happened. No Galactic Empire.

I've explained this in my above posts about Anakin in Order 66 and Mace Windu.

[Lord Revan]

Darth Sidious is a schemer, sith alchemist a sith sorceror, all 3 of these things allow options to put Padme's life in danger even without pregnancy, hell they allow him to force Anakin to fall to dark side even without Padme.

As I said it's dangerous galaxy out there, there's no reason to assume if there's no risk from death by childbirth, that there's no risk of death for Padme at all.

Or are you honestly suggesting that Darth Sidious, man who is in his 60s or 70s and has spent pretty much the whole of this adult life working on the revenge of the sith (excuse the pun) had no back-up plans incase something unexpected happend, say for example Padme didn't get pregnant or that Anakin didn't get visions of her death.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Darth Sidious is a schemer, sith alchemist a sith sorceror, all 3 of these things allow options to put Padme's life in danger even without pregnancy, hell they allow him to force Anakin to fall to dark side even without Padme.

As I said it's dangerous galaxy out there, there's no reason to assume if there's no risk from death by childbirth, that there's no risk of death for Padme at all.

Or are you honestly suggesting that Darth Sidious, man who is in his 60s or 70s and has spent pretty much the whole of this adult life working on the revenge of the sith (excuse the pun) had no back-up plans incase something unexpected happend, say for example Padme didn't get pregnant or that Anakin didn't get visions of her death.

What was the revenge of the Sith, exactly?

Evidently, both of our opinions are just educated speculation at this point, as George Lucas has never answered these hypothetical questions directly.

Without Anakin believing that Padme's life was in danger at all, there would be no Darth Vader or a Galactic Empire.

The only reason that Anakin had cut off Mace Windu's hand and saved Palp's life was because of Padme.

Without a perceived threat to Padme's life, Palpatine dies right there and there is no Galactic Empire.

Not to mention, why did Obi wan and yoda survive Order 66? On another Star Wars forum website, somebody had posted "if Anakin wasn't there, the result would likely be the same. Kenobi and Yoda survie Order 66", or something along those lines. Why? Did Obi wan and Yoda have some special powers that made them survive Order 66, while all of the other Jedis were doomed to die?

Now, in the hypothethical situation that there is no pregnant Padme, would/could Anakin have been just like yoda and obi wan? Did Anakin have any abilities to survive Order 66? He would have killed Darth Sidious as early as ROTS if Anakin had stayed light side and if he was an Order 66 survivor.

I love this discussion, too, BTW!!!

[Eternal_Freedom]

I would suspect that Sidious used Padme's pregnancy because it was the most conviniently timed. Instead, maybe he woudl have used Anakin's ambition being frustrated, or Obi-Wan and the Council not trusting him fully, or something involving hurting the Clonetroopers Anakin clearly cares about more than most other Jedi. Or he could present joining the Dark Side to Anakin (in his Palpatine guise of course) as the only way to destroy the Sith - from within. Or present it as the heroic sacrifice needed to fulfil the prohpecy.

There's five different ways off the top of my head that he might try, none of which rely on Anakin having any relationship with Padme.

Also, something I think you have to consider is that if Padme is not pregnant things will not play out as they do in the film. Suppose that Palpatine threatens to reveal to the Council Anakin's marriage, perhaps Anakin would decide not to tell Windu that Palpatine is Sidious. His team is a lot less on guard because they aren't expecting a Sith Lord and are all killed.

[Lord Revan]

Well Spidey the main problem with your theory atm is that you assume that if the twins don't exist that there's no danger to Padme at all.

Padme Amidala is one of the most idealistic senators in the Galactic Republic that causes her to have alot of enemies, some (Nute Gunray for example) could try to get her killed, Palpatine could covertly plant the idea to Anakin's head that only way to protect Padme from these enemies is to join the Sith.

Second Palpatine could poison Padme with Sith Alchemy in such a way that she died slowly enough to again plant the idea to Anakin that joining the Sith is the only way to save her or he could use a Sith ritual to achive the same effect.

that's 3 ways Palpatine could have created Darth Vader without the twins, it just happens that visions proved to me the most convinient way to achive his goals.

as to why Obi-wan and Yoda survived, in case of Obi-wam it essentially blind luck and in Yoda's case it was help from the natives of the planet and after the initial wave they laid low in either of place Anakin/Vader would never willing set foot in or middle of nowhere.

[Eternal_Freedom]

On the matter of the visions, from what we actually saw, was there anything to show Padme was actually dying in childbirth as opposed to just dying slowly and painfully?

[Spiderman Fanboy]

I would suspect that Sidious used Padme's pregnancy because it was the most conviniently timed. Instead, maybe he woudl have used Anakin's ambition being frustrated, or Obi-Wan and the Council not trusting him fully, or something involving hurting the Clonetroopers Anakin clearly cares about more than most other Jedi. Or he could present joining the Dark Side to Anakin (in his Palpatine guise of course) as the only way to destroy the Sith - from within. Or present it as the heroic sacrifice needed to fulfil the prohpecy.

There's five different ways off the top of my head that he might try, none of which rely on Anakin having any relationship with Padme.

Also, something I think you have to consider is that if Padme is not pregnant things will not play out as they do in the film. Suppose that Palpatine threatens to reveal to the Council Anakin's marriage, perhaps Anakin would decide not to tell Windu that Palpatine is Sidious. His team is a lot less on guard because they aren't expecting a Sith Lord and are all killed.

While Anakin was most likely not nessecary for the formation of the Galactic Empire, as Darth Sidious could have done that even if Anakin had never been born of if Qui Gon Jinn had never won his freedom and he was a slave on Tattoine for the rest of his life, Anakin turning to the darkside was most likely a must.

A lightside Anakin could have killed Palpatine as early as ROTS.

If only George Lucas had explained this to the fans a bit more clearly.

Anakin's power hungry ambitions and his distrust of the Jedi were what had kept him on the darkside after Padme's death. His desire to save Padme was what drove him to the darkside. Those other contributing factors, other than Padme, had led him into that situation. Had Padme lived, he may have possibly been redeemed much earlier on, however.

When Anakin cut of Mace Windu's hand, thereby creating the Galactic Empire by preventing Darth Sidious's death, it was for saving Padme, only.

Without those other non Padme contributing factors, Anakin never would've fallen to the darkside, but he needed Padme too, also. It was a combination of all of those factors, not just one of them. However, it was only Anakin's desperation to save Padme, his wife, that had led him to save Darth Sidious, to help in Mace Windu's killing, and creating the Empire.

Anakin didn't really care so much about his power and about his distrust in the Jedi when he had saved Palpatine from Mace Windu.

[Eternal_Freedom]

There are plenty of ways to neutralise a lightside-Anakin. Order 66 comes to mind. Since he likes flying fighters, having his squadmates shoot him down like they did to that other Council member. If not, have the capital ship he is on destroyed or whatever.

Again, there can be a threat to Padme without Luke and Leia being conceived. I agree that his choice to save Sidious was to save Padme, and that's fine, but ithat does not require there to be a pregnancy.[/i] Especially since I don't think Anakin's visions, as we the audience saw them, actually said she dies in childbirth. I suspect Anakin saw her dying in apparent pain and concluded it was foretelling death in childbirth, especially since his child/children would no doubt be featuring prominently in his mind.

[Lord Revan]

Again, there can be a threat to Padme without Luke and Leia being conceived. I agree that his choice to save Sidious was to save Padme, and that's fine, but ithat does not require there to be a pregnancy.[/i] Especially since I don't think Anakin's visions, as we the audience saw them, actually said she dies in childbirth. I suspect Anakin saw her dying in apparent pain and concluded it was foretelling death in childbirth, especially since his child/children would no doubt be featuring prominently in his mind.

That's a good point about what we saw in the visions, had Padme not been pregnant, Anakin could have concluded it as an accident, an assasin or something like that.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Again, there can be a threat to Padme without Luke and Leia being conceived. I agree that his choice to save Sidious was to save Padme, and that's fine, but ithat does not require there to be a pregnancy.[/i] Especially since I don't think Anakin's visions, as we the audience saw them, actually said she dies in childbirth. I suspect Anakin saw her dying in apparent pain and concluded it was foretelling death in childbirth, especially since his child/children would no doubt be featuring prominently in his mind.

That's a good point about what we saw in the visions, had Padme not been pregnant, Anakin could have concluded it as an accident, an assasin or something like that.

However, his Force visions also show a Padme that's crying from her childbirth death.

Even if you don't interpert them as such, it was Anakin who had that fear of her dying in pregnancy with Luke and Leia, not Sidious. Sidious had only come to Anakin after Anakin had these fears first.

The main problem is that your theories suggest predestination, and not the power and the responsibility of choices, for Anakin.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Again, there can be a threat to Padme without Luke and Leia being conceived. I agree that his choice to save Sidious was to save Padme, and that's fine, but ithat does not require there to be a pregnancy.[/i] Especially since I don't think Anakin's visions, as we the audience saw them, actually said she dies in childbirth. I suspect Anakin saw her dying in apparent pain and concluded it was foretelling death in childbirth, especially since his child/children would no doubt be featuring prominently in his mind.

That's a good point about what we saw in the visions, had Padme not been pregnant, Anakin could have concluded it as an accident, an assasin or something like that.

However, his Force visions also show a Padme that's crying from her childbirth death.

I dont think it's clearly stated it's childbirth. I would suspect (though I may be wrong) that weeping might be expected during a drawn-out and painful death.

Even if you don't interpert them as such, it was Anakin who had that fear of her dying in pregnancy with Luke and Leia, not Sidious. Sidious had only come to Anakin after Anakin had these fears first.

An emotional man barely out of his teens fears for the safety of his wife he hasn't seen in months in the middle of a freaking war. It's hardly surprising he has those fears. Anakin lost just about everyone he cared about, he only had Padme and Obi-Wan left. He doesn't want to lose anyone else. Palpatine, being a cunning sod, uses this to manipulate Anakin. Again, pregnancy not required.

The main problem is that your theories suggest predestination, and not the power and the responsibility of choices, for Anakin.

I'm not sure what your point is here. I don't think mine suggest predestination, more that Sidious is cunning and manipulative enough to make Anakin fall no matter what happens to Padme. Yes, Anakin has visions of Padme dying. He chooses to interpret that as childbirth, and he chooses to grasp whatever thread of hope might stop it. You could argue I suppose that Padme had to die for Sidious' plans to work, but that isn't predestination, it's just him finding a different way to make it happen.

[Lord Revan]

Spidey I'm not sure you know what Predestination means, it means something must happen no matter what. That's not what me and Eternal_Freedom have been saying, what we've been saying is that Darth Sidious is crafty enough to try have ways to try to make Anakin fall other then using padme's pregnancy even plans that might not involve her at all.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Spidey I'm not sure you know what Predestination means, it means something must happen no matter what. That's not what me and Eternal_Freedom have been saying, what we've been saying is that Darth Sidious is crafty enough to try have ways to try to make Anakin fall other then using padme's pregnancy even plans that might not involve her at all.

You can also call me Sam, that's one of my nicknames! BTW, Spidey is a good one too!

What I meant by predestination is that you were implying that Anakin would fall to the darkside no matter what. That's the definition predestination. Another example of predestination would be Judas betraying Christ, as some Christian sects believe was predestined no matter what, and Judas could not choose otherwise.

[Eternal_Freedom]

It's not that "Anakin would fall no matter what" it's more "Sidious wants/desires/needs Anakin to fall and will arrange it so that whatever choices he makes he will still fall and/or be neutralised as a threat." It isn't some great force of Destiny making Anakin fall, it is Sidious being clever enough to come up with backup plans. Hell, if there is no baby he can still use a perceived threat against Padme. On that note, Sidious never mentioned the pregnancy that I can recall.

[Kreller1]

Anakin's fall is not a requirement for the formation of the Empire. What his fall *does* do is give the Lord of the Sith a very powerful apprentice, who happens to be the "chosen one." Again, remember that the Sith are very patient, Palpy being a very cunning guy will have backups and contingencies for just about any situation that might pop up. The Empire is coming because the Sith have set that boulder rolling down the hill, and about the only thing that will stop it is Palpy's death, regardless of who/what kills him. Even then, I think Palpy was smart enough to have a plan that covered this eventuality. (Somebody else would give Order 66, etc, if Palpy were unable to.)

[Guardsman Bass]

Palpatine really wanted Anakin as the new Sith apprentice, but wiping out the Jedi and gaining control was the higher priority. If he'd never had an opening to subvert Anakin, then he'd probably just try to neutralize him. My guess is that Anakin would go out on the Utapau mission to hunt Grievous with Obi-Wan, while Palpatine took a different tack to provoke a Jedi coup attempt and get them outlawed. At which point, he'd try and get them both killed when Order 66 goes active.