No Anakin Skywalker=No Galactic Empire?

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Did Qui Gon Jinn make the right decision by freeing little Anakin Skywalker from slavery? No, and to quote this video, "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z29OVZLbZk", it says, "The man who is ulimately responsible for the rise of Darth Vader, the fall of the Republic and the deaths of his fellow Jedi's. Good job."

Without Anakin, Mace Windu wouldn't have been killed in the Chancellor's office. He was also such a very powerful Jedi, he almost killed Sidious, the Emperor Palpatine! I have no doubt that he could have survived Order 66 had Anakin never brought him into the Chancellor's office.

Without Anakin, there would be no Luke and Leia. Now, this may sound like a bad thing, but it actually isn't. I'll explain how/why.

Yoda had survived Order 66 and overpowered the Clonetroopers because he's such a powerful Jedi, who could sense their dangers through the Force.

And Obi wan kenobi, for some other, reason, he too probably would have survived.

Remember, too, the butterfly effect. Anakin's timing may have been perfect for Order 66 to happen. Remember, in the EU, there were about 100 or so order 66 survivors. But they had never went on to go and challenge the Emperor and Darth Vader. That's because certain Jedi weren't strong enough to do that. Without Anakin being there, Order 66 might have happened either a little bit earlier or later on, and certain other Jedi might have survived and might have gone to kill the Emperor and his Sith apprentice.

And, so, here's my main point over here. Why didn't Obi wan kenobi and yoda go and try to destroy the Sith during ROTS-ANH time period? Why did they just go into hiding? It's because, if they had actually tried to go and kill the Emperor and Darth Vader, in a second attempt or possibly in many more attempts, and if they had failed in doing so and were killed by Sidious and Vader, there would be nobody left to train the Skywalker twins to destroy the Sith, and they would then have failed

They couldn't take that risk. They had to wait a very long time for the galaxy's new hopes/new chosen ones, the Skywalker twins, to do the job. They had to take the safest route to destroy the Sith, for if they had tried so immeditaly, they risked failing and dying and losing the opurtunity to train the Skywalker twins

Without Anakin, and therefore with out any Luke and Leia, then Obi wan kenobi and yoda and/or mace windu, and possibly the other surviving Jedi, would have no reason to go into hiding to train their only hopes. They would be the only hopes. They would go and try to kill the Emperor and his sith apprentice themselves, and, hey, due to their amazing strength and prowess in the Force, they probably would have suceeded.

[Gandalf]

Without Anakin, Mace Windu wouldn't have been killed in the Chancellor's office.

Didn't Anakin actually inform them that the Chancellor was a Sith lord?

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Without Anakin, Mace Windu wouldn't have been killed in the Chancellor's office.

Didn't Anakin actually inform them that the Chancellor was a Sith lord?

Yes. Without Anakin, Mace Windu never would have gone to the Chancellor's office, and he wouldn't have been killed by Darth Sidious.

He would have been, presumably at the Jedi Temple on Coruscant during Order 66. And, due to his super powerful Jedi skills, he would have survived (he almost had killed the Emperor, I mean, come on really!). And he would have been powerful enough to go and challenge Darth Sidious, as early as ROTS, with no Anakin to stop him.

[Knife]

*sigh*

Anakin is the key to the whole thing true, but not in the negative sense you're saying.

First off, Anakin isn't the start of the problem. Arguably the Republic is, and arguably Jedi like Mace Windu are. I believe it was the RotS novel explaining that Mace Windu broke the Jedi code about no attachments. He loved the Republic, was a fanatic about it. It shows in that he was willing to do a coup for it, and even earlier do heavy surveillance on the Senate for it, all arguably outside the scope of the Jedi. Yoda also said it himself, the Jedi were too arrogant and sure of themselves.

You can also place the blame on who ever made the prophecy, or more importantly the entity that made the prophecy happen. The Force.

Without Anakin, the transition to the Galactic Empire isn't as clean, but it does happen. Anakin informs the Jedi who Sidious is that lead 4 of it's Masters to death quickly. Without Anakin that doesn't happen, but the 'plan' still goes forward. Order 66 may or may not take out Windu, hard to tell. Without Anakin there is no assault on the Temple by him, but the clone would still go. Do some Jedi get away? To do what? The Republic still falls and the Jedi are still crushed.

You know what doesn't happen without Anakin, the Emperor isn't killed. With no Anakin, there is no safety valve some 20 years later to make the 'correct decision' and off Palpatine. With no death of Palpatine, no Imperial fleet in disarray. No Rebel victory, no destruction of the Deathstars, the Empire remains.

Basically you get rid of Anakin, you ensure Palpatine's victory and make sure he stays for a long time.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

*sigh*

Anakin is the key to the whole thing true, but not in the negative sense you're saying.

First off, Anakin isn't the start of the problem. Arguably the Republic is, and arguably Jedi like Mace Windu are. I believe it was the RotS novel explaining that Mace Windu broke the Jedi code about no attachments. He loved the Republic, was a fanatic about it. It shows in that he was willing to do a coup for it, and even earlier do heavy surveillance on the Senate for it, all arguably outside the scope of the Jedi. Yoda also said it himself, the Jedi were too arrogant and sure of themselves.

You can also place the blame on who ever made the prophecy, or more importantly the entity that made the prophecy happen. The Force.

Without Anakin, the transition to the Galactic Empire isn't as clean, but it does happen. Anakin informs the Jedi who Sidious is that lead 4 of it's Masters to death quickly. Without Anakin that doesn't happen, but the 'plan' still goes forward. Order 66 may or may not take out Windu, hard to tell. Without Anakin there is no assault on the Temple by him, but the clone would still go. Do some Jedi get away? To do what? The Republic still falls and the Jedi are still crushed.

You know what doesn't happen without Anakin, the Emperor isn't killed. With no Anakin, there is no safety valve some 20 years later to make the 'correct decision' and off Palpatine. With no death of Palpatine, no Imperial fleet in disarray. No Rebel victory, no destruction of the Deathstars, the Empire remains.

Basically you get rid of Anakin, you ensure Palpatine's victory and make sure he stays for a long time.

Many SW fans still aren't a fan of this whole entire Chosen One prophecy. And they have a point. There could have been another new hope/chosen one without Anakin Skywalker being there.

Anakin Skywalker was not needed to defeat Darth Sidious. Without Anakin, exactly. Some other Jedi still get away. The Republic falls, but some of the Jedi are not still killed without Anakin being there, and, for example, had Mace Windu survived Order 66, he could have killed Sidious very early on, possibly as early as ROTS, maybe even a little bit later, but certainly a lot earlier than ROTJ or before the many Sith atrocities, (ie, such as Aldearan's destruction).

Not to mention Yoda and Obi wan Kenobi. Mace Windu, obi wan kenobi, and yoda. One of the three most awesomenest and powerful-est Jedis. They could have killed Sidious, and/or his Sith apprentice.

Without Luke and Leia, the Jedi wouldn't go into hiding for about 20 years, the other Jedi wouldn't wait a long time to train them in the ways of the force, as I said earlier. They would get the job done and destroy the Sith much earlier on. After all, Order 66 was done so that the Galactic Empire could/would have been formed. Without Anakin, the Jedi go and kill Sidious and his sith apprentice much earlier on.

Militarily, Lord Vader storming the Jedi Temple did not really do anything either way, without Anakin being there, the clonetrooper's commander could have led the march, and the younglings still would have died either way.

I'm not saying that Sidious's plan was predestined at all. It wasn't. There could have been some other factors that interfered with his rule and/or the Empire's activities.

But Anakin/Vader being there doesn't really affect those other factors either way or not.

And, I disagree with you on that one. Palpatine wouldn't have escaped the DS2 anyways. He was overconfident.

[Knife]

Many SW fans still aren't a fan of this whole entire Chosen One prophecy. And they have a point. There could have been another new hope/chosen one without Anakin Skywalker being there.

That may be, but that's not what happened and fanboy wishing doesn't change that.

Anakin Skywalker was not needed to defeat Darth Sidious. Without Anakin, exactly. Some other Jedi still get away. The Republic falls, but some of the Jedi are not still killed without Anakin being there, and, for example, had Mace Windu survived Order 66, he could have killed Sidious very early on, possibly as early as ROTS, maybe even a little bit later, but certainly a lot earlier than ROTJ or before the many Sith atrocities, (ie, such as Aldearan's destruction).

Even if true, which I'm not convinced, that Mace Windu could have still been there at the beginning of the GE and fought Palpatine and killed him; that just reverts it back to corrupt Senate and corrupt Republic with fanatical arrogant Jedi. Why is that better at that time? The Republic is still broke. Sure the atrocities of the GE don't happen, but the Republic and the Jedi are still broken. And if Mace can't do it, isn't physically up to it later, there is no emotional angle for turning a close ally of the Emperor to do it.

Not to mention Yoda and Obi wan Kenobi. Mace Windu, obi wan kenobi, and yoda. One of the three most awesomenest and powerful-est Jedis. They could have killed Sidious, and/or his Sith apprentice.

Did you even watch the movies?

Yoda went mano a mano with the Emperor and had his ass handed to him. The novelization goes as far as saying-

Finally, he saw the truth.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...

just-

didn't-

have it.

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

He had lost before he was born.

The Sith had changed. the Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but the Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi-

The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

And as far as Obi Wan versus the Emperor.

Obi-Wan nodded, but he still couldn't meet the gaze of the ancient Master. "I'll take Palpatine."

"Strong enough to face Lord Sidious, you will never be. Die you will, and painfully."

Obi-Wan was only able to defeat Anakin because he knew him, knew his moves, knew how he fought, knew his buttons. Obi-Wan was able to defeat Anakin because he was a humble Jedi and not arrogant about this fight. He wanted to save Anakin. Anakin was arrogant and striking out and doing stupid shit to impress his old Master, trying to prove how awesome he was.

The Jedi didn't have it in them to defeat the Sith at that time. They lost. Without Anakin, they still lose. Even if they managed to kill the Emperor early in his reign, they just go back to broken dysfunctional Republic with arrogant broken Jedi.

Without Luke and Leia, the Jedi wouldn't go into hiding for about 20 years, the other Jedi wouldn't wait a long time to train them in the ways of the force, as I said earlier. They would get the job done and destroy the Sith much earlier on.

That makes no sense. But does play to my point. The Jedi would immediately put two kids into training to kill the emperor? Hardly nice and good. Hell if anything, Yoda was learning fast after his ass whooping, you don't dedicate kids to killing people right out of the womb. You let them grow up and have childhoods. Let them become people before killing machines, let them be people before agents of fate.

After all, Order 66 was done so that the Galactic Empire could/would have been formed. Without Anakin, the Jedi go and kill Sidious and his sith apprentice much earlier on.

Order 66 was the culmination of a no lose situation for Palpatine and the destruction of the Jedi Order, not specific Jedi. Some Jedi survived the purge and just 'stopped being Jedi' and that served Palpatine just as well. It was the Order he wanted dead. No opposition, no organized opposition. Without Anakin, Order 66 still goes through. Thousands of Jedi are still slaughtered by their own troops. Great gaping holes in the organization are made. Irreplaceable knowledge and personnel are killed. Experience is lost.

Even if Palpatine was killed after Order 66, the Jedi Order would be decimated and non functional. There were only something like 10k of them before the war, now all the experienced, knowledgeable, and powerful ones are killed, all the commanders in the field lost, all the energetic and shakers and movers of the order are gone, you're left with a couple powerful ones, the old, the young. The Jedi Order was killed that day with or without Anakin. The assault on the Temple would have still happened, just with all clones.

Militarily, Lord Vader storming the Jedi Temple did not really do anything either way, without Anakin being there, the clonetrooper's commander could have led the march, and the younglings still would have died either way.

Agreed. Anakin's actions that day did little to bring about the GE, just laid some ground work for 20 years later having some regrets about his choices.

I'm not saying that Sidious's plan was predestined at all. It wasn't. There could have been some other factors that interfered with his rule and/or the Empire's activities.

I am. I come at it from the view that the Force wanted change, the Force made the prophecy. The Force made a powerful Force Wizard to take over the corrupt Republic and Jedi, but also made a fail safe in Anakin to stick around and be in the right place at the right time, to eliminate the evil Force Wizard and bring back balance, a reset it you will. Granted, I don't think the Force controlled all their actions, just set up situations that lead them all down a certain road.

But Anakin/Vader being there doesn't really affect those other factors either way or not.

Sort of, IMO. Anakin needs to be there, see the effects of the choices he made, to later redeem himself and kill the Emperor. It's a major theme in the movies, redemption. The choice between good and evil and understanding your choice. Palpatine had his war and assention to Emperor all set up before he decided to recruit Anakin. He wanted to recruit Anakin for the future, not for the present. He both saw his potential and probably one last 'rub it in your face' to the Jedi to 'take the chosen one from them'.

And, I disagree with you on that one. Palpatine wouldn't have escaped the DS2 anyways. He was overconfident.

Would that situation ever occur is Palpatine wasn't wanting to capture and corrupt Luke? Would he play soft ball with the Rebel fleet is there was no Luke to watch? Would he even let the Rebel's know where the DSII was if he wasn't using it as a ploy to get young Skywalker there?

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Many SW fans still aren't a fan of this whole entire Chosen One prophecy. And they have a point. There could have been another new hope/chosen one without Anakin Skywalker being there.

That may be, but that's not what happened and fanboy wishing doesn't change that.

Anakin Skywalker was not needed to defeat Darth Sidious. Without Anakin, exactly. Some other Jedi still get away. The Republic falls, but some of the Jedi are not still killed without Anakin being there, and, for example, had Mace Windu survived Order 66, he could have killed Sidious very early on, possibly as early as ROTS, maybe even a little bit later, but certainly a lot earlier than ROTJ or before the many Sith atrocities, (ie, such as Aldearan's destruction).

Even if true, which I'm not convinced, that Mace Windu could have still been there at the beginning of the GE and fought Palpatine and killed him; that just reverts it back to corrupt Senate and corrupt Republic with fanatical arrogant Jedi. Why is that better at that time? The Republic is still broke. Sure the atrocities of the GE don't happen, but the Republic and the Jedi are still broken. And if Mace can't do it, isn't physically up to it later, there is no emotional angle for turning a close ally of the Emperor to do it.

Not to mention Yoda and Obi wan Kenobi. Mace Windu, obi wan kenobi, and yoda. One of the three most awesomenest and powerful-est Jedis. They could have killed Sidious, and/or his Sith apprentice.

Did you even watch the movies?

Yoda went mano a mano with the Emperor and had his ass handed to him. The novelization goes as far as saying-

Finally, he saw the truth.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...

just-

didn't-

have it.

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

He had lost before he was born.

The Sith had changed. the Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but the Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi-

The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

And as far as Obi Wan versus the Emperor.

Obi-Wan nodded, but he still couldn't meet the gaze of the ancient Master. "I'll take Palpatine."

"Strong enough to face Lord Sidious, you will never be. Die you will, and painfully."

Obi-Wan was only able to defeat Anakin because he knew him, knew his moves, knew how he fought, knew his buttons. Obi-Wan was able to defeat Anakin because he was a humble Jedi and not arrogant about this fight. He wanted to save Anakin. Anakin was arrogant and striking out and doing stupid shit to impress his old Master, trying to prove how awesome he was.

The Jedi didn't have it in them to defeat the Sith at that time. They lost. Without Anakin, they still lose. Even if they managed to kill the Emperor early in his reign, they just go back to broken dysfunctional Republic with arrogant broken Jedi.

Without Luke and Leia, the Jedi wouldn't go into hiding for about 20 years, the other Jedi wouldn't wait a long time to train them in the ways of the force, as I said earlier. They would get the job done and destroy the Sith much earlier on.

That makes no sense. But does play to my point. The Jedi would immediately put two kids into training to kill the emperor? Hardly nice and good. Hell if anything, Yoda was learning fast after his ass whooping, you don't dedicate kids to killing people right out of the womb. You let them grow up and have childhoods. Let them become people before killing machines, let them be people before agents of fate.

After all, Order 66 was done so that the Galactic Empire could/would have been formed. Without Anakin, the Jedi go and kill Sidious and his sith apprentice much earlier on.

Order 66 was the culmination of a no lose situation for Palpatine and the destruction of the Jedi Order, not specific Jedi. Some Jedi survived the purge and just 'stopped being Jedi' and that served Palpatine just as well. It was the Order he wanted dead. No opposition, no organized opposition. Without Anakin, Order 66 still goes through. Thousands of Jedi are still slaughtered by their own troops. Great gaping holes in the organization are made. Irreplaceable knowledge and personnel are killed. Experience is lost.

Even if Palpatine was killed after Order 66, the Jedi Order would be decimated and non functional. There were only something like 10k of them before the war, now all the experienced, knowledgeable, and powerful ones are killed, all the commanders in the field lost, all the energetic and shakers and movers of the order are gone, you're left with a couple powerful ones, the old, the young. The Jedi Order was killed that day with or without Anakin. The assault on the Temple would have still happened, just with all clones.

Militarily, Lord Vader storming the Jedi Temple did not really do anything either way, without Anakin being there, the clonetrooper's commander could have led the march, and the younglings still would have died either way.

Agreed. Anakin's actions that day did little to bring about the GE, just laid some ground work for 20 years later having some regrets about his choices.

I'm not saying that Sidious's plan was predestined at all. It wasn't. There could have been some other factors that interfered with his rule and/or the Empire's activities.

I am. I come at it from the view that the Force wanted change, the Force made the prophecy. The Force made a powerful Force Wizard to take over the corrupt Republic and Jedi, but also made a fail safe in Anakin to stick around and be in the right place at the right time, to eliminate the evil Force Wizard and bring back balance, a reset it you will. Granted, I don't think the Force controlled all their actions, just set up situations that lead them all down a certain road.

But Anakin/Vader being there doesn't really affect those other factors either way or not.

Sort of, IMO. Anakin needs to be there, see the effects of the choices he made, to later redeem himself and kill the Emperor. It's a major theme in the movies, redemption. The choice between good and evil and understanding your choice. Palpatine had his war and assention to Emperor all set up before he decided to recruit Anakin. He wanted to recruit Anakin for the future, not for the present. He both saw his potential and probably one last 'rub it in your face' to the Jedi to 'take the chosen one from them'.

And, I disagree with you on that one. Palpatine wouldn't have escaped the DS2 anyways. He was overconfident.

Would that situation ever occur is Palpatine wasn't wanting to capture and corrupt Luke? Would he play soft ball with the Rebel fleet is there was no Luke to watch? Would he even let the Rebel's know where the DSII was if he wasn't using it as a ploy to get young Skywalker there?

So, are you implying that Palpatine would have escaped from the second death star if there was no Anakin or Luke there?

Even if that was true, Palpatine was an old man. He would have died very soon anyways.

Could the younglings have possibly survived? Maybe. After all, the spartans could survive and many people can escape from death in extreme life or death situations. However, the prescence of Darth Vader being there doesn't change that either way. The clonetroopers still would have killed them. Maybe they could have escaped, but Vader being there, or not being there, doesn't change anything like that either way. They would have been killed by the clones, end of story.

Do you agree with me that Mace Windu would have killed Sidious if Qui gon jinn hadn't taken Anakin to Coruscant and away from Tattoine? Sure, there still would have been a corrupt senate/corrupt jedi/corrupt republic, but that's better than a mass murdering Sith leader.

A real world analogy is this. People wouldn't want to live in North Korea, despite the corruptions that are over here in America.

[Knife]

And just for the frame of reference for this discussion, the clone wars, specifically Order 66 was described in the novel as such...

Order Sixty-Six is the climax of the Clone Wars.

Not the end-the Clone Wars will end some few hours from now, when a coded signal, sent by Nute Gunray from the secret Separatist bunker on Mustafar, deactivates every combat droid in the galaxy at once-but the climax.

It's not a thrilling climax; it's not the culmination of an epic struggle. just the opposite, in fact. The Clone Wars were never an epic struggle. They were never intended to be.

What is happening right now is why the Clone Wars were fought int he first place. it is their reason for existence. The Clone Wars have always been, in and of themselves, from their very inception, the revenge of the Sith.

They were irresistible bait. the took place in remote locations, on planets that belonged, primarily, to "somebody else." They were fought by expendable proxies. And they were constructed as a win-win situation.

The Clone Wars were the perfect Jedi trap.

By fighting at all, the Jedi lost.

With the Jedi Order overextended, spread thin across the galaxy, each Jedi is alone, surrounded only by whatever clone troops he, she, or it commands. War itself pours darkness into the Force, deepening the cloud that limits Jedi perception. and the clones have no malice, no hatred, not the slightest ill intent that might give warning. They are only following orders.

In this case, Order Sixty-Six.

Hold-out blasters appear in clone hands. ARC-170s drop back onto the tails of Jedi starfighters. AT-STs swivel their guns. Turrets on hovertanks swung silently.

Clones open fire, and Jedi die.

All across the galaxy. All at once.

Jedi die.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

And just for the frame of reference for this discussion, the clone wars, specifically Order 66 was described in the novel as such...

Order Sixty-Six is the climax of the Clone Wars.

Not the end-the Clone Wars will end some few hours from now, when a coded signal, sent by Nute Gunray from the secret Separatist bunker on Mustafar, deactivates every combat droid in the galaxy at once-but the climax.

It's not a thrilling climax; it's not the culmination of an epic struggle. just the opposite, in fact. The Clone Wars were never an epic struggle. They were never intended to be.

What is happening right now is why the Clone Wars were fought int he first place. it is their reason for existence. The Clone Wars have always been, in and of themselves, from their very inception, the revenge of the Sith.

They were irresistible bait. the took place in remote locations, on planets that belonged, primarily, to "somebody else." They were fought by expendable proxies. And they were constructed as a win-win situation.

The Clone Wars were the perfect Jedi trap.

By fighting at all, the Jedi lost.

With the Jedi Order overextended, spread thin across the galaxy, each Jedi is alone, surrounded only by whatever clone troops he, she, or it commands. War itself pours darkness into the Force, deepening the cloud that limits Jedi perception. and the clones have no malice, no hatred, not the slightest ill intent that might give warning. They are only following orders.

In this case, Order Sixty-Six.

Hold-out blasters appear in clone hands. ARC-170s drop back onto the tails of Jedi starfighters. AT-STs swivel their guns. Turrets on hovertanks swung silently.

Clones open fire, and Jedi die.

All across the galaxy. All at once.

Jedi die.

But you're not arguing directly against what I was saying before. Just read my previous post.

Anyways, how exactly were the droid armies shut down by Darth Vader? Did he just press a switch? Or was it a complex code? Also, the Trade Federation controlled the entire CIS droid armies?

Also, just please read my previous post and reply to it. It explains my objections to your arguements.

[Knife]

So, are you implying that Palpatine would have escaped from the second death star if there was no Anakin or Luke there?

Without Luke tempting the Emperor into thinking he can have Anakin V2.0 without all the damage and emotional baggage, why have the trap set at Endor to get him?

Even if that was true, Palpatine was an old man. He would have died very soon anyways.

I hate the EU, but even still, it's all over the EU that Palpatine was cloning himself to be perpetually in charge for ever.

Could the younglings have possibly survived? Maybe. After all, the spartans could survive and many people can escape from death in extreme life or death situations.

Wha? What Spartans?

However, the prescence of Darth Vader being there doesn't change that either way. The clonetroopers still would have killed them. Maybe they could have escaped, but Vader being there, or not being there, doesn't change anything like that either way. They would have been killed by the clones, end of story.

I already agreed with this idea. His presence there was more about building up to his moment 20 years hence rather than his participation making things happen at the Temple. Anakin being there just set up regret for him later, and further builds the situation between him and Obi-Wan. For Obi-Wan, Anakin killing the Younglings cements in his mind that Anakin isn't the same man, has changed, is someone else. The pain in his voice during the duel on Mustafar shows this, he couldn't kill his friend, but borrowing a phrase from Batman, he didn't have to save him either. Anakin killing Younglings served more for Obi-Wan character development than anything else and builds the tension between the two for both the duel and later on on the DSI 20 years later.

Do you agree with me that Mace Windu would have killed Sidious if Qui gon jinn hadn't taken Anakin to Coruscant and away from Tattoine?

I don't. Anakin going to Coruscant was the catalyst that led up to all of that. Without Anakin becoming the Jedi, no animosity between him and Mace would happen. No Anakin, no Anakin to come back and report that Palpatine was a Sith. No epic show down in the office. Just as likely that Mace could have been on mission and shot by clones. The point being, that without Anakin, the situation in the Senate Office doesn't happen.

Could Mace Windu kill Palpatine if the two were dropped into an areana and some loud voice yelled "Fight!"? Don't know. I suspect that Palpatine would win, just due to the soliloquy from Yoda I quoted above. Doesn't matter, the office scene was a set up for Anakin to make a choice, and he choose poorly. But, that was something he could make up for 20 years hence. Another time and another place with Force Lightening, someone with their hand chopped off, and the question of what he was going to do about it.

Sure, there still would have been a corrupt senate/corrupt jedi/corrupt republic, but that's better than a mass murdering Sith leader.

I thought you were a apologist of the Empire. That it was good?

A real world analogy is this. People wouldn't want to live in North Korea, despite the corruptions that are over here in America.

I don't understand you're analogy. Either way, it is folly to compare themes in movies with 'real life'. You can usually do it with movie strategy, or battles, or politics. But not themes. Star Wars at it's heart is good versus evil. A very simplistic thing that doesn't translate to 'real life'. Evil people do evil things and it is up to the good guys to choose to do something about it. When offered a way out of it, the good people refuse. In Star Wars, Anakin Skywalker was given a choice once to do it the easy way and he took it. Evil shit happened until one day with his son, the choice was presented to him again, and he did it the right was that time and was redeemed.

That just doesn't happen in real life, or if it did, no body cares and it has no effect on major events.

[Knife]

But you're not arguing directly against what I was saying before. Just read my previous post.

My intent was to put relevant information there for all sides. Sometimes the basics are forgotten in a debate. My quote from the book shows exactly what Order 66 was and what it was for, as well as the intent of the Clone Wars.

Anyways, how exactly were the droid armies shut down by Darth Vader? Did he just press a switch? Or was it a complex code? Also, the Trade Federation controlled the entire CIS droid armies?

Here is a problem, you either cannot read or have a comprehension problem...

Not the end-the Clone Wars will end some few hours from now, when a coded signal, sent by Nute Gunray from the secret Separatist bunker on Mustafar, deactivates every combat droid in the galaxy at once-but the climax.

Nute Gunray shut down the droids, not Darth Vader. So yes, apparently the TF did control the droid armies. Did some of the other CIS people know the codes? Who knows. What was the code? Who cares.

Also, just please read my previous post and reply to it. It explains my objections to your arguements.

I did. You can't expect immediate responses dude. Especially since I'm trying to give good, reasoned responses with references. To tell you the truth, your one or two sentence responses are really underwhelming and I'm starting to think it's not worth the effort.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

So, are you implying that Palpatine would have escaped from the second death star if there was no Anakin or Luke there?

Without Luke tempting the Emperor into thinking he can have Anakin V2.0 without all the damage and emotional baggage, why have the trap set at Endor to get him?

Even if that was true, Palpatine was an old man. He would have died very soon anyways.

I hate the EU, but even still, it's all over the EU that Palpatine was cloning himself to be perpetually in charge for ever.

Could the younglings have possibly survived? Maybe. After all, the spartans could survive and many people can escape from death in extreme life or death situations.

Wha? What Spartans?

However, the prescence of Darth Vader being there doesn't change that either way. The clonetroopers still would have killed them. Maybe they could have escaped, but Vader being there, or not being there, doesn't change anything like that either way. They would have been killed by the clones, end of story.

I already agreed with this idea. His presence there was more about building up to his moment 20 years hence rather than his participation making things happen at the Temple. Anakin being there just set up regret for him later, and further builds the situation between him and Obi-Wan. For Obi-Wan, Anakin killing the Younglings cements in his mind that Anakin isn't the same man, has changed, is someone else. The pain in his voice during the duel on Mustafar shows this, he couldn't kill his friend, but borrowing a phrase from Batman, he didn't have to save him either. Anakin killing Younglings served more for Obi-Wan character development than anything else and builds the tension between the two for both the duel and later on on the DSI 20 years later.

Do you agree with me that Mace Windu would have killed Sidious if Qui gon jinn hadn't taken Anakin to Coruscant and away from Tattoine?

I don't. Anakin going to Coruscant was the catalyst that led up to all of that. Without Anakin becoming the Jedi, no animosity between him and Mace would happen. No Anakin, no Anakin to come back and report that Palpatine was a Sith. No epic show down in the office. Just as likely that Mace could have been on mission and shot by clones. The point being, that without Anakin, the situation in the Senate Office doesn't happen.

Could Mace Windu kill Palpatine if the two were dropped into an areana and some loud voice yelled "Fight!"? Don't know. I suspect that Palpatine would win, just due to the soliloquy from Yoda I quoted above. Doesn't matter, the office scene was a set up for Anakin to make a choice, and he choose poorly. But, that was something he could make up for 20 years hence. Another time and another place with Force Lightening, someone with their hand chopped off, and the question of what he was going to do about it.

Sure, there still would have been a corrupt senate/corrupt jedi/corrupt republic, but that's better than a mass murdering Sith leader.

I thought you were a apologist of the Empire. That it was good?

A real world analogy is this. People wouldn't want to live in North Korea, despite the corruptions that are over here in America.

I don't understand you're analogy. Either way, it is folly to compare themes in movies with 'real life'. You can usually do it with movie strategy, or battles, or politics. But not themes. Star Wars at it's heart is good versus evil. A very simplistic thing that doesn't translate to 'real life'. Evil people do evil things and it is up to the good guys to choose to do something about it. When offered a way out of it, the good people refuse. In Star Wars, Anakin Skywalker was given a choice once to do it the easy way and he took it. Evil shit happened until one day with his son, the choice was presented to him again, and he did it the right was that time and was redeemed.

That just doesn't happen in real life, or if it did, no body cares and it has no effect on major events.

I'm not sure if Palpatine had discovered Plageuis's secret to immortality, but here it goes.

You had argued that without Anakin, Palpatine would have lived. My counterarguement was that Palpatine was an old man that was going to die soon anyways, so that didn't really matter all that much if Anakin had killed him or not. Your counterarguement was that Palpatine had that whole clone transfer essence thing going on, which I know about from researching the EU.

However, Anakin killing Palpatine doesn't stop him from coming back in clone bodies. And, besides, Palpatine's clone bodies were killed anyway at one point, once and for all, but Anakin really doesn't stop him from becoming immortal and taking over the galaxy again at all. Anakin doesn't interfere with Palpatine's immortality plan.

You still didn't really explain yourself all that good about Palpatine escaping from the DS2 without Anakin or Luke being there.

Yes, that's what I was saying beforehand about Mace Windu and Palpatine. Without Anakin being there, there would be no great showdown at the Chancellor's office between Mace Windu and Palpatine, because Palpatine wouldn't go to tell Anakin, and Anakin wouldn't have reported Palpatine to Mace Windu, and so on and so forth.

However, Mace Windu might still have found out about Palpatine's true identity as Darth Sidious even without Anakin. And don't tell me that the Jedi's minds were clouded by the darkside, they were still a threat to Palps. If that wasn't true, he wouldn't have killed them off during Order 66.

And, fine, suppose that Mace Windu never finds out, where would he be during Order 66? At the Jedi Temple? Fine. And suppose that he does survive Order 66 over there.

Anakin Skywalker was not the only person that could kill Darth Sidious. This may sound like a stretch, but I believe that strongly.

For example, in the OT, Ben Kenobi and Yoda want Luke Skywalker to go and kill Darth Vader and Darth Sidious. That's why Luke Skywalker was called the galaxy's "a new hope". He was the only Force-user that could kill the two Sith Lords that were ruling the galaxy. And, had luke failed, Princess leia organa would have to do his job-to kill Darth Sidious and Anakin Skywalker.

"The destruction of the Jedi plunged the galaxy into darkness, with the Dark Lords of the Sith in control. Obi-Wan Kenobi, during his confrontation with Vader on Mustafar, stated that he believed Anakin was indeed the Chosen One, but that his destiny had been altered, and the prophecy left unfulfilled. Yoda and Obi-Wan then looked towards the offspring of Anakin to one day overthrow the Sith, possibly hoping they would fulfill the prophecy instead.[6]"-To quote from Wookiepedia

Anyways, you see? Even though Anakin killed Sidious in the end, it's possible that the Skywalker twins could have done that too, even though in the end, it was Anakin Skywalker who did that. Yoda and Ben wouldn't have trained Luke-for so long if only Anakin could kill Sidious.

And, therefore, Mace windu could have killed Sidious too. Yoda could have killed Sidious. His comments to Obi wan kenobi that "you will die" are non canon, since it's contradicted by the film. And, either way, going by Yoda's ROTS quotes, Yoda could have killed the Emperor too.

My point is, there could/would have been a different Chosen One without Anakin Skywalker.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

But you're not arguing directly against what I was saying before. Just read my previous post.

My intent was to put relevant information there for all sides. Sometimes the basics are forgotten in a debate. My quote from the book shows exactly what Order 66 was and what it was for, as well as the intent of the Clone Wars.

Anyways, how exactly were the droid armies shut down by Darth Vader? Did he just press a switch? Or was it a complex code? Also, the Trade Federation controlled the entire CIS droid armies?

Here is a problem, you either cannot read or have a comprehension problem...

Not the end-the Clone Wars will end some few hours from now, when a coded signal, sent by Nute Gunray from the secret Separatist bunker on Mustafar, deactivates every combat droid in the galaxy at once-but the climax.

Nute Gunray shut down the droids, not Darth Vader. So yes, apparently the TF did control the droid armies. Did some of the other CIS people know the codes? Who knows. What was the code? Who cares.

Also, just please read my previous post and reply to it. It explains my objections to your arguements.

I did. You can't expect immediate responses dude. Especially since I'm trying to give good, reasoned responses with references. To tell you the truth, your one or two sentence responses are really underwhelming and I'm starting to think it's not worth the effort.

Darth Vader was send to Mustafar to end the Clone Wars. He shuts down the CIS droid armies on Mustafar.

And to quote Wookipedia.

"
Palpatine then ordered Vader to send a deactivation signal, which was, ironically, originally developed by Geonosian engineer Gizor Dellso (who would attempt to rebuild the CIS Droid Army on Mustufar many years later) to prevent anyone from using the Droid Army against them. Gizor Dellso himself was at one point on Mustafar, but managed to avoid being killed by Vader.

The signal was activated and the vast majority of the Confederacy's military strength (which was largely made up of droids) simply shut down, forcing over 99% of the CIS forts and planets to surrender to the Republic, and bringing the Separatist movement to an quick end. With the extermination of their leadership and the prompt-shutdown of most of their forces, the Trade Federation, Techno Union, Commerce Guild, and Corporate Alliance surrendered or dissolved, and their assets were soon subsumed by the Galactic Empire.[4]"

And, also, "Darth Vader kills Nute Gunray, bringing an end to the Clone Wars".

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Sorry. Double Post. My bad. Please delete this, mods. Thank You!

[Knife]

I'm not sure if Palpatine had discovered Plageuis's secret to immortality, but here it goes.

Whether or not he knows Plageuis's secret, he figured out something since he clones himself on Biss in Dark Empire.

You had argued that without Anakin, Palpatine would have lived. My counterarguement was that Palpatine was an old man that was going to die soon anyways, so that didn't really matter all that much if Anakin had killed him or not. Your counterarguement was that Palpatine had that whole clone transfer essence thing going on, which I know about from researching the EU.

That does seem to be the argument, yes.

However, Anakin killing Palpatine doesn't stop him from coming back in clone bodies. And, besides, Palpatine's clone bodies were killed anyway at one point, once and for all, but Anakin really doesn't stop him from becoming immortal and taking over the galaxy again at all. Anakin doesn't interfere with Palpatine's immortality plan.

Anakin's sacrifice and redemption does end the GE, since after the defeat at Endor, the GE does fall. So he did in fact stop the Sith. He killed the last two Sith in existence. That the EU has clones of Palpatine later only waters down Anakin's redemption, but does not erase it.

You still didn't really explain yourself all that good about Palpatine escaping from the DS2 without Anakin or Luke being there.

Ok, I'll try again.

The battle of Endor was another Jedi trap, in the same vein of the Clone Wars. It was set up solely to bring Luke Skywalker to the Emperor so that Palpatine could corrupt him and turn him to the darkside, thus getting Palpatine the Chosen One V2.0 instead of a broken, half man half machine Vader. So, if Anakin was never Darth Vader, the Republic still fell, the Jedi Order still destroyed, and the Death Star still being made, but not destroyed by the son of Skywalker, why would Palpatine set up a trap on Endor in the first place?

And if he did, set up a trap to destroy the Alliance, why would it have all the trappings as the trap set to snare Luke? The Emperor slowly destroyed the fleet so that Luke could watch and he could taunt him into anger. Without needed that, why not just let the Imperial fleet open up and annihilate the Rebel Fleet with the DS taking pot shots at anything fleeing?

Most of the major scenes in the movies are set ups for people to make choices, and those choices have consequences down the road for the characters making them. Han Solo choosing to return and help Luke enabled Luke to destroy the first deathstar. Luke running off to help his friends, in conflict with the perceived Jedi wisdom of no attachments and letting fate decide for itself, led to his friends saving him. Luke's choice in that lead to his faith in his friends, that succeeded in destroying the second Deathstar. Luke choosing to die for his beliefs, and for his friends led to Vader understanding his mistake in choosing the wrong way 20 years prior, and led him to make the right choice this time and kill the Emperor.

Yes, that's what I was saying beforehand about Mace Windu and Palpatine. Without Anakin being there, there would be no great showdown at the Chancellor's office between Mace Windu and Palpatine, because Palpatine wouldn't go to tell Anakin, and Anakin wouldn't have reported Palpatine to Mace Windu, and so on and so forth.

However, Mace Windu might still have found out about Palpatine's true identity as Darth Sidious even without Anakin. And don't tell me that the Jedi's minds were clouded by the darkside, they were still a threat to Palps. If that wasn't true, he wouldn't have killed them off during Order 66.

I think the idea was that the Jedi Order was a threat to Palpatine, not individual Jedi. Yoda got away and that fact didn't magically stop the GE from forming. Mace Windu escaping wouldn't have stopped it either.

And, fine, suppose that Mace Windu never finds out, where would he be during Order 66? At the Jedi Temple? Fine. And suppose that he does survive Order 66 over there.

Does he stop being a Jedi like some survivors do? Go into hiding? Do a hail mary to the Senate building and gets shot down by a couple thousand clones? Mace Windu living is just one Jedi living. He is powerful, yes, but that's not the point. He is one Jedi, alone. Not a powerful Order, not organized, and Palpatine has the organization, bureaucracy, and weight of the galactic republic behind him. Order 66 was about destroying an organization, not individuals.

Anakin Skywalker was not the only person that could kill Darth Sidious. This may sound like a stretch, but I believe that strongly.

You may believe it but have done a poor job of showing why or how.

For example, in the OT, Ben Kenobi and Yoda want Luke Skywalker to go and kill Darth Vader and Darth Sidious. That's why Luke Skywalker was called the galaxy's "a new hope". He was the only Force-user that could kill the two Sith Lords that were ruling the galaxy. And, had luke failed, Princess leia organa would have to do his job-to kill Darth Sidious and Anakin Skywalker.

Was Luke's destiny to be a warrior savior to kill the bad guy the 'New Hope'?

I would submit that the lessons learned by Yoda about change, evolution, and not stagnation was the 'New Hope'. Not another classically trained Jedi hoping around twirling their lightsaber being the Paladin of the Republic, rather a servant of the light, doing the right thing, trusting in others to do what is right and helping them when necessary. A new Jedi Order, reset, to oppose the Emperor, not a super soldier.

"The destruction of the Jedi plunged the galaxy into darkness, with the Dark Lords of the Sith in control. Obi-Wan Kenobi, during his confrontation with Vader on Mustafar, stated that he believed Anakin was indeed the Chosen One, but that his destiny had been altered, and the prophecy left unfulfilled. Yoda and Obi-Wan then looked towards the offspring of Anakin to one day overthrow the Sith, possibly hoping they would fulfill the prophecy instead.[6]"-To quote from Wookiepedia

We know that Yoda thinks the Jedi have misunderstood the prophecy. We know that Obi-Wan misunderstands it too. On Mustafar he was yelling at Anakin that he was supposed to destroy the Sith, not join them. Well, he did both actually.

Anyways, you see? Even though Anakin killed Sidious in the end, it's possible that the Skywalker twins could have done that too, even though in the end, it was Anakin Skywalker who did that. Yoda and Ben wouldn't have trained Luke-for so long if only Anakin could kill Sidious.[/qoute]

Did you miss the part in RotJ where the Emperor was shocking the shit out of Luke on the floor? Luke couldn't kill the Emperor anymore than Obi-Wan could. Hell, in a straight up fight, I don't think Vader could kill Palpatine. But it is not like Palpatine killed his master in a dueling area either. The Sith ate their own, the Banite order still failed, the two Sith fought each other with underhandedness and ended up killing the Sith empire again.

And, therefore, Mace windu could have killed Sidious too.

Does not follow.

Yoda could have killed Sidious.

Again, did you watch the movie?

Yoda v Palpatine was the 'duel in the arena' bit and Yoda had his ass handed to him. He admits he lost, admits he could not win, admits he was wrong in ever thinking he could.

His comments to Obi wan kenobi that "you will die" are non canon, since it's contradicted by the film.

How is it contradicted?

And, either way, going by Yoda's ROTS quotes, Yoda could have killed the Emperor too.

Wha? By Yoda's quotes and actual film footage, Yoda got man handled by the Emperor. Where is this weirdness coming from?

My point is, there could/would have been a different Chosen One without Anakin Skywalker.

Uhm, Anakin was the 'Chosen One' specifically to bring about the Empire and then destroy it 20 years later. I suppose some other dude could be the 'Chosen One' but since the roll was to bring about the GE and then destroy it later, they'd have to go through the same events so the only thing that changes is the name.

[Knife]

Darth Vader was send to Mustafar to end the Clone Wars. He shuts down the CIS droid armies on Mustafar.

And to quote Wookipedia.

"
Palpatine then ordered Vader to send a deactivation signal, which was, ironically, originally developed by Geonosian engineer Gizor Dellso (who would attempt to rebuild the CIS Droid Army on Mustufar many years later) to prevent anyone from using the Droid Army against them. Gizor Dellso himself was at one point on Mustafar, but managed to avoid being killed by Vader.

The signal was activated and the vast majority of the Confederacy's military strength (which was largely made up of droids) simply shut down, forcing over 99% of the CIS forts and planets to surrender to the Republic, and bringing the Separatist movement to an quick end. With the extermination of their leadership and the prompt-shutdown of most of their forces, the Trade Federation, Techno Union, Commerce Guild, and Corporate Alliance surrendered or dissolved, and their assets were soon subsumed by the Galactic Empire.[4]"

And, also, "Darth Vader kills Nute Gunray, bringing an end to the Clone Wars".

LoL,

Wookiepedia>actual novel now huh?

[Knife]

"Yes, indeed. thanks in great part, to you, Viceroy, and to your associates of the Techno Union and IBC. And, of course, Arch duke Poggle. you have all performed magnificently. Have your droid armies completed shutdown?"

"Yes, my lord. Nearly an hour ago."

"Excellent! you will be handsomely rewarded. has my new apprentice, Darth Vader, arrived?"

"His ship touched down only a moment ago."

"Good, good," the holoscan of the cloaked man said pleasantly. "I have left your reward in his hands. He will take care of you."

The door cycled open.

A tall cloaked figure, slim but broad-shouldered, face shadowed by the heavy hood, stood in the doorway.

San Hill beat the others to the greeting. "Welcome, Lord Vader!"...

So Nute shut the droid army down an hour before Vader arrived on Mustafar. Fuck Wookiepedia.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

I'm not sure if Palpatine had discovered Plageuis's secret to immortality, but here it goes.

Whether or not he knows Plageuis's secret, he figured out something since he clones himself on Biss in Dark Empire.

You had argued that without Anakin, Palpatine would have lived. My counterarguement was that Palpatine was an old man that was going to die soon anyways, so that didn't really matter all that much if Anakin had killed him or not. Your counterarguement was that Palpatine had that whole clone transfer essence thing going on, which I know about from researching the EU.

That does seem to be the argument, yes.

However, Anakin killing Palpatine doesn't stop him from coming back in clone bodies. And, besides, Palpatine's clone bodies were killed anyway at one point, once and for all, but Anakin really doesn't stop him from becoming immortal and taking over the galaxy again at all. Anakin doesn't interfere with Palpatine's immortality plan.

Anakin's sacrifice and redemption does end the GE, since after the defeat at Endor, the GE does fall. So he did in fact stop the Sith. He killed the last two Sith in existence. That the EU has clones of Palpatine later only waters down Anakin's redemption, but does not erase it.

You still didn't really explain yourself all that good about Palpatine escaping from the DS2 without Anakin or Luke being there.

Ok, I'll try again.

The battle of Endor was another Jedi trap, in the same vein of the Clone Wars. It was set up solely to bring Luke Skywalker to the Emperor so that Palpatine could corrupt him and turn him to the darkside, thus getting Palpatine the Chosen One V2.0 instead of a broken, half man half machine Vader. So, if Anakin was never Darth Vader, the Republic still fell, the Jedi Order still destroyed, and the Death Star still being made, but not destroyed by the son of Skywalker, why would Palpatine set up a trap on Endor in the first place?

And if he did, set up a trap to destroy the Alliance, why would it have all the trappings as the trap set to snare Luke? The Emperor slowly destroyed the fleet so that Luke could watch and he could taunt him into anger. Without needed that, why not just let the Imperial fleet open up and annihilate the Rebel Fleet with the DS taking pot shots at anything fleeing?

Most of the major scenes in the movies are set ups for people to make choices, and those choices have consequences down the road for the characters making them. Han Solo choosing to return and help Luke enabled Luke to destroy the first deathstar. Luke running off to help his friends, in conflict with the perceived Jedi wisdom of no attachments and letting fate decide for itself, led to his friends saving him. Luke's choice in that lead to his faith in his friends, that succeeded in destroying the second Deathstar. Luke choosing to die for his beliefs, and for his friends led to Vader understanding his mistake in choosing the wrong way 20 years prior, and led him to make the right choice this time and kill the Emperor.

Yes, that's what I was saying beforehand about Mace Windu and Palpatine. Without Anakin being there, there would be no great showdown at the Chancellor's office between Mace Windu and Palpatine, because Palpatine wouldn't go to tell Anakin, and Anakin wouldn't have reported Palpatine to Mace Windu, and so on and so forth.

However, Mace Windu might still have found out about Palpatine's true identity as Darth Sidious even without Anakin. And don't tell me that the Jedi's minds were clouded by the darkside, they were still a threat to Palps. If that wasn't true, he wouldn't have killed them off during Order 66.

I think the idea was that the Jedi Order was a threat to Palpatine, not individual Jedi. Yoda got away and that fact didn't magically stop the GE from forming. Mace Windu escaping wouldn't have stopped it either.

And, fine, suppose that Mace Windu never finds out, where would he be during Order 66? At the Jedi Temple? Fine. And suppose that he does survive Order 66 over there.

Does he stop being a Jedi like some survivors do? Go into hiding? Do a hail mary to the Senate building and gets shot down by a couple thousand clones? Mace Windu living is just one Jedi living. He is powerful, yes, but that's not the point. He is one Jedi, alone. Not a powerful Order, not organized, and Palpatine has the organization, bureaucracy, and weight of the galactic republic behind him. Order 66 was about destroying an organization, not individuals.

Anakin Skywalker was not the only person that could kill Darth Sidious. This may sound like a stretch, but I believe that strongly.

You may believe it but have done a poor job of showing why or how.

For example, in the OT, Ben Kenobi and Yoda want Luke Skywalker to go and kill Darth Vader and Darth Sidious. That's why Luke Skywalker was called the galaxy's "a new hope". He was the only Force-user that could kill the two Sith Lords that were ruling the galaxy. And, had luke failed, Princess leia organa would have to do his job-to kill Darth Sidious and Anakin Skywalker.

Was Luke's destiny to be a warrior savior to kill the bad guy the 'New Hope'?

I would submit that the lessons learned by Yoda about change, evolution, and not stagnation was the 'New Hope'. Not another classically trained Jedi hoping around twirling their lightsaber being the Paladin of the Republic, rather a servant of the light, doing the right thing, trusting in others to do what is right and helping them when necessary. A new Jedi Order, reset, to oppose the Emperor, not a super soldier.

"The destruction of the Jedi plunged the galaxy into darkness, with the Dark Lords of the Sith in control. Obi-Wan Kenobi, during his confrontation with Vader on Mustafar, stated that he believed Anakin was indeed the Chosen One, but that his destiny had been altered, and the prophecy left unfulfilled. Yoda and Obi-Wan then looked towards the offspring of Anakin to one day overthrow the Sith, possibly hoping they would fulfill the prophecy instead.[6]"-To quote from Wookiepedia

We know that Yoda thinks the Jedi have misunderstood the prophecy. We know that Obi-Wan misunderstands it too. On Mustafar he was yelling at Anakin that he was supposed to destroy the Sith, not join them. Well, he did both actually.

Anyways, you see? Even though Anakin killed Sidious in the end, it's possible that the Skywalker twins could have done that too, even though in the end, it was Anakin Skywalker who did that. Yoda and Ben wouldn't have trained Luke-for so long if only Anakin could kill Sidious.[/qoute]

Did you miss the part in RotJ where the Emperor was shocking the shit out of Luke on the floor? Luke couldn't kill the Emperor anymore than Obi-Wan could. Hell, in a straight up fight, I don't think Vader could kill Palpatine. But it is not like Palpatine killed his master in a dueling area either. The Sith ate their own, the Banite order still failed, the two Sith fought each other with underhandedness and ended up killing the Sith empire again.

And, therefore, Mace windu could have killed Sidious too.

Does not follow.

Yoda could have killed Sidious.

Again, did you watch the movie?

Yoda v Palpatine was the 'duel in the arena' bit and Yoda had his ass handed to him. He admits he lost, admits he could not win, admits he was wrong in ever thinking he could.

His comments to Obi wan kenobi that "you will die" are non canon, since it's contradicted by the film.

How is it contradicted?

And, either way, going by Yoda's ROTS quotes, Yoda could have killed the Emperor too.

Wha? By Yoda's quotes and actual film footage, Yoda got man handled by the Emperor. Where is this weirdness coming from?

My point is, there could/would have been a different Chosen One without Anakin Skywalker.

Uhm, Anakin was the 'Chosen One' specifically to bring about the Empire and then destroy it 20 years later. I suppose some other dude could be the 'Chosen One' but since the roll was to bring about the GE and then destroy it later, they'd have to go through the same events so the only thing that changes is the name.

Yes, I noticed that. Anakin Skywalker had both created and destroyed the Galactic Empire. One of SW's major themes is parallels, it's history repeating itself.

Yoda's quotes do not prove that he got man handled by the Emperor. Yoda could have killed the Emperor. It wasn't very likely, but it was still possible. If not, he wouldn't have tried to do so.

Yoda had said those lines in the film. Those book lines aren't canon because, if they were, Yoda would say them in the film. And it does contradict the films, because we watch obi wan kenobi and yoda's entire conversation, and there are no cutaways where he says those lines behind the scenes.

Yes, the Emperor was zapping Luke with his force lightning on the floor. That was very cool special effects that had furthered the storyline a lot with unrealistic fantasy visuals and powers and abilities.

So, according to you, Vader, the Jedi's own Chosen One couldn't kill Sidious in a straight up fight. Well, neither could Luke Skywalker, or Yoda, or Obi wan kenobi for that matter too. So, the only way that Sidious could have been killed was through sneaking up behind him? Well then, by that logic, so could the other guys. Nothing in canon has confirmed that only underhandedness could have killed Palps.

Mace Windu had almost beaten Palpatine in a straight up, fight. Had Anakin never sliced his hand off, he would have landed the killing blow to Lord Sidious. This was made very obvious in the film. That's how Anakin creates the Galactic Empire, as we both agree on, by cutting off Mace Windu's hand.

I'm not sure exactly 100% how Force duels even work. But Vader could have killed Sidious in a Force duel, I think. Had he never been injured in ROTS he would have been twice as powerful as Sidious. George Lucas's quotes only confirm that.

So, some surviving Jedi just give up and go into hiding, IIRC. Well, Mace windu was a very strong willed Jedi/person, so, well, just no. He wouldn't do that. Besides, if that was the case, why even have order 66, if the Jedi would all just go into hiding? Were those Order 66 survivors that Darth Vader hunts down and kills in between ROTS-ANH in the EU a threat to Palpatine's power. Would those Jedi even have tried to kill Palpatine?

As I had said before, Mace Windu had almost beaten Sidious in a straight up fight, and he could have done that if Anakin wasn't there to stop him. So, without any Anakin, and if Mace Windu survives Order 66, he could have killed the Emperor in a straight up fight.

[Crazedwraith]

LoL,

Wookiepedia>actual novel now huh?

Actually, no. The actual move> the novel.

Check it. Anakin kills off the seperatist leaders. Holo-talks to Palpatine who tells him to sent a message to all Trade Fed ship to shut down their droids.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

LoL,

Wookiepedia>actual novel now huh?

Actually, no. The actual move> the novel.

Check it. Anakin kills off the seperatist leaders. Holo-talks to Palpatine who tells him to sent a message to all Trade Fed ship to shut down their droids.

Was it evil for Anakin/Vader to kill the Seperatist leaders or not? After all, that was what had ended the Clone Wars.

And, also, did Anakin/Vader just press a button to shut down their droid armies? Or did he send a specific coded message to them? Sort of like how I'm typing on my computer/laptop right now. And, how exactly did that button/coded message shut down all of their droid armies immediately?

[Crazedwraith]

Anakin didn't need to kill them at all. He could have taken them captive easily.

As to the second. We actually don't see him do it. Or if he actually does it at all. He sees Padmé arriving on the sensor screen right after Palpatine tells him to do it and the scene cuts to her landing.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Anakin didn't need to kill them at all. He could have taken them captive easily.

As to the second. We actually don't see him do it. Or if he actually does it at all. He sees Padmé arriving on the sensor screen right after Palpatine tells him to do it and the scene cuts to her landing.

Darth Vader did shut down the droid armies. What makes you think that he didn't do that? Who else did it?

But killing the Seperatist leaders was the catalyst to ending the Clone Wars. Darth Vader going to Mustafar was what had ended the Clone Wars. He even told that to Padme.

Anyways, BTW, let's also discuss my previous posts about the main topic of this thread-and if qui gon-hadn't rescued anakin from slavery, and the galactic empire being formed.

[Spiderman Fanboy]

Mace Windu could have easily killed Sidious. And, as for Yoda and Obi wan Kenobi, how does one measure/compare their power to Sidious's even? Is this like some sort of video game levels?

Not taking Anakin Skywalker away from slavery and Tattoine gives us that oppurtunity to kill Sidious much earlier on, with no Luke and Leia twin babies that the surviving Jedi go into hiding for about 20 years or so to train!

[Crazedwraith]

Are you some kind of complete idiot incapable of thinking for themselves? And do you intend to keep posting every little thing to pop into your head?

First. Like i said, we never see Vader shut down the droid armies so we have no idea what the procedure was that he used. I said 'if at all' because the scene cut makes it unclear whether he had time to before going outside the greet Padmé. There's no evidence he didn't though in the film and outside sources refer to the droid army shutting down.

The would have ended there and then, regardless of whether Vader had killed the separatist leaders. With their armies shut down and them held captive they weren't going to be fight a war were they?

No part of Palpatine's plan to create the empire really depends on Anakin's participation. That was separate thing he had going on at the same time. No Anakin doesn't necessarily mean no Empire. The only real fail point is the fight with Windu. If that still happens and Palptine genuinely lost and didn't throw the fight, maybe he dies there and there is no empire. But maybe not.

The last part of your post is just gibberish as far as I can tell.

[Batman]

And, also, did Anakin/Vader just press a button to shut down their droid armies? Or did he send a specific coded message to them? Sort of like how I'm typing on my computer/laptop right now.

What difference does it make whether he actually typed in a code or just pressed a single button that, just to make a wild-ass guess, perhaps...sent out same said code?

And, how exactly did that button/coded message shut down all of their droid armies immediately?

Well, if I had to guess I'd say that what with being droids and thus susceptible to being rigged for remote control to begin with and since the whole affair was rigged from the start likely designed to be shut down by remote control anyway, it did so by sending the shutdown signal?