The Rise Galactic Empire: Starring Sidious and Tyranus

[NeoGoomba]

At the end of AotC, let's say that Yoda shows up a little too late to the rescue and Dooku is able to kill Anakin before escaping. With Darth Tyranus proven to be the best available option to Palpatine (at the time), how would the events of "Revenge of the Sith" and beyond play out with Tyranus replacing Vader in the Imperial hierarchy?


(Bear in mind I've read little about Dooku, hence my post. I'm assuming he's a little more than Saruman with a lightsaber)

[Knife]

Like I said in the other thread, Anakin isn't really that important in bringing the GE into existence. Sure, betraying Windu and chopping off his hand helped, as did slicing up some Younglings, but Order 66 would have happened and more than likely succeeded without Anakin. Anakin was needed to betray and destroy the Sith two decades later. So, to answer the question, eventually it would have just been the GE with Sidious when Dooku tried to make his move.

[NeoGoomba]

Like I said in the other thread, Anakin isn't really that important in bringing the GE into existence. Sure, betraying Windu and chopping off his hand helped, as did slicing up some Younglings, but Order 66 would have happened and more than likely succeeded without Anakin. Anakin was needed to betray and destroy the Sith two decades later. So, to answer the question, eventually it would have just been the GE with Sidious when Dooku tried to make his move.

Oh I'm aware of that. I was thinking more along the lines of what Tyranus would bring to the table as part of the "legitimate" government as opposed to Vader. If I'm not mistaken (and I very well could be), Dooku was already somewhat of an established statesman/popular figure pre-Clone Wars, correct? I have a hard time picturing Palpatine using him like he did Vader. Sure, with his formidable abilities he could be used in an enforcer capacity, but could he also have become an Imperial statesman or sorts?

Gather round the comlink, kids. It's fireside chat time with Uncle Dooku.

[Darth Tanner]

I'd imagine Dooku is going to have to die to end the Clones Wars successfully in Palpatines favour. He doesn't really want someone with that much knowledge of his plan hanging around let alone how unpopular Dooku likely is amongst the Republic/Empire as being the public face of the enemy. Stalin wouldn't have just let his sidekick Hitler join the Politburo even if they had an evil secret plan to wage WW2 together.

Option A is the Jedi get some good intel on where he is hiding and take him down just prior to order 66 kicking off.
Option B is Palpatine stabs him to death himself.

Either way Dooku has fulfilled his usefulness in creating the big bad Separatists to force a situation that gives Palpatine the excuse to seize more and more power. Once that's done he serves no more purpose except as a risk to Palpatines secret.

[Ralin]

This is just me spitballing ideas for now, but I wonder if there would be any possible way for Dooku to take control of the Jedi Order or substantial fraction thereof? Because as a former Jedi Master who still seemed to retain a fair amount of respect even within the Order itself that seems like something he could bring to the table and/or use as a trump card against Palpatine. Obviously this goes against the Sith master plan, but let's suppose he tosses Palpatine the finger at a key moment and manages to actually win the war against the Republic. Given a choice making a deal to accept rule by Dooku and going underground or fighting a losing war against the now victorious Separatists...I could see them making a deal with a new government led by him.

Granted, this is a lot of ifs and assumptions. Trying to turn it over in my head for a way it could work. Maybe without Anakin to groom as a replacement Palpatine gives Dooku a better introduction to Sith secrets and training instead of just stringing him along?

Alternatively, let's suppose Palpatine decides not to kill Dooku. Suppose they conspire to end the war by publically reaching an accord, with Dooku being rehabilitated and adopted into the new government. Maybe Dooku could work as a way to subvert the Jedi, or as a means to recruit the younger ones who weren't on the front lines when Order 66 comes down? Would make for an interesting alternate Empire with an entire cadre of corrupted Jedi led by an actual Sith.

Getting far afield from canon, I know. Like I said, just spitballing ideas at 3:00 AM in the morning.

[Knife]

IIRC, in the RotS novelization, Dooku was thinking something like that when he was fighting Obi Wan and Anakin. Dooku was just imagining the Republic that inserted Sith instead of Jedi. Palpatine was running the show but Dooku was aiming for being the Head Master of the Sith Council, sitting in the old Jedi Temple.

[Havok]

I don't think it really matters if people knew who Dooku was or not. I mean if people knew Anakin was Darth Vader because he never fell in the lava and didn't have to wear a mask, he still would have been Darth Fucking Vader, even if the public knew him as Anakin. Darth Tyranus would have been just a feared, if not more so as he had none of the hangups and qualms about morality that Anakin had. He also didn't have the obvious built in weakness of his children.

I think if there was one thing that Sidious would have shot down was a school of Sith all getting powerhungry as they grew up and learned. I imagine dealing with one apprentice is quite enough. If we take the EU into account (the far far past being one aspect of the EU I don't just dismiss out of hand) Palpatine knew very well the lessons of the ancient and immediate past.

As I said though, Tyranus is just as, if not more terrifying than Vader. Imagine a mix of Vader and Tarkin and you have Tyranus. The only big difference is that obviously Tyranus would wield far more political power than Vader did already. He would probably want and have a far greater roll in policy and decision making.

There would also probably be no problem with Tyranus/Dooku as a known person being the Emperor's right hand. A simple "The CIS seceded from the Republic because it was no longer working. Together with Count Dooku reformation of the Republic is in our grasp and in this truce Count Dooku has agreed to join us in bringing peace and prosperity to the galaxy by creating the FIRST GALACTIC EMPIRE!" *APPLAUSE* Or whatever. It doesn't really matter at that point as everyone was in Palpatine's pocket already. Who would argue Palpatine or Dooku's followers?

Outside of that, I don't imagine much change happening. The plans that were in place before Dooku was killed are clearly what happened. He probably would have been better suited to carrying things out than Anakin anyway. As I and Knife have been saying recently, Anakin was important to the Jedi, not the Sith or the Empire.

[Ralin]

I think if there was one thing that Sidious would have shot down was a school of Sith all getting powerhungry as they grew up and learned. I imagine dealing with one apprentice is quite enough. If we take the EU into account (the far far past being one aspect of the EU I don't just dismiss out of hand) Palpatine knew very well the lessons of the ancient and immediate past.

Suppose they don't make them Sith? Suppose they just raise a new generation of Jedi whose training and indoctrination includes things like "Preserve the peace and stability of His Imperial Highness's New Order?" i.e., turn them into a sort of supercops in service to the Sith while slowly twisting them into a parody of everything the Order ever stood for?

But yeah, doesn't seem likely.

Really, the best way I can see this working out is for Dooku to hightail it off the Invisible Hand after Obi-wan and Anakin arrive and then just blow the entire ship to hell with them and Palpatine on board.

[Havok]

Well the OP supposes that Anakin is dead before ROTS so Dooku is in no danger. I don't think that Palpatine orchestrates his own kidnapping to lure someone in that is already dead.
If Anakin is dead, Dooku is the only logical Sith Apprentice. There is now no reason to kill Dooku to be replaced nor attempt to separate Anakin and Obi-Wan as again, that is pretty well done.

[Ralin]

Well the OP supposes that Anakin is dead before ROTS so Dooku is in no danger. I don't think that Palpatine orchestrates his own kidnapping to lure someone in that is already dead.
If Anakin is dead, Dooku is the only logical Sith Apprentice. There is now no reason to kill Dooku to be replaced nor attempt to separate Anakin and Obi-Wan as again, that is pretty well done.

Doh. My bad, forgot that.

[lPeregrine]

One big difference would be in reliability/loyalty. Vader is a "safe" apprentice because he's an enforcer, not a leader. Sure, he'd be perfectly content to dispose of Palpatine and rule the galaxy with his son, but he has to recognize that he doesn't have Palpatine's political talents and probably couldn't hold the Empire together in the same way. Keep the father/son issue out of the way and Vader is a nice reliable enforcer and extension of Palpatine's power.

Dooku, on the other hand, does have the leadership ability to consider himself a legitimate replacement for Palpatine, and that makes him much more dangerous as an apprentice. Palpatine is going to have to constantly watch for a plot to overthrow him, and his superior skill in a fight isn't going to make a difference if Dooku tries his own order 66/bombs an entire city from orbit/etc. Dooku might be a useful tool for a while, but in the long run he needs to be replaced with someone less dangerous.

[Havok]

Unless the CW CGI cartoon has established it, there is no non EU source for Dooku wanting to overthrow Palpatine whereas we know that that was indeed Anakin's plan. Not just as he was becoming Vader, but after he became Vader and even still 30 years later in TESB and ROTJ. The only thing that squelched his thirst to rule was the death of Padme.

[Kreller1]

Another side to this is that Dooku is an old fart, and if Palpy hasn't taught him how to prolong his life using the Dark Side, he has his work cut out for him trying to stay alive to rule anything.

[Ralin]

Another side to this is that Dooku is an old fart, and if Palpy hasn't taught him how to prolong his life using the Dark Side, he has his work cut out for him trying to stay alive to rule anything.

Pretty sure that's not just a Sith thing? Most of the stuff I've read implies/says Yoda lived so long because of his Force powers. If anything the EU indicates Jedi live longer than Dark Side users because their not drawing on a power source that fucks up their health and body over time, barring clone-hopping shenanigans.

[Metahive]

Unless the CW CGI cartoon has established it, there is no non EU source for Dooku wanting to overthrow Palpatine whereas we know that that was indeed Anakin's plan. Not just as he was becoming Vader, but after he became Vader and even still 30 years later in TESB and ROTJ. The only thing that squelched his thirst to rule was the death of Padme.

When Dooku acquires Savage Oppress (without telling Sidious he's done so, unlike his recruitment of Ventress), he enthusiastically tells him how much they will kick Sidious' ass together once his training is complete, so yes, he's definitely got ambitions. It's only natural considering Sidious is an awful boss who offers very little but demands a lot. Everyone would chafe eventually under such treatment.

[Crazedwraith]

Unless the CW CGI cartoon has established it, there is no non EU source for Dooku wanting to overthrow Palpatine whereas we know that that was indeed Anakin's plan. Not just as he was becoming Vader, but after he became Vader and even still 30 years later in TESB and ROTJ. The only thing that squelched his thirst to rule was the death of Padme.

The CW CGI cartoon is just as much EU as anything else.

And the EU sucks.

[Rogue 9]

Unless the CW CGI cartoon has established it, there is no non EU source for Dooku wanting to overthrow Palpatine whereas we know that that was indeed Anakin's plan. Not just as he was becoming Vader, but after he became Vader and even still 30 years later in TESB and ROTJ. The only thing that squelched his thirst to rule was the death of Padme.

Apart from that being the way of the Sith, of course. It can generally be assumed that any Sith apprentice will eventually try to kill and replace his master, as that's what they do.

[Kreller1]

Another side to this is that Dooku is an old fart, and if Palpy hasn't taught him how to prolong his life using the Dark Side, he has his work cut out for him trying to stay alive to rule anything.

Pretty sure that's not just a Sith thing? Most of the stuff I've read implies/says Yoda lived so long because of his Force powers. If anything the EU indicates Jedi live longer than Dark Side users because their not drawing on a power source that fucks up their health and body over time, barring clone-hopping shenanigans.

Ugh, well I hate the EU, but it may very well state something like that. In RoTS, Palpy tells Anakin about all the "unnatural" stuff that the Darkside can do, and the one life saving power Anakin wants for Padme is something that a Jedi cannot teach him....

[Ralin]

Ugh, well I hate the EU, but it may very well state something like that. In RoTS, Palpy tells Anakin about all the "unnatural" stuff that the Darkside can do, and the one life saving power Anakin wants for Padme is something that a Jedi cannot teach him....

He also says that it was a power only one had achieved. So not really a contradiction.

Plus he could have been lying, though granted Palpatine is more the sort to manipulate by telling the truth.

[Havok]

There is a difference between Yoda, being the most powerful Force user in the galaxy getting a longer life because of that natural power and keeping a normal human like Padme alive with an outside Force power.

And Anakin wanted the power to keep Padme from dying in the here and now. I don't think he was really considering immortality for her.

[Darksider]

Unless the CW CGI cartoon has established it, there is no non EU source for Dooku wanting to overthrow Palpatine

Palpatine certainly seems to be wary of the possibility. He forces Dooku to abandon Ventress because he's afraid that Dooku is training her as a Sith apprentice. Maybe he sensed some sort of intent on Dooku's part?

[Knife]

Anakin wants to change destiny, the one where he saw Padme's death, instead of any health spell. It works in the theme of the movie because it becomes part of a self fulfilling prophecy. Anakin was fighting against his destiny and Padme's which led him right to his and Padme's destiny. In a way, when he later tossed Palpatine off the bridge on the Deathstar, he validated the old Jedi values of accepting loss. If Anakin would have accepted Padme's loss, she probably wouldn't have died, and he would not have turned into a monster. It was the act of not accepting the destiny, the change, that made Anakin do the things that brought the change to happen.

[Saxtonite]

IIRC, in the RotS novelization, Dooku was thinking something like that when he was fighting Obi Wan and Anakin. Dooku was just imagining the Republic that inserted Sith instead of Jedi. Palpatine was running the show but Dooku was aiming for being the Head Master of the Sith Council, sitting in the old Jedi Temple.

He also said (well thought in the novelization) that when captured by the Jedi, Dooku would surrender and renounce the cause of the CIS after finding out the atrocities committed by Grievous, so the CIS would falter without his leadership & the new Galactic Empire would be explicitly humanocentric as opposed to de facto humanocentrism from the core worlds winning the war and being able to force their will on the outer rim worlds......

Dooku was explicitly racist......

[Eleas]

Agreeing with Havok: Palpatine and Dooku had most likely already worked out a plan for how they would bring about Dooku's "redemption". I'm pretty sure Grievous was engineered to be the fall guy on that score: he was the one tasked with all the overt atrocities, and was built up to be the monster, the dark side of the Separatists to balance out Dooku's refined bearing and impassioned speeches about the Republic's complacency and tyranny. After Grievous had died and the Jedi "revealed" as betrayers, it'd be easy to redeem Dooku in the eyes of the public. After all, he'd already built his reputation on taking a moral stand in defiance of reactionary Jedi refusal to act, and it wasn't as if he had committed any true war crimes. Or so it would be spun, I suspect.

I'm pretty sure Palpatine would have preferred Anakin to Dooku, but he clearly wanted someone much like a youthful Dooku in the role of apprentice -- someone with reputation, leadership and personal authority who could act as his right hand and extend his reach across the Galaxy, but who could also be personable and diplomatic when the situation called for it. Instead, due to Obi-Wan's involvement, what he got was a Force-endowed version of General Grievous. I suspect that must have annoyed him, even when all else succeeded.

[Abacus]

Legitimate government? Vader was made the Supreme Commander of the Imperial Military, a title no one took over until Grand Admiral Thrawn. The idea that Dooku would have somehow made a better replacement is flawed -- not to mention that he was the poster child for the Separatist movement; you can't exactly overthrow a republic then place the guy who everyone thought was evil and that they were fighting against on to help head your new Imperial government. It would have been insanely obvious that something was going on and Palpatine would have been forced to face rebellious intent far sooner than he did. In reality, Dooku should have realized that things were going to go bad for him after the war was finished. It seems that he never fully comprehended exactly what Palpatine was doing -- supposing of course that Palpatine ever shared the full details of his master plan with Dooku in the first place -- and could not therefore reason out that due to his role in the Clone Wars he would never be an acceptable public figure in the later government.

Dooku is, was, and always will be the patsy that Palpatine needed to fuel the Separatist movement and act as the agent to bring those different factions together into a coherent opposition. Dooku was the catalyst to getting the Clone Wars started, but he would never be part of the solution after that explosive conflict ended.