Would the Galactic Republic fall without Sidious

[ray245]

There has been quite a lot of complaints about the weakness of the Galactic Republic before it was transformed into the empire. Most people seems to view the Galactic Republic as a political entity that is far from effective in keeping peace and stability.

So, if the Sidious were killed before his time, or the sith deciding not to make a move towards revealing themselves and be more active in undermining the Republic, would the Galactic Republic collapse or be transformed into an empire on its own?

[Ralin]

So, if the Sidious were killed before his time, or the sith deciding not to make a move towards revealing themselves and be more active in undermining the Republic

would the Galactic Republic collapse or be transformed into an empire on its own?

I don't think these two things go well together. I'm not up on the EU for that period, but I always got the impression that the main reason the Republic was so dysfunctional was because of many generations of Sith engineering its problems. Remove Sidious and you still have them doing that in the background. I think a better question would be what would happen if Sidious and Maul had been hit by a meteor on Coruscant midway through "The Phantom Menace."

[Lord Revan]

I dunno about transforming into an empire but the Galactic Republic was living on more or less borrowed time by the time of TPM, while I don't belive that the Galactic Republic was a total disfuntional wreck from the moment it was founded unlike most here, by the time of the prequels it was only a matter of time until the Republic would fall there's no question about it.

EDIT:IIRC the Sith didn't so much cause the problems of the Republic as make the pre-existing problems worse.

[JME2]

Yeah, they only helped the decline along wherever they could.

The Republic would have gone under eventually, even without their interference.

[ray245]

What are the argument that the Republic is on a irreversible fall? Without Sidious's plotting, the major causes for the end of the republic could be easily avoided. The fact that it took Palpatine an engineered galactic scale war just to gain sufficient powers shows how resilient the Republic was.

[Metahive]

No, it wouldn't have fallen without Sidious. Every ailment that plagued the Republic was engineered by him, at least in the movies. Then again, considering the beyond crappy and dysfunctional setup of the senate the only reason it lasted as long as it did is apparently that no one ever seriously tried before (for example, all it takes is a non-senate member to demand one to start a vote of no confidence? BULLSHIT! That means at least one such vote every time the senate convenes at the very least! Filibuster ahoy!).

[ray245]

No, it wouldn't have fallen without Sidious. Every ailment that plagued the Republic was engineered by him, at least in the movies. Then again, considering the beyond crappy and dysfunctional setup of the senate the only reason it lasted as long as it did is apparently that no one ever seriously tried before (for example, all it takes is a non-senate member to demand one to start a vote of no confidence? BULLSHIT! That means at least one such vote every time the senate convenes at the very least! Filibuster ahoy!).

It seems that it would often require the legal ruler of the system to be present in person if the member world wishes to call upon a vote of no confidence. It seems like the senate was quite surprise that a ruler/leader of a system was actually present in the senate meeting.

From what we can tell from the movies, the political events of Episode I was considered to be highly unusual and vote of no confidence seems to be a rather rare thing and beyond belief. This might mean the Republic is working fine if people react in such a manner.

Even when Palpatine was moving to gather more powers for his office, he still met strong opposition. If Padme was around in Coruscant to block the move to grant him emergency powers, the motion could very well not have past.

[Kreller1]

I think the fact that the senate wants to *debate* the blockade of Naboo after the Jedi report the reality of it to the Chancellor pretty much tells us that they are all but a lost cause.
"No, lets appoint a committee to go to Naboo and see if this is really happening, and *then* we can talk about it!" Meanwhile the blockade continues...

[ray245]

I think the fact that the senate wants to *debate* the blockade of Naboo after the Jedi report the reality of it to the Chancellor pretty much tells us that they are all but a lost cause.
"No, lets appoint a committee to go to Naboo and see if this is really happening, and *then* we can talk about it!" Meanwhile the blockade continues...

Yet we see how easily scared the Trade Federation were by the mere presence of Jedi. Without Sidious promising them that they will be safe, the trade federation would have easily back down.

Not to mention if we bring in some EU materials, the reason why the trade federation are so power and have such a big army was because of Sidious's manipulation.

[Metahive]

It seems that it would often require the legal ruler of the system to be present in person if the member world wishes to call upon a vote of no confidence. It seems like the senate was quite surprise that a ruler/leader of a system was actually present in the senate meeting.

So? Is that from that special prequel gusher edition I hear about so often? The one that supposedly doesn't suck as hard as the one I've seen? Because I didn't see evidence for such in that version.

From what we can tell from the movies, the political events of Episode I was considered to be highly unusual and vote of no confidence seems to be a rather rare thing and beyond belief. This might mean the Republic is working fine if people react in such a manner.

I couldn't tell that from the movies at all. I didn't notice any outrage at Padme's rather rash and poorly-thought out motion. What makes you say that?

Even when Palpatine was moving to gather more powers for his office, he still met strong opposition. If Padme was around in Coruscant to block the move to grant him emergency powers, the motion could very well not have past.

Strong opposition as in one single senator. The rest was easily swayed by one gibbering moron's pidgin english. You know, that one single senator could block whatever the government wants so effectively shows that the Republic was pretty dysfunctional.

[ray245]

Strong opposition as in one single senator. The rest was easily swayed by one gibbering moron's pidgin english. You know, that one single senator could block whatever the government wants so effectively shows that the Republic was pretty dysfunctional.

Yet Palpatine wanted to kill her again and again because she was the one leading the opposition against using military/more aggressive means to resolve the separatist issue. However, I guess the main reason why Jar Jar manage to sway most of the senate was because he was her personal aide/co-senator.

If the senate sees that even the strongest opposition's co-representative was in favour of giving the chancellor emergency powers, it is very easily for whatever opposition block to crumble.

[Metahive]

Yet Palpatine wanted to kill her again and again because she was the one leading the opposition against using military/more aggressive means to resolve the separatist issue.

No, it was Nute Gunray who wanted her dead as a price for him and his crew joining the separatists.

However, I guess the main reason why Jar Jar manage to sway most of the senate was because he was her personal aide/co-senator.

If the senate sees that even the strongest opposition's co-representative was in favour of giving the chancellor emergency powers, it is very easily for whatever opposition block to crumble.

What opposition "block"? The movies never show anyone but Amidala being against a standing republican army and Jar Jar being a known buffoon should make people more hesitant to vote for whatever he's pushing, no matter who he's an aide to.

Nobody's asking Jar Jar if what he's doing is in accordance with Padme's wishes, which would definitely the case should there be an oppostion "block". Jar Jar himself never bothers to actually consult Padme before he makes his speech before the senate but he's a braindead idiot so that's in character. That Padme even allowed him to substitute for her shows she's got no political smarts whatsoever. The whole Republic is made up of morons, no wonder it crumbled that easily.

[StarSword]

Do they see Jar-Jar as a buffoon in-universe, or is that your understandable distaste for the character talking?

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

Metahive, remember Amidala's colleagues, Bail Organa, Mon Mothma, and a couple of others who's names I can't remember? The ones who went on to form the core of the Alliance to Restore the Republic? That would be the opposition block that Ray's talking about.

[Havok]

No, it wouldn't have fallen without Sidious. Every ailment that plagued the Republic was engineered by him, at least in the movies. Then again, considering the beyond crappy and dysfunctional setup of the senate the only reason it lasted as long as it did is apparently that no one ever seriously tried before (for example, all it takes is a non-senate member to demand one to start a vote of no confidence? BULLSHIT! That means at least one such vote every time the senate convenes at the very least! Filibuster ahoy!).

While I agree that it would have continued on, Sidious didn't engineer the ailments the Republic had, he merely exploited them.

And seriously, why shouldn't the leader of an entire planet be able to call for a vote of no confidence in the Chancellor? You are also confusing the act of being able to call for the vote with having enough votes to make it worth while and not make yourself look like a fucking idiot.

Sidious also literally had thousands of Senators in his pocket and clearly the invasion of a sovereign world is not only something that doesn't happen often but is something of enough import that it warrants the call for the vote.

And just because Jar Jar is clumsy at 22 years old (TPM) doesn't mean that at 32 (AOTC) and after 10 years in the Senate as Naboo's representative, it automatically means he is a complete idiot or that he knows nothing of politics. I mean did he get any more manipulated by Sidious than Yoda did? Or the rest of the Republic? Or the rest of the Senate?

[Metahive]

Do they see Jar-Jar as a buffoon in-universe, or is that your understandable distaste for the character talking?

OBI-WAN : Why were you banished, Jar Jar?
JAR JAR : Tis a long tale, buta small part wawdabe
mesa...ooooh...aaaa.....clumsy.
[...]
JAR JAR : Mesa cause-ed mabee one or duey lettal bitty axadentes...yud-say
boom da gasser, un crash Der Bosses heyblibber...den banished.

Then they make him general and a senator's aide. Everyone's stupid in the stupid PT.

Metahive, remember Amidala's colleagues, Bail Organa, Mon Mothma, and a couple of others who's names I can't remember? The ones who went on to form the core of the Alliance to Restore the Republic? That would be the opposition block that Ray's talking about.

Where are they when Jar Jar makes his speech? Wouldn't they feel massively betrayed and outraged over Amidala apparently making a complete 180° and stabbing them all in the back? Wouldn't they immediately after the session besiege Jar Jar and angrily demand an explanation? But no, nothing like that happens. The movie never shows a block of opposition, so there isn't one, period.

And seriously, why shouldn't the leader of an entire planet be able to call for a vote of no confidence in the Chancellor? You are also confusing the act of being able to call for the vote with having enough votes to make it worth while and not make yourself look like a fucking idiot.

In any parliamentary system, it's the sole privilege and right of members of parliament to propose such motions. They also need to put forward a valid justification for such a radical step. Letting members outside the parliament propose such motions and do so for rather flimsy reasons would spell doom for the stability of any government. Take Germany's last vote of no confidence for example. There it happened because the ruling coalition broke apart over budgetary quarrels and half the ministers of the government resigned. That's when motions of no confidence are justified.
The Galactc Republic apparently has no such caveats in place. Sorry, I'm not buying that such a crap system could have lasted for thousand years on any functional level. Suspension of disbelief positively smashed.

Amidala should have instructed Palpatine to call for such a motion AND have him deliver clear charges against the government to justify such a vote. I'm also amused by the fact that by forcing reelection she effectively rendered the government inoperable and had to go back to Naboo and right things by herself anyway. Amidala is consistently shown in both the movies and the TV shows to be such a totally inept politician, I really have to wonder about the mental health of those who keep electing her.

Sidious also literally had thousands of Senators in his pocket and clearly the invasion of a sovereign world is not only something that doesn't happen often but is something of enough import that it warrants the call for the vote.

How many senators actually believed that the invasion had taken place? According to the movie no one. No one supports Naboo, no one speaks out against the Trade Federation senator (why has a private organization a senator anyway?), nobody voices objections to the proposed commission. Not even the fucking Jedi, whose testimony as quasi appointed keepers of the peace should have enough weight to force an emergency action on behalf of the government are supporting her! That last bit especially totally blows my mind. The Jedi, who are an objective third party and who have witnessed it all are not vouching for Amidala!
And no, don't tell me they did off-screen. I don't accept such weasely horseshit. When Lott Dodd went on his tirade and deflected the accusations, the Jedi should have stood up and thrown their weight behind Naboo, period. For me the only reason they didn't is that it would have derailed the plot and prevented that big actiony climax from happening. Bad writing with other words.

And just because Jar Jar is clumsy at 22 years old (TPM) doesn't mean that at 32 (AOTC) and after 10 years in the Senate as Naboo's representative, it automatically means he is a complete idiot or that he knows nothing of politics. I mean did he get any more manipulated by Sidious than Yoda did? Or the rest of the Republic? Or the rest of the Senate?

Dude, he allows Palpatine to become effectiively dictator just because he overheard him say something. He never talks directly to Palpatine over the matter, researches if what Palpatine says is true or even consults with anyone over what he's planning to do, not even fucking Amidala, the person he's reporting to! That's not enough evidence for you that he's still a complete moron?

[Havok]

And seriously, why shouldn't the leader of an entire planet be able to call for a vote of no confidence in the Chancellor? You are also confusing the act of being able to call for the vote with having enough votes to make it worth while and not make yourself look like a fucking idiot.

In any parliamentary system, it's the sole privilege and right of members of parliament to propose such motions. They also need to put forward a valid justification for such a radical step. Letting members outside the parliament propose such motions and do so for rather flimsy reasons would spell doom for the stability of any government. Take Germany's last vote of no confidence for example. There it happened because the ruling coalition broke apart over budgetary quarrels and half the ministers of the government resigned. That's when motions of no confidence are justified.
The Galactc Republic apparently has no such caveats in place. Sorry, I'm not buying that such a crap system could have lasted for thousand years on any functional level. Suspension of disbelief positively smashed.

Uh... Senators and sovereign systems make a "parliamentary system" now? Before you make any claims of what kind of a system the Galactic Republic even operates under, you should show proof that you even know in the first place know.
And pparently, the ruler of a planet can call for a vote of no confidence, (y'know, because she did) and only a ruler from the looks of things, whereas the Senators can obviously not or Palpatine would have just done it himself or had one of his Senator cronies do it for him.

And obviously you are completely fucking wrong, because the Republic had already stood for 1000+ years the way it was. Sorry you are a moron that can't accept "not like America, not like Britain". That has nothing to do with SoD, but with your own shortcomings as a viewer.

Amidala should have instructed Palpatine to call for such a motion AND have him deliver clear charges against the government to justify such a vote. I'm also amused by the fact that by forcing reelection she effectively rendered the government inoperable and had to go back to Naboo and right things by herself anyway. Amidala is consistently shown in both the movies and the TV shows to be such a totally inept politician, I really have to wonder about the mental health of those who keep electing her.

First of all, you are aware that Star Wars is not a political drama correct? I mean, you can bitch all you want about this, but what you want is to change the fundamental way the movie was made. If you spend 20 minutes asking for and showing evidence like you suggest, you then have to show how it was gotten and then what effect it has and in doing so you completely alter the movie and shift it from Star Wars to Star Politics. Stop wanting and bitching about things that are impossible to deliver under the premise that you agreed to view the movie under.

Sidious also literally had thousands of Senators in his pocket and clearly the invasion of a sovereign world is not only something that doesn't happen often but is something of enough import that it warrants the call for the vote.

How many senators actually believed that the invasion had taken place? According to the movie no one. No one supports Naboo, no one speaks out against the Trade Federation senator (why has a private organization a senator anyway?), nobody voices objections to the proposed commission. Not even the fucking Jedi, whose testimony as quasi appointed keepers of the peace should have enough weight to force an emergency action on behalf of the government are supporting her! That last bit especially totally blows my mind. The Jedi, who are an objective third party and who have witnessed it all are not vouching for Amidala!
And no, don't tell me they did off-screen. I don't accept such weasely horseshit. When Lott Dodd went on his tirade and deflected the accusations, the Jedi should have stood up and thrown their weight behind Naboo, period. For me the only reason they didn't is that it would have derailed the plot and prevented that big actiony climax from happening. Bad writing with other words.

First of all the Jedi in this situation would in now way be an "objective third party". They were sent by the Chancellor in secret and then escorted the Queen to Coruscant. Where is the objectivity? The objective third party would be the commission numbnuts.

And fucking again you moron, you want to spend a third of the film, if not more, watching people present, argue about and agree with evidence presented to thousands of Senators? This is STAR WARS. There was already too much of the political crap in the movie and you want to add scenes and scenes of more of it. Idiot.

Did you fucking whinge this bad when Tarkin says that the Imperial Senate was dissolved... OFF SCREEN? OMG!!!! WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE THAT THIS WAS A LEGAL ACTION FOR THE EMPEROR TO TAKE?!?1!/1?

And just because Jar Jar is clumsy at 22 years old (TPM) doesn't mean that at 32 (AOTC) and after 10 years in the Senate as Naboo's representative, it automatically means he is a complete idiot or that he knows nothing of politics. I mean did he get any more manipulated by Sidious than Yoda did? Or the rest of the Republic? Or the rest of the Senate?

Dude, he allows Palpatine to become effectiively dictator just because he overheard him say something. He never talks directly to Palpatine over the matter, researches if what Palpatine says is true or even consults with anyone over what he's planning to do, not even fucking Amidala, the person he's reporting to! That's not enough evidence for you that he's still a complete moron?

Way to dodge the question. Was Jar-Jar duped any harder than the oh so brilliant Jedi who were conned into planning a COUP by Palpatine?
And he isn't reporting to Amidalla, he is standing in for her and in case you missed it because you are pretty stupid, the reason for this was because she was hiding out on Naboo in secret, so it's not just like he could dial her up.
Without the Clone Army, the Republic gets obliterated, so what exactly did Jar Jar do that was so moronic?
You need to be able to separate the fact that YOU know that Palpatine is Sidious from the fact that the characters have no fucking clue and they all trust the Chancellor implicitly well up until ROTS.

[Tiriol]

Jar Jar has obviously matured between Episodes I and II. Ok, he still talks funny and gets excited from time to time (but cools off much quicker), but notice how non-clumsy and even subdued he is when compared to the previous movie (and even there he can be very peaceful and thoughtful when needed - witness how future-represantive Binks speaks with Queen Amidala about possible deaths of her citizens and why the Naboo don't like the Gungans). This is one thing that does rub me the wrong way in some places of the Clone Wars series: Jar Jar has clearly, as far as characterization goes, devolved back into Episode I or at least is much more prone to clumsiness and panic than his Episode II appearances would suggest.

Given that so many Senators and even the Jedi High Council was fooled by a Sith Lord, I really don't see how Jar Jar should have avoided his machinations. He was doing what he thought was the best for the Republic - and without the Grand Army of the Republic the Separatists would have been able to dictate the terms of any conflict and/or negotations with ease.

[Havok]

Damnit Tiriol, I just said that.

[Eframepilot]

Would Amidala really have done anything different in Jar Jar's place? How could she not have endorsed the military creation act? The Separatists would have slaughtered the Jedi and overwhelmed the Republic, leading to either an even more extreme act passed by the Senate giving Palpatine more power or to the actual destruction of the Republic and the conquest of the galaxy by the Separatists and their secret leader Darth Sidious. It was a no-win situation.

The Republic would not have fallen without Sidious or an equal threat (another Sith, Vong, etc.), not in the near future. The Jedi would have continued to protect it in its decline and, at the ultimate end, they could have stepped in to reform it without Sidious having Order 66 ready to wipe them out.

[The Disintegrator]

While the machinations of the Sith certainly helped things along, I find it suspect that they were solely responsible. Given the sheer amount of systems that joined up with the Separatists there was clearly some kind of frustration with the Old Republic. I think its safe to say that the Separatist movement would have come about on its own, except without Sidious there wouldn't have been a Grand Army of the Republic to put down the rebellion. So likely the Old Republic would have fractured all together.

[Havok]

The Separatists were financially motivated hence the leaders all being trade, banking and commerce corporations and conglomerates, not ideologically. They operated under the guise of wanting a better government and spouted a lot of "corrupt, decaying Republic" type propoganda, but what they actually wanted was a government they controlled so they would be more profitable and have more power.

There also was literally no movement towards secession before and without Palpatine behind the scenes and Dooku as the figure head pushing for it, let alone that particular group coming together on their own to do it.

[Metahive]

OK, so Jar Jar has, what, four scenes in AOTC and ROTS combined? Take these four or so scenes and demonstrate how he grew in them as a character beyond being the unfunny comic relief. No really, I dare, double-dare you. I need a laugh after reading delusional dribble of this magnitude.

[The Disintegrator]

The Separatists were financially motivated hence the leaders all being trade, banking and commerce corporations and conglomerates, not ideologically. They operated under the guise of wanting a better government and spouted a lot of "corrupt, decaying Republic" type propoganda, but what they actually wanted was a government they controlled so they would be more profitable and have more power.

There also was literally no movement towards secession before and without Palpatine behind the scenes and Dooku as the figure head pushing for it, let alone that particular group coming together on their own to do it.

That may have been where a lot of the Separatist's power base came from, but its hardly the entire CIS. While most of the army was composed of droids, large numbers of organics also joined the CIS cause, many of them not affiliated with one of the corporations involved. Clearly there were people that were frustrated enough to take up arms against the Republic when given the chance.

The reason why Count Dooku was recruited as Darth Tyranus was because Sidious knew he was becoming disillusioned with the Republic. If a Jedi Master is seeing enough flaws with the Republic to leave the Jedi order there were clearly problems with the Republic. Legitimate issues or not, if a Jedi Master is seeing those problems then chances are someone else is too.

Some of the things problems that people might see with the Republic were;
- A Senate that had become extremely corrupt by the Battle of Naboo.
- Corporate entities such as the Trade Federation being given Senate representation.
- Often doing little to prevent slavery.
- Peacekeeping was enforced by a religious order that was not accountable to the public.
- A massive rich-poor divide.

Unless the Republic were to somehow turn itself around, eventually these issues would have manifested themselves into armed rebellion. Sidious may have helped it along, but his intervention hardly seems necessary.

[Darksider]

There also was literally no movement towards secession before and without Palpatine behind the scenes and Dooku as the figure head pushing for it, let alone that particular group coming together on their own to do it.

There was no organized separatist movement before Dooku, but you don't get ten thousand star systems to sign on without some form of discontent with the republic. If it really was that widespread, there's no reason some other ideologue couldn't stir the pot. Without Dooku, there might be an organized movement towards separation at some point, but I don't thing it would happen in the time frame of the movies.