Grand Admiral Thrawn and the Evil Overlord List.

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Jedipilot24
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Grand Admiral Thrawn and the Evil Overlord List.

Post by Jedipilot24 »

We have all heard of the Evil Overlord List. http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
I am going to compare the items on the list with the actions of Grand Admiral Thrawn in the Thrawn Trilogy.
1.My Legions of Terror will have helmets with clear plexiglass visors, not face-concealing ones.
The Stormtroopers are still wearing their face-concealing helmets.
4.Shooting is not too good for my enemies.
Thrawn didn't kill Mara Jade after betraying her; he also didn't kill C'boath even after managing to contain him in a place where his powers didn't work. Killing Niles Ferrier instead of hiring him would have solved quite a few problems.
6.I will not gloat over my enemies' predicament before killing them.
Thrawn gloated to Mara Jade and didn't kill her even after she tried to kill him.
10.I will not interrogate my enemies in the inner sanctum -- a small hotel well outside my borders will work just as well.
Interrogate or imprison for that matter; I am counting both the Cloning Facility and the Chimaera as Thrawn's 'inner sanctum.
C'boath, Mara Jade, and Talon Karrde.
11.I will be secure in my superiority. Therefore, I will feel no need to prove it by leaving clues in the form of riddles or leaving my weaker enemies alive to show they pose no threat.
Thrawn doesn't leave clues but he does leave many of his enemies alive and this comes back to bite him.
12.One of my advisors will be an average five-year-old child. Any flaws in my plan that he is able to spot will be corrected before implementation.
If Thrawn had had one of these he might not have made so many mistakes.
17.When I employ people as advisors, I will occasionally listen to their advice.
Thrawn listened to Pellaeon some of the time but not as often as he should have.
21.I will hire a talented fashion designer to create original uniforms for my Legions of Terror, as opposed to some cheap knock-offs that make them look like Nazi stormtroopers, Roman footsoldiers, or savage Mongol hordes. All were eventually defeated and I want my troops to have a more positive mind-set.
Thrawn's Stormtroopers are still looking very much like Nazi stormtroopers.
22.No matter how tempted I am with the prospect of unlimited power, I will not consume any energy field bigger than my head.
Or employ an insane Jedi Master with mind-bending powers.
23.I will keep a special cache of low-tech weapons and train my troops in their use. That way -- even if the heroes manage to neutralize my power generator and/or render the standard-issue energy weapons useless -- my troops will not be overrun by a handful of savages armed with spears and rocks.
The Wayland Garrison gets owned by the Heroes Of Endor, Mara Jade, a group of Noghri, and two groups of primitive savages.
24.I will maintain a realistic assessment of my strengths and weaknesses. Even though this takes some of the fun out of the job, at least I will never utter the line "No, this cannot be! I AM INVINCIBLE!!!" (After that, death is usually instantaneous.)
To give Thrawn his due he does follow this rule as best he can, such as retreating after his defeat at Sluis Van.
25.No matter how well it would perform, I will never construct any sort of machinery which is completely indestructible except for one small and virtually inaccessible vulnerable spot.
Thrawn doesn't do this either.
27.I will never build only one of anything important. All important systems will have redundant control panels and power supplies. For the same reason I will always carry at least two fully loaded weapons at all times.
Thrawn's entire plan hinged on his own genius and the cloning facility; After both were gone all Pellaeon could do was retreat. But Thrawn did at least make a clone of himself.
30.All bumbling conjurers, clumsy squires, no-talent bards, and cowardly thieves in the land will be preemptively put to death. My foes will surely give up and abandon their quest if they have no source of comic relief.
Niles Ferrier, cowardly thief extraordinaire; his bungling ended up creating the Smuggler's Alliance.
32.I will not fly into a rage and kill a messenger who brings me bad news just to illustrate how evil I really am. Good messengers are hard to come by.
Thrawn, even though he claims to be better than Vader, still uses Vaderite terror toward underlings on occasion.
37.If my trusted lieutenant tells me my Legions of Terror are losing a battle, I will believe him. After all, he's my trusted lieutenant.
Thrawn does trust Pellaeon a great deal but still ignores advice that, if followed, might have made a difference; such as only sending one commando team to Coruscant instead of the two that Pellaeon suggested.
38.If an enemy I have just killed has a younger sibling or offspring anywhere, I will find them and have them killed immediately, instead of waiting for them to grow up harboring feelings of vengeance towards me in my old age.
Thrawn, even after getting suspicious of the Noghri, didn't expect that they would actually turn on him.
39.If I absolutely must ride into battle, I will certainly not ride at the forefront of my Legions of Terror, nor will I seek out my opposite number among his army.
Thrawn is always leading his fleet into battle directly.
40.I will be neither chivalrous nor sporting. If I have an unstoppable superweapon, I will use it as early and as often as possible instead of keeping it in reserve.
All of Thrawn's superweapons are either unreliable (C'boath) or have limited applications (the cloaking device). Neither are unstoppable though and Thrawn certainly isn't chivalrous or sporting. I'll give him this.
44.I will only employ bounty hunters who work for money. Those who work for the pleasure of the hunt tend to do dumb things like even the odds to give the other guy a sporting chance.
Thrawn doesn't hire bounty hunters, he hires smugglers but it's close enough and he does only hire them for money. But he screws this up with Niles Ferrier.
45.I will make sure I have a clear understanding of who is responsible for what in my organization. For example, if my general screws up I will not draw my weapon, point it at him, say "And here is the price for failure," then suddenly turn and kill some random underling.
To give Thrawn his credit, he does attempt to determine who was at fault in the tractor beam incident before assigning blame; and he is more understanding the second time around.
46.If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.
Thrawn's problem tended to be other way around.
48.I will treat any beast which I control through magic or technology with respect and kindness. Thus if the control is ever broken, it will not immediately come after me for revenge.
Does C'boath count?
50.My main computers will have their own special operating system that will be completely incompatible with standard IBM and Macintosh powerbooks.
I'll give Thrawn a pass on this as he does have the Chimaera's computer shut down after realizing that Mara Jade is loose on the ship. It still doesn't stop her though.
54.I will not strike a bargain with a demonic being then attempt to double-cross it simply because I feel like being contrary.
C'boath again!
55.The deformed mutants and odd-ball psychotics will have their place in my Legions of Terror. However before I send them out on important covert missions that require tact and subtlety, I will first see if there is anyone else equally qualified who would attract less attention.
The Noghri aren't either but they did draw a lot of attention. Also, C'boath!
56.My Legions of Terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
The Stormtroopers couldn't capture Luke Skywalker on the one planet in the galaxy where his powers don't work.
57.Before employing any captured artifacts or machinery, I will carefully read the owner's manual.
I'll give Thrawn a pass on this due to his use of ysalamiri in conjunction with the Spaarti cylinders.
58.If it becomes necessary to escape, I will never stop to pose dramatically and toss off a one-liner.
Again, I'll give Thrawn a pass here.
65.If I must have computer systems with publically available terminals, the maps they display of my complex will have a room clearly marked as the Main Control Room. That room will be the Execution Chamber. The actual main control room will be marked as Sewage Overflow Containment.
Only half credit for this because Mara Jade was able to use the computer on the Chimaera before she was detected.
78.I will not tell my Legions of Terror "And he must be taken alive!" The command will be "And try to take him alive if it is reasonably practical."
Thrawn does mostly follow this but still runs in to problems because of his repeated attempts to capture Luke and Leia for C'boath.
80.If my weakest troops fail to eliminate a hero, I will send out my best troops instead of wasting time with progressively stronger ones as he gets closer and closer to my fortress.
Thrawn wastes several Noghri teams before resorting to Imperial Intelligence commandos.
85.I will not use any plan in which the final step is horribly complicated, e.g. "Align the 12 Stones of Power on the sacred altar then activate the medallion at the moment of total eclipse." Instead it will be more along the lines of "Push the button."
Thrawn's plans tend to be of the complex and complicated variety.
88.If a group of henchmen fail miserably at a task, I will not berate them for incompetence then send the same group out to try the task again.
The Noghri.
98.If an attractive young couple enters my realm, I will carefully monitor their activities. If I find they are happy and affectionate, I will ignore them. However if circumstance have forced them together against their will and they spend all their time bickering and criticizing each other except during the intermittent occasions when they are saving each others' lives at which point there are hints of sexual tension, I will immediately order their execution.
Luke Skywalker and Mara Jade; Thrawn not only lets them live but he goes to considerable lengths to piss them both off. Naturally it doesn't end well.
100.Finally, to keep my subjects permanently locked in a mindless trance, I will provide each of them with free unlimited Internet access.
Instead of actually cleaning up Honoghr, Thrawn just has to keep poisoning their world. This makes them ripe for plucking when the daughter of Darth Vader comes calling.
102.I will not waste time making my enemy's death look like an accident -- I'm not accountable to anyone and my other enemies wouldn't believe it.
Instead of just killing Admiral Ackbar, Thrawn tries to have him framed and discredited. All it takes to reverse that is one bored slicer.
103.I will make it clear that I do know the meaning of the word "mercy"; I simply choose not show them any.
Again Thrawn leaves alive enemies that he could kill.
116.If I capture the hero's starship, I will keep it in the landing bay with the ramp down, only a few token guards on duty and a ton of explosives set to go off as soon as it clears the blast-range.
Thrawn captures the Millennium Falcon and puts in storage just in time for Luke, Mara, and Talon Karrde to use it to escape.
130.All members of my Legions of Terror will have professionally tailored uniforms. If the hero knocks a soldier unconscious and steals the uniform, the poor fit will give him away.
Luke, Mara, and Karrde all waltze around the Chimaera in stolen uniforms.
146.If my surveillance reports any un-manned or seemingly innocent ships found where they are not supposed to be, they will be immediately vaporized instead of brought in for salvage.
Again, the Millennium Falcon is captured instead of vaporized.
147.I will classify my lieutenants in three categories: untrusted, trusted, and completely trusted. Promotion to the third category will be awarded posthumously.
Well at least Thrawn manages to do this though he neglected to remove Rukh from the 'trusted' category.
151.I will not set myself up as a god. That perilous position is reserved for my trusted lieutenant.
Thrawn tried to do something close to this with the Noghri; naturally it backfired.
152.I will instruct my fashion designer that when it comes to accessorizing, second-chance body armor goes well with every outfit.
Thrawn apparently isn't wearing armor when he really needs it.
166.If the rebels manage to trick me, I will make a note of what they did so that I do not keep falling for the same trick over and over again.
Thrawn does learn from his mistakes, I'll give him this.
186.I will not devise any scheme in which Part A consists of tricking the hero into unwittingly helping me and Part B consists of laughing at him then leaving him to his own devices.
Thrawn does this to Mara Jade and it backfires. Badly.
188.I will funnel some of my ill-gotten gains into urban renewal projects. Although slums add a quaint and picturesque quality to any city, they too often contain unexpected allies for heroes.
Thrawn would never have been killed if he'd just cleaned up Honoghr.
198.I will remember that any vulnerabilities I have are to be revealed strictly on a need-to-know basis. I will also remember that no one needs to know.
Well at least Thrawn does this.
199.I will not make alliances with those more powerful than myself. Such a person would only double-cross me in my moment of glory. I will make alliances with those less powerful than myself. I will then double-cross them in their moment of glory.
Does C'boath count?
203.I will not employ an evil wizard if he has a sleazy mustache.
Not sure if C'boath has a mustache but he still qualifies: evil, sleazy, and a wizard.
216.If my Legions of Terror are defeated in a battle, I will quietly withdraw and regroup instead of launching a haphazard mission to assassinate the hero.
Well Thrawn does know when to fold, I'll give him this.
226.I will have a staff of competent detectives handy. If I learn that someone in a certain village is plotting against me, I will have them find out who rather than wipe out the entire village in a preemptive strike.
A staff of competent detectives might have found out the Skywalker secret. Maybe.
227.I will never bait a trap with genuine bait.
Bilbringi.
229.If I have several diabolical schemes to destroy the hero, I will set all of them in motion at once rather than wait for them to fail and launch them successively.
Thrawn just launches his plans one after the other.

Are there any that I missed?
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Re: Grand Admiral Thrawn and the Evil Overlord List.

Post by Thanas »

This post is mind-numbingly stupid.
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Re: Grand Admiral Thrawn and the Evil Overlord List.

Post by Abacus »

While some of these apply in specific and special cases, I don't believe Thrawn was quite that fallible in regards to actions that were outside his realm of control. I do agree though, he should have just shot Ferrier the first time he had him. He was not as ruthless as he could have been.
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Re: Grand Admiral Thrawn and the Evil Overlord List.

Post by Thanas »

And that is a good thing, considering just shooting potentially valuable assets is a move so dumb that not even Hitler made it.
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Re: Grand Admiral Thrawn and the Evil Overlord List.

Post by Patroklos »

Yeah. A lot of these critisisms hinge on Thrawn knowing he is in a throw away trash fiction novel where long term planning is not required. Also hindsight.
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Re: Grand Admiral Thrawn and the Evil Overlord List.

Post by Jedipilot24 »

Thanas wrote:And that is a good thing, considering just shooting potentially valuable assets is a move so dumb that not even Hitler made it.
Not even when you piss those assets off so much that they try to kill you? One would think someone as savvy as Thrawn would give Mara Jade a reason to continue working for him and not just rely on a general "Imperial loyalty" that may not be there anymore after nine years. Not trusting her due to her long absence is one thing but even Niles Ferrier got a longer leash than Mara Jade.
Patroklos wrote:Yeah. A lot of these critisisms hinge on Thrawn knowing he is in a throw away trash fiction novel where long term planning is not required.
How?
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Re: Grand Admiral Thrawn and the Evil Overlord List.

Post by Thanas »

Jedipilot24 wrote:
Thanas wrote:And that is a good thing, considering just shooting potentially valuable assets is a move so dumb that not even Hitler made it.
Not even when you piss those assets off so much that they try to kill you? One would think someone as savvy as Thrawn would give Mara Jade a reason to continue working for him and not just rely on a general "Imperial loyalty" that may not be there anymore after nine years. Not trusting her due to her long absence is one thing but even Niles Ferrier got a longer leash than Mara Jade.
If he destroys her now, he loses a potential angle into the smugglers, as well as pissing Karrde off. If he kills her he also cannot clone her or give her to his mad jedi.
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Re: Grand Admiral Thrawn and the Evil Overlord List.

Post by Jedipilot24 »

Thanas wrote:
Jedipilot24 wrote:
Thanas wrote:And that is a good thing, considering just shooting potentially valuable assets is a move so dumb that not even Hitler made it.
Not even when you piss those assets off so much that they try to kill you? One would think someone as savvy as Thrawn would give Mara Jade a reason to continue working for him and not just rely on a general "Imperial loyalty" that may not be there anymore after nine years. Not trusting her due to her long absence is one thing but even Niles Ferrier got a longer leash than Mara Jade.
If he destroys her now, he loses a potential angle into the smugglers, as well as pissing Karrde off. If he kills her he also cannot clone her or give her to his mad jedi.
I am talking about when Thrawn betrayed his word to Mara and captured Karrde. And that did piss Karrde off, enough that he not only gave the New Republic the location of the Katana Fleet but also lent them his personal slicer to clear Ackbar's name.
Mara, naturally, was also pissed off and tried to Force Choke Thrawn but failed due to her being out of practice. Thrawn then assumes that that display is more or less the limits of Mara's abilities, tells her that he's willing to overlook it this time and then just leaves her there, all the while assuming that she's still going to work for him in the future. Is that really the smartest way to cultivate an asset, especially one as dangerous as Mara Jade?
Thrawn's problem is that he doesn't see her as particularly dangerous, he sees her as a glorified courier with delusions of grandeur. Thrawn might have had good reasons for thinking that (namely by knowing about the other Hands) but he's still underestimating her and it's one of the things that comes back to bite him later.
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Re: Grand Admiral Thrawn and the Evil Overlord List.

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I fail to see how any of that would be better served by blasting her right then and there.
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Re: Grand Admiral Thrawn and the Evil Overlord List.

Post by Jedipilot24 »

Thanas wrote:I fail to see how any of that would be better served by blasting her right then and there.
Fine, I'll spell it out for you.
If Thrawn had killed Mara Jade at the same time he captured Talon Karrde:

Luke would have remained on Jomark with C'boath.
Thrawn would have gotten all of the Katana Fleet instead of just most of it.
The New Republic would never have learned about the cloning facility.

All of this leads to...

Thrawn steamrolling the New Republic.
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Re: Grand Admiral Thrawn and the Evil Overlord List.

Post by Batman »

And Thrawn naturally knew all of this would happen because of...
Oh, and given there were all of 200 ships in the Katana fleet I seriously want to know what kind of difference the handful he didn't manage to get his hands on would have made.
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Re: Grand Admiral Thrawn and the Evil Overlord List.

Post by Thanas »

Jedipilot24 wrote:
Thanas wrote:I fail to see how any of that would be better served by blasting her right then and there.
Fine, I'll spell it out for you.
If Thrawn had killed Mara Jade at the same time he captured Talon Karrde:

Luke would have remained on Jomark with C'boath.
Thrawn would have gotten all of the Katana Fleet instead of just most of it.
The New Republic would never have learned about the cloning facility.
And Thrawn would have known this chain of events would happen due to......?

Thrawn steamrolling the New Republic.
Which would have happened anyway if not for Noghri backstab.
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A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
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Re: Grand Admiral Thrawn and the Evil Overlord List.

Post by Tiriol »

Thrawn did a simple error there - he had misjudged Mara Jade's loyalties. It was clear that he thought Jade to still be more loyal to Imperial ideals and the Empire than to her current employer and personal sense of honor. Considering what job Mara did during her Imperial days, Thrawn had every reason to expect she would still be loyal to Imperial authority, not some condescending smuggler kingpin.
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Re: Grand Admiral Thrawn and the Evil Overlord List.

Post by Patroklos »

Jedipilot24 wrote: How?
All these calls of "kill them onsight." We say that because we know they will cause problems later, while Thrawn has no idea whats going to happen and thus their future utility is valued more.

Same with the Millenium Falcon thing. Because we know this is a throw away trash fiction novel its obvious to us that somebody is going to find it and somebody is going to use it and that somebody is going to be one of a small handful of characters and that combination will be a huge nail in the coffin of Thrawn's plans. There is a thousand reasons Thrawn shouldn't destroy it when not filtering his decisions through that fore knowledge, intelligence and propoganda purposes being two that jump out at me.
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Re: Grand Admiral Thrawn and the Evil Overlord List.

Post by Lord Revan »

we must remember that for all his skill Thrawn cannot predict the future, he can make educated guesses sure but he can't tell the future.

the problem with the "evil overlord list" is that it essentially assumes that the characters know that they're in a story.
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Re: Grand Admiral Thrawn and the Evil Overlord List.

Post by Ahriman238 »

The Noghri were his best troops for commando raids, and he used them appropriately. He had no real reason to suspect betrayal.

He listened to Pelleaon, and then did what he was going to anyways, to the Empire's benefit every time.

If he'd shot Ferrier off the bat, he wouldn't get his Dark Force Dreadnaughts. If he'd betrayed and killed Ferrier after taking possession, that'd be pretty evil and wasteful of a criminal contact who has actually been useful. Shooting people for barely any reason is not a great way to convince the galaxy you should be in charge.
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Re: Grand Admiral Thrawn and the Evil Overlord List.

Post by Batman »

Um-I'm not entirely sure why you think Thrawn would have given a damn if people thought he should be in charge as long as he ended up being in charge. I'd have to dig out the Thrawn Trilogy for the exact quote but there was this one sequence where he had an officer disemboweled by the Noghri for a mistake one of the officer's subordinates made on the grounds that apparently, said officer didn't train his subordinates well enough (or it may have been the other way round and the subordinate was killed for being a lousy student, I'm admittedly a bit hazy about that). The point is Thrawn never tried to come across as the Nice Guy. He was the the guy who could ruin your planet despite shields if you didn't side with him.
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Re: Grand Admiral Thrawn and the Evil Overlord List.

Post by Tiriol »

Batman wrote:Um-I'm not entirely sure why you think Thrawn would have given a damn if people thought he should be in charge as long as he ended up being in charge. I'd have to dig out the Thrawn Trilogy for the exact quote but there was this one sequence where he had an officer disemboweled by the Noghri for a mistake one of the officer's subordinates made on the grounds that apparently, said officer didn't train his subordinates well enough (or it may have been the other way round and the subordinate was killed for being a lousy student, I'm admittedly a bit hazy about that). The point is Thrawn never tried to come across as the Nice Guy. He was the the guy who could ruin your planet despite shields if you didn't side with him.
The Noghri killed the younger officer who had made a mistake and tried partially blame his superior and former trainer/cover it up. Thrawn wasn't that impressed. The former trainer was tasked with training a new subordinate for him, if I recall correctly. Thrawn didn't go around killing people who weren't responsible for the bad situation at hand (the novels implied that it was Vader's modus operandi, although in all other literature and media concerning Star Wars, Vader has no compunction about killing those who displease him, but as a general rule he doesn't kill people innocent of the current fiasco - as a GENERAL rule, not that he didn't do it from time to time).
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Re: Grand Admiral Thrawn and the Evil Overlord List.

Post by Abacus »

Also, you don't need a person to be alive in order to clone them. So that argument is out the window.
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Re: Grand Admiral Thrawn and the Evil Overlord List.

Post by Captain Seafort »

Batman wrote:Um-I'm not entirely sure why you think Thrawn would have given a damn if people thought he should be in charge as long as he ended up being in charge.
Because he was smart enough to know that being in charge with the consent of the locals (even if somewhat grudging) is a lot less effort than if they're fighting you tooth and nail. Pellaeon's thoughts at Ukio were clear that Thrawn regarded his courteous manner towards the Ukians after their surrender to be as important to securing the world as C'baoth's trick with the cloaked cruisers.
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Re: Grand Admiral Thrawn and the Evil Overlord List.

Post by Batman »

Captain Seafort wrote:
Batman wrote:Um-I'm not entirely sure why you think Thrawn would have given a damn if people thought he should be in charge as long as he ended up being in charge.
Because he was smart enough to know that being in charge with the consent of the locals (even if somewhat grudging) is a lot less effort than if they're fighting you tooth and nail. Pellaeon's thoughts at Ukio were clear that Thrawn regarded his courteous manner towards the Ukians after their surrender to be as important to securing the world as C'baoth's trick with the cloaked cruisers.
Not quite the same thing, but I can follow your reasoning. Conceded. :D
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Re: Grand Admiral Thrawn and the Evil Overlord List.

Post by Thanas »

Abacus wrote:Also, you don't need a person to be alive in order to clone them. So that argument is out the window.
You probably do need one if you know dick about how to train a Jedi and as a baseline to measure the clone against.
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Re: Grand Admiral Thrawn and the Evil Overlord List.

Post by Ralin »

Lord Revan wrote:the problem with the "evil overlord list" is that it essentially assumes that the characters know that they're in a story.
More to the point, the problem is treating it as anything other than a light joke about action/adventure story tropes that shouldn't be taken very seriously.
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