The Battle Of Hoth The Empire's Most Hollow Victory

[Isolder74]

On the surface The Battle Of Hoth was an overwhelming victory for the Empire. But many rebel personel and equiptment escaped. also Liea, Han and Luke all managed to ecsape as well a many of the top pilot from Rouge Squadron. Although the Millenium Falcon didn't make a clean getaway most of the other valuable rebal leadrers did. What's the consencus here on this?

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

Perhaps the majority of the base personnel didn't escape the ISD fleet, and the Rebels had to spend time building to make up for the lost ships. Otherwise, it wouldn't be a victory.

[Isolder74]

Perhaps the majority of the base personnel didn't escape the ISD fleet, and the Rebels had to spend time building to make up for the lost ships. Otherwise, it wouldn't be a victory.

i did say many. My point was that the most importain personell other than command staff left in that first transport. so the Empire even if the caught all of the other ships lost a gtreat oppertunity. The empire's failing to stop all transports may have been the result of Ozell's arival blunder.

[Mr Bean]

Perhaps the majority of the base personnel didn't escape the ISD fleet, and the Rebels had to spend time building to make up for the lost ships. Otherwise, it wouldn't be a victory.

According to EU 29 Transports 18 were lost

[IRG CommandoJoe]

Do you think there were really that many ships intended to be in the fleet in the movies? In RotJ we still don't see a great increase of ships. How many years was it between movies anyway?

[Mr Bean]

Transports are cheap IRG remeber it takes twenty of them to equal an ISD in just volume and size and around... um 5000000000 to equal it in fire-power

Remeber these where bascily un-armed transports not-disimilar from in use by Shipping Company Transports, not heavly armored military Transports, piles of junk basicly

[Cal Wright]

Transports are cheap IRG remeber it takes twenty of them to equal an ISD in just volume and size and around... um 5000000000 to equal it in fire-power

Remeber these where bascily un-armed transports not-disimilar from in use by Shipping Company Transports, not heavly armored military Transports, piles of junk basicly

Just a side note, I feel that the Gallofrees being described as un armed by far too many EU sorces is wrong. In RotJ, there are plenty of them in the middle of the fight. Why would they be present if they were un armed?

However, Hoth was hollow. In fact, it supports my theory that when a Sith Lord is present, military intelligence just goes down the drain.

[Master of Ossus]

The Battle of Hoth was completely extraneous and unimportant to either side. The real battle was whether or not the Empire could capture or kill Skywalker. Had they been able to, the Rebellion would have been crushed.

[Isolder74]

The Battle of Hoth was completely extraneous and unimportant to either side. The real battle was whether or not the Empire could capture or kill Skywalker. Had they been able to, the Rebellion would have been crushed.

True

[Cal Wright]

The Battle of Hoth was completely extraneous and unimportant to either side. The real battle was whether or not the Empire could capture or kill Skywalker. Had they been able to, the Rebellion would have been crushed.

That's exactly what I think. The Rebels are escaping. What does Vader do? He commands his forces to capture a lone freighter. That MIGHT have Luke on it. At worst, he can use his friends. Which of course, the latter occured.

[Stuart Mackey]

On the surface The Battle Of Hoth was an overwhelming victory for the Empire. But many rebel personel and equiptment escaped. also Liea, Han and Luke all managed to ecsape as well a many of the top pilot from Rouge Squadron. Although the Millenium Falcon didn't make a clean getaway most of the other valuable rebal leadrers did. What's the consencus here on this?

Admiral Ozzel failed Vader in coming out of hyperspace to close to the system, thus alerting the rebels who got off befor a effective blockade could be established. Ozzel died, suffocation apparently.

[Isolder74]

the Empire's ground troops decimated the Rebel defenders. they at least meat all of their objectives. Here is a cool video clip on the subject

http://atomfilms.shockwave.com/af/content/battle_hoth

[Master of Ossus]

On the surface The Battle Of Hoth was an overwhelming victory for the Empire. But many rebel personel and equiptment escaped. also Liea, Han and Luke all managed to ecsape as well a many of the top pilot from Rouge Squadron. Although the Millenium Falcon didn't make a clean getaway most of the other valuable rebal leadrers did. What's the consencus here on this?

Admiral Ozzel failed Vader in coming out of hyperspace to close to the system, thus alerting the rebels who got off befor a effective blockade could be established. Ozzel died, suffocation apparently.

The problem here was not that the rebellion had been totally crushed, but that Skywalker had escaped. If he had not, the rebellion would have failed soon thereafter. The Battle of Hoth was more or less a formality.

[Stuart Mackey]

On the surface The Battle Of Hoth was an overwhelming victory for the Empire. But many rebel personel and equiptment escaped. also Liea, Han and Luke all managed to ecsape as well a many of the top pilot from Rouge Squadron. Although the Millenium Falcon didn't make a clean getaway most of the other valuable rebal leadrers did. What's the consencus here on this?

Admiral Ozzel failed Vader in coming out of hyperspace to close to the system, thus alerting the rebels who got off befor a effective blockade could be established. Ozzel died, suffocation apparently.

The problem here was not that the rebellion had been totally crushed, but that Skywalker had escaped. If he had not, the rebellion would have failed soon thereafter. The Battle of Hoth was more or less a formality.

Catching Luke would not have, in itself, destroyed the rebellion, what would have fucked the rebellion would have been the completion of the DS2.

[Master of Ossus]

Even the DSII was irrelevent, in the grand scheme of things. The Emperor and Vader would not have been killed by the Rebellion, and with Skywalker either on their side or out of the picture the Rebellion would have been crushed utterly.

Note that even the POSSIBILITY of capturing or killing Skywalker was more important to Vader than Death Squadron. Luke is clearly more important than almost anything else, during the Rebellion.

[Stuart Mackey]

Even the DSII was irrelevent, in the grand scheme of things. The Emperor and Vader would not have been killed by the Rebellion, and with Skywalker either on their side or out of the picture the Rebellion would have been crushed utterly.

Note that even the POSSIBILITY of capturing or killing Skywalker was more important to Vader than Death Squadron. Luke is clearly more important than almost anything else, during the Rebellion.

Vader and the Emperor may not have been killed by the Rebellion, but so what? with out the DS2 the rebellion could continue with or with out luke. Luke may have been a jedi, or apprentice jedi and certainly would have be very valuble to the empire, and the rebellion, but he is still one man and even three sith lords are not enough to compleatly control a galaxy indefinatly. For that matter one man cannot by himself destroy a empire, jedi or not, after all look at the rise of Palpatine and the fall of the Jedi order.
The rule of a country/planet/galaxy require more than just one person or a oligarcy, it requires the un/willing co-operation, or at least aquesiance, of a society, Hitlers Germany and the Soviet Union showed us this in vivid clairity.

[Master of Ossus]

Wrong. Only Luke was a threat to the Emperor and Vader. Without him the Rebels would have soon fallen to the inevitable. Remember that DSII was not the only superweapon the Empire was constructing at the time of RotJ. It was not even the only DS. They had TWO more Death Stars under construction around Coruscant.

Further, how would the DSII have allowed the Emperor to destroy the Rebellion more easily? An ISD is already more than capable of terminating a Rebel base, assuming that it can first wipe out the base's defenses. The Rebels really didn't have anything that could stand up to a large fleet of ISD's or similar. DSII was insignificant. If it was destroyed, but Luke had lived, the Empire could have built another one in six months. If it was destroyed and Luke had not lived then the Rebels would not have been able to continue to resist the empire.

[Mr. B]

just curious MoO

It was not even the only DS. They had TWO more Death Stars under construction around Coruscant.

Where does this come from.

[Master of Ossus]

The Illustrated Guide to the SW Universe clearly shows two partially constructed DS's in Coruscant orbit.

[Sea Skimmer]

[Stravo]

The Illustrated Guide to the SW Universe clearly shows two partially constructed DS's in Coruscant orbit.

I thought that illustration came from a conceptual drawing from an early draft of the ROTJ script that had two death stars and Luke would be given one if he turned to the Darkside....I thought i read that somwhere but as usual I can be wrong.

[Stuart Mackey]

Wrong. Only Luke was a threat to the Emperor and Vader. Without him the Rebels would have soon fallen to the inevitable. Remember that DSII was not the only superweapon the Empire was constructing at the time of RotJ. It was not even the only DS. They had TWO more Death Stars under construction around Coruscant.

Thats like saying that Winston Churchill was the man who won the battle of Britain, and was the only one who could kill Hitler.

[quote="Master of Ossus]Further, how would the DSII have allowed the Emperor to destroy the Rebellion more easily? An ISD is already more than capable of terminating a Rebel base, assuming that it can first wipe out the base's defenses. The Rebels really didn't have anything that could stand up to a large fleet of ISD's or similar. DSII was insignificant. If it was destroyed, but Luke had lived, the Empire could have built another one in six months. If it was destroyed and Luke had not lived then the Rebels would not have been able to continue to resist the empire.[/quote]

With or with out Luke the Rebellion would have founderd because the public would not support it through fear of a planet busting battlestation. The DS's were a phcological {sp?} weapon as much as a battle platform and a weapon of such power that no one had seen before. Luke converting to the Dark Side was usefull but not a war winning weapon, what could he do that the Emperor and Vader had not done already? further thin out the high command of the navy perhaps? It was the DS's etc that would force the submission of the galaxy, not another nasty force user. Remember it was the use of the power of the state theat made the empire not the mere presance of Sith.

[Master of Ossus]

Luke was more important than Death Squadron by a bunch. Luke was the threat to the Emperor. Luke is the one who had a chance to kill Vader and the Emperor. While they were not completely invincible to anyone else, he was the only one with a considerable chance of killing them. He was the threat to them. I really don't see why you don't understand this.

[omegaLancer]

With Luke in the Possession of the Emperor, the whole Battle of Endor would not have been even fought or it would have been a total defeat

... With Luke as the replacement of Vader ( Yes I believed it was an important part of the process of turning luke to the Dark side, that he to slay his father to ascend to his position). The Emperor would have not have his entire attention turn to either the battle or the destruction of the landing force ( or Vader junior would have been dispatch to capture his friends or destroy them ) Or decide to wait to the DS2 was fully functional ( never mind what was said in the movie, big holes in the main structure that could allow Fighter to get to the reactor core is not complete or fully operational and se it to destroy the home worlds of the Rebels..

Hoth was important case it set Luke up to be capture, it was Vader's failure at cloud city that was important, cause that is what lead to the failure of the empire at endor

[Stuart Mackey]

Luke was more important than Death Squadron by a bunch. Luke was the threat to the Emperor. Luke is the one who had a chance to kill Vader and the Emperor. While they were not completely invincible to anyone else, he was the only one with a considerable chance of killing them. He was the threat to them. I really don't see why you don't understand this.

Lukes abilities as a Jedi are certainly a threat to the Emperor, this is a given, and canon fact, there is no denying it. But converted or not, Jedi abilitis or not, he is still _one_ man, and not the one for the job according to TPM and AotC. Had he not converted to the Dark Side, what could he seriously accomplish against the entirity of the empire that better trained and equipped Jedi could not do befor him? And he would be worse than useless against a empire that could pop planets like zits at the mere whiff of rebellion.
Without the DS the empire may well have tighntened its grip to the point where large sections of the galaxy rebelled ala the Clone Wars and a person like Luke would be a vital compontet of this given his abilities, important, but still a component of what would one day be a democratic government, if it succeded. This is, I beleive, why luke was important, not because he was the be all and end all of the rebellion.
Given the Death Star there would be no galaxy wide rebellion, as no planet would dare suport it, or its operatives, for fear of the conciquences. The empire would be altered or destroyed by other means, probably Vader who is, after all, the one to restore balance to the force, not Luke.