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I see this a lot: the Jedi were stupid/myopic/bad for imposing their oppressive rules on Anakin and bringing about their own destruction. But...were they?

Despite flirting with other views the universe seems to have settled on the idea that the Jedi are at least right about the dark side. Is it not extremely important for any group like them to maintain as much objectivity as possible? I mean, a celibate diplomat-warrior race that rejects things we consider basic parts of humanity is shitty, but what about an entangled race that is enmeshed with the galaxy and it's various problems? How much would this suck? What happens when all these other conflicting loyalties start intruding on the actual business of protecting the Republic?

I mean, it's not like the New Jedi Order did that great a job with the whole attachment thing. They always pulled themselves back from the brink but people died as they prevaricated, people who could have lived. The entire Legacy of the Force series essentially runs on this. The Sith would have had a much worse time of it if the Jedi hadn't been so blinded by their attachments. Spoiler It even pops up in the NJO. Mara Jade-a trained Master- essentially abandons the war with the existential threat to her Republic because she wants to protect her son...by hiding with him while everyone else dies. How many OR Jedi would have had this problem?

People keep saying that the Jedi were stupid for their actions with Anakin, and I agree to some degree: They should never have trained him.At all. Once they broke that one rule they were sucked down a path where they could only tear someone who was not suited to their rules apart or weaken themselves. But even then, they had little choice. It was probably better- or more in keeping with their ideology- than killing him, which was the safest path with the Sith still alive.

Consider if the Jedi allowed attachments, Anakin would have likely married Padme in the open, told Obi Wan about his dreams, and also would have had a more loving relationship with his master, and wouldn't have needed a father figure like Palpatine constantly poisoning his ear and telling him that killing prisoners is a-okay.

I'm definitely more in the Jolee Bindo camp here.

[i]Knights of the Old Republic[/i] wrote:Love doesn't lead to the dark side. Passion can lead to rage and fear, and can be controlled... but passion is not the same thing as love. Controlling your passions while being in love... that's what they should teach you to beware. But love itself will save you... not condemn you.

FaxModem1 wrote:Consider if the Jedi allowed attachments, Anakin would have likely married Padme in the open, told Obi Wan about his dreams, and also would have had a more loving relationship with his master, and wouldn't have needed a father figure like Palpatine constantly poisoning his ear and telling him that killing prisoners is a-okay.

This is why they should never have trained him though. People focus too much on Anakin.Why does he get to overturn a millennia-long practice? He isn't a good example because we always knew that he was unsuitable, from the beginning. And he proved it by betraying and murdering his entire Order to help a man that had killed billions.

And there is the matter of this possibly being futile. If Anakin had been allowed to have attachments he may have jumped after Padme and left Obi Wan to fall to Dooku and probably done a hundred other reckless things. And what if the Jedi couldn't save Padme? Wouldn't he be right back where he started? At Palpatine's feet?

And why would Palpatine be stopped by anything so trivial as what Anakin needed? He would find some other path

Love doesn't lead to the dark side. Passion can lead to rage and fear, and can be controlled... but passion is not the same thing as love. Controlling your passions while being in love... that's what they should teach you to beware. But love itself will save you... not condemn you.

Or you could cut the whole thing out and save yourself from not only the semantic battles but the shenanigans that follow.

You have to remember that training a Jedi from birth was a relatively newer practice, compared to the dozens of millenia before that since the beginning of the Orders days on Typhon. It was a change of policy based on the idea that if a baby could be raised to deny attachment (themselves) from the beginning, then it would be easier to control their passions later in life and therefore not fall to the Sith.

You also have to realize that Qui-Gon Jinn was never going to not train Anakin. He believed that Anakin was the Chosen One. He had already been made a social pariah among the Jedi higher ups and had no problem defying their orders if he personally felt that he was in the right. So even if the Council had not agreed to train Anakin, Qui-Gon would have gone ahead and trained him himself. However, the Council did what they did out of a desire for control. Even if Anakin was a bit older than the then common practice of babies inducted into the Order, they could still have a hand in shaping him into a Jedi.

Ultimately, there is no way that Anakin was ever going to escape being trained to use the Force and become what he became. Fate or destiny or Sith-machinations would have seen to that.

Abacus wrote:You have to remember that training a Jedi from birth was a relatively newer practice, compared to the dozens of millenia before that since the beginning of the Orders days on Typhon. It was a change of policy based on the idea that if a baby could be raised to deny attachment (themselves) from the beginning, then it would be easier to control their passions later in life and therefore not fall to the Sith.

You also have to realize that Qui-Gon Jinn was never going to not train Anakin. He believed that Anakin was the Chosen One. He had already been made a social pariah among the Jedi higher ups and had no problem defying their orders if he personally felt that he was in the right. So even if the Council had not agreed to train Anakin, Qui-Gon would have gone ahead and trained him himself. However, the Council did what they did out of a desire for control. Even if Anakin was a bit older than the then common practice of babies inducted into the Order, they could still have a hand in shaping him into a Jedi.

Ultimately, there is no way that Anakin was ever going to escape being trained to use the Force and become what he became. Fate or destiny or Sith-machinations would have seen to that.

Doesn't much change my point does it? You're asking people to reconsider a useful system because one Master insists on training one Padawan who should not be trained according to the Council. Again, this is some Anakin-centric thinking. Oh,because Anakin fucked up the Jedi clearly fucked up for not accommodating his wishes, for not breaking their code for this one dude. This is then extended and treated as a failure of the entire idea of non-attachment. Even though both Jedi and Sith after it have fucked up spectacularly because of their attachments.

I don't think we should let empathy for Anakin overwhelm the issue here.

The Jedi code is all about balance. The whole attachment taboo is about restriction. If they recognized it, allowed it (even if frowned upon) and did not let it control them, then it would never be a problem. Like everything else it would be up to the individual.

Zwinmar wrote:The Jedi code is all about balance. The whole attachment taboo is about restriction. If they recognized it, allowed it (even if frowned upon) and did not let it control them, then it would never be a problem. Like everything else it would be up to the individual.

The problem is that one strategy guarantees that more individuals will not let it control them than the other. You cannot avoid the problems, like I said, people like Luke fucking Skywalker and Mara Jade have lost this battle, why not just ban it outright, forcing the majority of these cases into non-existence? It may fuck some, but they were probably fucked anyway.

Counting on individuals to resist their natural impulses shouldn't be your main strategy.

And in the case of Bastila, it saved her from the dark side with her love for Revan. total non-attachment means not caring if anyone gets hurt and makes you a bit of a sociopath. Some restrained attachments means that you have empathy and care about the fate of others, enough to try and do right by the galaxy.

indeed we shouldn't look this as a black and white situation (meaning all attachments are bad or all attachments are good), yes attachments can cause issues but so can denying them, this is in fact at the heart of Jolee Bindo's philosophy when it comes to attachments and he was one of the few people who are for certain light side in KOTOR.

I think they were wrong, in that they were too strict. To paraphrase Leia, "The more you tighten your grip, the more will slip through your fingers."

If the Jedi were allowed some leeway in feelings, emotions, and attachments (which are all perfectly normal and healthy to express), then I don't think the Jedi would have such a problem with being tempted with the Dark Side. Looking at normal humans, we are all tempted by the dark side of life on a daily basis but we don't beat it by turning off the rest of our emotions. We beat the dark side by sometimes indulging in it somewhat, or just accepting it and ignoring it.

Tightly controlling your emotions beyond what is healthy can lead you to snap...which is what happened to Anakin and who knows how many other Jedi.

I wonder if that is why the Dark Side is so powerful to some. If it tempts you with, say, passion, or rage, or love, and those are emotions you've never been allowed to express before, that's going to be a much more powerful lure than the Dark Side calling to, well, one of us lot.

And in the case of Bastila, it saved her from the dark side with her love for Revan. total non-attachment means not caring if anyone gets hurt and makes you a bit of a sociopath. Some restrained attachments means that you have empathy and care about the fate of others, enough to try and do right by the galaxy.

If the Jedi were allowed some leeway in feelings, emotions, and attachments (which are all perfectly normal and healthy to express), then I don't think the Jedi would have such a problem with being tempted with the Dark Side.

This is not far from the Jedi position in the PT:they have no problem with acquaintances and friendships like those between Obi-Wan and the Council and Padme (Yoda has no problem expressing happiness at her survival) -and Obi Wan and that fat guy who told him where Kamino was in AoTC and Commander Cody-it just isn't allowed to go further. They like her, they can joke and act as they like, doesn't mean there isn't some distance and that they won't put the mission before her

Looking at normal humans, we are all tempted by the dark side of life on a daily basis but we don't beat it by turning off the rest of our emotions. We beat the dark side by sometimes indulging in it somewhat, or just accepting it and ignoring it.

Ordinary people are a horrible example. They already suck and they aren't part of a religious sect that is in charge of being both the policemen and diplomats of the galaxy and who have to use powers that range from telekinesis to mind control. I wouldn't want such people thinking it was fine to "indulge" themselves to help their girlfriend or impress their mother. I don't want anyone slipping down that slippery slope. In fact, iirc the whole Jedi philosophy is that it is a slippery slope. You are not smarter, you are not going to have a single bite of chocolate and be satisfied, you will keep going until you just jump off the cliff. This is not an issue for normal people because, well; they have no real power right? And it's not like they have an entire universal force field with it's own ideas tempting them now is it?

This is not far from the Jedi position in the PT:they have no problem with acquaintances and friendships like those between Obi-Wan and the Council and Padme (Yoda has no problem expressing happiness at her survival) -and Obi Wan and that fat guy who told him where Kamino was in AoTC and Commander Cody-it just isn't allowed to go further. They like her, they can joke and act as they like, doesn't mean there isn't some distance and that they won't put the mission before her

Being allowed to express joy or friendship is not what I was talking about. The Jedi are forbidden to have any kind of meaningful personal attachment, forbidden to love, forbidden to have families, etc... All the things that many people consider to be the best in life are not permitted. While it's quite ok to say, "Ok ground rules, Jedi cannot use the Force for personal greed, or for revenge, or to inflict pain.", it is very different to tell people to turn off a piece of what makes them human in the first place and punish them for something as benevolent as love.

Ordinary people are a horrible example.

Jedi ARE ordinary people. Just ordinary people with telekinetic powers and such. Just because they are in touch with the Force doesn't mean their brains are wired differently. They still love, hate, like, dislike, etc... They still have favorite foods, hobbies, and individual political beliefs. Telling them to beware of hate and anger is fine...that's good advice for everybody. But telling them to avoid loving someone? Telling them to avoid the good as well as the bad? Telling them to turn off all but the most simple emotions? That's not natural. It's no surprise that the more you try to control human nature, the more likely that someone will rebel against it.

Bastila was romantically involved with Revan, that's a bit beyond polite friendship.

From what I have read from the EU, some Jedi are given exemptions in order to have a family. I think one member of the Jedi Council itself have a family because his species have a declining population.

If so, clearly the Jedi order is flexible enough to allow their members to form intimate bonds with people outside of Order, as long as they do not compromise their devotion to the order itself. Furthermore, it is not as if members who were expelled from the order is committing any sort of crime. Former members of the order are able to live pretty decent life as a free citizen in the Galactic Republic. Essentially, you can chose between living a nice family life as an ordinary citizen or as a devoted member of the Jedi order, but not both at the same time.

I think we have to understand that much of the "debate" over whether the Jedi Council is doing the right thing in imposing a rigid set of rules is down to us viewing things from the perspective of Anakin. To him, he seems to view the threat of being expelled from the Jedi Order as some sort of criminal offence when it really isn't. I will argue that it was Anakin's inability to let go of his attachment to the Jedi Order that resulted in his fall to the Dark Side.

He could easily have settled for a more humbly married life with Padme ( who is unlikely to be impoverished due to her career as a Senator/former queen) once he left the order.

Frankly, the whole "Anakin's mother" thing always annoyed me - ok, he wouldn't be able to do much while he was still 10 or so, but once he was in his teens and had ready access to a ship...

If it were me, once I gained access to a ship that had hyperdrive and could hold 2 people - I'd sneak off to Tatooine, find her, make her owner deactivate the bomb, (by persuasion or force if needed), then get the heck out. If I couldn't return her to the temple with me, then I'd at least drop her off somewhere safer than a planet with slaves.

They were religious fanatics and raised child soldiers. Of course they were horrible people.

On the one hand, it was Anakin's attachment to Padme (and to a lesser extent, his mother) that led to his downfall. On the other, Luke's love for his father saved the galaxy. So the movies kind of tell us two different things.

I suppose you could analyze the differences between the two to see how it goes, but I'm not up to that sort of thing right now so I though I'd leave it here for other people to ponder. There is one thing I'd like to address, though:

ray245 wrote:[Anakin] seems to view the threat of being expelled from the Jedi Order as some sort of criminal offence when it really isn't. I will argue that it was Anakin's inability to let go of his attachment to the Jedi Order that resulted in his fall to the Dark Side.

In Episode II he was absolutely willing to leave the Jedi Order and marry Padme. It was Padme who nixed that idea and seemed horrified by it, not Anakin. IIRC Anakin even said at one point in Episode III that he was tired of the lie and wanted to just live openly (I think it was when Padme said she was pregnant?) but again, Padme nixed the idea. Why she felt like that, I don't really know; we all know Anakin is rather impulsive so him saying "Fuck the Jedi Order, I'd rather be with you" doesn't necessarily make it a good idea or an easy proposition by default. Perhaps there are some repercussions, Padme is aware of those, and that's why she was against the idea? Hard to say.

There are the Lost Twenty, though. And they get statues and are apparently honored. So there's that.

Scrib wrote:

Abacus wrote:You have to remember that training a Jedi from birth was a relatively newer practice, compared to the dozens of millenia before that since the beginning of the Orders days on Typhon. It was a change of policy based on the idea that if a baby could be raised to deny attachment (themselves) from the beginning, then it would be easier to control their passions later in life and therefore not fall to the Sith.

You also have to realize that Qui-Gon Jinn was never going to not train Anakin. He believed that Anakin was the Chosen One. He had already been made a social pariah among the Jedi higher ups and had no problem defying their orders if he personally felt that he was in the right. So even if the Council had not agreed to train Anakin, Qui-Gon would have gone ahead and trained him himself. However, the Council did what they did out of a desire for control. Even if Anakin was a bit older than the then common practice of babies inducted into the Order, they could still have a hand in shaping him into a Jedi.

Ultimately, there is no way that Anakin was ever going to escape being trained to use the Force and become what he became. Fate or destiny or Sith-machinations would have seen to that.

Doesn't much change my point does it? You're asking people to reconsider a useful system because one Master insists on training one Padawan who should not be trained according to the Council. Again, this is some Anakin-centric thinking. Oh,because Anakin fucked up the Jedi clearly fucked up for not accommodating his wishes, for not breaking their code for this one dude. This is then extended and treated as a failure of the entire idea of non-attachment. Even though both Jedi and Sith after it have fucked up spectacularly because of their attachments.

I don't think we should let empathy for Anakin overwhelm the issue here.

Except that it's not Anakin-centric and it does challenge your point -- that if the Council had refused Anakin training that nothing would have happened. My argument is that there is no scenario where Anakin would not have received some form of training.

biostem wrote:Frankly, the whole "Anakin's mother" thing always annoyed me - ok, he wouldn't be able to do much while he was still 10 or so, but once he was in his teens and had ready access to a ship...

If it were me, once I gained access to a ship that had hyperdrive and could hold 2 people - I'd sneak off to Tatooine, find her, make her owner deactivate the bomb, (by persuasion or force if needed), then get the heck out. If I couldn't return her to the temple with me, then I'd at least drop her off somewhere safer than a planet with slaves.

So you'd break the rules of your Order for personal gain and force someone to give up his or her legal property (Tatooine was not part of the Republic during Anakin's time, remember?). There is no way your mother could return to the Temple with you and you'd likely be expelled for it. Do you realize why it's a bad idea for a Force-user to go around throwing his weight around and use his power to intimidate people?

The Order SHOULD have done something about Anakin's mother, yes. But then again the Order had a whole galaxy going mad in their hands and someone who had a relatively easy life (Watto didn't seem like an abusive master) probably didn't figure in the Order's plans that much, especially when they already had troubles with Anakin forming strong attachements. Encouraging it wouldn't fit their own philosophy and outlook.

JLTucker wrote:They were religious fanatics and raised child soldiers. Of course they were horrible people.

Religious fanatics how? Usually when people say someone is a religious fanatic they imply that the person is beyond reasoning and logic. Unfortunately for that claim to apply to the Jedi, they have pretty good reasons to have their dogma as it is. The dark side fucks up a person so quickly that they will murder little children in no time flat and even their physical characteristics change. Even one small cult of dark-siders was enough to throw the galaxy into turmoil from which it did not recover, according to the EU.

Child soldiers? Are you talking about the time before the Ruusan Reformations in the EU?

Tiriol wrote:

JLTucker wrote:They were religious fanatics and raised child soldiers. Of course they were horrible people.

Religious fanatics how? Usually when people say someone is a religious fanatic they imply that the person is beyond reasoning and logic. Unfortunately for that claim to apply to the Jedi, they have pretty good reasons to have their dogma as it is. The dark side fucks up a person so quickly that they will murder little children in no time flat and even their physical characteristics change. Even one small cult of dark-siders was enough to throw the galaxy into turmoil from which it did not recover, according to the EU.

Child soldiers? Are you talking about the time before the Ruusan Reformations in the EU?

Their love of the force is indicative of religious fanaticism. And there's no proof the force even exists. All you see is the Jedi and Sith doing extraordinary things and aying it's because of the force. Perhaps they just happen to be able to do those things?

I don't care about the EU. I've never read a single thing from the EU and only focus on the movies. In RotS, child soldiers were being trained by the Jedi. The Jedi, sans the kids, deserved the be wiped out. Unfortunately, the Sith weren't any better. They are horrible too.

Their love of the force is indicative of religious fanaticism. And there's no proof the force even exists. All you see is the Jedi and Sith doing extraordinary things and aying it's because of the force. Perhaps they just happen to be able to do those things?

Have you ever even watched any of the movies?

Borgholio wrote:

Their love of the force is indicative of religious fanaticism. And there's no proof the force even exists. All you see is the Jedi and Sith doing extraordinary things and aying it's because of the force. Perhaps they just happen to be able to do those things?

Have you ever even watched any of the movies?

I have. Point to a scene proving the existence of the force other than through actions allegedly caused by the it and through dialogue. Through the grace of God, I managed to drive home safely in winter weather. God caused me to have keen skills behind the wheel. He acted through me, much like the force acted through Anakin to destroy the Death Star in ANH. But who cares if it exists or not? They worship that shit like crazy and the result is the indoctrination and arms training of children. That is indicative of religious fanaticism that is comparable to radical Muslims and Christians. That kind of behavior is inexcusable.

You really want me to point out every scene where someone levitated an object, crushed a trachea, cast lightning from their fingertips, fell down several stories without injury, JUMPED UP those same several stories, communicated telepathically, and came back from the fucking dead? Really?