Palpatine vs. racism (er, speciesism?)

[Sriad]

Soooo... the point is made in the Heir to the Empire that Palpatine was a racist (in a setting where that actually MEANS something, granted), and that's why Thrawn was "only" a Grand Admiral.

In Episode 1, however, Darth Maul is obviously alien. So is the Trade Federation, for that matter. What's the real deal? In my eyes the Heir books are about as cannon as the EU gets, but is what sort of evidence in the cannon 'verse is there for each side? Did Palpatine employ Maul and the Feddies because he knew they would die horribly? Or was Timmothy Zahn just making stuff up? I know there are other examples of the Empire as a unit being racist (Ewoks, Wookies, etc) but Palpatine himself?

[Lord Pounder]

Obi Wan mentions in AotC that Palpy is an opertunist politician who is "very good at playing to the prejudices of the people". Thats more than enough explanation.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Dark Empire's notes reveals that Palpatine has only one true descriminatory bias: he believed Force sensitives were inherently superior to non-Force sensitives.

The anti-alien and anti-female bias was just a tool for his manipulation.

[Soontir C'boath]

Soooo... the point is made in the Heir to the Empire that Palpatine was a racist (in a setting where that actually MEANS something, granted), and that's why Thrawn was "only" a Grand Admiral.

ONLY A GRAND ADMIRAL?!!!
Do you realize that's the highest rank in the navy???!!!!!!

Cyaround,
Jason

[Mark S]

Given enought time on their hands, Lucas and Co. will undoubtedly insert CG aliens into the Imperial scenes and re-release the movies. Again.

[Captain tycho]

Given enought time on their hands, Lucas and Co. will undoubtedly insert CG aliens into the Imperial scenes and re-release the movies. Again.

I highly, highly doubt that.

[Stormbringer]

Did Palpatine employ Maul and the Feddies because he knew they would die horribly? Or was Timmothy Zahn just making stuff up? I know there are other examples of the Empire as a unit being racist (Ewoks, Wookies, etc) but Palpatine himself?

He knew they'd get played, burned and ultimately cast aside. Even Maul wasn't really trained to eventually step into the title of Sith Lord.


As to the racist that's difficult. The undoubtable truth is the Empire is invariably represented by (white) human males. That alone would suggest that there is a bias of some kind. Whether it's Palpatine's or he's just playing to public (or governmental) sentiment is unknown.

Given the fact that the alien seccessionists would be popularly blamed for the Clone Wars it's more likely Palpatine was playing to public sympathy. The anti-femal bias is harder to explain so easily. I have no idea. Maybe his mother was mean to him or something.

Either way Palpatine doesn't seem to let whatever bias there might be from making use of female or alien talent. Thrawn was a Warlord of the Empire. A step down from his Executors (such as Sedriss and Vader) who were in turn one step down from the Emperor him self.

[Joe]

Soooo... the point is made in the Heir to the Empire that Palpatine was a racist (in a setting where that actually MEANS something, granted), and that's why Thrawn was "only" a Grand Admiral.

Thrawn is hardly a typical case. He had to prove himself a thousand times over in order to become a Grand Admiral.

Personally, I would think that Palpatine was too much of an evil genius to give thoughts to such things. He probably didn't give two shits.

[His Divine Shadow]

As to the racist that's difficult. The undoubtable truth is the Empire is invariably represented by (white) human males. That alone would suggest that there is a bias of some kind

Or it's mere practicality, While some ultra PC millitary where all the aliens of the galaxy mix might seem entertaining at first, thats not practical, what is practical is to use only one species and/or other humanoid species that are similar enough to humans to allow standardization.
And humans are the most wide-spread of all species and are very able in a wide variety of situations.

Examples of problems with multi-species ships, the Mon-Cal M80's, hard for humanoid species to use.

[Lord of the Farce]

Or it's mere practicality, While some ultra PC millitary where all the aliens of the galaxy mix might seem entertaining at first, thats not practical, what is practical is to use only one species and/or other humanoid species that are similar enough to humans to allow standardization.
And humans are the most wide-spread of all species and are very able in a wide variety of situations.

Examples of problems with multi-species ships, the Mon-Cal M80's, hard for humanoid species to use.

And you could add that the Rebellion could be considered to have some similar issues as well. I mean, it seems that until the ROTJ era (referring primarily to the movies), the Alliance was pretty sparce too when it came to non-human membership. And when they did get a lot of non-human crewing the Alliance ships, it seems a good deal of it was because of the same reason that the Empire's ships are crewed by humans.

[Peregrin Toker]

Examples of problems with multi-species ships, the Mon-Cal M80's, hard for humanoid species to use.

Aren't the Mon Calamari humanoid themselves? (Well, they have a human-like gait, two arms and two legs, and one head)

In Episode 1, however, Darth Maul is obviously alien. So is the Trade Federation, for that matter.

Actually, Darth Maul is not an alien technically, he's a member of a quasihuman race called the Zabraks. However, there is one strong evidence that Palpatine isn't that anti-alien:

When he got himself a clone army, he didn't give the job to human cloners, no - he gave them to the Kaminoans, some of the most bizarre-looking of all humanoid aliens in SW.

[His Divine Shadow]

Aren't the Mon Calamari humanoid themselves? (Well, they have a human-like gait, two arms and two legs, and one head)

Their hands are dissimilar enough to cause problems for humans on moncal controlls, the layout of their eyes make it hard for humans to watch mon cal screens, not only that, humans recieve very little intelligble information from the screens since Mon Cals eyes share only a small portion of the same spectrum range and they see in other spectrums, which means they combine screens, buttons, text and such in a way that it's hard/impossible for humans to read.

A mon cal suit might just look bland white to you, but to a Mon Cal it's not.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

I never understand why the lack of non-humans in the Imperial military became the racist-brainbug among the EU writers. If we never saw ROTJ, then we can assume that the Rebels are racist too due to lack of non-humans (and no, Chewie doesn't count. He is, after all, Han Solo's first mate).

[Stormbringer]

Or it's mere practicality, While some ultra PC millitary where all the aliens of the galaxy mix might seem entertaining at first, thats not practical, what is practical is to use only one species and/or other humanoid species that are similar enough to humans to allow standardization.

Yet they only have human males serving. Wheres in the Republic had woman in the one scene we see of them. Given the fact the entire Imperial Military in the trilogy appears to consist of human males without exception it does make one wonder.

There are species, such as the Chiss, which vary only slightly and are fully capable of using human standard eqipment so the distinctly human, male composition of the Navy is something to be remarked on.

When he got himself a clone army, he didn't give the job to human cloners, no - he gave them to the Kaminoans, some of the most bizarre-looking of all humanoid aliens in SW.

That proves nothing but that they were the best people for the job. If Palpatine is a chauvanist and a racist, he's still willing to set it aside for those that he can profit from.

[Darktrayn]

Female Imperial officers are extremely few and far between. I think the only high ranking female officer we hear about is Admiral Daala, who would have never had been an Admiral if it wasn't for Tarkin. Her Admiral status was pretty much kept secret and she was given the duty of spending most of her days guarding Tarkin's think tank. Oh, she also had to give Tarkin some luvin' too.

Most women Imperials you hear about seem to be mostly assassins or intellegence operatives. Mara Jade, Ysanne Isard, ect. To be an officer, I would suppose you'd have to display extremely exceptional skills, and probebly have some high ranking officer in your family.

I don't think Palpatine was prejudice towards women, he just most likely reasoned that they cause too much distraction in the majority of men.

[Peregrin Toker]

Aren't the Mon Calamari humanoid themselves? (Well, they have a human-like gait, two arms and two legs, and one head)

Their hands are dissimilar enough to cause problems for humans on moncal controlls, the layout of their eyes make it hard for humans to watch mon cal screens, not only that, humans recieve very little intelligble information from the screens since Mon Cals eyes share only a small portion of the same spectrum range and they see in other spectrums, which means they combine screens, buttons, text and such in a way that it's hard/impossible for humans to read.
.

The Mon Calamari might have hands which vary greatly from human hands, they might see differently but they have two legs, two arms, one head on a neck, a torso and they are
more or less humanoid. Well, according to my definition of "humanoid." What's your definition of "humanoid"???

[Peregrin Toker]

I don't think Palpatine was prejudice towards women, he just most likely reasoned that they cause too much distraction in the majority of men.

That assumption would only be true if the majority of potential female Imperial officers are as attractive as Daala and Isard.

[Sriad]

The theory that using a standard race to economize the millitary hardware's a good one, thanks.
Though it does leave questions like "why only white men" and "what about sufficiently humanish aliens that they'd be able to use all the hardware just fine?"
I guess there are excuses for these, but the evidence that there's discrimination going on seems pretty significant.

[Darth Fanboy]

Actually, Darth Maul is not an alien technically, he's a member of a quasihuman race called the Zabraks. However, there is one strong evidence that Palpatine isn't that anti-alien:

Quasi Human? I thought Zabraks were from Iridonia and their own species to boot. Eeth oth of the Jedi COuncil was also a Zabrak and if you look at him I think you can tell that Zabraks aren't even "Quasi Human"

[neoolong]

Actually, Darth Maul is not an alien technically, he's a member of a quasihuman race called the Zabraks. However, there is one strong evidence that Palpatine isn't that anti-alien:

Quasi Human? I thought Zabraks were from Iridonia and their own species to boot. Eeth oth of the Jedi COuncil was also a Zabrak and if you look at him I think you can tell that Zabraks aren't even "Quasi Human"

Closest would be humanoid.

[Boba Fett]

Actually, Darth Maul is not an alien technically, he's a member of a quasihuman race called the Zabraks. However, there is one strong evidence that Palpatine isn't that anti-alien:

Quasi Human? I thought Zabraks were from Iridonia and their own species to boot. Eeth oth of the Jedi COuncil was also a Zabrak and if you look at him I think you can tell that Zabraks aren't even "Quasi Human"

Closest would be humanoid.

...and from their POV we're zabrakoid...

[Peregrin Toker]

Actually, Darth Maul is not an alien technically, he's a member of a quasihuman race called the Zabraks. However, there is one strong evidence that Palpatine isn't that anti-alien:

Quasi Human? I thought Zabraks were from Iridonia and their own species to boot.

The Zabraks might not be the same species as human, but they are probably the same genus and evolved from humans. Or genetically engineered to look as human as possible. (like the Zelosians)

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Or it's mere practicality, While some ultra PC millitary where all the aliens of the galaxy mix might seem entertaining at first, thats not practical, what is practical is to use only one species and/or other humanoid species that are similar enough to humans to allow standardization.

Yet they only have human males serving. Wheres in the Republic had woman in the one scene we see of them. Given the fact the entire Imperial Military in the trilogy appears to consist of human males without exception it does make one wonder.

Were there any other women in the trilogy aside of Leia and Mothma? Also, those two ain't even military people.

Also, scarcity of women in the battlefield is quite a common thing in most today's countries. Maybe in the Empire, military is simply not a popular career choice among women (compared to men), like in real world, where military personnel are still dominated by men.

[Darth Fanboy]

There were a few women (at least 1 oer 2) at hoth weren't there? The slave dancers at Jabba's palace too.

[Peregrin Toker]

Were there any other women in the trilogy aside of Leia and Mothma? Also, those two ain't even military people.

I thought that Mothma was "Supreme Commander" of the Rebel Alliance, although I have a strong suspicion that it is just a military-sounding title, not an actual military rank.