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This article shall be based upon the work done here: http://www.daltonator.net/fanfics/essays/impfleet.txt by Commander Thelea.

First of all, let me just say that I admire the work that Commander Thelea did on his/her essay-article thing on the Imperial Fleet size. Now, before I even get started, I'm going to outright ignore anyone who starts pipping up about “b-b-b-but it's not canon” or some other BS. It was canon back then and so long as it takes place between ANH and ROTJ, then I consider it to remain cannon. I am not including any computer games into this. Only written books (largely from the WEG material and the new Essential books). That said, this is not a rebuttal to Commander Thelea's work, but rather a correction and compliment to it. I believe that Thelea was right, to an extent, that most people are sadly underestimating just how large the Galactic Empire was and how mighty it's military equally was. Let's lay a little groundwork now...

Now just how big is the Galactic Empire? The Essential Atlas (2009) says that, “at its peak” (probably just before and just after the Battle of Yavin) the Galactic Empire “consisted of 1.5 million member worlds and sixty-nine million colonies, protectorates, and puppet states.” The newer (2013) Fantasy Flight Games “Edge of the Empire” RPG core rulebook says “...galactic cartographers and astronomers place the number of habitable systems at 3.2 billion. Of those, only 69 million or so have sufficient population for Imperial membership, and, finally, only about 1.75 million planets are fully represented and integrated into the Galactic Empire.” The West End Games Star Wars RPG game states that the Old Republic “eventually embraced over a million member worlds, and countless more colonies, protectorates and governorship. Nearly 100 quadrillion beings pledged allegiance to the Republic in nearly fifty million systems.” Now there is no suggestion in the WEG book that says when the switch from Republic to Empire was made that worlds were lost – if anything, they gained even more through outright expansionist conquest. The FFG book mentions only member worlds but hints at a larger amount of what could be 'colonies, protectorates, and governorships.' The Essential Atlas (which most might be more willing to trust) gives us that the GE “consisted of 1.5 million member worlds and sixty-nine million colonies, protectorates, and puppet states.” For all intents and purposes, I plan to follow mostly with the Essential Atlas.

Now here is where I mention the importance of recognizing the Ruusan Reformations, as described in the Essential Guide to Warfare (2012). “To make the Senate more governable, Valorum consolidated its millions of sectors into 1,024 regional sectors, each with its own Senator, though political necessity forced him to carve out exemptions for powerful worlds in the Core and Colonies...” It is important to note this, since it is the basic building block for the military organization of both the Republic and the Galactic Empire. So we have 1,024 regional sectors, each of which has its own Sector Fleet and Systems Forces (the distinction of which I will explain later).

According to the novel duology by Timothy Zahn, the most important of which is “Visions of the Future,” the Empire of the Hand is a section of the Unknown Regions that consists of an estimated 250 sectors. While many Imperial fluff supporters will be willing to include these 250 sectors into the accounts of the Galactic Empire’s power and resources, I believe it would be fallacious to do so. We know that the EotH only came to the extent of 250 sectors at the point of the novel, which takes place 19 years ABY (after the battle of Yavin). As such it’s resources and material cannot be included into any account of the Galactic Empire – which I will henceforth see as a separate entity. There is also no reason to believe, considering the EotH’s architect (ie Grand Admiral Thrawn), that its defenses would be organized on the same lines as the Galactic Empire’s own sector group fleet order of battle, this due to the fact that it is well recorded that Thrawn was continually given sub-par reinforcements and support from Palpatine – starting his venture with a single Imperial Star Destroyer! There is also the major influence of the Chiss upon the EotH, who accounted for a great percentage of manpower and resources to the creation and continued defense of the EotH. As such, the 250 sectors and their supposed defenses forces will not be taken into the calculations herein. Nor will I include any of the supposed “Deep Core conquests” that Thelea makes allusions to but makes no serious mention of in terms of sources.

There seems to be a distinction between sector groups and fleet assets, perhaps lending some credit to Thelea’s assertion that the Imperial Starfleet and the Imperial Navy are two separate entities. However the size of said assets may vary, as I will try to ascertain below.

According to the WEG “Imperial Sourcebook Second Edition” a system force “is commanded by a systems admiral, also known as a commodore. A system force is responsible for several systems, the admiral being in charge of organizing and coordinating all of his ships throughout a sphere of command spanning hundreds of light years and dozens of worlds, the normal method of communication being no faster than the ships themselves.”

Further, there is the distinction within the WEG material between a Fleet and a System Force. It says clearly that a Fleet is “designated as a ‘sector resource,’ which means it should be available for action anywhere within the sector. A fleet is the smallest unit transferred between sectors. All fleets have a force technical service and force support under their command.” Not only does a Fleet have a different deployment mission but it also has a separate supply and support chain. That is a very clear and indisputable indication of the Imperial Starfleet and Imperial Navy being separate entities – to which System Forces are the building blocks of Starfleet and Fleets are the building blocks of the Imperial Navy. Because the regional forces that would be collected to create the Grand Army of the Republic and from that into the Imperial Military, it is only natural that the organizational structure would remain similar, and as such Imperial Fleets are organized based on a similar structure to system forces, but are not of them. There is also the addendum that certain moffs and grand moffs (such as Tarkin and Carlinson) “could easily have 15 additional squadrons attached to their sector group HQ.” Then there is the last sentence of the Sector Group Organization: “Thousands of Sector Groups are at the Emperor’s command as he seeks to bring the galaxy firmly under his control.”

The differentiation between System Force and Fleet, the fact that moffs could gain “easily” an additional 15 squadrons to their Sector Group HQs (if that’s easy, I wonder how many they could gain through ‘tough’ negotiation), and that it mentions “thousands” of Sector Groups (when there are barely 24 more than a thousand sectors in the known galaxy) it is clear that Thelea was right. But that is not to say that all sector groups were equal (more on that below).

The reason I point out the specification for defining what a system force is, is because of the next sentence: a system force is organized along force pools, available resources categorized by general mission type. While they have a set organization on the OB, a commodore is expected to reform the constituent elements of a pool to tailor the detail to the mission.” Clearly this means that a systems admiral does not have the resources at all times to form every type of System Force (as will be detailed below) but rather he has the constituent parts to make up one or another such system force as the needs of his particular defense and patrol requirements are. His/Her total amount of ships should therefore be calculated as being thus: 3 Imperial Star Destroyers, 6 to 12 torpedo spheres, 30 to 48 cruisers or frigates, 60 to 80 corvettes, 35 to 50 light cruisers, 8 to 16 specially modified recon light cruisers, 4 Evakmark-KDY transport vessels, 4 strike cruisers, 8 FTS Evakmark-KDY transport vessels, 16 Escort Frigates, and 100+ support ships. A System force can therefore muster a (at best) maximum total of 217 warships, 12 torpedo spheres and 112 support ships.

Sector Groups, of which Systems Forces are a constituent part, make up (according to WEG) at least 2,400 ships, 24 of which are Star Destroyers. If we know that each System Force will always contain 3 ISDs, then that means there are roughly 8 System Forces within a single sector, to whit there are: 24 ISDs, 96 torpedo spheres, 1,712 other combat ships and 896 support ships in a single sector group; which means that of the 1,024 sectors in the Galactic Empire, there are an estimated 24,576 ISDs, 98,304 torpedo spheres and 1,753,088 other warships, and 917,594 support ships within the Imperial Starfleet.

In his/her calculations, Commander Thelea included Sector Fleets and System Forces together, which was I think his mistake. Instead of seeing the Sector Fleets and the System Forces as a separate entity, he saw them jointly as being the Imperial Starfleet (aka Coast Guard) and his own estimations of the “25,000 Star Destroyers” comment to be the Imperial Navy (aka the offensive line). He even includes oversectors in this calculations – that being a mistake since Oversectors were not “new” but were rather special political and military zones of authority. No new fleets magically appeared with the creation of the oversectors – it was purely an administrative adjustment to the regional governor decree and allow commanders to cut through red tape.

Now Thelea's argument for the size of the Imperial Fleet/Navy (offensive line) is based on his own observation of Darth Vader's “Death Squadron” (as seen in TESB) and a computer game that mentions a battlecruiser (larger than a standard ISD, but not an SSD) appearing in the aftermath to help chase the Falcon. He then postulates that three ISDs must therefore be an escort for the Executor and the other two must be an escort for the unnamed and only mentioned battlecruiser. However he completely discounts the fact that Death Squadron was a special task force formed by Darth Vader for the sole purpose of hunting down the Rebel Alliance and his son, Luke. In the same way that various Moffs and Grand Moffs had their own personal squadrons that existed outside the normal Order of Battle, Darth Vader as the Commander in Chief of the Imperial Military had his own elite squadron as well. To try and postulate the size of the Imperial Navy based on a misinterpreation of Death Squadron's reason for existence and a single mention in a computer game (of which all such sources are discounted) is reckless to say the least. There is also the dubious figure he states that the Imperial Navy had 25,000 ISDs...but ONLY six – SIX – torpedo spheres. That big of a distribution between capitol ships and siege platforms, especially after he showed how many a Sector's System Forces were suppose to (on paper) maintain is just...it just don't make any sense.

When Thelea talks about Imperial Member World Defense Fleets, he mentions the two Golan II platforms that were defending Coruscant and uses that as the measurement of the rest of the GE. That is a huge mistake in my opinion. It is part of several cannon sources that some systems were better guarded than others. Coruscant, Kuat, and Corellia were all far more heavily guarded that Alderaan, Sluis Van, or Valc III. He also doesn't take into account the various worlds, such as Carida, that might be considered “fortress worlds.” So to assume that all is equal across the board, even at best, would be so absurd as to be a step beyond fallacy.

For example, as he also cites, the Bakuran Defense Forces consisted of a single Carrack-class Cruiser, 6 Corellian Gunships, 3 Marauder-class Corvettes, 5 IR-3F patrol ships, 72 TIE fighters, and 5 TIE bombers. That might be what we can expect from a backwater colony like Bakura, but likely this is not identical to all other colonies. Indeed, in the Poln System of the Candoras Sector (the sector capitol no less) the only Imperial defense forces are four “antiquated” Dreadnought-class Heavy Cruisers and “some smaller ships.” (Choices of One) Clearly there is no cookie-cutter fit to all of the colonies, protectorates, and governorships that existed outside of the official member worlds of the Galactic Empire. And while Thelea stresses that he isn't trying to create a cookie-cutter image, he inevitably does so in trying to form his ultimate calculations.

I personally believe that the number of Torpedo Spheres is exaggerated. It says within the material that there were “at most” 2 Torpedo Spheres within a Torpedo Line, of which a Bombard Squadron was – at paper strength – supposed to have 6 Torp Spheres. Seeing as how most fleet actions were bent around pursuit of rebels and pirates and less about planetary sieges (especially after the end of the Clone Wars and the final stages of the Outer Rim Sieges in the early Imperial years), I am led by sheer military practicality to believe that the number of Torpedo Spheres that the Imperial Military possessed never numbered more than 10,000 at best. Whether some might have been mothballed or otherwise deployed in the roll of orbital stations (removing their mobile ability) is not stated anywhere, but in realistic military sense would make for a better explanation.

Now, for a galaxy-spanning government that has between 1.5 million member worlds, as well as sixty-nine million colonies, protectorates and puppet states (Essential Atlas), to as many as (according to the new Fantasy Flight Games “Edge of the Empire RPG Core Rulebook) “1.75 million planets [that] are fully represented and integrated into the Galactic Empire” this military seems small. That alone means that each individual ISD would be, in some aspect or another, responsible for protecting and policing 61 inhabited worlds. Even with the additional warships (cruisers, frigates, corvettes, and smaller) there would barely be 1.1 ship per planet. As such, I believe that these numbers give credence to the idea that the Imperial Starfleet is a type of “Coast Guard” or purely Self-Defense & Policing Force, whereas the Imperial Navy is the actual fighting crème-la-crème of the Imperial military and represents its offensive capability.

It is quite easy, considering the Galactic Empire’ size, political foundation, and strong economy that it could produce twice the number of estimated ISDs and bring about a total number of at least 50,000 ISDs – half used for Sector defense and police work, and half used for offensive and cross-sector-border pursuits.

Now, concerning Star Destroyers, we have to realize that the Galactic Empire built its military up from the already considerable size of the Grand Army of the Republic. It is a stone-cold fact that the Republic ordered and received over a thousand Acclamator-class Assault Ships (early prototype to the later wedge-shaped ships) and thousands of sub-classes to that design. They also built and received thousands of Venator-class Star Destroyers. In the movies and the Essential guides it is made clear that almost a thousand Venator-class SDs took part in the Battle of Coruscant where General Grevious made his bid to capture Palpatine – a thousand! All while the Republic was on the frontiers fighting with 20 “sector armies” that spanned across distances that can only be described as friggen' gargantuan, what we'd consider to be dozens of normal regional sectors. You could probably argue that these Republic Army Sectors were the inspiration for Tarkin's “special oversectors.” Otherwise, if you try to take it at face value, you get into the minimilization craze brought on by Karen Travis (let's not have that argument again, shall we?). So clearly, we have thousands, possible tens of thousands, of Acclamators, Venators and even the eventual rise of the Victory-class Star Destroyers, all ready for use by the Galactic Empire.

There is no indication by either the WEG, FFG, or Essential guides that the Imperial Military made a marked distinction between the various classes and subclasses of Star Destroyers. So when I say that there were at least 50,000 Star Destroyers, it's quite possible that a 5th of them are older models and such.


Long story short, of the 1,024 sectors in the Galactic Empire, there are an estimated 24,576 Star Destroyers, 98,304 torpedo spheres and 1,753,088 other warships, and 917,594 support ships within the Imperial Starfleet. (Coast Guard)

The Imperial Navy (offensive line) is another matter. Seeing as its late for me, I'll do those calculations tomorrow and make a second post. I've already explained my position in support of and opposition of Thelea's assessment and here with my own. It does not take into account the local defense forces and privately raised (non-Imperial) forces that planets that are aligned with the Galactic Empire, but left to their own defense issues, may or may not have. This is solely for the Imperial Starfleet and Navy.
Spoiler

-friggen hate this forums settings for edit-

I think the number of torpedo spheres is way too high, especially considering that when one is used it is able to take out a significant portion of a fleet and damage an SSD beyond repair, forcing said SSD to kamikaze itself against the torpedo sphere. If the number of torpedo spheres is so high then planetary shields become stupid investments anyway and there would be no need for the death star. IMO there is no way there are tens of thousands of torpedo spheres. Their number probably is way lower than that of SSDs.

Thanas wrote:I think the number of torpedo spheres is way too high, especially considering that when one is used it is able to take out a significant portion of a fleet and damage an SSD beyond repair, forcing said SSD to kamikaze itself against the torpedo sphere. If the number of torpedo spheres is so high then planetary shields become stupid investments anyway and there would be no need for the death star. IMO there is no way there are tens of thousands of torpedo spheres. Their number probably is way lower than that of SSDs.

I would agree. On the whole, I would think that there is between fifty to three-hundred torp spheres. But then that might only be in active Navy deployments and not any that are either mothballed, being built, being scrapped, etc. Any armed forces Order of Battle is going to have a smudge in the numbers and never be too clear on active and non-active variables, especially when it comes to budgetary concerns. In the case of the GE, I'd think that there are less of such concerns and there is therefore more leeway to believe that there are in fact 10,000 or less torpedo spheres. That would still leave 1 torp sphere for every 150 member worlds of the Galactic Empire -- not counting any necessary deployments to one of the sixty-nine million colonies, protectorates, or puppet states.

Even 10,000 would be but a drop in the ocean, and I would still agree that there were probably less than that. However I was giving it a bit more leeway in consideration for the size of the space that these forces are being deployed in.

That number is still way too high. It would mean that the Empire had no need of the DS, for why built it when you concentrate several dozen or so of spheres?

Thanas wrote:That number is still way too high. It would mean that the Empire had no need of the DS, for why built it when you concentrate several dozen or so of spheres?

There is a *big* difference between turning a planet to a broken - but possibly still inhabitable - wasteland and being able to completely destroy it into so many constituent pieces of tiny rock particles. Not to mention psychologically speaking.

Abacus wrote:There is a *big* difference between turning a planet to a broken - but possibly still inhabitable - wasteland and being able to completely destroy it into so many constituent pieces of tiny rock particles. Not to mention psychologically speaking.

Moreover, since a TS operated by using massive PT bombardment to force open a microseconds-long hole in the shield and target shield generators, they'd be useless against planets with multi-layered shields such as Coruscant and, presumably, Alderaan. The Death Star obviously had no such limitation.

There are numerous problems with the torpedo sphere concept- starting with being suicidally vulnerable to counterbattery and fighter attack and working down from there- but I really don't want to go over the tactical detail again; what I will suggest is that they are probably far from a unique idea, and there are almost certainly other classes of siege platform.

The layout in the Imperial Sourcebook is cookie cutter- it's the staff study. It's the official version. Ultimately, each sector should have a few of the things available- enough to crack open rebel held worlds and take punitive action, but until then, until reality matches the perfection of the paperwork- and there are only six built so far- existing siege platforms, of varying degrees of effectiveness, and many of them probably ex- Separatist, fill the role in the order of battle that should be held by the torpedo spheres.

(A Lucrehulk conversion would actually make a good place to start; they have the volume, the sensors, and rather fewer of the gaping vulnerabilities.)

Personally I don't reckon there is such a thing as the creme de la creme of the Imperial Starfleet; their doctrine is so restrictive, coercive, oppressive, based on bad metrics and so infested with the politics of the New Order that they make the old Soviet Navy look freewheeling and fun- loving by comparison.

Incidentally, if you go by the sourcebook, working down the order of battle of a sector group, you come out with twenty- four 'Line' star destroyers- ISD or variants thereof- and for each group, Eighty Victories, Venators, and other lighter ships in the destroyer class.

Abacus wrote:This article shall be based upon the work done here: http://www.daltonator.net/fanfics/essays/impfleet.txt by Commander Thelea.

First of all, let me just say that I admire the work that Commander Thelea did on his/her essay-article thing on the Imperial Fleet size...

Hers.

That said, this is not a rebuttal to Commander Thelea's work, but rather a correction and compliment to it. I believe that Thelea was right, to an extent, that most people are sadly underestimating just how large the Galactic Empire was and how mighty it's military equally was. Let's lay a little groundwork now...

Now just how big is the Galactic Empire? ...

So we have 1,024 regional sectors, each of which has its own Sector Fleet and Systems Forces (the distinction of which I will explain later)...

Ah, yes, the "estimate a sector fleet and multiply by a thousand" approach. The really tricky bit here is that there's no reason to assume all sectors have identical fleets, because they certainly don't have identical needs.

A sector in the galactic core, where most worlds can supply their own immediate patrol and customs need but also have heavy defenses, needs an Imperial sector fleet to act as a 'reserve' prepared either to heavily reinforce a single threatened world... or besiege a single rebellious world. Massive capital units are the order of the day for that. Battleships.

A sector on the rim, on the other hand, is spread over a much larger area, but has few concentrated, fortified worlds. There's less need for big heavy ships... but far more need for massive swarms of light patrol corvettes/frigates/whatever.

The battleship would be a needless, massive expense for the fringe sector. The thousands of corvettes would be a needless expense for a core sector because the cost can be outsourced to the local systems.

There is also no reason to believe, considering the EotH’s architect (ie Grand Admiral Thrawn), that its defenses would be organized on the same lines as the Galactic Empire’s own sector group fleet order of battle, this due to the fact that it is well recorded that Thrawn was continually given sub-par reinforcements and support from Palpatine – starting his venture with a single Imperial Star Destroyer!

On the other hand, cases like this where one or a few star destroyers were used to carry out major Imperial ventures are a big argument in favor of the minimalist side of the line.

If the Empire had, say, a hundred thousand star destroyers... it would be insane folly for Palpatine to say "here, take only one of these ships which are so numerous I have accountants to count the accountants who count them all, to subdue a huge region of poorly charted space."

Likewise it would be folly to put only a dozen or so star destroyers at Endor, and so on. And it would be hard to explain

While you may reject this argument as insufficiently mathy or something, it does bear consideration.

Further, there is the distinction within the WEG material between a Fleet and a System Force. It says clearly that a Fleet is “designated as a ‘sector resource,’ which means it should be available for action anywhere within the sector. A fleet is the smallest unit transferred between sectors. All fleets have a force technical service and force support under their command.” Not only does a Fleet have a different deployment mission but it also has a separate supply and support chain. That is a very clear and indisputable indication of the Imperial Starfleet and Imperial Navy being separate entities – to which System Forces are the building blocks of Starfleet and Fleets are the building blocks of the Imperial Navy.

This strikes me as very dubious. Since everyone's using the same equipment, having multiple parallel organizations is very inefficient.

It's one thing to have each planet spend its own money to maintain a system defense force (TIEs, customs patrol, light turbolaser batteries to repel casual raiders). That's advantageous because it means the Empire doesn't have to deploy penny-packet forces to each of thousands or millions of worlds that are quite capable of paying for their own defense.

It's another matter entirely for the Empire to have, in essence, two navies. Doesn't it make more sense to assume that 'System Forces' and 'Fleets' are simply collections of ships in the same organization with different roles? With the 'system force' being a unit assigned to guard a designated place, while a 'fleet' is a unit that is assigned to roam a volume of space?

I mean, to take an example, armored units move in 'squadrons' and infantry units move in 'companies,' but that doesn't mean that they're entirely different militaries with separate supply chains and command structures. It just means they have different names.

The reason I point out the specification for defining what a system force is, is because of the next sentence: a system force is organized along force pools, available resources categorized by general mission type. While they have a set organization on the OB, a commodore is expected to reform the constituent elements of a pool to tailor the detail to the mission.” Clearly this means that a systems admiral does not have the resources at all times to form every type of System Force (as will be detailed below) but rather he has the constituent parts to make up one or another such system force as the needs of his particular defense and patrol requirements are. His/Her total amount of ships should therefore be calculated as being thus: 3 Imperial Star Destroyers, 6 to 12 torpedo spheres...

WAIT A MINUTE.

How did you get two or four torpedo spheres per star destroyer? Torpedo spheres are larger and more exotic than star destroyers. Moreover, they are far more specialized- a torpedo sphere is useful only in the rare circumstance of an entire planet hunkering down beneath its shields and refusing to submit to conventional threats or bombardment. Star destroyers are useful all the time.

It would be very illogical for the Empire to build huge numbers of the things, even ignoring Eleventh Century Remnant's points about their weaknesses.

Sector Groups, of which Systems Forces are a constituent part, make up (according to WEG) at least 2,400 ships, 24 of which are Star Destroyers. If we know that each System Force will always contain 3 ISDs, then that means there are roughly 8 System Forces within a single sector...

On the other hand, this implies that the vast majority of Imperial systems don't have a 'system force,' which makes the name misleading.

If every system in the Empire had three star destroyers there'd be millions of the things... which, again, tends to contradict the actual plots of the movies and EU, which make star destroyers out to be a lot less numerous than star systems are.

In his/her calculations, Commander Thelea included Sector Fleets and System Forces together, which was I think his mistake.

Hers.

In the same way that various Moffs and Grand Moffs had their own personal squadrons that existed outside the normal Order of Battle, Darth Vader as the Commander in Chief of the Imperial Military had his own elite squadron as well. To try and postulate the size of the Imperial Navy based on a misinterpreation of Death Squadron's reason for existence and a single mention in a computer game (of which all such sources are discounted) is reckless to say the least. There is also the dubious figure he states that the Imperial Navy had 25,000 ISDs...but ONLY six – SIX – torpedo spheres. That big of a distribution between capitol ships and siege platforms, especially after he showed how many a Sector's System Forces were suppose to (on paper) maintain is just...it just don't make any sense.

She.

Also, remember that siege platforms are specialty items. There are not that many sieges going on in Imperial space at any one time, and at any given moment there may be NO sieges occurring within any given sector.

It makes far more sense to group anything with planet-busting capability (dreadnoughts that can knock down planetary shields by sustained turbolaser barrage, torpedo spheres, the Death Star) as "strategic forces" that are held as a separate reserve force, to be held in readiness and sent wherever in Imperial space they may be needed.

And this has the side effect of greatly reducing the total number of torpedo spheres required. Instead of building a thousand of the things, most of which are totally useless for lack of planets to besiege at any one time, you build five or ten of them which can be kept in more continuous use.

All while the Republic was on the frontiers fighting with 20 “sector armies” that spanned across distances that can only be described as friggen' gargantuan, what we'd consider to be dozens of normal regional sectors. You could probably argue that these Republic Army Sectors were the inspiration for Tarkin's “special oversectors.” Otherwise, if you try to take it at face value, you get into the minimilization craze brought on by Karen Travis (let's not have that argument again, shall we?). So clearly, we have thousands, possible tens of thousands, of Acclamators, Venators and even the eventual rise of the Victory-class Star Destroyers, all ready for use by the Galactic Empire

Point of order:

"Minimalism" as we know it goes back a long way. The original Thrawn trilogy, among the very oldest of the EU material, has it be a big deal that Thrawn has, say, five star destroyers. Finding the fabled Katana Fleet of two hundred ships (each of which is worth 1/3 to 1/6 of a star destroyer in a fight) is a big deal and presented as a huge, potentially war-winning advantage for whoever finds it first.

Moreover, ships are painfully slow whenever an explicit distance is referenced- five days to cover about two hundred light years is just silly, but it's in there and annoying little idiots have been making hay from it ever since.

Simon_Jester, you need to re-read what I wrote because most of the points you tried to make were already explained in detail. Also, I never knew the sex of Commander Thelea, so I tried to err on the side of caution in that regard, using "his/her" a lot. So conitnually pointing out that I didn't know really does'nt score you any extra brownie points here. (I'll address each of your arguments in detail later if you really want.)

ECR, again, if you read the paper composition of the Sector Groups and Fleets, they are suppose to have larger numbers. However, as I said in the OP and later, there is a good chance that such numbers were either scrapped, downgraded to orbital use, or otherwise disposed of to the point where there are, as it says in the sourcebook, only six active Torpedo Spheres. There is no indication that the Empire never built as many as its ORBAT claims. However, in light of the fact that by the point of 0 ABY the Empire had moved past its greatest period of conquest and was shifting nearly completely towards pacification, occupation, and patrol duties.

Concerning you Point of Order, Jester, I would remind you that the New Republic was facing more than just Thrawn on various fronts throughout the galaxy at the time. There is also the known evidence that Thrawn was virtually starved of resources by the various Warlords that he had convinced to support him, not to mention the various fleets that were being recalled to the Deep Core by the Emperor. But that argument is neither here nor there, as the conflict takes place after ROTJ and was not taken into consideration for this article.

re: 1,024 Sectors in the Empire.
First, that number is from the OR;
Second, the Empire expanded greatly once Palpatine was in charge. Since we are using the Imperial Source Book, the 'Empire has countless regions, which can contain from as few as three to upwards of thousands of sectors.' ISB, pg10. The last line on pg 111 says the Empire has thousands of Sector Groups at its command.

10,000 sectors is easily supportable, roughly 240,000 ISDs. There's a reference somewhere that the Imperial Navy has an additional 10% of the Sector Forces set aside as a Reserve, which is where I place the 25,000 ISDs line from Pallaeon. ETA found it "Additionally, a full ten percent of the entire Imperial Navy was kept in reserve in the Core Worlds, so as to be able to quickly respond to threats throughout the galaxy.[19] " http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Navy


'Systems Forces' are not deployed one to a system, in fact it takes a direct order from a Moff, Grand Moff, or the Emperor to allow more then one Squadron in a single system. A 'Systems Force' by itself is responsible for dozens of systems spanning hundreds of lightyears.

Bombard Fleets(w 48 torpedo spheres ea on paper) are only assigned to sectors that the 'Empire has determined the probability of repressing the Rebellion as less then half', so they would be a rare resource if in fact they actually built more then 6.

Each standard Sector Group contains 4 Superiority Fleets (each of which has 2 Force Superiority and 2 Force Escort 'systems fleets' for 8 ForSups and 8 ForEscorts) plus a DeepDock and Support Fleet. Bombard and Assault fleets are additional forces that can be assigned to the sector, but are not part of the standard units assigned to a sector.

The Old Republic typically garrisoned a full Sector with the same number of ships the ImpFleet has in a single squadron. (pg105)

All right, seeing as we're being pedantic about it, your basic premise is hopelessly wrong.

Starting from the bottom up, individual ships are formed into Lines, ranging from four to twenty depending on size- this is the lowest level of formation. Recognised types of Line include Attack, Heavy Attack, Battle (a single ISD constitutes a battle line, which is the reason I refer to them as line destroyers), Pursuit, Skirmish, Torpedo (hmph) and Troop.

Four (almost invariably) Lines from a Squadron, Light, Heavy, Battle, Troop or Bombard, precise composition varies.

This is where you screw up, getting hooked on one of two words. A Systems Force,. Which consists, looking closely, of four Squadrons. So busy with half the problem... Systems Forces are a layer in the command structure, no more. They are not outside or beside the structure at all, or part of some kind of alternate navy. They are a term in the series.

Fleets contain four Systems Forces- amazing that, isn't it? They are a layer of the command structure.

I don't propose to copy out huge chunks of the Sourcebook, such as exactly what goes exactly where- TL;DR-

but two additional points; the whole of it all is under the Emperor's command. That's what being the C-in-C of the entire galaxy gets you.

There is an entry for something called a 'Bombard line', which should have to do with the older siege/blockade platforms that the torpedo sphere is intended and destined to replace, if they ever actually make more than six of them.

How was my response in any way pedantic? If you mean that you were too lazy to read the OP fully, then that's on you -- not me. I decided to read and take Thelea's article at face value and give it the attention and critical analysis that it deserves. If you're going to simply cherry pick a few items from it that you don't agree with, then I don't need your comments. And no my basic premise is not hopelessly wrong. I analyzed the organization of all ships within a sector, Fleets and System Forces, and - based on the evidence I cited in the OP - determined that they are separate entities.

Anyway, moving on...for the full analysis of the Fleet composition and further explanation.

===========================

Superiority Fleets
Composed of two Force Superiority and two Force Escort groups.
6 Imperial Star Destroyers, 96 cruisers and/or frigates, 180 light cruisers and/or corvettes, 40 specially modified light recon cruisers, 160 corvettes.

Assault Fleets
Composed of two transport forces and two Force Escorts.
8 Evakmark-KDY transport vessels, 8 strike cruisers, 108 cruisers and/or frigates, 120 corvettes, 120 light cruisers, 48 specially modified light recon cruisers, 160 corvettes.

Bombard Fleets
Composed of two System Bombards and two Force Escorts.
80 light cruisers, 72 cruisers and/or frigates, 320 corvettes or smaller ships, 40 specially modified light recon cruisers, 24 Torpedo Spheres, 60 light cruisers and/or corvettes

Deepdock Fleet
This is a specialized support fleet with no basis of organization in the Systems ORBAT. However it does contain a single Force Escort for protecting its assets and an added two Force Technical Services.
280 support vessels, 2 deepdock complexes, 40 light cruisers, 24 cruisers and/or frigates, 80 corvettes, 16 specially modified light recon cruisers, 16 modified Evakmar-KDY Transport Vessels, 32 strike cruisers, 200+ extra support ships for the purposs of munitions, consumables, spare parts, equipment for the Technical Service ships, medical ships, and droid services.

Support Fleets
Organized around the idea of a system of ships for the creation of supply chains for ships and their constituent units.
125 corvettes or smaller patrol craft, 125 Field Secured Container Vessels, 250 various other craft for the purpose of general cargo transportation.
---------------------------------

Based on the idea that a Fleet should be capable of organizing and containing at least any of the Superiority, Assault, or Bombard Fleets (in addition to which it always maintains the Deepdock and Support Fleets), a standard Imperial Fleet has the following composition (on paper): 6 Imperial Star Destroyers, 108 cruisers and/or frigates, 100-160 light cruisers and/or corvettes, 160-300 corvettes, and 40-48 specially modified recon light cruisers. The added Deepdock and Support fleet assets, which would be determined as not being frontline services unless either transferred or actively being assaulted, would increase the number of light support units by an extra hundred or more.

This would, if the Imperial Navy is in fact the Fireman Brigade that I believe it to be based on the evidence, give the Imperial Navy a standing strength of 6,144 Imperial Star Destroyers (and I believe that these would indeed be Imperator-class and not any older designs), 110,592 cruisers and/or frigates, 163,840 light cruisers, 307,200 corvettes, and 49,152 specially modified light recon cruisers. (And just because I like to see people’s eyes bulge, it would also give the Imperial Navy a torpedo sphere paper strength of 24,576.)

Now, understand me clearly when I say that this would be the standard size of your average Fleet. It does not take into account increase sizes as a result of priority sector/oversector deployment, the predilections of various moffs and grand moffs that commanded them, or the fact that there were hundreds of Fleet units that had no regional deployments and were autonomous for all intents and purposes (Such as Vader’s Death Squadron). As such it is easy to believe that there are a further 18,856 Imperial Star Destroyers being deployed to various special deployments around the galaxy and for specific tasks at the order of the Emperor, his advisors, the Grand Admirals, or the Moffs and Grand Moffs. Based on the necessary support ships and craft in an attendant fleet, it would be fair to estimate the remaining Imperial Naval forces to have a further 75% increase in other ship sizes (cruisers, light cruisers, corvettes, etc) from the numbers stated above concerning the Sector Fleets.

Or, there is the even crazier idea that -- due to this calculation I have made in regards to the size of the Imperial Fleet's ISD compliment, that 6,144 ISDs + the 24,576 ISDs that all Sector Forces across the known galaxy posses, comes to 30,720 ISDs -- not far off from the 25,000 comment that was made by Captain Gilad Pellaeon.

==============

And, because people don't seem to read the OP clearly enough, I'll add an extra explanation to reinforce my theory concerning the difference between a "coast guard" Imperial Starfleet and a "fireman brigade/offensive" Imperial Navy.

First of all there is the chain of command. Just like how the US Navy has separate chains of command and resources from the US Coast Guard, so does the Imperial Navy have a separate chain of command and resources from the Imperial Systems Forces (hereafter referred to as Sector Forces, when taken as a whole). The commander of a System Force is "a systems admiral, also known as a commodore. A system force is responsible for several systems, the admiral being in charge of organizing and coordinating all of his ships throughout a sphere of command spanning hundreds of light years and dozens of worlds..." An Imperial Fleet within a given sector is commanded by an Fleet Admiral whose responsibilities were not dictated to guarding or policing "a sphere of command spanning hundreds of light years and dozens of worlds." Instead the Fleet and its commander were deployed throughout a Sector as needed to reinforce System Forces unable to protect their designated areas or deployed across sector lines at the command of a Grand Moff, Grand Admiral, Lord Vader, or the Emperor (or his duly appointed agents). Both the Imperial Fleet operating in a sector and the Sector Forces answered to the sector's High Admiral -- or Moff (to whom multiple titles and ranks were given depending upon which hat he was wearing for which situation). This enforces the idea that both the Sector Forces and, to a slightly lesser extent, the Imperial Fleets were under the political authority of the Emperor -- the man who personally appointed each and every Moff and Grand Moff. [The Coast Guard and Navy both answer to the President of the United States, so it's not that different.]

Secondly, from a military perspective in regards to supply and repair facilities [from which I draw my own personal experience as a former Lt. of an armored platoon in the US Army; 1st Company, 2nd Battalion, 69th Armored Regiment] it lends further credence to the two being separate entities. If the Sector Forces and the Imperial Fleet operating in their sector were in fact part of a single entity (they're both part of the Imperial Military, but are different organizations within that) then they would have a single supply and repair detachment and organization to support their efforts. However, as has been cited (Imperial Source Book, Second Edition), the Imperial Fleets have their own autonomous supply and support elements and the Sector Forces also have their own autonomous supply and support elements. To try and supply a single military formation from two different organizations is, to put it lightly, asking for trouble. It makes no sense militarily or logistically (and I have the Lean Six Sigma to back me up on this). The only reason to have two separate supply and repair organisms is because they are each attached to a separate organization that requires different operational needs. The Imperial Fleet, which is often deployed across sector lines and acts as a fire brigade against emergencies, requires strategically fluid reinforcement and repair facilities -- which is has in the form of its Deepdock Fleets and Support Fleets. The System Forces do not require the same services, being that they are attached to a large section of territory with its own attendant orbital facilities, their own ORBAT only reinforces this by giving necessary Technical Services that allow for short-term repair and supply abilities, this due to the fact that a System Force has dozens of planets to fall back upon for support.

The third point that I base my argument off of is common sense. Any government will require a police force and a military in order to govern its territory effectively. The Galactic Empire, for all its size, is no different in the basic requirements to enforcing and protecting itself. Two different services, acting with different deployment orders and missions, different supply and resource chains, and a separate chain of command...so simple even a cave man could do it.


In ending, I'd like to post this little picture taken from the Imperial Sourcebook Second Edition, which, to me, really sets the tone for just about anything we try to discuss on this issue. I took the spark from reading Thelea's article and decided to refine it to something that seemed far more suitable and believable, even if it is about a science fiction military that never gets its due in literature or on the silver screen.

Abacus wrote:Simon_Jester, you need to re-read what I wrote because most of the points you tried to make were already explained in detail. Also, I never knew the sex of Commander Thelea, so I tried to err on the side of caution in that regard, using "his/her" a lot. So conitnually pointing out that I didn't know really does'nt score you any extra brownie points here. (I'll address each of your arguments in detail later if you really want.)

I'm sorry; she's a friend of mine, even if I was not acquainted with her in those days. I apologize for having given offense by correcting you repeatedly.

I am curious about the unmentioned respects in which you feel you already addressed my point; would you mind summarizing?

Concerning you Point of Order, Jester, I would remind you that the New Republic was facing more than just Thrawn on various fronts throughout the galaxy at the time. There is also the known evidence that Thrawn was virtually starved of resources by the various Warlords that he had convinced to support him, not to mention the various fleets that were being recalled to the Deep Core by the Emperor. But that argument is neither here nor there, as the conflict takes place after ROTJ and was not taken into consideration for this article.

Well, if we start from the working assumption that the Imperials had many tens of thousands of star destroyers and heavier units before Return of the Jedi and the death of the Emperor... the question is, how were so many of them destroyed so quickly?

Which would be interesting to speculate on in its own right. Were the civil wars that took place in the five years after Endor that apocalyptic and brutal, that something like a hundred thousand heavy starships existed at the beginning... but so few survived five years later that finding abandoned ships equivalent to at most a few dozen star destroyers was a big deal?

I'm not so much trying to assert that the Empire did or did not have X ships here... but we have multiple kinds of evidence and it's worth putting some real effort into seeing how they can be made consistent with one another.



What I'm doing here is more or less what scientists and historians do every day. If you look at the primary source material (so to speak), do some multiplication, and say "The Empire had X ships at time Y!" then people have a number of reasons they might question you.

One is "I disagree with the way you did your math," which you're probably well prepared to handle... but that is not the only reason they might disagree.

Because you see, when we use mathematics to make a prediction or statement about the world, it is not enough to say "the math is right, therefore the statement is right." We must also look at second-order consequences: if this statement is true, then logically what other things should be true as well?

Suppose you use certain assumptions to calculate that P is true.

If P is true, then we expect Q and R to be true. If we see Q and R, that is supporting evidence for P. Conversely, if we see S, and S is what we'd expect if P were false, then that is evidence undermining the idea of P being true.

And we must think about all this, weigh Q and R and S together, before drawing a firm conclusion about P. Then and only then can we back up and say "the method used to calculate result P is sound."

Your problem is that you spent a lot of time calculating, but seem averse to stopping and thinking "wait, does this make sense?"

Abacus wrote:How was my response in any way pedantic?

you wrote:ECR, again, if you read the paper composition of the Sector Groups and Fleets, they are suppose to have larger numbers.

The pedantic bit here seems to be that you're so caught up in saying "this is the paper composition of the sector units and fleets" and doing multiplication problems that you're not taking time to ask what the organization of the Starfleet would have to look like on the practical level, whether or not your own conclusions make sense.

Which is the way you really give an analysis like Thelea's the attention it deserves. You don't just squirt out a massive cloud of post the way a squid does with ink and hide behind it.

And no my basic premise is not hopelessly wrong. I analyzed the organization of all ships within a sector, Fleets and System Forces, and - based on the evidence I cited in the OP - determined that they are separate entities.

And, because people don't seem to read the OP clearly enough, I'll add an extra explanation to reinforce my theory concerning the difference between a "coast guard" Imperial Starfleet and a "fireman brigade/offensive" Imperial Navy.

First of all there is the chain of command. Just like how the US Navy has separate chains of command and resources from the US Coast Guard, so does the Imperial Navy have a separate chain of command and resources from the Imperial Systems Forces (hereafter referred to as Sector Forces, when taken as a whole). The commander of a System Force is "a systems admiral, also known as a commodore. A system force is responsible for several systems, the admiral being in charge of organizing and coordinating all of his ships throughout a sphere of command spanning hundreds of light years and dozens of worlds..." An Imperial Fleet within a given sector is commanded by an Fleet Admiral whose responsibilities were not dictated to guarding or policing "a sphere of command spanning hundreds of light years and dozens of worlds."

How would that be mutually exclusive with the idea that the "Systems Forces" are themselves part of a larger "Fleet" structure?

I really do think you're making the same kind of mistake as... how do I put this.

Imagine a man who knows that "infantry platoons" are commanded by "lieutenants" and "infantry regiments" are commanded by "colonels." He knows there's a rank called 'lieutenant colonel' that must logically mean holding both titles ( ). Therefore he assumes that the 'platoons' are part of a completely different command structure than the 'regiments.'

Not a sensible thing to do, especially when there is no outside evidence for this, beyond his own surmise based purely on his own understanding of the terminology.

Secondly, from a military perspective in regards to supply and repair facilities [from which I draw my own personal experience as a former Lt. of an armored platoon in the US Army; 1st Company, 2nd Battalion, 69th Armored Regiment] it lends further credence to the two being separate entities. If the Sector Forces and the Imperial Fleet operating in their sector were in fact part of a single entity (they're both part of the Imperial Military, but are different organizations within that) then they would have a single supply and repair detachment and organization to support their efforts. However, as has been cited (Imperial Source Book, Second Edition), the Imperial Fleets have their own autonomous supply and support elements and the Sector Forces also have their own autonomous supply and support elements.

Is it not equally logical to suppose that the mobile 'fleet' commands, with no fixed base of operations, have their own organic support assets to make sure they are always well supplied... while for forces with a small fixed area of responsibility, the support assets are simply attached to that fixed area?

I mean, think about this: an armored brigade may have some artillery attached to it, at the brigade level if not the regimental level. Then there can be additional artillery assets attached at the division and corps levels. Likewise (to varying extents) for support units, mobile workshops, and so on.

The support assets attached to higher echelons are there to ensure that additional support can be made available as needed- it's part of the corps/division/brigade reserve, in effect.

So it makes no sense to say "this regiment has support assets in its table of organization, and this division has assigned support assets in its table of organization, therefore they must be totally different units in different chains of command."

The third point that I base my argument off of is common sense. Any government will require a police force and a military in order to govern its territory effectively. The Galactic Empire, for all its size, is no different in the basic requirements to enforcing and protecting itself. Two different services, acting with different deployment orders and missions, different supply and resource chains, and a separate chain of command...so simple even a cave man could do it.

It is far from apparent that it requires two separate organizations, each with heavy warships.

By contrast, police and military forces in real life do not have similar equipment except in that both usually carry some sort of firearm.

It makes far more sense to suppose that the heavy warships of the Empire are concentrated under one chain of command that is responsible for knowing how to support and operate them efficiently. The customs, policing, and patrol responsibilities might be farmed out to a secondary organization, but it would be equipped for that role, not given equipment functionally identical to that of the 'real' space fleet.

Well, if we start from the working assumption that the Imperials had many tens of thousands of star destroyers and heavier units before Return of the Jedi and the death of the Emperor... the question is, how were so many of them destroyed so quickly?

Which would be interesting to speculate on in its own right. Were the civil wars that took place in the five years after Endor that apocalyptic and brutal, that something like a hundred thousand heavy starships existed at the beginning... but so few survived five years later that finding abandoned ships equivalent to at most a few dozen star destroyers was a big deal?

The thing is, none of the characters in the EU, to my recollection at least, ever make any comment to that effect. There's no evidence of such severe losses prior to Endor (and if there were, the Empire would probably be having a much rougher time of it than we are lead to believe), and if it happened afterward you'd think Rebel/NR military leaders would remark on the Imperial fleet being reduced to a fraction of a percent of its former strength. "Thank god those Imperial warlords are tearing each other apart so effectively. Otherwise, we'd be so completely fucked that it defies comprehension."

That, ultimately, is probably my biggest problem with maximalist interpretations of Galactic military strength. None of our "primary sources" corroborate these huge numbers, however plausible they might be when discussing a galaxy-spanning civilization. And when your calculations say the Empire has a hundred thousand ISDs and and the Supreme Commander of the New Republic fleet says they've got a hundred (or at the very least acts like they've got a hundred), you should probably contemplate the possibility that you're missing something important. And I'm not really sure it's possible to reconcile the figures. E.g. the Katana fleet. The contortions you have to go through to justify why two hundred obsolete warships are going to turn the tide of a war involving tens of thousands of capital ships, any one of which is worth several dreadnoughts-class cruisers, is pretty impressive. Even if you postulate a perfect stalemate, a) the addition of 200 obsolete cruisers might tip the scales, but not catastrophically, b) I find it hard to believe that the NR and the GE would find it more practical to hunt ghost ships rather than pursue an alternative source for warships*, c) no one ever implies that Thrawn is just a tiny slice of the threat they're facing (we know they are facing other warlords, but not such that Thrawn is just one concern among many).

My brain glazed over facing Abacus' long post; I have no idea what it said.

Much of the destruction by civil war of the Empire's military machine is to be found in the much maligned EU source Dark Empire, believe it or not, that's the one with the illustrations of broken starships and armies of war walkers facing each other, the burning skyscrapers of Coruscant, the handful of surviving large capital ships being hoarded over Byss, the dialogue confirming five hard, bloody years. Thrawn confirms it indirectly.

Dark Empire gets a lot of stick for a plot that seems to undermine the movies, makes a nonsense of Anakin's conversion in fact, and well, yes, this is true, but the execution isn't too shabby- a bad idea done quite well.

I was actually looking forward to playing in fanfic with this period, although it seems likely that by the time (if) I get round to it Disney will have destroyed all the base assumptions. Hmph.

I think some sort of massively-destructive period of Imperial civil war will have to stay in, because otherwise there's simply no way the Rebels could have taken over the galaxy. Their forces at Endor are supposed to have been most of their capital ships, if I remember correctly, and they were outnumbered and outgunned even by the Imperial forces there, let alone the ones in the rest of the Empire. If the Rebels could muster, say, a force equivalent to a sector fleet and keep it intact and loyal throughout the civil war, while Imperial sectors faced defections, rebellion, and wars with neighboring sectors, they'd have a reasonable chance of beating the exhausted remnants a few years down the road.

You're assuming that the Empire is defeated militarily - with Palpatine dead, whatever constitutes the Imperial government might simply invite Mon Mothma to replace him, leading to either a) her abdication and a restored republic or b) a constitutional monarchy.

Or it might simply split up along the seams since everyone is sick and tired of having a centralized government blowing their planet up. And we might see a complete disillusion of the system where the galaxy is split between various regional empires centered around important core worlds, various warlords trying to reclaim the galaxy in the name of the Empire, the rebels trying to unify it all under some sort of republic and an imperial government on Corosant playing a nominal government to the lot.

Captain Seafort wrote:You're assuming that the Empire is defeated militarily - with Palpatine dead, whatever constitutes the Imperial government might simply invite Mon Mothma to replace him, leading to either a) her abdication and a restored republic or b) a constitutional monarchy.

Well, yes, but that would require not just a reboot but an fundamental re-thinking of the entire post-ROTJ period. Which would be fine; might even make more sense, but I don't think it'll happen. Remember that the Rebels are just that - rebels; we saw the part in ROTS when the elected government created Palpatine Emperor legally and voluntarily, so I'd be surprised if the government would voluntarily turn itself over to what it's been portraying as traitors and criminals. The Galactic Civil War wasn't the sort of dynastic affair where you might see that happening organically.

Eleventh Century Remnant wrote:I was actually looking forward to playing in fanfic with this period, although it seems likely that by the time (if) I get round to it Disney will have destroyed all the base assumptions. Hmph.

I say ignore Disney and go with "the way the EU was;" it's a sound standalone universe and the intellectual exercise of playing in it is worthy enough.

Esquire wrote:I think some sort of massively-destructive period of Imperial civil war will have to stay in, because otherwise there's simply no way the Rebels could have taken over the galaxy.

Absolutely, even with every possible advantage the Rebels couldn't have won otherwise.

Also, from the critic's point of view, the lack of such a civil war post-Endor would tend to make the actions at Endor meaningless in an artistic sense- if killing the Emperor doesn't mean the eventual dissolution and collapse of the Empire, why bother?

But while there is plenty of canon support for the idea that the Imperial forces were massively ground down (decimated, then decimated again, and again...) by the civil war, it beggars the imagination that they somehow managed to wipe out 99.9% of the old Imperial military in a five year conflict. It's possible to get attrition levels that high, but only in forces where every single unit is being brutally hurled into intense, continuous action and replaced so that enough strength remains to carry on the offensive later.

Here, with effectively no replacement of destroyed forces, you'd expect the warlords to at least try to stop losing ships and men before they ran so low that they were unable to function as warlords. They wouldn't fight until only one ship in a thousand remained.

Captain Seafort wrote:You're assuming that the Empire is defeated militarily - with Palpatine dead, whatever constitutes the Imperial government might simply invite Mon Mothma to replace him, leading to either a) her abdication and a restored republic or b) a constitutional monarchy.

The EU says that the Rebels had a long, hard struggle to overcome Imperial remnant forces, not a rapid imperial capitulation; we might get a new movie canon saying otherwise but I wouldn't bet on it.

For one thing, the Empire has no real reason to surrender just because Palpatine is dead. Even a small fragment of the Imperial strength is still far more power than the Rebels can muster, after all- so anyone who can even flatter themselves into thinking they're a valid successor to Palpatine will be reluctant to accept Rebel leadership.

Simon, I think you're making an assumption with regards tot he damage suffered between Endor and THrawn's return. Thrawn having so few ships available doesn't mean all the other thousands were destroyed, simply that they weren't available to him. Since we know from later EU works that the major warlords didn't join his cause, it is likely that a considerably larger body of ships remained, but divided up amongst Terradoc, Harsk, Delvardus etc. and that they were all waiting to see if Thrawn woudl succeed before joining.

Indeed, there is even mention of this in X-Wing: Isard's Revenge. The minor warlord Krennel didn't send ships to help Thrawn (despite commanding a dozen or more Star Destroyers) but send moeny and supplies instead as a way of hedging his bets.

Simon_Jester wrote:

Captain Seafort wrote:You're assuming that the Empire is defeated militarily - with Palpatine dead, whatever constitutes the Imperial government might simply invite Mon Mothma to replace him, leading to either a) her abdication and a restored republic or b) a constitutional monarchy.

The EU says that the Rebels had a long, hard struggle to overcome Imperial remnant forces, not a rapid imperial capitulation; we might get a new movie canon saying otherwise but I wouldn't bet on it.

I know what the EU says, and I think it's entirely reasonable scenario. My point is that, as of a couple of months ago, the most recent canon is the scenes of galaxy-wide celebration at the end of RotJ. The backstory for the new film might be a decades-long rebel campaign after Endor, but it might be one of the civil war ending there and then.

For one thing, the Empire has no real reason to surrender just because Palpatine is dead. Even a small fragment of the Imperial strength is still far more power than the Rebels can muster, after all- so anyone who can even flatter themselves into thinking they're a valid successor to Palpatine will be reluctant to accept Rebel leadership.

Or the reaction to Endor might be one of relief that Palpatine and Vader are gone, and whoever's left holding the reins immediately opens negotiations with Mothma because that's what the Imperial civil service has been advocating for years. The entire political structure of the Empire - Pestage, Isard, the warlords, Palpatine's design that it collapse without him, the institutionalised racism, the enslavement of the Mon Cals and Wookies, is all a product of the EU. There's a blank slate to play with, and literally anything is possible.

Given how manipulative and cunning Palpatine was, I can easily see it that the entire Imperial command structure is based on fear of Palpatine and Vader. Remove them and some of their top commanders at Endor, and the next in line could would be free to declare peace and lift some of the oppressions that had been placed by the Emperor over the last 20 years.

Captain Seafort wrote:I know what the EU says, and I think it's entirely reasonable scenario. My point is that, as of a couple of months ago, the most recent canon is the scenes of galaxy-wide celebration at the end of RotJ. The backstory for the new film might be a decades-long rebel campaign after Endor, but it might be one of the civil war ending there and then.

Another thing that is cannon is that as per ANH the Emperor dissolved the imperial senate and gave direct control to regional commanders. And this gives us a patchwork of instant warlords if the central government and its top brass of officers are all dead.